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[Chiggs]

Watch out, Topher ! A topic like this bound to rile up the MUH PC! crowd, a group of valiant knights who made a solemn blood oath with the incredible x86 architecture.

Get ready for a certain Chips and Cheese article to be posted that proves--in their minds--that there is no advantage to ARM, despite everyone diving headfirst at it.

 

[ZehDon]

Windows on ARM has been around for a while, but it'll be interesting to see if Microsoft can make it stick this time. The issue remains giving up 99% of third party apps; not sure how you solve that seamlessly for the end user.

 

[Topher]

Watch out, Topher ! A topic like this bound to rile up the MUH PC! crowd, a group of valiant knights who made a solemn blood oath with the incredible x86 architecture.

Get ready for a certain Chips and Cheese article to be posted that proves--in their minds--that there is no advantage to ARM, despite everyone diving headfirst at it.

I'm a PC gamer myself, but I'm not knowledgeable enough in the tech to really have an opinion either way. I just think it is interesting to talk about where tech companies are going. But yeah......people can get wound up on this stuff, you are right.

 

[64bitmodels]

Watch out, Topher ! A topic like this bound to rile up the MUH PC! crowd, a group of valiant knights who made a solemn blood oath with the incredible x86 architecture.

Get ready for a certain Chips and Cheese article to be posted that proves--in their minds--that there is no advantage to ARM, despite everyone diving headfirst at it.

Customizable and DIY-friendly Cpu architecture that hosts 40+ years worth of games and gaming related software

is getting replaced by

a locked down cpu architecture who's equivalent to that are a bunch of mobile games and Nintendo Switch titles

This change is being spearheaded by one of the least repair friendly and most restrictive computer hardware companies around. (No, it's not microsoft) who up until recently never gave a shit about gaming and never done anything in the industry.

Gamers are, for some unfathomable reason, upset.

 

[StereoVsn]

When you look at the regulatory environment today, when you know Microsoft has just been designated as a ‘Gatekeeper’ for Windows by the EU, when you see the DOJ and EU pushing even locked iOS to open up…and then you go “I think Microsoft plans to lock down Windows”… that’s clearly in tinfoil hat territory.

Ah, well. I’m past the stage where anything here surprises me.

I have been working with MS for decades. I am currently working with them on multiple projects and their tendency to try and monopolize shit hasn’t changed.

They are more “open” in theory but when push comes to shove it’s all same crap with better PR.

And regulatory environment can change, especially in US.

 

[Topher]

Not going to create a separate thread, but Jez Corden is weighing in on this stuff as well, speculating on Microsoft's next moves in the gaming space.


"Speaking of emulation, there are huge moves taking place in the world of Windows on Arm right now, and Xbox is likely to be swept up in the deluge.

For those who don't know, Arm is a UK-based company that licenses uniquely efficient chip designs to all sorts of manufacturers. Right now, Qualcomm has exclusive licenses to build chips for Windows devices based on the Arm architecture, rather than the more traditional x86 architecture, oft associated with AMD and Intel. However, Qualcomm's license is set to expire this year, opening up Arm to manufacturers like Intel, NVIDIA, and, indeed, AMD, who frequently partner with Microsoft to build console chipsets at scale. "

What does Xbox's 'biggest technological leap' future goal actually mean? An analysis. 🤔

Here's how Microsoft is moving forward on a plan to make its future Xbox platform more versatile than ever across Windows PC, cloud gaming, and consoles.

www.windowscentral.com

 

[DinoD]

I am very interested in this. Running Win 11 ARM (via Parallels) on my M2 Pro. Already getting very decent performance on x86-64 bins via emulation.

 

[bitbydeath]

Not going to create a separate thread, but Jez Corden is weighing in on this stuff as well, speculating on Microsoft's next moves in the gaming space.


"Speaking of emulation, there are huge moves taking place in the world of Windows on Arm right now, and Xbox is likely to be swept up in the deluge.

For those who don't know, Arm is a UK-based company that licenses uniquely efficient chip designs to all sorts of manufacturers. Right now, Qualcomm has exclusive licenses to build chips for Windows devices based on the Arm architecture, rather than the more traditional x86 architecture, oft associated with AMD and Intel. However, Qualcomm's license is set to expire this year, opening up Arm to manufacturers like Intel, NVIDIA, and, indeed, AMD, who frequently partner with Microsoft to build console chipsets at scale. "

What does Xbox's 'biggest technological leap' future goal actually mean? An analysis. 🤔

Here's how Microsoft is moving forward on a plan to make its future Xbox platform more versatile than ever across Windows PC, cloud gaming, and consoles.

www.windowscentral.com

Sounds like Xbox will be built-in with Windows moving forward. Curious how that will sit with third parties.

 

[StereoVsn]

Sounds like Xbox will be built-in with Windows moving forward. Curious how that will sit with third parties.

Maybe they will allow 3rd parties to make it. So you may have a Lenovo, Dell or ASUS Xbox.

Also, this is Jez Corden so that grain of salt is more like a mountain of salt here.

 

[StereoVsn]

I am very interested in this. Running Win 11 ARM (via Parallels) on my M2 Pro. Already getting very decent performance on x86-64 bins via emulation.

Wait, you are running ARM Windows through Parallels on your M2 Pro and then using x86 emulation within virtual machine? That’s pretty wild.

I should get Parallels but I hate that they went to subscription pricing.

 

[Topher]

Sounds like Xbox will be built-in with Windows moving forward. Curious how that will sit with third parties.

That's what it sounds like, doesn't it? When Phil Spencer was talking about having more than one store on a device, he referenced the early days of Windows where they made the decision to leave hardware to third parties.....

Maybe they will allow 3rd parties to make it. So you may have a Lenovo, Dell or ASUS Xbox.

Exactly

Also, this is Jez Corden so that grain of salt is more like a mountain of salt here.

Definitely. Seems he is parroting what others keep saying though. This kind of feels like the whole "cames going to other platforms" scenario again where Microsoft was leaving hints all over the place about what they were going to do. Would not be surprised if all this is "leaked" before the Xbox showcase in June.

 

[bitbydeath]

Customizable and DIY-friendly Cpu architecture that hosts 40+ years worth of games and gaming related software

is getting replaced by

a locked down cpu architecture who's equivalent to that are a bunch of mobile games and Nintendo Switch titles

This change is being spearheaded by one of the least repair friendly and most restrictive computer hardware companies around. (No, it's not microsoft) who up until recently never gave a shit about gaming and never done anything in the industry.

Gamers are, for some unfathomable reason, upset.

I don’t think we’ll see ARM replace x86, if we did then it’d leave the market wide open for Linux.

 

[yurinka]

This is probably a thread for off-topic.

Last time I checked Windows and ARM devices run games. In fact, MS may use both for their PC handheld console.

 

[MScarpa]

Seems like more and more the move to ARM is going to happen. Nvidia saw this and was why they tried to buy ARM. Thank goodness that didn't happen.

My gut tells me Xbox and Windows are on a collision course and ARM is what will tie them together ultimately.

Legit question but what happens to intel when ARM is now the defacto chip?

 

[DinoD]

Wait, you are running ARM Windows through Parallels on your M2 Pro and then using x86 emulation within virtual machine? That’s pretty wild.

I should get Parallels but I hate that they went to subscription pricing.

Yeah. They only retained once-off purchase for the standard edition which only supports 8 GB RAM and 4 VM's. Which locks u out of any fixes for problems introduced by each subsequent release of MacOS. I use X86 emulation for few windows apps that are still not compiled for ARM. They run quicker in emulation on Mac Pro than on my Surface Pro 7 i7 laptop.

 

[old-parts]

Legit question but what happens to intel when ARM is now the defacto chip?

Not much, Intel had made Arm chips in the past its old X-Scale series for example.

Arm is not Intel/AMD it's business is selling its CPU core designs to as many companies as possible or you can buy a license to build your own design.

If the tide were to turn then Intel can ship Arm CPU's just like everyone else.

Intel is not standing still, it is cutting some of the baggage from x86 with a new specification called x86S which drops 32-bit support and various other legacy parts of the x86 architecture to simplify it leaving it a pure 64-bit design.


As the OP's questions
1. No that would take most of the industry moving towards Arm, Qualcomm alone cannot do it but if AMD and Nvidia both go that way then possibly over time.
2. Probably, MS would be foolish to not leverage its AI tech on next console (not talking about upscaling but generative AI) but that's not bound to any CPU arch.
3. MS probably means something like game pass.

An Xbox Arm device be it handheld or console will have to emulate the back catalogue, but also could offer a virtualized windows arm desktop environment with full access to the CPU/GPU but still segmented away from the Xbox OS side. That could encourage various windows software devs to start generating Arm ports and offer some competition to the Steam Deck.

 

[Three]

Legit question but what happens to intel when ARM is now the defacto chip?

Intel has been doing relatively badly. They fought it but now they signed a $15B deal with MS to become a producer of ARM chips. At the same time the US has launched a chipwar with China. Banning them from technology to slow down their chipmaking efforts.

 

[Goalus]

HAHA you actually think that would have backwards compatibility?

HAHA you actually think MS is like Apple who f*** their customers each time they switch their hardware platform? MS will always ensure bc.

 

[ThatPolishGuy]

I get that AI is the new hotness but I could really do without it being in every single facet of my life. I want my OS to just operate, and if I want AI services and features I can open apps that are specific to that purpose. I detest the design of Windows 11, so I'd really just not prefer it get worse. I may have to finally give in and learn Linux now that gaming is actually getting feasible.

There's really nothing to learn with Linux. Memorise 3 to 4 commands for updating OS (or if you're lazy there's app for that in most distros), use Flatpak/Flathub it's a store with apps -> https://flathub.org

You can even copy command lines from there or install plugin so it works from UI store app.

Best userfriendly distros I used:
-POP OS (gaming focused, classic GNOME look dock look)
-Zorin OS (Windows look, a lot of apps already integrated, compatibility layers- to install deb files with one click or exe files, I did game on it a bit no problem.)
-Ubuntu Budgie (my favourite so far, most lightweight OS with dock although sometimes you have to use command lines more than on other distros).

I played some games through heroic games launcher from gog too, it autodowloaded newest recommended wine/proton libraries. There is option for cloud saves too.



Not my vid. It's already running through compatibility layer, so I don't see why on ARM it wouldn't be possible.

There are also Linux versions of some distros to run on ARM...

 

[Ozriel]

Windows on ARM has been around for a while, but it'll be interesting to see if Microsoft can make it stick this time. The issue remains giving up 99% of third party apps; not sure how you solve that seamlessly for the end user.

You solve it with x64 emulation. Which is already in place for WoA, and which Qualcomm says is performing better than Rosetta2 Apple used that got rave reviews.

I don’t think we’ll see ARM replace x86, if we did then it’d leave the market wide open for Linux.

If ARM replaced x86, Windows would continue to work as usual. Why would this leave any door open?

I have been working with MS for decades. I am currently working with them on multiple projects and their tendency to try and monopolize shit hasn’t changed.

They are more “open” in theory but when push comes to shove it’s all same crap with better PR.

And regulatory environment can change, especially in US.

Even if you handwave away the fact that locking down Windows makes no sense for Microsoft, no amount of regulatory change in the U.S. would allow Microsoft to lock down Windows. And the EU has designated Microsoft Windows as a ‘gatekeeper’, a designation Microsoft accepts and has cast iron commitments to keeping it open.

It’s certainly possible they’d pull Windows out of the U.S. and EU. Just not plausible in the slightest.

 

[Ozriel]

HAHA you actually think that would have backwards compatibility? WE have decades of x86 backwards compatibility which wouldn't work with arm. We also have decades of industry apps and programs.
It would also mean only microsoft walled garden store apps no actual desktop programs. Arm is fine for mobile use in edge cases, but not for gaming or industry.

Windows is used due to backwards compatibility and multi-use. Take that away, you may as well use a mac at that point. Ask apple fans how many games they have without having to dual boot.

My word, how are you people this uninformed about this stuff?

when Apple moved to ARM, they preserved backward compatibility with emulation. Microsoft has already done same with Windows on ARM, with x86 and x64 compatibility.

Those decades of x86 apps will work with the Snapdragon X Elite.

 

[bitbydeath]

If ARM replaced x86, Windows would continue to work as usual. Why would this leave any door open?

Wouldn’t it disrupt the market too much? All current X86 systems eventually losing out, possibly even losing support to ARM systems.

Maybe I’m wrong, it just sounds like a huge gamble.

 

[Topher]

HAHA you actually think MS is like Apple who f*** their customers each time they switch their hardware platform? MS will always ensure bc.

As O Ozriel mentions above, Apple accomplished BC through emulation. It was called Rosetta.

Rosetta (software) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Topher]

Legit question but what happens to intel when ARM is now the defacto chip?

Starting this year (or next, not sure), Intel and AMD can start making ARM chips for Windows. I imagine they will find ways to evolve.

 

[ZehDon]

You solve it with x64 emulation. Which is already in place for WoA, and which Qualcomm says is performing better than Rosetta2 Apple used that got rave reviews....

Apple always gets rave reviews. If you dig in, you'll encounter some stuff that simply doesn't work, and a good chunk of apps that run pretty slow. And the sheer volume of apps that Windows supports versus Mac means Microsoft's task is pretty damn herculean. Microsoft would need borderline perfect emulation if it wants to help transition the industry to ARM; all it takes is one or two core apps in your pipeline being knocked out and ARM is simply a non-starter for any organisation. If Microsoft pulls it off, I'd honestly be blown away.

 

[Punished Miku]

Apple always gets rave reviews. If you dig in, you'll encounter some stuff that simply doesn't work, and a good chunk of apps that run pretty slow. And the sheer volume of apps that Windows supports versus Mac means Microsoft's task is pretty damn herculean. Microsoft would need borderline perfect emulation if it wants to help transition the industry to ARM; all it takes is one or two core apps in your pipeline being knocked out and ARM is simply a non-starter for any organisation. If Microsoft pulls it off, I'd honestly be blown away.

"Chat-GPT, make some perfect emulation."

 

[Goalus]

As O Ozriel mentions above, Apple accomplished BC through emulation. It was called Rosetta.

Rosetta (software) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Did they also accomplish bc when moving from 32 bit to 64 bit on iPhone or moving from PowerPC to Intel x86?

 

[Topher]

Did they also accomplish bc when moving from 32 bit to 64 bit on iPhone or moving from PowerPC to Intel x86?

Believe iPhone required devs to post updates to their apps (same for Android it would seem), but yes, Rosetta was first created for PowerPC emulation. It is in the link I provided.

 

[Goalus]

Believe iPhone required devs to post updates to their apps,

In other words: they didn't ensure bc.

but yes, Rosetta was first created for PowerPC emulation. It is in the link I provided.

OK.

 

[twilo99]

Windows on ARM has been around for a while, but it'll be interesting to see if Microsoft can make it stick this time. The issue remains giving up 99% of third party apps; not sure how you solve that seamlessly for the end user.

Apple solved it with Rosetta 2

 

[Topher]

In other words: they didn't ensure bc.

For what it is worth, neither did Android.

 

[Ozriel]

Apple always gets rave reviews. If you dig in, you'll encounter some stuff that simply doesn't work, and a good chunk of apps that run pretty slow. And the sheer volume of apps that Windows supports versus Mac means Microsoft's task is pretty damn herculean. Microsoft would need borderline perfect emulation if it wants to help transition the industry to ARM; all it takes is one or two core apps in your pipeline being knocked out and ARM is simply a non-starter for any organisation. If Microsoft pulls it off, I'd honestly be blown away.

It’s not going to be perfect day one. The transition WILL be gradual and will be partial. You’ll have a mix of x86 and ARM for at least the next decade. Intel and AMD are still going to be making these chips and it’s likely gaming PCs will continue with x86 for quite some time to come.

Organizations that have legacy software will probably not be changing hardware. Most enterprise developers will make native ARM software along with x86 if this gains traction.

When Apple launched the M1, most third party apps were still x86 only and emulated. Now Adobe suite and most video and audio editing software are native ARM options.

You’ll probably get a stage where x86 and ARM builds are uploaded on Steam by devs, starting with the smaller guys.

 

[twilo99]

It’s not going to be perfect day one. The transition WILL be gradual and will be partial. You’ll have a mix of x86 and ARM for at least the next decade. Intel and AMD are still going to be making these chips and it’s likely gaming PCs will continue with x86 for quite some time to come.

Organizations that have legacy software will probably not be changing hardware. Most enterprise developers will make native ARM software along with x86 if this gains traction.

When Apple launched the M1, most third party apps were still x86 only and emulated. Now Adobe suite and most video and audio editing software are native ARM options.

You’ll probably get a stage where x86 and ARM builds are uploaded on Steam by devs, starting with the smaller guys.

That’s the key, you need a solid emulation layer in order to ease the actual transition. Apple, naturally, handled it extremely well.

 

[Kataploom]

It makes sense and in the long term is the best for consumers. The reason only AMD and Intel compete for PC CPU space is because of x86 license and ARM is an open standard.

The only issue is code compatibility, but performance shouldn't affect much to games since those are never CPU bound, any cheap CPU can suffice any low to mid (hell even many high) end rigs players. I could be wrong tho... I hope I'm not

 

[Topher]

That’s the key, you need a solid emulation layer in order to ease the actual transition. Apple, naturally, handled it extremely well.

Apple also had a much smaller user base and one far more forgiving. I think if Microsoft goes the ARM route then it will be in parallel with x86 for quite some time. They cannot afford to switch over in the same manner Apple did. The problem with this, however, is a slower adoption rate.

 

[Syphon Filter]

It’s not going to be perfect day one. The transition WILL be gradual and will be partial. You’ll have a mix of x86 and ARM for at least the next decade. Intel and AMD are still going to be making these chips and it’s likely gaming PCs will continue with x86 for quite some time to come.

Organizations that have legacy software will probably not be changing hardware. Most enterprise developers will make native ARM software along with x86 if this gains traction.

When Apple launched the M1, most third party apps were still x86 only and emulated. Now Adobe suite and most video and audio editing software are native ARM options.

You’ll probably get a stage where x86 and ARM builds are uploaded on Steam by devs, starting with the smaller guys.

That’s the key, you need a solid emulation layer in order to ease the actual transition. Apple, naturally, handled it extremely well.

emulation isn't ideal, native is.

 

[Roronoa Zoro]

Microsoft already dominates the X86 market. It's the ARM market that still eludes them.
So they have to make a push into ARM, to gain some relevant market share. But I doubt that Google and Apple will make their work easy.

Can't they just be happy dominating one market?

 

[winjer]

Can't they just be happy dominating one market?

It's Microsoft, they want to dominate everything.

 

[Topher]

It's Microsoft, they want to dominate everything.

That's been part of their DNA since the business opened their doors.

 

[twilo99]

emulation isn't ideal, native is.

I didn't say it was, it's the best stop gap during the "transition"

 

[XXL]

Maybe they will allow 3rd parties to make it. So you may have a Lenovo, Dell or ASUS Xbox.

Also, this is Jez Corden so that grain of salt is more like a mountain of salt here.

Check the date, this is all coming true.

Xbox is 100% going to be making 3rd party consoles/PCs in my opinion.

 

[Buggy Loop]

If windows gets ARM support, Nvidia will 100% enter with a CPU.

Hell, why not just a GPU? Nvidia also said that CPUs would benefit greatly from the parallel threading that GPUs offer.

Speaking on the topic of “AI: Trends, Challenges and Opportunities,” Huang claimed to be the first major semiconductor company head to claim that Moore’s Law is dead.

Since the CPU transistors have grown at an annual pace of 50%, the performance has only been enhanced by 10%, Huang said. As advanced parallel-instruction architectures for CPU can be barely worked out by designers, GPUs will soon replace CPUs, he added.

Huang also said that Nvidia’s GPUs are the perfect solution for AI-based applications, suggesting he believes GPUs are set to play a larger role in certain aspects of computing, rather than replacing desktop CPUs completely. He showed faith in Nvidia’s GPUs and claimed that they will be able to replace CPUs in the upcoming years.

 

[Roxkis_ii]

To what end? This would piss off so many of us.

All my old games going back decades are on x86 and still mostly work.
My work has custom programs going back decades that still work, SAP, lotus notes, mainframe, etc.... all use x86. The cost to retool and reprogram would be immense.

I get it for tablets, but not for desktop. Shit I would go full on linux if that was to happen.

Also this would probably be the end to open platorm, hello walled garden shitty windows store apps only. NO THANKS.

Off topic, but does lotus notes still have that one issue where if you change a particular setting, it destroys the current install??

I worked for a company right before they migrated to office from lotus notes and it was laughably bad in 2013.

 

[MScarpa]

Starting this year (or next, not sure), Intel and AMD can start making ARM chips for Windows. I imagine they will find ways to evolve.

O wow okay so ARM isn't a company its just a type of chip? Anyone can make ARM chips?

 

[Topher]

O wow okay so ARM isn't a company its just a type of chip? Anyone can make ARM chips?

Both. ARM is a company and a type of CPU. ARM sells licenses to other companies to make ARM chips. That's pretty much their entire business. Right now, only Qualcomm can make ARM chips for Windows since they have exclusive rights. That license agreement ends either this year or next and so then other companies will be able to get ARM licenses.

 

[MScarpa]

Both. ARM is a company and a type of CPU. ARM sells licenses to other companies to make ARM chips. That's pretty much their entire business. Right now, only Qualcomm can make ARM chips for Windows since they have exclusive rights. That license agreement ends either this year or next and so then other companies will be able to get ARM licenses.

I gotcha. So seems like ARM is kind of the future? Isn't Apples SoC kind of like ARM?

 

[Topher]

I gotcha. So seems like ARM is kind of the future? Isn't Apples SoC kind of like ARM?

Yep. ARM based as well. Definitely seems like everything is going that way.

 

[StereoVsn]

Check the date, this is all coming true.

Xbox is 100% going to be making 3rd party consoles/PCs in my opinion.

Thing is I wonder how that would affect pricing. Console vendors subsidize the cost of the device through game sales. Wonder if MS would share revenue then.

 

[XXL]

Thing is I wonder how that would affect pricing. Console vendors subsidize the cost of the device through game sales. Wonder if MS would share revenue then.

It doesn't seem viable to me.

It's seems like lots of investment and risk with not much reward for the 3rd party partner.

Which is not a great business model.

 

[Topher]

Thing is I wonder how that would affect pricing. Console vendors subsidize the cost of the device through game sales. Wonder if MS would share revenue then.

$1000 PC console hybrid. Only way I see it working.