• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Marvel's No Good, Very Bad New York Comic Con

L

LordOfLore

Banned
Link.

As always after a large convention, there are arguments to be had about who was a winner or loser of the event.

Was the combination of a panel and trailer for Pacific Rim: Uprising enough to overcome the buzz for Justice League's latest trailer? Was DC's Doomsday Clock preview the comic book breakout of the show? One thing, however, had achieved mass consensus by the end of New York Comic Con: Marvel had a bad weekend.

By all rights, this really shouldn't have been the case; audiences are excited for November's Thor: Ragnarok, and the company's publishing division is in the midst of rolling out Marvel Legacy, a much-hyped promotion that will see new storylines begin across its entire superhero comic line, beginning with Marvel Legacy No. 1, released two weeks ago and already the most highly-ordered comic book release of the year. With New York the hometown of Marvel's comic book division — and the birthplace of the company as a whole — it would have been easy to believe NYCC would be a victory lap for the company.

The reality turned out to be something very different. Marvel and Netflix canceled a panel promoting its upcoming series The Punisher due to sensitivity issues following the previous weekend's shooting in Las Vegas, a move that was seen as disappointing to fans, though also one that made sense. (In a case of mixed messaging, the company did promote its Punisher comic book.)

The cancelation was swiftly followed by comic book retailer complaints over the quality of the expensive lenticular cover editions of the initial Marvel Legacy releases; pushed heavily to comic store owners ahead of release by Marvel, it was apparent upon delivery that the images didn't work as described, with the two images overlapping and mixing, rather than switching between original and new artwork as advertised.

On the first day of the convention, relationships between retailers and Marvel continued to sour, with a closed-door meeting reportedly becoming "heated", with store owners going further than complaining about the lenticular covers and instead addressing the trend over the last couple of years to replace familiar versions of characters with more diverse incarnations, which itself turned into a discussion over whether or not diversity in superhero comics "works." According to multiple sources, the meeting ended without resolving the tension between Marvel reps and retailers, with the discussion continuing loudly outside the meeting room.

During the convention, Marvel declined to comment on the meeting, but a source inside the company who declined to be named told The Hollywood Reporter that reports of tension were overstated despite the existence of video of the meeting taken by those present that contradicts that claim.

While news of the meeting spread across the convention, the company had to deal with another self-inflicted wound: a partnership with Northrop Grumman was cancelled 16 hours after its initial announcement, and 14 hours before it was due to be officially unveiled at the convention. The partnership itself apparently came as a surprise to many people working at Marvel, with THR being told by multiple sources that a number of creators had privately expressed unhappiness to the company when it was announced, including threats of resignation.

Additionally, Marvel Chief Creative Officer Joe Quesada told the audience at one panel during weekend that he, too, had no prior knowledge of the deal with the defense contractor. "I'll be honest with you, I saw it for the first time [same] as you guys," he said during the Sunday Cup O'Joe panel, adding with some understatement, "I think there were some messaging issues."

For its part, Marvel is officially downplaying the idea that its NYCC was anything but a success. There were some victories, undoubtedly; the debut of Hulu's adaptation Runaways was one of the talks of the show floor, and a partnership with the Weeknd to produce a Starboy comic book, inspired by his album of the same name. (No one tell Marvel that DC has owned a character of that name since 1961's Adventure Comics No. 282.) But, overall...? Things could have been better.

Perhaps the best example of how NYCC ultimately shaped up for Marvel might be this, however: probably the biggest Marvel-related new comic book announcement of the convention was that, three years after the release of the animated movie, there will finally be a new Big Hero 6 comic book series. However, despite the property being owned by Marvel, the new series will be published under license from Disney by competitor IDW Publishing.

Thor: Ragnarok can't come soon enough, if only to wash away the current woes even temporarily.
Click to expand...

Marvel almost lost Ms. Marvel's writer among others.
 
B

BoogieWoogie

Banned
On top of everything else, Marvel was just plain boring.

That D23 conference has neutered them for other cons.

Also, if Joe Quesada didn't know about the Northrop Grumman thing, could he say what exactly he does over there?
 
J

Jarmel

Banned
On the first day of the convention, relationships between retailers and Marvel continued to sour, with a closed-door meeting reportedly becoming "heated", with store owners going further than complaining about the lenticular covers and instead addressing the trend over the last couple of years to replace familiar versions of characters with more diverse incarnations, which itself turned into a discussion over whether or not diversity in superhero comics "works." According to multiple sources, the meeting ended without resolving the tension between Marvel reps and retailers, with the discussion continuing loudly outside the meeting room.
Click to expand...
It's disgusting that there even has to be an argument about whether diversity 'works'.
 
D

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
While news of the meeting spread across the convention, the company had to deal with another self-inflicted wound: a partnership with Northrop Grumman was cancelled 16 hours after its initial announcement, and 14 hours before it was due to be officially unveiled at the convention. The partnership itself apparently came as a surprise to many people working at Marvel, with THR being told by multiple sources that a number of creators had privately expressed unhappiness to the company when it was announced, including threats of resignation.

Additionally, Marvel Chief Creative Officer Joe Quesada told the audience at one panel during weekend that he, too, had no prior knowledge of the deal with the defense contractor. "I’ll be honest with you, I saw it for the first time [same] as you guys," he said during the Sunday Cup O'Joe panel, adding with some understatement, "I think there were some messaging issues."
Click to expand...
Wasn't there going to be some formal unveiling at the convention that he was at? How could he not know about it?
 
G

Grexeno

Member
On the first day of the convention, relationships between retailers and Marvel continued to sour, with a closed-door meeting reportedly becoming "heated", with store owners going further than complaining about the lenticular covers and instead addressing the trend over the last couple of years to replace familiar versions of characters with more diverse incarnations, which itself turned into a discussion over whether or not diversity in superhero comics "works." According to multiple sources, the meeting ended without resolving the tension between Marvel reps and retailers, with the discussion continuing loudly outside the meeting room.
Click to expand...

Fuck the retailers too.
 
Z

Zen_Arcade

Banned
Dan said:
Wasn't there going to be some formal unveiling at the convention that he was at? How could he not know about it?
Click to expand...
He works with comic book artists and writers. I don't think he's aware of every partnership the company is involved with.
 
S

Sandfox

Member
Lagamorph said:
I think the argument is more about "does it sell" which is what retailers are going to be most concerned about.
Click to expand...

That retailer apparently started yelling out stuff like "homo" and "freaking females" while complaining about Iceman kissing men so...
 
J

Jorok Goldblade

Member
Lagamorph said:
I think the argument is more about "does it sell" which is what retailers are going to be most concerned about.
Click to expand...


It does, but the core comic audience has made comic stores so toxic to the new readers that these books do bring in that they get their comics digitally or in trades through Amazon and book stores rather than set foot in the Cave of Mansplainers.
 
Z

Zen_Arcade

Banned
LordOfLore said:
Marvel writers and artists did the book.
Click to expand...
My bad. I didn't know that there was an actual book. I thought it was just advertising and an event held at the Con. It would be strange for him to not know if there was an actual comic planned.
Sandfox said:
Quesada actually said that a different department handles "custom" books like that.
Click to expand...
Unless this is true. Then it would make sense that he didn't know. I guess that would make sense. There's probably a whole marketing division that deals with advertisment comic books.
 
T

theaface

Member
On the first day of the convention, relationships between retailers and Marvel continued to sour, with a closed-door meeting reportedly becoming "heated", with store owners going further than complaining about the lenticular covers and instead addressing the trend over the last couple of years to replace familiar versions of characters with more diverse incarnations, which itself turned into a discussion over whether or not diversity in superhero comics "works."
Click to expand...

Disturbing. And the content owner/creator is entitled to make whatever product they want. I'm sure they'll be paying just as much attention to sales as the retailers are, so they don't need to be told what they should and shouldn't do. Retailers should be permitted to comment on what they observe, but it's ultimately not their call what the product is. Their purview is to decide what they stock, how much of it and how its merchandised.
 
T

timberger

Member
there will finally be a new Big Hero 6 comic book series. However, despite the property being owned by Marvel, the new series will be published under license from Disney by competitor IDW Publishing.
Click to expand...

This is hilarious.
 
A

Aurean_Mentat

Member
Here's the thing: Diversity does work. But it is not a replacement for good storytelling.

Jessica Cruz and Simon Baz (two new Green Lanterns) have been received incredibly well. If someone wanted to keep up with Hal Jordan, there's a title for that too. Simon Baz and Jessica Cruz have a title, Hal Jordan and co. have a title. Literally everyone wins.

The problem is that instead of launching titles alongside, Marvel is just replacing their entire lineup. A problem that was mentioned at that conference is that people go into a comic book shop having seen, let's say, the latest Avengers movie with the classic lineup. Or Thor. When they then go into the comic book shop because the movie piqued their interest in the character, there's no title to be found. There's female Thor, and around a half-dozen adventure titles.

Marvel is throwing out their old stuff for the new stuff, and the problem is that the people who liked and bought the old stuff left, and the people who go nuts on twitter and tumblr about how Thor is now a chick, Hulk is asian, etc, don't buy comics. They might buy an issue or two, but they don't develop into an audience, who seems to move onto the next thing that is absolutely wrong for this day and age and needs to be changed (seem to be video games).

Keep your old heroes around, or have there be a few storylines introducing the next generation. At some point, have them one at a time move on, or retire. That could lead to some interesting storytelling. Instead, Marvel has changed out their roster at once, and we aren't even going into their addiction to events and relaunches.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Aurean_Mentat said:
Here's the thing: Diversity does work. But it is not a replacement for good storytelling.

Jessica Cruz and Simon Baz (two new Green Lanterns) have been received incredibly well. If someone wanted to keep up with Hal Jordan, there's a title for that too. Simon Baz and Jessica Cruz have a title, Hal Jordan and co. have a title. Literally everyone wins.

The problem is that instead of launching titles alongside, Marvel is just replacing their entire lineup. A problem that was mentioned at that conference is that people go into a comic book shop having seen, let's say, the latest Avengers movie with the classic lineup. Or Thor. When they then go into the comic book shop because the movie piqued their interest in the character, there's no title to be found. There's female Thor, and around a half-dozen adventure titles.

Marvel is throwing out their old stuff for the new stuff, and the problem is that the people who liked and bought the old stuff left, and the people who go nuts on twitter and tumblr about how Thor is now a chick, Hulk is asian, etc, don't buy comics. They might buy an issue or two, but they don't develop into an audience, who seems to move onto the next thing that is absolutely wrong for this day and age and needs to be changed (seem to be video games).

Keep your old heroes around, or have there be a few storylines introducing the next generation. At some point, have them one at a time move on, or retire. That could lead to some interesting storytelling. Instead, Marvel has changed out their roster at once, and we aren't even going into their addiction to events and relaunches.
Click to expand...
They did it perfectly with Captain Marvel/Ms. Marvel and then completely ignored all the lessons from that.
 
F

Finaj

Member
The biggest success stories of Marvel's push for new characters (IMO) are Kamala Khan and Miss Marvel. Unfortunately, when you create something new, not all of them are winners. There are some less successful ones that I think are interesting though (Moon Girl, for example).
 
A

antonz

Member
I suspect Punisher was intended to be the big event at Comic Con and that being pushed due to the Vegas Shooting took a lot of steam out of their plans.

Then again expecting bombs to drop at every comic con is a problem in and of itself especially when you have a very active movie cycle. They are not going to start hyping movies up heavy that come out later than the one coming next month.

As for diversity the way marvel handles it is complete shit. You do not need to retire your popular heroes in order to create new ones. That is the whole point of self contained Comic Books. They tell tales regarding their specific character. Steve Rogers can keep adventuring in Steve Rogers Comics while Falcon Cap or Winter Soldier Cap do their own things in their books too.
 
O

Ondor

Banned
Here's my problem with Marvel comics. When they restarted their universe, I jumped in, because it was an easy starting point and their diverse cast of characters was appealing. I picked up Miles Spidey, Wolverine, Black Panther, Doctor Strange, and a couple others. I was excited to follow these characters' lives. But there were so many events, so many other comics using those characters, and so much rebranding back to #1 issues after I picked up a #1 issue od the same series a year earlier, it just felt like marvel was making it impossible for me to go on a journey with them. Couple this with the fact that they half-assed the passing of the mantle like replacing Logan with Laura but also having Logan kicking around or having Tony be replaced by Riri and Doom or Captain America being Sam but then Steve being Cap again. They lost me not because of diversity but because their approach was confusing as fuck, their messaging was inconsistent, and they made it impossible for me to connect to their characters.

Not saying that's why retailers aren't selling well but that is why my retailer isn't selling to me. Regardless, fuck their anti-diversity argument.
 
S

Secret Character

Member
I honestly stopped buying Marvel books 6 months after Secret Wars ended. Nothing was interesting, nothing seemed fresh, and the only book that (I felt) meant anything was Ultimates.

DC has been killing it, but everything Marvel is losing it's touch when it comes to crafting stories that I want to read.
 
L

LordOfLore

Banned
Marvel's one actual new book that was announced was a Hulkverine ongoing. This was their first con after Legacy #1 released so people expected actual news on their plans or books.

weapon-h-mike-deodatozykvk.jpg
Click to expand...
 
M

MHWilliams

Member
By all rights, this really shouldn't have been the case; audiences are excited for November's Thor: Ragnarok, and the company's publishing division is in the midst of rolling out Marvel Legacy, a much-hyped promotion that will see new storylines begin across its entire superhero comic line, beginning with Marvel Legacy No. 1, released two weeks ago and already the most highly-ordered comic book release of the year. With New York the hometown of Marvel's comic book division — and the birthplace of the company as a whole — it would have been easy to believe NYCC would be a victory lap for the company.
Click to expand...

In no reality was NYCC going to be a victory lap for Marvel.
 
A

Alienous

Member
Jarmel said:
It's disgusting that there even has to be an argument about whether diversity 'works'.
Click to expand...

Given how Marvel have been handling it I can see how certain retailers would come to the conclusion that diversity doesn't work. They're wrong, but they're basing that opinion on Marvel's botched attempt. Marvel just tried to do it too quickly. For the longest time I've found it bizarre that they'd forfeit intrigue the MCU movies have generated in the characters by pushing new faces in those roles instead. Recently they've killed
Bruce Banner
and
Black Widow
, and replaced characters like Tony Stark with newer characters in mainline books. At that point it has nothing to do with diversity, but a lack of familiarity. Old fans hate these characters, new fans want the MCU characters, sales tank.

DC, on the other hand, have been doing a better job. Introducing new, more diverse characters (such as two Green Lanterns) as part of a team (Justice League, Teen Titans, Deathstroke's team) with characters people know and love. You have to give these characters time to grow into fan favourites, like Marvel did with Miles Morales, before having them supersede mainstays like Superman or The Flash.

theaface said:
Disturbing. And the content owner/creator is entitled to make whatever product they want. I'm sure they'll be paying just as much attention to sales as the retailers are, so they don't need to be told what they should and shouldn't do. Retailers should be permitted to comment on what they observe, but it's ultimately not their call what the product is. Their purview is to decide what they stock, how much of it and how its merchandised.
Click to expand...

Retailers don't have as much of a margin for error as Marvel Comics do. Whilst Marvel may be too big to fail comic book stores are an endangered business, and doubly so if Marvel comics are selling below expectations.
 
B

Boke1879

Member
antonz said:
I suspect Punisher was intended to be the big event at Comic Con and that being pushed due to the Vegas Shooting took a lot of steam out of their plans.

Then again expecting bombs to drop at every comic con is a problem in and of itself especially when you have a very active movie cycle. They are not going to start hyping movies up heavy that come out later than the one coming next month.

As for diversity the way marvel handles it is complete shit. You do not need to retire your popular heroes in order to create new ones. That is the whole point of self contained Comic Books. They tell tales regarding their specific character. Steve Rogers can keep adventuring in Steve Rogers Comics while Falcon Cap or Winter Soldier Cap do their own things in their books too.
Click to expand...

I think like a lot of people said. They were just plain boring. No this isn't "Marvel is doomed" but none of what is reported is a good look.
 
N

NotTheGuyYouKill

Member
Their big center piece for NYCC was probably Punisher and after the Vegas shooting and the optics, they couldn't do much else.

Those comic retailers sure are classy tho
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
MHWilliams said:
In no reality was NYCC going to be a victory lap for Marvel.
Click to expand...

Unless they by some miracle announced that Hickman was now EIC and had total creative control of the entire universe.

Yeah, Marvel has never and likely will never be able to "fix" comics side enough to take "victory laps" after cons.
 
Duane Cunningham

Duane Cunningham

Member
The idea of people going to buy a comic based on having seen the movie, then being baffled/repulsed by the unfamiliar characters is kind of bullshit anyway for a couple of reasons:

1. Female Thor isn't just "some chick" who became Thor... It's Jane. Anyone who wants to read Thor due to the movies knows who Jane is. And it says on the first page of every issue that it's her. I would think that for most people, that would be an interesting story and would result in follow up questions, like "how did this happen" and "where's HE, then" etc. Then they find out that she has cancer and using the power is killing her, and there's an all out war between the realms happening, and I'd think most people would be hooked.

The problem that turns people away isn't that Jane is Thor now. The problem is that it's tough to decipher where the hell you start, because the numbering has been restarted multiple times and the story got sidelined repeatedly by Secret Wars, CW2 and so on.

Same story for Sam. Anyone who saw the movie knows who he is. Same for Laura, big time.

2. Nobody is going into a goddamn comic shop anyway for all the same reasons that have been discussed for decades and yet have never improved.
 
B

Bronx-Man

Banned
This only reaffirms my theory that Feige is only person at Marvel period that knows what the fuck he's doing. The rest of company and their divisions is a damn mess.
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
Jackpot said:
C'mon kids, be a team-player for the military-industrial complex. Those tax dollars aren't going to spend themselves!
Click to expand...

The sheer amount of tone-deafness to release this is staggering.

I get it, comics side bleeds money, but you couldn't find ANYBODY else to make a partnership ad comic with?
 
H

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
LordOfLore said:
Marvel's one actual new book that was announced was a Hulkverine ongoing. This was their first con after Legacy #1 released so people expected actual news on their plans or books.
Click to expand...

Yeesh. This seems like something I would have written in middle school.
 
H

hodayathink

Member
Aurean_Mentat said:
Here's the thing: Diversity does work. But it is not a replacement for good storytelling.

Jessica Cruz and Simon Baz (two new Green Lanterns) have been received incredibly well. If someone wanted to keep up with Hal Jordan, there's a title for that too. Simon Baz and Jessica Cruz have a title, Hal Jordan and co. have a title. Literally everyone wins.

The problem is that instead of launching titles alongside, Marvel is just replacing their entire lineup. A problem that was mentioned at that conference is that people go into a comic book shop having seen, let's say, the latest Avengers movie with the classic lineup. Or Thor. When they then go into the comic book shop because the movie piqued their interest in the character, there's no title to be found. There's female Thor, and around a half-dozen adventure titles.

Marvel is throwing out their old stuff for the new stuff, and the problem is that the people who liked and bought the old stuff left, and the people who go nuts on twitter and tumblr about how Thor is now a chick, Hulk is asian, etc, don't buy comics. They might buy an issue or two, but they don't develop into an audience, who seems to move onto the next thing that is absolutely wrong for this day and age and needs to be changed (seem to be video games).

Keep your old heroes around, or have there be a few storylines introducing the next generation. At some point, have them one at a time move on, or retire. That could lead to some interesting storytelling. Instead, Marvel has changed out their roster at once, and we aren't even going into their addiction to events and relaunches.
Click to expand...

Except that there are two Thor titles (Unworthy Thor and JaneThor each have their own book). Cap and Sam Wilson each had their own book. To me, it's kinda like the people that complain about Spidey's marriage that even though we got Spider-Man:Renew Your Vows, it doesn't count because it's not the main Spidey book.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Marvel's Spider-Man 2 free prequel comic available online now
News Hype
14
2K
Black_Stride replied
Capcom’s new IP Kunitsu-Gami: Path of the Goddess missed sales targets despite high reviews
Sales-Age 2 3
127
5K
Arsic replied
Deadpool & Wolverine | Rotten Watch
Community
29
3K
Durien replied
NYT: The Palace Coup at the Magic Kingdom (Iger vs. Chapek)
27
2K
Tertullian replied
'Marvel's Spider-Man 2' video game director teases potential Venom spinoff: 'We're gonna listen to the fans'
Rumor 2
52
4K
Evil Calvin replied
Top Bottom