Support NeoGAF

[Fisico]

For a series that has never passed the 800k threshold it sales are fine for a platform of which no fan base was cultivated on. Selling less than on platforms with more cultivated fanbases does not make it the biggest bomb.

It did (Garaph numbers aren't 100% accurate btw, they just give you a general idea, Destiny 2 on PS2 ended around ~900k)

Just look at the sales of the original mothership titles :
[PS2] Tales of Destiny 2 - 762,861
[PS2] Tales of Symphonia - 390,414
[GCN] Tales of Symphonia - 311,473
[PS2] Tales of Rebirth - 596,493
[PS2] Tales of the Abyss - 556,465
[X360] Tales of Vesperia - 204,305
[Wii] Tales of Graces - 212,769
[PS3] Tales of Xillia - 632,151

It's obvious that when they decide not to release games on Sony platform the sales just weren't there, for Vesperia they had the M$ money and worldwide sales to help but even with that it just wasn't enough for them and that's why we'll probably never see a Tales on a Microsoft hardware again.
As for Graces what did Nintendo bring them ?
Nothing, no money no localization help, no sales, and the incapacity of patching their own game (something the Team Destiny's games are used to, the one before Graces, Destiny Remake, being delayed two weeks before release because of a similar problem)


But maybe it's a mere coincidence if weeks after the release of Graces the Tales Studio was on the verge of dying

Symphonia. God I loved that game so much.

Sales were decent in Japan, but still less than half what Tales games were doing on PS2 thus the PS2 port a year later.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Again assumed overlap you have no proof. And the game was a buggy mess which destroyed any legs it had.

And theres no proof a MP release of Tales would do 150k or even 50k on WiiU. So what is the path Namco should take that has the lowest risk factor: release the games to a fanbase that is large enough and you know for certain exists.

Between you trying to spin Graces as some success and saying Tales games have legs its clear you don't know what your talking about.

 

[Principate]

And theres no proof a MP release of Tales would do 150k or even 50k on WiiU. So what is the path Namco should take that has the lowest risk factor: release the games to a fanbase that is large enough and you know for certain exists.

Between you trying to spin Graces as some success and saying Tales games have legs its clear you don't know what your talking about.

Wii games tend to have more legs, or rather games on Nintendo systems in general. Mostly due to the differences in owners.

 

[sense]

Multiplatform publishers in the west do it for less so there's clearly sufficient amount of revenue capable from it. The most likely scenario is a lot of Japanese developers just aren't built to handle simultaneous multiplatform titles so they don't bother.



Tales of graces on the wii sold near 30% of tales of Xillia. If that's not doing well then I don't know what is. Also Abyss

I wasn't asking that question I had already assumed that was likely the reason, I was wonder why people were assuming there was no fanbase on Nintendo platform when the 3DS and wii games didn't bomb as bad as I thought they would considering the circumstances of the versions.

well i don't think anyone at namco is going "well that didn't bomb as bad as we thought lets keep making more games for it" .one platform clearly sells way more and they are sticking to it for the time being. ofcourse there is a fanbase on nintendo platfroms but it is just not big enough to justify the cost especially in japan who are not optimized for multiplatform development. in an ideal world except for mh like games where you want to keep the audience on one platform it doesn't make sense for a third party to be exclusive. we are starting to see it though with a lot of ps3/ps4/vita/psp and very few vita/3ds titles but it seems to be a slow undertaking with regards to nintendo/sony cross platform games

 

[z0m3le]

You are also assuming the ins and outs of porting a ps3 game built on whatever engine current Tales games are built on would be the same or similar as porting an unreal engine game. I'm assuming Namco makes rational business decisions and that porting whatever tales game we are talking about would reduce their profitability.

Who knows what the actual story is.

No, not exactly, I'm saying they should build their engine to be cross-platform, or heck, use one already done, Namco games would look fine in Unity, Unreal or Crytek. The industry shouldn't place their IPs in places that games have to jump through hoops to get at. 3rd parties gain nothing from exclusives, they simply take a slightly(considering indies) smaller risk.

Western developers learned not to go down exclusive paths and japan's developers are still catching up to the idea not to place bets with their audiences.

 

[3Kaze]

Wii games tend to have more legs, or rather games on Nintendo systems in general. Mostly due to the differences in owners.

Which third party games did well or had legs on Wii/U aside from Monster Hunter?
Edit : Forgot Taiko

 

[Principate]

well i don't think anyone at namco is going "well that didn't bomb as bad as we thought lets keep making more games for it" .one platform clearly sells way more and they are sticking to it for the time being. ofcourse there is a fanbase on nintendo platfroms but it is just not big enough to justify the cost especially in japan who are not optimized for multiplatform development. in an ideal world except for mh like games where you want to keep the audience on one platform it doesn't make sense for a third party to be exclusive. we are starting to see it though with a lot of ps3/ps4/vita/psp and very few vita/3ds titles but it seems to be a slow undertaking with regards to nintendo/sony cross platform games

I'm not talking about Namco this argument has nothing to do with Namco. I'm not port begging nor am I wondering why they didn't port. I asking why people on this board are treating the sales on Nintendo platforms as if they didn't happen. Like there is no fanbase whatsoever on those platforms.

 

[Mpl90]

Jesus, those 3DS software sales. Over 1 million this week, and 31 titles in top 50, that's seriously near to DS-like domination. I suppose it's the biggest amount of software 3DS ever had in top 50.

Another interesting thing

24/20 PS3 World Soccer Winning Eleven 2014 Konami 13/11/14 12,300 239,597 -9%
36/40 3DS World Soccer Winning Eleven 2014 Konami 13/11/14 8,241 37,324 55%
44/43 PSP World Soccer Winning Eleven 2014 Konami 13/11/14 6,233 45,171 24%

Currently, on Amazon
WE 2014 3DS - 26th
WE 2014 PS3 - 66th
WE 2014 PSP - 91st

Could we see next week a WE game on a Nintendo platform selling as much as one on a Sony home platform? That would be quite unprecedented :lol

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

I'm not talking about Namco this argument has nothing to do with Namco. I'm not port begging nor am I wondering why they didn't port. I asking why people on this board are treating the sales on Nintendo platforms as if they didn't happen. Like there is no fanbase whatsoever on those platforms.

Why just Nintendo? ToV sold 200k on 360 as well. Namco should put future tales games on 360 because there is clearly a fanbase there........-_____-

 

[freezamite]

Why just Nintendo? ToV sold 200k on 360 as well. Namco should put future tales games on 360 because there is clearly a fanbase there........-_____-

While the eastern audience it's on PS, the Tales of arrived at the west through the GC. In fact, I think that ToS sold much better on the GC than on PS2 if we take worldwide sales into account. I may be wrong though, so if anyone can check it...

 

[Principate]

Why just Nintendo? ToV sold 200k on 360 as well. Namco should put future tales games on 360 because there is clearly a fanbase there........-_____-

Way to completely ignore you just read good job.

 

[Fisico]

While the eastern audience it's on PS, the Tales of arrived at the west through the GC. In fact, I think that ToS sold much better on the GC than on PS2 if we take worldwide sales into account. I may be wrong though, so if anyone can check it...

No you're not, the game was heavily promoted and bundled with the GC so its sales are around 1M worlwide against 400k for the PS2 version.

 

[sörine]

While the eastern audience it's on PS, the Tales of arrived at the west through the GC. In fact, I think that ToS sold much better on the GC than on PS2 if we take worldwide sales into account. I may be wrong though, so if anyone can check it...

Symphonia did over 400k in the US alone and still holds the record as Namco's best selling RPG ever here. Worldwide I believe it was close to a million overall on Gamecube. Add in the PS2 port and it's the best selling Tales game period.

No you're not, the game was heavily promoted and bundled with the GC so its sales are around 1M worlwide against 400k for the PS2 version.

Where in the west was Symphonia bundled with Gamecube? Or do you just mean Japan?

The western promotion was comparable to Abyss, Vesperia, Graces f and Xillia. Basically all the mothership games since it have gotten a similar push.

 

[Acosta]

Porting is not such a "cut & dry" process as some of you think it is. There are certifications, there are different kind of issues with the different bodies of the company around the world, it complicates everything when you try to localizate. And then the porting itself. It makes sense in high volumes, but not in in this kind of middle ground.

Try to figure why small companies are normally single platform, aside of "being small".

 

[Road]

People asking about DQX expansion pack sales are so cute, but not as cute as the people who like to list Deep Down as a relevant PS4 game. And this Tales discussion would make sense if the last 5 years hadn't happened.

Are there any Comgnet numbers for Zelda: ALBW?

Comgnet pre-orders 7 days until release:

Phantom Hourglass: 133 pt
Spirit Tracks: 122 pt
Ocarina of Time 3D: 136 pt
Skyward Sword: 166 pt
A Link Between Words: 53 pt

But I won't be surprised to see ALBW outselling SS and OoT3D first week due to the holidays.

 

[z0m3le]

Porting is not such a "cut & dry" process as some of you think it is. There are certifications, there are different kind of issues with the different bodies of the company around the world, it complicates everything when you try to localizate. And then the porting itself. It makes sense in high volumes, but not in in this kind of middle ground.

Try to figure why small companies are normally single platform, aside of "being small".

If this was true, how do small Indie games port across so many platforms? kickstarter stretch goals can be ridiculously low for porting to another platform. I'm listening, I'm willing to learn why I am wrong, do you have a reason or do you just assume it's hard?

 

[sörine]

Eek at those comg preorders! I thought ALBW was going to be the next surprise million seller after Luigi but maybe not.

 

[Metallix87]

Why would Nintendo pay for it? It won't do anything for the system.

Why not? ToS was previously the most successful game in the franchise in the West, plus a title that did well in Japan. PLUS, Nintendo's system needs more content.

 

[sense]

I'm not talking about Namco this argument has nothing to do with Namco. I'm not port begging nor am I wondering why they didn't port. I asking why people on this board are treating the sales on Nintendo platforms as if they didn't happen. Like there is no fanbase whatsoever on those platforms.

i don't see anyone saying there is no fanbase on nintendo platforms it is just half or less in most cases than it is on the competing platform.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

If this was true, how do small Indie games port across so many platforms? kickstarter stretch goals can be ridiculously low for porting to another platform. I'm listening, I'm willing to learn why I am wrong, do you have a reason or do you just assume it's hard?

I'm assuming costs of porting increases the more complex a game. Also I've seen KS goals ridiculously high for porting to another platform.

 

[Acosta]

If this was true, how do small Indie games port across so many platforms? kickstarter stretch goals can be ridiculously low for porting to another platform. I'm listening, I'm willing to learn why I am wrong, do you have a reason or do you just assume it's hard?

It´s not the same for download only games than for big games. Indies can self-publish for example, the certification process is different. They don't need to go through the physical process of each company as they have not physical product. And they have some luxuries as being able to make late ports, while in the disc space that's not welcomed by platform holders.

It´s way more complicated to publish a game in a disc for a console, and it´s much more complicated doing it in three.

And this:

I'm assuming costs of porting increases the more complex a game. Also I've seen KS goals ridiculously high for porting to another platform.

 

[Principate]

i don't see anyone saying there is no fanbase on nintendo platforms it is just half or less in most cases than it is on the competing platform.

Saying the fanbase is only on PlayStation states just that so I've seen it plenty of times.

 

[z0m3le]

It´s not the same for download only games than for big games. Indies can self-publish for example, the certification process is different. They don't need to go through the physical process of each company as they have not physical product. And they have some luxuries as being able to make late ports, while in the disc space that's not welcomed by platform holders.

It´s way more complicated to publish a game in a disc for a console, and it´s much more complicated doing it in three.

And this:

First, to the last point, even $1 million is recovered at 40k units sold or less, depending on how much the developer gets back.

Second, I am assuming that the developer is a certified developer for all platforms involved.

Third, what you are talking about with physical discs actually doesn't make much since beyond a surface evaluation, for instance, a developer releasing Game A on PS3 and Game B on 360 should see no real difference had Game A and Game B been the same game, it would likely be easier as the bugs should more easily be found that plague the fundimental code. I guess I simply disagree with this: "It´s way more complicated to publish a game in a disc for a console, and it´s much more complicated doing it in three." at best it's trivial and about timing, at worst, the platforms ask for different requirements for their games (720p mandatory on one, 46fps mandatory on another)

So is this just coming from assumption or experience, if you don't mind me asking? You don't have to answer this, you can even PM me so no one here has to know, I'm just curious as I've started recently making my own game on Unity and Will be looking to release it on PC, Wii U and possibly PS4 (if I can raise the money) I'll contact Microsoft at some point too, I like that the XB1 can be used as a dev kit, but I'm unsure if I will meet the requirements to become a certified developer for that platform (again I am assuming above that 3rd parties we are talking about are certified with all platform holders)

 

[Magicpaint]

Why not? ToS was previously the most successful game in the franchise in the West, plus a title that did well in Japan. PLUS, Nintendo's system needs more content.

I guess more content is a good thing, but it'd be a waste to pay for this when that can go into more internal development. I mean look what Yakuza HD did for the system's fortunes.

And eek those Comgnet preorder numbers look terrible for Zelda.

 

[Yamauchi]

Wii U sales are 30k higher this week than the GameCube's in the same week during its second Christmas season. LTD numbers are still bad, but at least the Wii U is recovering.

 

[BriBri]

35/34 3DS Daigasso! Band Brothers P Nintendo 13/11/14 8,794 76,854 20%
43/60 3DS Kuma-Tomo Bandai Namco Games 13/06/20 6,244 77,549

Let the battle commence!

 

[Kandinsky]

Eek at those comg preorders! I thought ALBW was going to be the next surprise million seller after Luigi but maybe not.

Dont worry, it will.

 

[NeonZ]

Eek at those comg preorders! I thought ALBW was going to be the next surprise million seller after Luigi but maybe not.

2d Zelda isn't some forgotten treasure from the SNES time. We still got 2d Zeldas even after Ocarina of Time, and they never matched the sales of 3d entries from around the same period.

I don't get why people seem to expect a NSMB-like effect from this game.

 

[sörine]

2d Zelda isn't some forgotten treasure from the SNES time. We still got 2d Zeldas even after Ocarina of Time, and they never matched the sales of console entries from around the same period.

I don't get why people seem to expect a NSMB-like effect from this game.

Right but the other 2D handheld Zeldas after LA were outsourced, treated as secondary releases and not really that great imo. I expected ALBW to grow from where PH/ST sold not only due to the nostalgia callbacks but also the "full Zelda" treatment it seems to be getting and the generally great word of mouth but those awful preorders are worrying.

 

[kayos90]

Saying the fanbase is only on PlayStation states just that so I've seen it plenty of times.

For the love of everything, please use commas or write posts that are more easily readable.

Also, most of the fanbase is on the Sony consoles as the sales have shown. I'm not exactly sure why you think the 200k sales is a success when a subsequent release on another platform had triple the sales.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

And they have some luxuries as being able to make late ports...

This isn't true. Look at Forced as an example, the WiiU version is finished and ready to publish, yet it's been delayed in to the next year, due to 'late release' rules by Microsoft.

Smaller teams are not immune to platform holder bullshit.

 

[Glass Rebel]

Zelda rap came too late for the best Zelda in ages

 

[extralite]

2d Zelda isn't some forgotten treasure from the SNES time. We still got 2d Zeldas even after Ocarina of Time, and they never matched the sales of 3d entries from around the same period.

I don't get why people seem to expect a NSMB-like effect from this game.

Is there a reason why people do not consider the DS Zeldas 2D? Sure, since they use touch controls they play a bit differently but the gameplay and perspective is strictly 2D. Except for being rendered in real time (which is also true of ALBW), they aren't 3D at all.

 

[Meier]

Is that Inazuma Eleven a completely new title in the series? Or some sort of spin-off? I assume the latter but I hadn't heard of it at all before. Still can't believe they haven't released any in the US.

 

[BriBri]

Is there a reason why people do not consider the DS Zeldas 2D? Sure, since they use touch controls they play a bit differently but the gameplay and perspective is strictly 2D. Except for being rendered in real time (which is also true of ALBW), they aren't 3D at all.

I think the terms 2D and 3D are irrelevant here. More the terms nostalgia and non-nostalgia are more apt.

 

[dragonfart28]

Nintendo should be sending Sony some flowers for keeping them in the game.

 

[hiska-kun]

Dont worry, it will.

I was thinking it could. But know that you said it, you ruined it. The game will Fail.

Spoiler

 

[sörine]

I'm surprised there's no 3DS version of Zelda Musou. I would think both Nintendo and Koei would want to hedge their bets on the game.

 

[Fisico]

Where in the west was Symphonia bundled with Gamecube? Or do you just mean Japan?

The western promotion was comparable to Abyss, Vesperia, Graces f and Xillia. Basically all the mothership games since it have gotten a similar push.

Didn't saw your edit

I forgot that America didn't get this one.

 

[Magicpaint]

Right but the other 2D handheld Zeldas after LA were outsourced, treated as secondary releases and not really that great imo. I expected ALBW to grow from where PH/ST sold not only due to the nostalgia callbacks but also the "full Zelda" treatment it seems to be getting and the generally great word of mouth but those awful preorders are worrying.

I would argue against ALBW getting full treatment when it uses ALTTP as a template for just about everything. It's the least fresh handheld Zelda game we've had so far, IMO.

Dont worry, it will.

So it won't :\

 

[sörine]

I would argue against ALBW getting full treatment when it uses ALTTP as a template for just about everything. It's the least fresh handheld Zelda game we've had so far, IMO.

Having fully completed it I'd have to strongly disagree. The only things it lifts directly from ALTTP are the title and most of the light overworld layout.

 

[Metallix87]

Didn't saw your edit

I forgot that America didn't get this one.

I wish we did. That system is absolutely beautiful.

 

[ohlawd]

ew I don't want to see Lloyd's ugly mug every time I turn on the Cube.

Waste. Should have been Colette or Sheena.

 

[Asd202]

Never mind lol.

 

[RalchAC]

Multiplatform publishers in the west do it for less so there's clearly sufficient amount of revenue capable from it. The most likely scenario is a lot of Japanese developers just aren't built to handle simultaneous multiplatform titles so they don't bother.

Tales of graces on the wii sold near 30% of tales of Xillia. If that's not doing well then I don't know what is. Also Abyss

Seriously, don't do this. I went to Famitsu 2009 top 100 and look at this:

25. [PS3] Tales of Vesperia (Bandai Namco) - 337,783
30. [PSP] Tales of the World: Radiant Mythology 2 (Bandai Namco) - 317,730
47. [PSP] Tales of Versus (Bandai Namco) - 231,351
70. [WII] Tales of Graces (Bandai Namco) - 177,925

Tales of Vesperia is a one year old port. It almost doubled Tales of Graces sales. There were two spin-offs released on the PSP (one is a fighting game) and both outsold the next mothership title.

And Tales of Graces F sold 288.000 units in 2010 (looked at Famitsu top 100) on PS3.

Tales of Vesperia sold 180.000 units in X360 too. I think that it proves that there is some quite active and loyal fanbase for the IP in Japan that will double dip or even buy a console for the game (they are like Persona fans in the west xD). So it's not 170.000 + 230.000 people at all.

People is not saying there isn't a Tales fan in Japan that doesn't have a PS3. But most have a PS3, that's obvious. If you are a Tales fan, buy a PS3 now that you can get it for cheap and play the games. That's the message they're sending since Tales of Xillia, and that was in 2011.

 

[disap.ed]

They also have big Mario 3D World billboards like this:

Who's Mario?

 

[Hero of Legend]

And Tota did better than what they expected lol.

Its more likely for a 3DS tales game than wiiu.

I;m shocked another 3DS Tales hasn't happened by now. Hopefully it happens soon, and is a new game and not a port/remake.

Spoiler

One exception is a Tempest remake by Dimps themselves on 3DS, I'll always love them for DBZ Budokai, YT footage of the DS original looks fine to me, don't get the hate.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Seriously, don't do this. I went to Famitsu 2009 top 100 and look at this:



Tales of Vesperia is a one year old port. It almost doubled Tales of Graces sales. There were two spin-offs released on the PSP (one is a fighting game) and both outsold the next mothership title.

And Tales of Graces F sold 288.000 units in 2010 (looked at Famitsu top 100) on PS3.

Tales of Vesperia sold 180.000 units in X360 too. I think that it proves that there is some quite active and loyal fanbase for the IP in Japan that will double dip or even buy a console for the game (they are like Persona fans in the west xD). So it's not 170.000 + 230.000 people at all.

People is not saying there isn't a Tales fan in Japan that doesn't have a PS3. But most have a PS3, that's obvious. If you are a Tales fan, buy a PS3 now that you can get it for cheap and play the games. That's the message they're sending since Tales of Xillia, and that was in 2011.

Yup if your a Tales fan and you don't have a PS3 yet you have failed my friend. So hard.

 

[Lumyst]

Well I'm in the awkward position of coming to like the Tales of series through Dawn of the New World and Vesperia I'm holding out for a PS4 Tales of game. What did Baba say they are like, "Bon Bons" so by then, I'll have an appetite for more Bon Bons.

 

[Oddduck]

This just shows the overreaction to Nintendo sales

Nintendo is not doomed and are fine, people seem to forget how badly GC and N64 got outsold by PS1 and PS2, Nintendo doesnt have to be in 1st place or right next to the top in console sales to survive, they just have to make money which they are making a lot of.

As of right now, is Nintendo actually making a profit on each Wii U sold?