Support NeoGAF

[Vinci]

Agreed. America went through an anime phase that now seems to be over for the mainstream.

There's a difference between anime or Japanese style products in general, and ones that highlight or resemble fetishism or perverse qualities the country has. Seriously, I don't see why people don't see the difference here. There are many Japanese manga and anime that are still popular over here, but the love affair portion of the Japanese Culture Invasion is over and we're basically ignoring anything housed in more questionable taste.

 

[Ristlager]

Bayonettas biggest problems are (imo):
Female lead, exept Lara Croft, there hasn't been a good selling female lead game.

The first few chapters are plagued with embarisingly bad cutscenes with little to do.

Normal is to hard for casuals, and thus stopping it before they get to learn the mechanics. Easy should be normal and normal should be hard, that would have made it easier for the casuals to get further in the game and seeing what a good game it is.

And overly sexual, making it not a game you play infront of your family.

 

[Shiggy]

Kind of sounds fair to me, just unhealthy though interesting either way.

Though does not only show that the industry is unhealthy but also that most - if not all - third party publishers have some of the worst business strategies one could imagine.

 

[Vinci]

I think the art style is just plain worse than DMC's TBH. Turned a lot of people off.

It's not the art style. It's the blatant sexualization and fan-service. People don't want to play that shit.

 

[mugurumakensei]

Bayonettas biggest problems are (imo):
Female lead, exept Lara Croft, there hasn't been a good selling female lead game.

Metroid has Samus Aran.

 

[WillyFive]

Metroid has Samus Aran.

But Samus isn't implicit Female. To someone who doesn't know anything about the series, it's about an orange Master Chief.

 

[LosDaddie]

There's a difference between anime or Japanese style products in general, and ones that highlight or resemble fetishism or perverse qualities the country has. Seriously, I don't see why people don't see the difference here. There are many Japanese manga and anime that are still popular over here, but the love affair portion of the Japanese Culture Invasion is over and we're basically ignoring anything housed in more questionable taste.

Well speaking for myself, most of it just doesn't appeal to me anymore. I haven't watched anime in at least 3yrs.

 

[LosDaddie]

And overly sexual, making it not a game you play infront of your family.

Who plays in front of others these days though?

Personally, I just don't think Bayonetta has mainstream appeal. EDIT: But I'll eventually play Bayonetta since I love crazy action games.

 

[Penguin]

Well...

Well if that is correct, I assume NSMBW will knock off Gran Turismo.

Nintendo will have....18 of the top 20 selling games of all time.

 

[Vinci]

Well speaking for myself, most of it just doesn't appeal to me anymore. I haven't watched anime in at least 3yrs.

But are you turned off from a game that just happens to use anime-esque designs? Did you ignore Valkyria Chronicles for that? I agreed that the love affair is over, but all that means is that we're not accepting anything and everything anymore. We're more choosy now, and more often than not your average American doesn't have much interest in a game as fan-service based as Bayonetta. American gamers and Japanese gamers are not alike.

 

[Mael]

Though does not only show that the industry is unhealthy but also that most - if not all - third party publishers have some of the worst business strategies one could imagine.

Which beg the question why we should expect them to succeed in the 1rst place?

Who plays in front of others these days though?

Looking at Wii rising to heaven....I'd say quite a lot of people.
I don't know about you but my friends and I actually show each other the games we play.
Heck why did people buy Guitar Hero at all?

 

[gutter_trash]

Japanese 3rd parties IMO are struggling with this gen.

i love those games, but I feel that they are getting more niche not because they want to but because the market is changing turning them into niche

It is sad because we are going to get drowned by ''realistic'' western games more and more and we will see less and less Japanese-y games like we saw during the PS1, PS2 gens

 

[LosDaddie]

But are you turned off from a game that just happens to use anime-esque designs?

A lot of the time, yes. But it depends on the game.

 

[Ashour]

I'm so glad GoW Collection made it to the top 20. Hopefully more will jump on the idea

 

[Road]

I only have data from January 05 onwards.

A list of every new release that broke 100k in January:

January 05 (pre-leak ban, figures posted on GAF):
Resident Evil 4 (GCN) ~300k
Zelda Minish Cap (GBA) ~220k
Mercenaries (Xbox) ~200k
Mercenaries (PS2) ~175k

January 06 (pre-leak ban, figures posted on GAF):
MVP 06 NCAA Baseball (PS2) ~100k

January 07 (post-leak ban, figures posted all over the internet):
Lost Planet (360) ~325k
WarioWare: Smooth Moves (Wii) ~200k

January 08 (post-leak ban, NPD public top 10; #10 cut off at 133k and no misc leaked figures had debuts over 100k):
Burnout Paradise (360) 144.1k
Mario and Sonic Beijing Olympics (DS) 133k

January 09 (" #10 cut off at 113k)
Skate 2 (360) 199k
Lord of the Rings: Conquest (360) 113k

January 10 (Public top 10 + PS3forums leaked numbers)
Mass Effect 2 (360) 572.1k
Army of Tutu (360) 246.5k
Darksiders (360) 171.2k
+MAG PS3 ~150k
+Darksiders PS3 ~130k
+Bayonetta 360 ~100k
+Army of Two PS3? This hasn't been leaked but logically even at a 2:1 360S3 ratio, that puts it above 100k.

Info I could find through Google:

January 04
NFL Street (PS2) >325k
NFL Street (XBX) ~140k
Sonic Heroes (GCN) ~200k

NFL Street PS2 was allegedly the previous record, but Lost Planet actually sold over 400k. I guess they forgot the CE edition of LP.

 

[Kenaras]

I think there's more americans willing to buy japanese game than the contrary.Of course,the interest is nowhere near what it once was and it's a super niche audience nowadays.Nintendo was and is still the exception to the rule as always ( I can also include Capcom,but their art style is appealing to international audiences)

The same is happening all over the world,expect for some asian country where it will take some time.Even France which used to live and breathe japanese games have all these generic bald space marine on their mag cover. :lol

I believe the mass migration of top-tier Western developers from PCs to consoles also played a significant role.

 

[LosDaddie]

Looking at Wii rising to heaven....I'd say quite a lot of people.

True, but the top-selling Wii games are designed for local MP. Thus, playing in front of/with other people is encouraged. The same does not hold true for games like Bayonetta.

I don't know about you but my friends and I actually show each other the games we play.

Sure I did....when I was younger. These days, I mainly game at night after the wife & baby are asleep.

It is sad because we are going to get drowned by ''realistic'' western games more and more and we will see less and less Japanese-y games like we saw during the PS1, PS2 gens

That's not sad to me.:lol

 

[Kai Dracon]

It's not the art style. It's the blatant sexualization and fan-service. People don't want to play that shit.

Correction. Western males age 18 - 30 don't want uncomfortably pointed satire of blatant sexualization of female characters, when said female is a domimatrix who superficially embodies fan-service, but upon closer inspection holds said male personalities in mild contempt and cannot be fantasized about. Also, the character's personality is sly, intelligent, and confident, and more capable and imposing than any of the while males in the story. (The only truly imposing male is literally a black man from hell.)

Manboys are afraid of playing Bayonetta in front of other people because it highlights the absurdity of eastern and western videogame fetishisms quite on purpose.

The opening cut scene (and most of them) are probably some of the most genuinely hilarious shit that's been in a video game in years.

The problem here, is that guys are taking their videogames so seriously, that they really cannot take certain kinds of jokes and get red in the face.

The main thing to criticize in Bayonetta isn't the style or quality of its characters and cut scenes, but merely their length. It goes so far to play out its joke that the cinemas are a bit long in the tooth in many cases; a little overzealousness there.

But the horror directed at the from some folks, is a little like going to see The Grindhouse at a theater and being offended at the bad acting, dialog, and stereotypical exploitation characters.

 

[Vinci]

Correction. Western males age 18 - 30 don't want uncomfortably pointed satire of blatant sexualization of female characters, when said female is a domimatrix who superficially embodies fan-service, but upon closer inspection holds said male personalities in mild contempt and cannot be fantasized about.

I'm not disagreeing with you, man. Whether it's a parody or not, it's what people see in the commercials, the ads, and box-art. They see it going so far and think, "Friggin' Japanese people are total perverts," and they themselves don't want to be connected to that.

 

[jmdajr]

It's not the art style. It's the blatant sexualization and fan-service. People don't want to play that shit.

I think people are more comfortable watching all out porn than the softcore/teaser stuff.
Obviously not in front of other people, but I mean it's borderline enough that people feel they can't be seen playing something like it.

Interesting how the west is shunning Japanese games, but the Japanese have done that to the west since eons ago.

 

[kitzkozan]

Japanese 3rd parties IMO are struggling with this gen.

i love those games, but I feel that they are getting more niche not because they want to but because the market is changing turning them into niche

It is sad because we are going to get drowned by ''realistic'' western games more and more and we will see less and less Japanese-y games like we saw during the PS1, PS2 gens

It's not such a bad thing imo.

I think it's for the better,since the typical gaming drought of the past are now gone.There's always an interesting game coming out imo.It's all thanks to the western developers who are injecting a lot of game into the console market.

Of course,it's probably terrible if you only play japanese made game. :lol I used to hate western made game a couple of years ago,but it's what I mostly play these days and I learned to appreciate all the great game that we produce.

 

[LosDaddie]

I think people are more comfortable watching all out porn than the softcore/teaser stuff.
Obviously not in front of other people, but I mean it's borderline enough that people feel they can't be seen playing something like it.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't care what people see me play. Never have.

So I really doubt the supposed embarassment of being seen playing a game like Bayonetta is a significant factor of its low sales. Like I said before, I just don't think it's a game with mainstream appeal.

 

[SlipperySlope]

What was the budget for the game?

[units sold] * [$60] = Revenue

[Revenue] - [budget] = a good place to start for profitability rough estimates

[Revenue] - [budget] - [Retailer/Production/Distribution costs] would be a little more accurate.

 

[jmdajr]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't care what people see me play. Never have.

So I really doubt the supposed embarassment of being seen playing a game like Bayonetta is a significant factor of its low sales. Like I said before, I just don't think it's a game with mainstream appeal.

Yup, I play it in front of my fiance. Tell you the truth she doesn't even pay attention :lol
Overall it's not a surprise that it wasn't a huge success. I just think after playing the game it has a lot to offer. It will just be a cult it at most I believe.

 

[Vinci]

Interesting how the west is shunning Japanese games, but the Japanese have done that to the west since eons ago.

That's really interesting considering there's four in the Top 10 in January.

EDIT: How do you guys define mainstream appeal and Bayonetta's lack of it?

 

[jmdajr]

That's really interesting considering there's four in the Top 10 in January.

EDIT: How do you guys define mainstream appeal and Bayonetta's lack of it?

heh...I don't really count those :\
They might be japanese but they don't FEEL like it

 

[Kusagari]

Bayonettas biggest problems are (imo):
Female lead, exept Lara Croft, there hasn't been a good selling female lead game.

The first few chapters are plagued with embarisingly bad cutscenes with little to do.

Normal is to hard for casuals, and thus stopping it before they get to learn the mechanics. Easy should be normal and normal should be hard, that would have made it easier for the casuals to get further in the game and seeing what a good game it is.

And overly sexual, making it not a game you play infront of your family.

:lol at citing Bayonetta's difficulty as part of it's problem selling. It is far easier than DMC or Ninja Gaiden. If the Ninja Gaiden games can sell 300k+ in their debut months on just 360 then Bayonetta could have.

 

[Kintaro]

Seems the Pach Attack blames Nintendo for this month's numbers.

Gamasutra:

NPD results for January fell far below analyst expectations -- although most had widely forecast a single-digit decline, weakened software sales led to a 13 percent year over year overall slump.

"It seems that monthly software sales declines will never end, with January marking the 10 month of sales declines in the last 11," says Wedbush's Michael Pachter, saying a return to double-digit decline is "disconcerting."

"The magnitude of the decline in the face of a solid software lineup gives us pause," he says, chalking up some of the large decline to "lackluster" Wii sales -- which he blames on supply constraints. Nintendo recently conceded that maintaining Wii inventory has been a 'challenge' recently.

"Nintendo’s monthly hardware sales have been quite volatile, with outrageously high figures in December for the DS (3.3 million, up 9 percent year-over-year) and Wii (3.8 million, up 77 percent) followed by outrageously low figures in January (down 17 percent and down 77% percent respectively)," Pachter notes.

"The combined decline in Wii and DS hardware was over 300,000 units, suggesting that the two Nintendo platforms contributed to a year-over-year decline of around $30 million in software sales overall," he adds.

Cowen Group analyst Doug Creutz says instead the decline is caused by lower-than-expected software unit sales and weak catalog sales: He'd estimated 825,000 units for Electronic Arts and BioWare's Mass Effect, but the title only moved 624,000 units, for example.

He says Army of Two: The 40th Day as well as THQ's Darksiders are other examples of underperforming titles, and notes Activision also saw a sales decline larger than estimated.

Is it really all on Nintendo's shoulders to carry the video game industry now? Even though no 3rd party wants a bother with them? That would really be a strange twist of fate.

Sorry if old.

 

[Vinci]

Seems the Pach Attack blames Nintendo for this month's numbers.

Gamasutra:



Is it really all on Nintendo's shoulders to carry the video game industry now?

Yup. If Nintendo fails, the whole damn industry's dead. Nevermind the record-breaking performance last month that makes restocking the system well in January impossible.

 

[Grecco]

It's not the art style. It's the blatant sexualization and fan-service. People don't want to play that shit.

Hasnt hurt DOA>

 

[GaimeGuy]

Pachter's statement makes no fucking sense.

 

[Road]

Is it really all on Nintendo's shoulders to carry the video game industry now?

"With great power comes great responsibility."

 

[Spiegel]

Seems the Pach Attack blames Nintendo for this month's numbers.

Gamasutra:



Is it really all on Nintendo's shoulders to carry the video game industry now? Even though no 3rd party wants a bother with them? That would really be a strange twist of fate.

Sorry if old.

"He'd estimated 825,000 units for Electronic Arts and BioWare's Mass Effect, but the title only moved 624,000 units, for example."

So Mass Effect 2 PC sold 52k

MASS EFFECT 2* 360 ELECTRONIC ARTS Jan-10 572.1K

 

[Penguin]

Seems the Pach Attack blames Nintendo for this month's numbers.

Gamasutra:



Is it really all on Nintendo's shoulders to carry the video game industry now? Even though no 3rd party wants a bother with them? That would really be a strange twist of fate.

Sorry if old.

How static would is the industry growth without the Wii?
Lower?Higher? About the same?

 

[Stumpokapow]

"He'd estimated 825,000 units for Electronic Arts and BioWare's Mass Effect, but the title only moved 624,000 units, for example."

So Mass Effect 2 PC sold 52k

MASS EFFECT 2* 360 ELECTRONIC ARTS Jan-10 572.1K

Also note that while the top 10 number includes both the regular and collector's edition, NPD reports them separately. I'd guess that the 360 ratio was probably around 4:1 or 5:1 if it was in line with previous collectors editions, while the PC ratio would be around 2:1 or 3:1 (because many PC buyers buy online but deluxe edition types generally don't, so the retail Regular:CE will be closer than on consoles)

Pachter's statement makes no fucking sense.

January 08;
Apples 20 units
Oranges 24 units
Pears 120 units

January 09;
Apples 21 units
Oranges 23 units
Pears 65 units

which is responsible for the decline in overall fruit sales between 08 and 09

 

[legend166]

I do find it interesting no one seems to want to give Nintendo credit, but are willing blame them for a decline.


Plus, it shows how much the landscape has changed when 465k units is described as 'outrageously low'.

 

[justchris]

Japanese 3rd parties IMO are struggling with this gen.

i love those games, but I feel that they are getting more niche not because they want to but because the market is changing turning them into niche

It is sad because we are going to get drowned by ''realistic'' western games more and more and we will see less and less Japanese-y games like we saw during the PS1, PS2 gens

The thing about markets is that they're constantly changing. Bald space marines won't be popular forever. You just have to wait it out, and something else will be the big thing.

 

[Version 3.0]

January 08;
Apples 20 units
Oranges 24 units
Pears 120 units

January 09;
Apples 21 units
Oranges 23 units
Pears 65 units

which is responsible for the decline in overall fruit sales between 08 and 09

Well, sure. But it's a bit odd to "blame" the pears when:

A) it was the pears' record-setting season last year that set the bar so high
B) the 65 units of pear sales is the 3rd highest ever of any fruit
C) anyone with a single brain cell knew it was coming

Also, if demand for pears is down, then shouldn't the apple and orange vendors be working to pick up the slack and make some gains?

 

[D.Lo]

I do find it interesting no one seems to want to give Nintendo credit, but are willing blame them for a decline.

Pretty much, anti-Nintendo bias is the only thing that truly makes sense of much of the behavior of 3rd parties, analysts and the media.

Plus, it shows how much the landscape has changed when 465k units is described as 'outrageously low'.

For January too, with multiple big releases elsewhere, it's insane.

 

[SuperSonic1305]

Good to see Wii Play still charting after all these years.

Good to see?

 

[Mariah Carey]

How static would is the industry growth without the Wii?
Lower?Higher? About the same?

 

[mugurumakensei]

Iwata: (laughs)
It's amazing to think how stagnant the industry, in terms of growth, would have been if not for Nintendo.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

Iwata: (laughs)
It's amazing to think how stagnant the industry, in terms of growth, would have been if not for Nintendo.

Preteens, male teenagers, and young adult males can only drive an industry so far.

 

[demosthenes]

Iwata: (laughs)
It's amazing to think how stagnant the industry, in terms of growth, would have been if not for Nintendo.

Everyone else: (laughs)

Pretty silly to say the picture would be the exact same without Nintendo in there, that the industry would have only grown that little.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

How about the industry minus Nintendo? Did it expand or retract?

 

[Ristlager]

:lol at citing Bayonetta's difficulty as part of it's problem selling. It is far easier than DMC or Ninja Gaiden. If the Ninja Gaiden games can sell 300k+ in their debut months on just 360 then Bayonetta could have.

I wrote it was one of the problems. NG2, has a male lead, a solid first game, better begining, which makes it much easier to sell 300k, bayonetta has none of the strengts NG2 had.(except a kick ass fighting engine)

Sadly the public doesn't care about reviews that much, and I'll bet that the word of mouth would have been better if the normal difficulty was easier, but still had all the other difficult ones intact.

It may not be the most important factor, but I still think normal should allways be playable for everyone, if a game should sell a lot of copies.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

Correction. Western males age 18 - 30 don't want uncomfortably pointed satire of blatant sexualization of female characters, when said female is a domimatrix who superficially embodies fan-service, but upon closer inspection holds said male personalities in mild contempt and cannot be fantasized about. Also, the character's personality is sly, intelligent, and confident, and more capable and imposing than any of the while males in the story. (The only truly imposing male is literally a black man from hell.)

Manboys are afraid of playing Bayonetta in front of other people because it highlights the absurdity of eastern and western videogame fetishisms quite on purpose.

The opening cut scene (and most of them) are probably some of the most genuinely hilarious shit that's been in a video game in years.

The problem here, is that guys are taking their videogames so seriously, that they really cannot take certain kinds of jokes and get red in the face.

The main thing to criticize in Bayonetta isn't the style or quality of its characters and cut scenes, but merely their length. It goes so far to play out its joke that the cinemas are a bit long in the tooth in many cases; a little overzealousness there.

But the horror directed at the from some folks, is a little like going to see The Grindhouse at a theater and being offended at the bad acting, dialog, and stereotypical exploitation characters.

I think it's ok to accept cheesy and self refenrential in movies and books, but game are interactive and gamers demand, need to be in control of the action rather than bea passive expectator. I think that's the problem most people have with games of this nature.

 

[avatar299]

Correction. Western males age 18 - 30 don't want uncomfortably pointed satire of blatant sexualization of female characters, when said female is a domimatrix who superficially embodies fan-service, but upon closer inspection holds said male personalities in mild contempt and cannot be fantasized about. Also, the character's personality is sly, intelligent, and confident, and more capable and imposing than any of the while males in the story. (The only truly imposing male is literally a black man from hell.)

Manboys are afraid of playing Bayonetta in front of other people because it highlights the absurdity of eastern and western videogame fetishisms quite on purpose.

The opening cut scene (and most of them) are probably some of the most genuinely hilarious shit that's been in a video game in years.

The problem here, is that guys are taking their videogames so seriously, that they really cannot take certain kinds of jokes and get red in the face.

The main thing to criticize in Bayonetta isn't the style or quality of its characters and cut scenes, but merely their length. It goes so far to play out its joke that the cinemas are a bit long in the tooth in many cases; a little overzealousness there.

But the horror directed at the from some folks, is a little like going to see The Grindhouse at a theater and being offended at the bad acting, dialog, and stereotypical exploitation characters.

If you honestly Bayonetta didnt sell becuase of that shit, then you are out of your mind. 99% of people have no idea that stuff happened in the game. Bayonetta didn't sell becuase of misogny or uncomfortable aesthectic.

Bayonetta disnt sell becuase no one asked for it. Beat em ups are just not that big anymore, and unless you are an established franchise like DMC or NG, most won't care.

 

[Fredescu]

I do find it interesting no one seems to want to give Nintendo credit, but are willing blame them for a decline.

I'm pretty sure all those press releases when Nintendo was breaking records were quite directly giving Nintendo credit. Now, it is absolutely true that their sales decline is responsible for the overall decline. Yes it looks like a decline because they shattered a bunch of records, but it is important to point out that they didn't sustain those record shattering numbers. Meanwhile the other systems remain there or thereabouts.

Bayonetta disnt sell becuase no one asked for it. Beat em ups are just not that big anymore, and unless you are an established franchise like DMC or NG, most won't care.

Are we still saying a game like Bayonetta selling 160k is a failure or low enough to say it "didn't sell"? Really? I'm fairly sure someone upthread pointed out it's about on par with a few of the DMC sequels (not 4).

 

[avatar299]

I'm pretty sure all those press releases when Nintendo was breaking records were quite directly giving Nintendo credit. Now, it is absolutely true that their sales decline is responsible for the overall decline. Yes it looks like a decline because they shattered a bunch of records, but it is important to point out that they didn't sustain those record shattering numbers. Meanwhile the other systems remain there or thereabouts.


Are we still saying a game like Bayonetta selling 160k is a failure or low enough to say it "didn't sell"? Really? I'm fairly sure someone upthread pointed out it's about on par with a few of the DMC sequels (not 4).

It's still doing poorly. Hitting your peak at the level other franchises are declining isn't something to find peace with.