PeteBull
Member
Yes, since ER launched on ps4 and 30% weaker xbox one s even
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Nintendo Switch 2 Motherboard leaked, confirms TSMC N6/SEC8N
Woopah
Member
I think Nintendo will want at least 2.5 hours of battery, but hopefully it has more than that.
Switch 2 has a custom chip while Switch did not. So the clocking requirements are not the same.
Negotiator
Member
TBH, Ampere is a bit of a power hog (kinda like Fermi 2.0) compared to Ada.
I hope it has some Ada features (like bigger L2), but I won't wold my breath...
onnextflix5
Member
No all the new switch’s have been using tsmc n6 for a few years now. Just seems odd they would downgrade to a larger node.
Muddy
Member
Steamdeck performs better than a PS4 Pro because it has a better CPU, RAM and Storage?
No CPU and RAM is closing the gap between the Steamdeck GPU and the PS4 Pro GPU.
PS4 Pro GPU is in another league.
Please.
Xdrive05
Member
Nah, I think they've been on 16nm as of the Mariko refresh.
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Deerock71
Member
Yes. Give us more Concords!
Zannegan
Member
All the same, better to assume the worst and potentially be pleasantly surprised. "Odd," and not always in a good way, pretty much covers Nintendo's design ethos from the past few generations.
I've been lurking here long enough to remember people discounting Arkam's Wii U leaks because "Nintendo would have had to try to put out something just on par with a 360," or "Nintendo couldn't create something with a weaker CPU than current gen!" And then reality hit.
I'm neither going to crow nor wring my hands in despair until we see its real-world performance, but if we get something on par with a PS4 in portable, I'll be pleased with the bump. But then, my expectations for hardware that has to fit in a portable chassis and run off of battery were never sky high.
Robb
Gold Member
Oh okay, so we shouldn’t expect them to downclock it this time? That’d be pretty great news.
Xdrive05
Member
We know it will have some Ada features. I think the power management (workload balancing) stuff is confirmed as well as the decompression block, but the Ada NVOFA will not be in there, so no DLSS3 Frame Gen support. Most likely the RTX cores and tensor cores are Ampere as well (?).
The larger L2 cache of Ada is not confirmed, but I would personally doubt it being there.
The larger L2 cache of Ada is not confirmed, but I would personally doubt it being there.
LavitzSlambert
Member
If they’re relying on DLSS for upscaling in docked mode and they don’t need to worry about anything beyond 1080p for handheld, I have zero concerns about the RAM. They’ll keep battery drain low and probably still get similar performance to the newest Steam Deck with better battery life.
Isn't Switch already using NVDA gpu?
Gamer_By_Proxy
Member
No scorpio logo or Phil’s signature? I thought this was an Xbox.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Yep, that's a RTX 40 series chip right there. Remember the people saying Switch 2 would have a worst GPU than Steam Deck?
I remember
.
Anyway, I'm just looking forward to the official reveal, hopefully it's sometime this month. I'm ready!
Curious if Switch 2 will have a decompression engine like PS5 & Series X & S.
I remember
.Anyway, I'm just looking forward to the official reveal, hopefully it's sometime this month. I'm ready!
Curious if Switch 2 will have a decompression engine like PS5 & Series X & S.
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ReBurn
Gold Member
Before or after they're placed in a hydraulic press?
Negotiator
Member
When you plan to sell millions of units, the cost is not negligible. #logistics
Also, their plan is to match XBOX Series S (the SSD/UFS speed indicates that) for current-gen 3rd party ports (should be coming until 2030, even after PS6 releases we'll have cross-gen games), so 12GB is plenty enough (XSS only has 10GB).
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Negotiator
Member
16GB is fine for PS5/XSX, considering they utilize a fast SSD storage system (too bad PCs don't utilize DirectStorage that much).
PS4 as a console was a historical anomaly (8GB GDDR5 in 2013) and that's because it had a slow HDD (still faster than PS3's 2x BD-ROM, but way slower than an SSD).
Consoles/arcade coin-op boards back in the day (8-16 bit era) had the exact same philosophy (small RAM + fast ROM), but I guess most people are too young to remember.
Trust me, it would have been a lot worse for PCMR folks (VRAM debates) if PS5/XSX had shipped with 24-32GB RAM... 8GB VRAM is already not enough for some console ports.
Switch doesn't need much RAM, 12GB is plenty enough for a mobile/hybrid device that will surely utilize a custom DirectStorage-style solution via the Nintendo OS/API.
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Little Mac
Member
I’m late to the party. Does this leak make us happy or upset?
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
We'll have to wait and see.
I think Nintendo will pull down their trousers and unleash their big dick energy.
RodriGames40
Member
It's now low bandwidth, it has as much as a Rog Ally X and potentially more, since the memory modules are rated for beyond 7500mt/s.
Negotiator
Member
IMHO, people should stop using TFlop metrics (Bit Wars Vol2) to compare totally different architectures.
XSS is not "equal" to PS4 Pro, just because both of them are 4TF FP32 when it comes to compute.
XSS is a lot faster (RDNA2 vs GCN/Polaris) and it shows both in games (Gears 5 @ 1440p 120 fps) and loading times (100MB/s vs 2400 MB/s).
That's why they belong in different generations.
Switch 2 will be a current-gen machine and with nVidia's DLSS magic it's going to punch above its weight.
Raw TFlops don't matter that much and we already know that judging by PCMR debates such as nVidia Ada vs RDNA3.
Don't forget that DLSS is a mature technology, unlike PSSR which still has teething issues (like DLSS back in 2018) and is exclusive to PS5 Pro (PS6 beta testing/next-gen testbed for Sony/AMD -> Project Amethyst).
Deerock71
Member
In a nutshell...a PS4 Pro with DLSS sounds pretty damn awesome to me.
LordOcidax
Member
N1tr0sOx1d3
Given another chance
Agreed. Not a case of if, a case of when. The handheld technology progression is going to explode. Mobile chips are going to see impressive gains gen on gen. All eating into Nintendo’ lion share.
And if Nintendo don’t adapt, people will adapt for them through emulation. Not saying it’s right, but it will happen.
Nintendo is a 1st party company.
I’m kidding. Probably a lot will run thanks to DLSS.
It’s fine, hardware is going to be very capable even if clocks will be lower than the best case scenario.
Negotiator
Member
Don't forget the Wii U which was designed around XBOX 360's paradigm (3-core PowerPC CPU, Radeon GPU with eDRAM) for easy porting (well, at least it got some 3rd party ports in the beginning).
And no, I'm not saying Switch 2 will flop like Wii U, in fact I expect it to sell pretty well, just because there is no new gimmick/form factor this time around. Switch is a proven and tried formula, no need for big changes.
I'm just saying Nintendo has also done this in the past (despite the fact the concept backfired, or should I say Wii U was the progenitor of streaming consoles -> too early to catch on).
Zannegan
Member
Yes
Hyet
Member
This doest mean it's their prioritized market, it means it did a better job catering to it while shifting their focus to a global western audience like every single company did. The idea that Nintendo became a multi billion dollar IP entertainment company catering to a shrinking Japanese market is absurd. Playstation left a void and Nintendo took it while making most of their money on the americas. Close Famitsu and read their financial reports instead.
If it's really 8nm, then we would expect it to be significantly bigger than 200 mm^2. The 12 core Jetson AGX Orin with 33% more SMs is 448 mm^2, so 2/3rd of that would be ~300 mm^2.
Luminoth-4545
Member
Updated. Also for hardware the U.S makes up about 83% of the Switch total for the Americas region.
Hardware shipments in millions
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Negotiator
Member
Source?
I remember Switch Lite using TSMC's 16nm (double battery life compared to OG Switch), but no news about 6nm AFAIK.
TBH, wafer logistics are a bit tricky and lower nm doesn't always mean what you think.
PS5 Slim (6nm) consumes 10-15 watts more than OG PS5 (7nm). How do you explain this one?
PS5 Pro uses 4nm, which is a bit unusual compared to the PS4 era (both PS4 Slim and PS4 Pro used the exact same 16nm process).
It seems Sony would rather use a cheaper process for a cheaper machine, so perhaps Nintendo is doing the same to keep the $400 price point?
That's why I'm saying wafer logistics is a tricky business, especially with the AI boom.
Either way, I think Samsung's 8nm is probably spot on, especially considering the fact nVidia's Ampere GPUs used the same process.
It's also a pretty big ass die for a mobile device (how many mm2? any measurements?). Reminds me of Ampere/30XX GPUs on PCs vs Ada (smaller dies, but more efficient).
Maybe Switch 2 isn't as power efficient as Switch 1, maybe it could be more like Game Gear vs Game Boy...
I've also noticed a more beefy cooling system (2 fans vs 1 fan on Switch) and perhaps more copper heatpipes. I expect a higher TDP overall.
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ShadyAcshuns
Member
What about the father board and kiddie boards?
CamHostage
Member
Supposedly so, as of the 2023 leaks. There are only so many acronyms in this leak soup I can understand, but NVIDIA mobile-line chips do have a block of its FDE (File Decompression Engine.)
Inside Nvidia's new hardware for Switch 2: what is the T239 processor?
What new hardware has Nvidia cooked up for Nintendo? Digital Foundry puts together all available info on the cutting-edge T239 processor.
www.eurogamer.net
On the actual storage container, a newer UFS 4.0 module would offer a few features which might or might not address file handling speed (the new ones have stuff like a little AI module running what's called OBE to kind of defrag and error correction, but I don't know that this would matter for compiled apps in a gaming situation,) and also bring the storage format closer to the insane speeds of a top SSD. So, I don't know if this spec list is current (if even accurate,) it would be nice if possible if the newest UFS did make it in but it wouldn't ruin it if not. (Nintendo doesn't usually splurge for top-of-the-line in most respects as it is, and even the newest Google Pixels still went with 3.1, so it's unlikely to change if these specs are factual.)
That said, the speed here of a UFS 3.1 storage unit and a file decompression system would get done a lot of what modern games demand and can offer as a showcase feature-wise (supposedly the earliest Switch 2 demos had BOTW with no loadtimes, sort of like Sony's PS5 Spidey demo) and should be a good time compared to Switch 1.
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Radical_3d
Member
Woopah
Member
The chip is being built for Nintendo specifically. Wouldn't make much sense for Nintendo to pay Nvudia to create something much more powerful than they need, only to significantly downclock it.
This is for TV mode of course. Will probably be downclocked for handheld mode.
It does indeed have a File Decompression Engine.Yep, that's a RTX 40 series chip right there. Remember the people saying Switch 2 would have a worst GPU than Steam Deck?
I remember
Anyway, I'm just looking forward to the official reveal, hopefully it's sometime this month. I'm ready!
Curious if Switch 2 will have a decompression engine like PS5 & Series X & S.
I mean yeah, Sony is a 2nd party company and Microsoft is a 3rd party company.
Negotiator
Member
Switch 1 released in 2017 (20nm SoC, 118mm2):
NVIDIA Switch GPU 20nm Specs
NVIDIA GM20B, 768 MHz, 256 Cores, 16 TMUs, 16 ROPs, 4096 MB DDR4, 1600 MHz, 64 bit
Switch 1 revision (16nm SoC, 100 mm2):
NVIDIA Switch GPU 16nm Specs
NVIDIA GM20B, 768 MHz, 256 Cores, 16 TMUs, 16 ROPs, 4096 MB DDR4, 1600 MHz, 64 bit
Switch 2 (could be 300-400mm2? Samsung 8nm wafers are dirt cheap):
Guys, I think we're in for a treat.
Even smartphones don't have such a big die...
I'm surprised nobody has tried to measure it judging by pixels. Where's Digital Foundry?!
With a beefy cooling system (2 fans) and a bigger battery they could sustain higher clocks. It could get a bit hot in touch, but that's it.
Increasing the MSRP by $100 should help...
I don't see why it wouldn't.
Turbo boosting CPU clocks a la Switch 1 isn't the best strategy.
Not gonna happen, unless Nintendo decides to release their 1st party games on Android/iOS.
The experience you get (and I don't mean just graphics, but also haptic feedback and gyro) on a console is not easy to replicate via emulation.
Also, Switch 2 will have 120 GB/s of memory bandwidth, which is way above compared to mobile devices. Poco X6 Pro barely reaches 68 GB/s (around Xbone's DDR3).
We still haven't seen working PS4/XB1 emulators, unlike PS3/XBOX 360. It's still too early.
Ampere in general has lower clocks compared to Ada.
Backporting Ada features (such as optical flow accelerator to DLSS3) sounds pretty good to me.Supposedly so, as of the 2023 leaks. There are only so many acronyms in this leak soup I can understand, but NVIDIA mobile-line chips do have a block of its FDE (File Decompression Engine.)
Inside Nvidia's new hardware for Switch 2: what is the T239 processor?
What new hardware has Nvidia cooked up for Nintendo? Digital Foundry puts together all available info on the cutting-edge T239 processor.
On the actual storage container, a newer UFS 4.0 module would offer a few features which might or might not address file handling speed (the new ones have stuff like a little AI module running what's called OBE to kind of defrag, but I don't know that this would matter for compiled apps in a gaming situation,) and also bring the storage format closer to the insane speeds of a top SSD. That said, the speed of a UFS 3.1 storage unit and a file decompression system should be a good time compared to Switch 1.
Can't wait to see Mr Leather Jacket Man commenting on Switch 2 SoC capabilities! Maybe he could give a hint or two in CES 2025?
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SirTerry-T
Member
As long as it's powerful enough to run Nintendo games as the designers want them to run, everything else is a mute point. No one buys Nintendo hardware for the third party support.
Trogdor1123
Member
Its a hybrid system. When in handheld mode, it will be. Price for performance baby.Nintendo Hardware and beast. Good one.
Kataploom
Gold Member
It is if we take into consideration switch2 just like og switch, is handheld hardware at its core, including powerdraw:
quick comparision powerdraw of og switch:
undocked with battery pack: 9W
Docked:11W
Docked and uncharged(so its charing itself while playing): 16W w/o joycons, 18W with joycons
Playing With Power: A Look At Nintendo Switch Power Consumption
www.anandtech.com
Now quick comparision to stationary consoles:
seriesX
peak 211 on gears5 (most games around 160W avg)
Xbox Series X thermal and power analysis: how efficient is next-gen?
UPDATE: For the authoritative take on Microsoft's new flagship console, Digital Foundry's full Xbox Series X review is …
seriesS
peak 83 on gears5 (most games around 60-70W avg)
Xbox Series S review: next-gen gaming on a budget - and in style
Digital Foundry presents the definitive verdict on an entirely new type of games console - Microsoft's junior Series machine, which aims to bring you the same g
launch ps5:
peak 220W
ps5slim:
peak235W
ps5pr0:
peak240W
It simply isnt feassible to demand similar lvl of graphical power from 240W peak powerdraw ps5pr0 vs around 20-25W switch2(if that), so 10x less powerdraw, roughly.
Even series S has over 80W peak powerdraw so switch2 gonna draw at least 3 maybe even 4x less in docked mode...
I don't think the comparison should be this straightforward.
I'm not saying Switch 2 is gonna be as powerful pixel for pixel as the XSS, but there are some key differences:
- x86 vs ARM
- AMD vs Nvidia
- GDDR5 vs LPDDR5X
- PCI-e vs UFS storage
- T239 is a custom chip created for Switch 2 which has everything not useful for gaming removed, contrary to the Tegra X1 un the current Switch
Also consider how much power draws Wii U vs Switch, or latest PS360 revisions vs Switch, yet Switch is much more powerful than those.
squidilix
Member
And are your sure you don't mix the TeraFlop (AMD) and the new bullshit marketing Nvidia doing naming his card TF (but in reality is TensorFlop)
PS4 Pro is not very behind the Xbox Series S. Even in some ways, One X doing a better job than the Series S (Resolution, Texture in some ways)
The only thing save the Series S (Framerate, loading) from is weak GPU is the CPU/SSD, very more powerful than the Jaguar CPU on PS4 Pro / One X with HDD (and explain with some game runs better than the One X / PS4 Pro with high/stable frame rate)
But Switch 2 haven't CPU Ryzen, so the "Dream of Powerful like Series S and 60fps at 900p/1080p for current gen" is already dead.
MrCunningham
Member
Oh and TW for Taiwan does not mean TSMC
Samsung chips are packaged in Taiwan
Ampere cards
In fact, if the image is legit, S on that chip means Samsung.
I'm not going to lie here. We live in an age where chatGPT exists, and I simply asked it to decode: "s tw 24 snw8vf mop" for me. ChatGPT's response is...
"The chip labeled "S TW 24 SNW8VF MOP GMLX30-R-A1" is believed to be an NVIDIA Tegra system-on-chip (SoC) intended for the upcoming Nintendo Switch 2 console. The prefix "S" suggests that Samsung is the manufacturer, as NVIDIA has historically used "S" to denote Samsung and "P" for TSMC. The code "SNW8VF" indicates that the chip is produced using Samsung's 8nm process technology."
So yeah, manufactured by Samsung, uses an 8NM process. ChatGPT is basically a smart search at this point. These days I find it more useful than Google.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
Guess what guys. It's a motherboard for a system that will be severely underpowered compared to other consoles available but it will have arguably the best first party games of any of them.
Basically, DAY FUCKING 0!
LET's A GOOOOOO!
Basically, DAY FUCKING 0!
LET's A GOOOOOO!
Negotiator
Member
1) I don't. I mentioned FP32 compute metrics (4TF) in case you didn't notice.
Tensor cores are separate units and we measure them in TOPS. nVidia is still a lot faster and more efficient either way, whether we're talking about rasterization, RT or AI. AMD has fallen behind, sadly.
For me, the only bullshit here is measuring dual-issue (kinda like hyperthreading on CPUs) TeraFlops ("33.4TF" on PS5 Pro) and I'm glad both Mark Cerny and PS5's Pro manual mention the real number (16.7TF).
Even in that case 16.7TF + PSSR (assuming it works well) should perform a lot better than 10.2TF with no PSSR, at least in GPU-bound games.
For now we have to accept that AI upscaling is a rarity in home consoles (Microsoft doesn't even have it) and FSR is the norm.
This won't be the case on Switch 2: all games (especially 1st party ones) will support DLSS by default. Maybe 3rd party ports too (assuming there's a DLSS codepath in the PC version).
2) Resolution means nothing when you're forced to play at 30 fps and wait for the HDD to load the assets, especially in big open-world games.
3) Who told you that ARM cores cannot compete against cut-down Zen cores (less cache, less SIMD width)?
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James Sawyer Ford
Member
at worse quality than an Xbox Series S, so yeah it can "play them"
asdasdasdbb
Member
Samsung 8 nm was always going to be the favorite. The talk of Nintendo using TSMC N4 looked pretty silly.
Nintendo is cheap.
Nintendo is cheap.