And what makes you say that? How do you know I haven't messaged her or talked to her in voice about it? Are you that naive? If she enjoys a video game, she won't let someone else take that away from her, especially a random. Simple as that. But like i said, you're probably just naive.
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MIC: Overwatch players turn to Reddit to share their stories of Harrassment
- Thread starter EdibleKnife
- Start date
And what makes you say that? How do you know I haven't messaged her or talked to her in voice about it? Are you that naive? If she enjoys a video game, she won't let someone else take that away from her, especially a random. Simple as that. But like i said, you're probably just naive.
Stop with the concern trolling. If you wanted to spread positivity, you would have posted a message of solidarity with women instead of this shit right here.
Also, now that you've gone back on your word and responded to me a few times, answer my questions: how does an emotional response to harassment and the enabling of it inherently undermine anyone's argument regarding what to do about it? Or were you just pointing out people having skin in the game as a way to be an asshole?
I think this generally is true from my experiences, though I can't speak for women, people tend to be less toxic the more they concentrate on the game and all the callouts. A dps calling out low health enemies tend to be less toxic towards the team compared to one just trying to frag out while the team is losing.
Of course it might just be the bell curve working where all the toxicity is mostly in the middle of the population. (between 1800-3300 SR)
You'll still get your trolls, but people are less toxic than exasperated the higher you go it seems.
I think it's harder to have a similar sort of distribution for games like LoL where there isn't any voice chat or high communication requirements. Probably why it feels toxicity goes from the bottom all the way up.
This is something I wonder about a lot, like the root cause of this behavior. People say "oh, anonymity" but I have never once thought things like this, never mind thought they were good things to say aloud just because I was anonymous. What parent is raising a child like this? What husband is calling women whores and bitches online then able to look his wife in the eye when he logs off? Why is she not saying something if she hears him act this way, or being racist?
Not every gamer is a bachelor in a basement, and even then people are raised up, they don't just come out of a vacuum, they should know these things are not okay.
It strikes me as a systemic problem rather than some bad eggs or the inevitable effect of anonymous online interaction. After all, people post horrible shit under their own real names on facebook/twitter too.
Gentleman Jack
Member
Well
I agree that the folks who barely meet the ESRB/PEGI guidelines on the packaging might lack the life experience required to truly understand that it's okay to be as different as you can be and that everyone is just trying to have a good time in this world. However, it's not just teenagers, but normal, grown-ass adults who participate in the racist, sexist moshpit, and Facebook has shown that a lack of anonymity is no barrier to entry. So while taking care of 'those darn anon kids' might reduce the volume I fear it won't make a significant dent in the overall problems faced by the victims of the abuse.
markwaters
Neo Member
Your advice is "allow people who harass youto enjoy a game however they want, but restrict your own actions as to not become a target of their harassment."
That is terrible advice. Full stop. It solves nothing about the problem. I get what you're saying: it alleviates the symptoms of the problem by reducing the harm you to which you subject yourself. But why wouldn't we, as a community, want to just snuff the problem out completely instead of treating the symptoms?
You say we can't, but I completely disagree and I think there's demonstrable ways to reduce toxicity by condemning it publicly and universally. People do it because they get away with it and nobody does anything about it in an immediate sense. In the case of an OW, there are 4 other teammates there who, when the culture positively reinforces that if they join in on the harassment there are no consequences and they will be part of the "in-group", they will. But if everyone there is ready and able to shut that shit down and the culture shifts from "there's nothing we can do about harassment" to "stop fucking harassing people, you hormonal teenage shit", then these kids and this toxic behavior makes way for more productive attitudes and behavior.
Does it happen overnight? No. But asking people who are relentlessly harassed to just be quiet and ignore their harassers without any recourse is sending the message to these toxic-ass kids who are learning about the world through this behavior that, yes, they can do whatever they want to anyone they want and there are no consequences. If we do nothing, online games become a place to catalyze misogynists, racists, and sociopaths. I refuse to accept that as the answer to this problem.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Yes.
The shit is baffling and the number of sociopaths gaming online never ceases to amaze me. I'll never understand the mind that thinks saying these things is acceptable. I don't even understand the mind that thinks them in the first place. Perhaps we were simply raised better.
Once again, this thread isn't about women only.. but as in my previous post, it is unfortunate that the user's post I responded to has a gf who gets called all sorts of things. Thats me posting my "message of solidarity".
I don't agree, if it was a small community that had a couple of toxic players then sure. But when you have a game with 25 million players and growing, there will always be that one person every now and then who just hates life and takes that shit out on a video game.. you can sit there and try and act nice to that particular person, ask him to stop being so toxic.. but if thats his general mentality, it will just make him even more toxic. The only step towards reducing toxicity in a huge game like this is implementing a new behavioral system that punishes the toxic player. I don't see this system coming out for years.. so for now, the only step towards building a "positive" community is to just not give the toxic player any attention and to not take any of his words seriously.
I did leave it at that, and offered general solutions to it. But i guess most people just like to read the negative over the positive ^^
markwaters
Neo Member
It's a sociological thing. It's Penny Arcade's "internet fuckwad theory" on steroids. You create a place where casual homophobia, racism, and misogyny have no negative consequences and make you part of the "normal" in-group, and people will default to that sort of behavior. They know it is wrong, but it's normalized and positively reinforced that they can do it, it will make them part of the majority, and there are no legitimate consequences.
When people are seeking to be part of the in-group, they will do absolutely horrible things -- or ignore absolutely horrible things happening to their neighbors. History has shown this.
Shake Appeal
Member
It's not, it's getting better. It's just more visible because gaming is becoming more diverse and more social and expanding beyond its traditional niche communities. A lot of this stuff feels like it's flaring up more because sunlight is pouring into videogaming and its cultures are being examined more closely.
It's a painful process, but these issues are already far more discussed and considered than they were even a few years ago, and I've noticed a definite improvement in how GAF as a whole responds to threads like these.
You can dodge until the cows come home, but I'm going to keep pressing you on your insistence that people targeted by harassment and those actually empathetic to them are at fault for having an emotional reaction. Reconcile this bit of irrelevant shit-stirring and victim blaming, or have you just been trolling the entire time and don't actually care about the subject matter at hand?
No one said they are at fault for having an emotional reaction. What i said was DO NOT hold onto that emotional reaction because it wont get anyone anywhere. Therefore, I offered the only possible solutions to move past something if you really enjoy that particular video game. I think this is a great article for you to read:
http://ahigherbalance.com/writings-by-judy/your-energy-system-and-the-law-of-attraction/
Everyone should read this because it truly is wonderful. One last tip I can give all of you before I leave this thread for good is remember... ALWAYS try to create positive energy in even the worst scenarios. With that said, you're all beautiful and hope you all have a wonderful day =)
StrikeNinja24
Banned
Most don't have any of that to worry about.
Shake Appeal
Member
Congratulations, you have achieved concern troll mastery.
No. You said-
- which in the context of your insistence on trolling people for being emotional and your general defeatist attitude towards addressing the issue versus telling victims of harassment how to handle themselves strikes up a narrative of concern trolling and victim blaming to veil your apathy towards a problem you're not affected by. Your contribution to this thread has been shit, and instead of running away with your tail tucked and a dumbass smiley maybe you could actually do some introspection.
I'm positive you are part of the problem.
crowphoenix
Banned
Wow. After reading a couple pages of this, I honestly hope you are a troll. Because you are coming across incredibly sanctimonious and disingenuous.
VisualFidelity
Member
I stopped using voice chat after halo 2. Sadly. Not because it offends me but because its annoying. Gamers are some of the rudest most offensive cowards on the planet, well behind the keyboard at least. Sucks girls get the worst of it.
If it comes to the point where you cant LET GO of what someone said to you weeks ago in a game of Overwatch, then yea.. i question you being on the internet..
And one last thought (for real this time), I dont think you're positive i'm part of the problem.. but im positive you're way too vulnerable and instead of actually moving past the problem, you sit here and attack people trying to actually give you decent advice. Instead you expect sympathetic responses like you're the only person / gender in the world who gets attacked on the internet. I wish you the best in moving past the whole "If you wanted to spread positivity, you would have posted a message of solidarity with women"... although i doubt you will.
Mammoth Jones
Member
You're not giving decent advice, lmao.
bababoooey
Member
i'm thinking that 95% of the kids talking all of that shit aren't going to call my girl a slut or me a fag at the movies..
for them it's fun to talk shit to people over the internet.i understand it but i don't agree with it. now my wife has played games where's she's been called a lot of things..possibly every name on the book in less than 15 mins.
i'm hispanic and i've been sent to hell by people..but i just laugh and play my game. it's funny to me.. but i can clearly see a lot of you find it a huge issue as it affects your online experience.
stay away from gears of war.
you're just too emotional for his clear-eyed practicality to reach you
This kind of thing is the reason I stay away from competitive games. I love competition, but man video games seem toxic sometimes. It's weird, I always thought due to stereotypes that nerdy stuff was supposed to be inviting and fun but it's seriously the most toxic competitive activity I've ever attempted to be engaged in.
Can someone explain this to me because I truly do not understand it.
I have never been in a situation where I decided that since I was anonymous and no one could 'see' me that I would engage in behaviour like this. I don't understand how it's just accepted that in anonymous spaces a worrisome number of people will be monsters. This isn't right or normal. There is something mentally wrong with these people.
I have never been mean or cruel because I thought I could get away with it without anyone knowing what I did so why is it accepted by so many that there will always be scores of otherwise normal people that will behave this way. I don't think i'm much different from anyone else so why are people acting like this I don't understand.
I am a woman and this is why I don't participate in voice chat or make myself known as a woman in online environments related to games save for generally awesome ones like NeoGAF.
I just don't understand why some people decide empathy or humanity takes second seat when you're engaging with fellow humans through a secondary medium
I have never been in a situation where I decided that since I was anonymous and no one could 'see' me that I would engage in behaviour like this. I don't understand how it's just accepted that in anonymous spaces a worrisome number of people will be monsters. This isn't right or normal. There is something mentally wrong with these people.
I have never been mean or cruel because I thought I could get away with it without anyone knowing what I did so why is it accepted by so many that there will always be scores of otherwise normal people that will behave this way. I don't think i'm much different from anyone else so why are people acting like this I don't understand.
I am a woman and this is why I don't participate in voice chat or make myself known as a woman in online environments related to games save for generally awesome ones like NeoGAF.
I just don't understand why some people decide empathy or humanity takes second seat when you're engaging with fellow humans through a secondary medium
Adding an arbitrary time after a hypothetical incident to make the idea of someone being upset over harassment happening to them in a game seem more ridiculous than the harassment itself doesn't give this continued insistence on telling people to "get over it" any validity.
So you were fucking around before. Glad we cleared that up! "=)"
I'm quite "positive" about how much you've shat up the thread because you just admitted to using a topic about the misogynistic and racist abuse commonly thrown towards minorities in the Overwatch community as a platform to troll people either affected by harassment or empathetic to those who were.
You're not in this topic sincerely to give advice to victims of online harassment. You're here to troll. That's why you're being attacked. Don't try to make yourself out to be a victim now, especially since your whole shtick has been undermining the victimization of others.
And there's the little kernel of gamer insecurity underlying your whole fuckboi attitude towards the issue. "What about the men?!"
Bye Felicia.
In short: there are a very large group of people out there who think it's really funny when people get mad, so they spend a large percentage of their time making themselves feel better by making other people feel worse.
That's it. We're talking about it here in the medium of video games, but a short stroll through social media is enough to prove that in spades. It's not even about anonymity anymore (you can question if it ever was), it's about finding other people's misery as a catharsis for your own shortcomings.
It's juvenile as fuck. But mainstream media has also shown it as the correct thing to do and anyone pushing back against it is "thin-skinned" or are "hypersensitive" and "should lighten up".
::Shrug:: The past 4 pages are a pretty good example of this.
You. Need. To. Stop. Feeding. This. Troll.
shiftplusone
Member
I don't know what the answer is for this
Like, I've played online games since quake 2 and I don't think I've ever been like these people even during my teen years when you're supposed to be the worst
If there was like a site or discord channel or clan that only vetted and brought in positive people that would be cool but I don't think it would get the reach to everyone, and there's no way to keep scum out, really
Ultimately the solution would be for the shit heads to be punished or not allowed in the first place instead of having to have the good people go through extra steps to have a good experience, but I don't know how you do that either
It sucks, and I wish more people would just be better.
Like, I've played online games since quake 2 and I don't think I've ever been like these people even during my teen years when you're supposed to be the worst
If there was like a site or discord channel or clan that only vetted and brought in positive people that would be cool but I don't think it would get the reach to everyone, and there's no way to keep scum out, really
Ultimately the solution would be for the shit heads to be punished or not allowed in the first place instead of having to have the good people go through extra steps to have a good experience, but I don't know how you do that either
It sucks, and I wish more people would just be better.
Your advice is approaching the "you should dress less slutty to avoid sexual harassment!" levels of absurd. The responsibility shouldn't be on the victim to deal with harassment. I get what you're saying in terms of the ingrained mentality that's present in people after all these years of not being criticized, but at the same time saying that people should be able to play how they want without being criticized for less than desirable behavior is the worst excuse.
As I said beforehand, I don't believe ignoring bad behavior makes it go away. Indeed, ignoring bad behavior on a large enough scale over a long period of time has resulted in the situation gaming is in right now where racism, sexism, and general harassment have been normalized to the point where people now feel like there's nothing that can be done and thus we've ceded just about all of the ground to shitstains to continue being shitstains, forcing minorities to censor their own experience and hide themselves in order to have the default experience of a presumed white male gamer. If we're honest about creating a culture that is instead more inclusive to minorities and more hostile to the people who are harassing them, then one thing I feel more people can do more often is show minorities active support in the face of dumbassery and stick to a no-tolerance stance should they be in the vicinity and able to help it. That starts with calling people on their shit and taking on trolls like Strakt. Social ostracization and consequences for behavior is a hell of a drug.
I don't know when the point arrived where being a jerk was easier than just not talking. Maybe it was always that way. But yes, the complete lack of any sort of retribution for poor behavior ACROSS THE BOARD is disappointing.
I still like going by the Microsoft ban appeal forums. For catharsis.
There is a difference between calling someone out on their shit behavior and continuing to double down on someone who not only has any intention of changing their viewpoint or ways, but is finding glee from your anger. Do not waste your time with brick walls, save your strength and sense of clarity for people worth having the discussion with. Don't coddle the racist but don't give yourself a concussion by slamming your head against a brick wall, nothing is gained from doing that.
Who says I'm not gaining entertainment out of this either? I mean, I just got the dude to admit this whole shitshow has ultimately about his fleeting fragility over the fact that the subject is focused on women and not men. I'm going to get me some vanilla Oreos from the pantry as a reward.
There's no happy medium either. It's either what you've described above or nothing at all in my experience. I can't remember the last time I actually had a genuine conversation with teammates. It's frustrating.
Lol racist? What kind of drug are you smoking?
It's a term. Look it up.
7DollarHagane
Banned
This post is more insightful than most.
If all of us were held accountable for our actions when growing up we wouldn't get very far. You're basically an entirely different person between 12 and 24. Unless you're just some extremely emotionally mature outlier.
As a minority myself, I can claim you are racist to your own kind.
By not acknowledging (and downplaying) our fucking suffering each day in this world.
Yes because you calling out white straight males in your other posts is perfectly fine right? I love each and everyone equally.. ur posts say otherwise about you; keep spewing more bullshit
Yes, I stand by every single word.
crowphoenix
Banned
As a straight, white male, I can confirm that we're a fucking problem. My race and gender have issues that we need to deal with. And a major one is not being absolute garbage humans.
zerokoolpsx
Member
This is why you don't voice chat with randoms. It sucks, but its better than hearing their shit during the entire match. Their is no accountability with Blizzard reports. 
I have tons of friends who are white and male and are perfectly normal. Every skin color, gender, and race has its outliers that are toxic.
Stand by whatever you want. Like I said.. you wont get very far in life with that grudge you hold against a particular category of people... which is probably why you're taking out your frustrations in this thread.