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[Curufinwe]

Which one is the known brand?

Of course, DMC has much greater game recognition, but Sega didn't even get close to 50% as much sales despite a pretty heavy marketing effort.

 

[BishopLamont]

Mindblowing, thanks for posting.
Do we have any precedents of something similar happening to any other game/s in the last decade? I'd love to know.

NSMB/Mario Kart DS. They sell so consistently that any kind of of bump put them up YOM or YOY.

Of course, DMC has much greater game recognition, but Sega didn't even get close to 50% as much sales despite a pretty heavy marketing effort.

Sega is just bad at marketing, everything besides M&S doesn't sell that well, and guess why that game sells. Sega is just another case of late to the party, the genre kings are eating up the sales.

 

[Lonely1]

But didn't Bayonetta had a relative big advertismeent campaign?

 

[jcm]

He's not a stock analyst. He's a sector analyst.

That's a distinction without a difference.

Nintendo is not a growth stock and hasn't been one for years.

Well, it hasn't been growing, that's for sure. But if they aren't going to grow, then what exactly is the plan? The 5% dividend is only attractive if the stock is stable. Falling revenues and profits aren't going to give anyone stability.

 

[mhayze]

I was pretty far off on most of my numbers, using the 2008->9 (dec to jan) change as a guideline. I thought that some of the bigger games in jan would drive hw sales more than they turned out to.

 

[B-Rad Lascelle]

Sega is just bad at marketing, everything besides M&S doesn't sell that well, and guess why that game sells. Sega is just another case of late to the party, the genre kings are eating up the sales.

They're fundamentally incompetent but at least some titles ooze enough quality (like Valkyria Chronicles) that they'll find an audience in SPITE of "the Sega effect".

 

[Stumpokapow]

I still think it's fair to be disappointed when the closest game to it, DMC 4, did 528,700 in sales in its first month of release.

DMC3 did 250k in sales in its first month of release and is more comparable in terms o launch date within the console generation.

 

[Str0ngStyle]

I think it's more that America got sick and tired of anime being so hard to work with. It was slow to come over, much more expensive than american shows, and hard to find.

Basically, it was a huge hassle trying to watch anime. The industry has noone to blame but themselves.

I'm glad someone else said it

 

[justchris]

In this case, last year's sales of Nintendo consoles--and therefore likely the complementary software sales--were heavily padded by overflow from December, when they were supply-constrained. It's easy to look and see last December was low, January picked up the slack and was high, and cancel the emergency. Get some more data, normalize the sales and re-evaluate.

Ummm, but that is what he's doing. Did you read the entire article? The reason he used the verbiage he did is because he predicted a 9% industry decline, and it turned out there was a 13% industry decline, which is more than he expected based on the given factors (we can't be 100% certain of what factors he based this on unless he feels like telling us, but I'm pretty sure the exact things you described were probably in there since they are pretty fairly obvious). He took all these things into account, and made the estimation that this January would be 9% down from last January, and it turned out it was down 13%, which is almost half again as much as expected. That is a significant difference, and probably gives him pause as an investor.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

yeah but that wasnt the bet..

in the end of 2010 NSMBWii will still be at the Top 10 somewhere and will probably have sold more then MW2 on both systems.. but reggie and geoff said till end of january.. so geoff wins this one..

Yes, but did he say "US only sales" because, NSMB Wii outsold MW2 worldwide. The quote was so vague that fans on either side can twist it to mean whatever they want it to mean. For all we know, Reggie didn't say the 360, and Geoff just wanted to make the article more sensational.

 

[jabipun]

The over-saturation of Bayo ads on gaming sites caused me to sour towards the game. A first look at each game, darksiders looked more interesting from ads.

Hanging the hardcore crowd out to dry for dismal Bayo sales is the worst idea for an internet rage ever. The game wasn't the second coming.

Ehhhh...

Bayonetta is probably the purest representation of a 'hardcore' game in a long while.

Not to mention it's probably one of the best damn hardcore games to be released in even a "longer" while.

Darksiders charted because it's more marketable to the tweens. Blood and rage.

While Bayonetta, a game with gameplay action elements that will be copied by other action games for years and years to come, doesn't chart.

I do think the hardcore crowd dropped a ball on this one.

 

[JJConrad]

Ummm, but that is what he's doing. Did you read the entire article? The reason he used the verbiage he did is because he predicted a 9% industry decline, and it turned out there was a 13% industry decline, which is more than he expected based on the given factors (we can't be 100% certain of what factors he based this on unless he feels like telling us, but I'm pretty sure the exact things you described were probably in there since they are pretty fairly obvious). He took all these things into account, and made the estimation that this January would be 9% down from last January, and it turned out it was down 13%, which is almost half again as much as expected. That is a significant difference, and probably gives him pause as an investor.

Patcher has been predicting that the PS3 would become the market leader and Nintendo will release the WiiHD for years. When has being wrong ever caused this guy to "pause"?

Pachter is not an unbias analyst. He and the company he works for have invested interests in only portions of the industry. He's pushing a pretty clear agenda. For the same reason, industry analyst are hallow. This Y-O-Y comparison stuff means little, especially when they are not fully honest about the numbers. (Let me give two examples: First, in Pachter's Wii Third Party thread he gives Wii and DS totals and then compares that to PS3 and 360 percentages, never giving their totals {totals but the Wii and 360 almost even 46M/48M}. Another seen throughout industry analyst, 360 software in December 2009 was down from 2008, yet that was covered up by combining PS3 and 360 together as the "core" market.)

Comparing Jan 2010 to Jan 2008 paints a very different picture. Nintendo hardware units are up, industry software revenue is down only $17 million but on a weekly basis everything is doing considerably better. When you consider usual generational trends and naturally lowering prices, there really isn't much to pause about at this point.

Personally, I expect these y-o-y declines to settle down in March. Mainly due to NPD having changed their formula last year when these declines suddenly began. We'll be able to compare like numbers again.

 

[donny2112]

Yes, but did he say "US only sales" because, NSMB Wii outsold MW2 worldwide.

He said that NSMB Wii would outsell a single console version of MW2 by January's NPD (i.e. U.S.). Geoff butted in with "360?" in the middle of his statement and depending on the direction of the wind, Reggie's offhanded "yes" could be interpreted as an answer to his specific question or as a way to brush him off while continuing on with his sentence. Regardless, Geoff interrupted Reggie with the 360 part before Reggie continued on. Reggie didn't say "360."

It's quite possible that Reggie was in fact agreeing with the idea of NSMB Wii outselling 360 MW2 as 360 MW2 had a 30% larger opening than any other game in history. However due to Geoff's unprofessional journalism, there's ambiguity there. Geoff is trying to bring attention to himself by saying that it was a cut-and-dried NSMBWii to 360 MW2 comparison, but it's simply not that clear cut.

Mainly due to NPD having changed their formula last year when these declines suddenly began. We'll be able to compare like numbers again.

With GameStop's lost marketshare, I wonder if NPD will adjust their software again to compensate this year.

 

[jabipun]

nah....

the reason that bayonetta bombed so hard is because the demo probably turned off a large majority of normal western gamers.

i really wanted to like it but felt almost the same way I did when I lost interest in NG2 (and all other games of its ilk). Seriously - where is the fun?  Ive not played beyond the demo level, but reports of cheap enemies, trial/error gameplay and that tired old masochistic requirement = epic fail.

Seriously, the japanese devs need to realize that ppl play geames for ENJOYMENT these days....

Uhh, what the fuck (post #2).

I've spent a lot of time on the bayo official thread and I haven't read a post about cheap enemies. In fact, I've read the opposite. The enemies in Bayonetta are the best mix of "fun to kill" and "challenging" moreso than any other action game.

Next, Bayonetta on normal is not that hard. DMC1, DMC3, DMC3 SE, Ninja Gaiden 1, 2 - are all significantly harder than Bayo on normal. The only action game easier is god of war.

Bayo also offers level replays, support items, a generous checkpoint system etc.

I think the problem of why Bayo had a lower first month NPD result (espeiclaly compared to it's quality) - is indicative of what some of the posts in this thread are about.

People who've never played the game (or the final game) seemed to have these misconceptions about it. "It's seems like it's TOO HARD, OR to zany/whacky etc. etc."

Truth be told, Bayonetta from a gameplay perspective is very "western" - I simply allude to the generious save system/check point system, level replay etc.

Also, while the visuals and character are "out there" the actual gameplay is very much in line with the DMC, NG, God of War ilk.

Cept' Bayonetta does it about 2x's better than those games.

Ultimately. It's just a damn shame so many people missed out on the next step of action games.

 

[legend166]

There are plenty of Nintendo-wannabe bombs out there that you could've used as an example but Viva and Banjo are not one of them. Those were great games.

But both games bombed. Which was his entire point.

 

[Dan Yo]

But both games bombed. Which was his entire point.

His point seemed to be (at least to me) that they bombed because they were poorly designed or conceptually weak.

 

[Version 3.0]

Ummm, but that is what he's doing. Did you read the entire article? The reason he used the verbiage he did is because he predicted a 9% industry decline, and it turned out there was a 13% industry decline, which is more than he expected based on the given factors (we can't be 100% certain of what factors he based this on unless he feels like telling us, but I'm pretty sure the exact things you described were probably in there since they are pretty fairly obvious). He took all these things into account, and made the estimation that this January would be 9% down from last January, and it turned out it was down 13%, which is almost half again as much as expected. That is a significant difference, and probably gives him pause as an investor.

You're going to have to point me to the article you're reading, because the one linked (this one in this post) says nothing at all like what you're describing.

But unless his description of Nintendo's (very high) hardware sales as "outrageously low" was a mis-quote, his perception is distorted at best. Not to mention the Wii's decline of "77% percent" (sic) is completely wrong and has two percents on it. The 17% decline he lists for the DS is right. By the same measure, the Wii is down 31%, not 77%. I would've thought basic math is also a requirement for his job (and the editor as well).

 

[Future]

But didn't Bayonetta had a relative big advertismeent campaign?

Marketing wont help a niche game like this. A game purely for the hardcore. Dante (DMC) in comparison has a little more cool factor that will help keep it off the ground, along with the fact it's a sequel to a known franchise

Plus, even for the hardcore...this game has very crazy design. Very Japanese, and you gotta be into that sorta thing. Hardcore gamers I know wouldnt even give it a chance

 

[Slavik81]

His point seemed to be (at least to me) that they bombed because they were poorly designed or conceptually weak.

I didn't get that. Banjo was just the wrong game. They built up quite a bit of hype for Banjo 3, then pulled the rug out from under it by revealing it was not the game fans were looking forward to.

He seems to imply that Viva Pinata was too complicated for its audience, but I disagree. A lot of gamers underestimate children. I would suspect that the problem is more to do with the game's concept. Raising pinatas in a garden's not quite the exciting adventure that Pokemon was. The fact that the show didn't catch on didn't help either (and that certainly can't be blamed on the complexity of the game).

 

[Canova]

Uhh, what the fuck (post #2).

I've spent a lot of time on the bayo official thread and I haven't read a post about cheap enemies. In fact, I've read the opposite. The enemies in Bayonetta are the best mix of "fun to kill" and "challenging" moreso than any other action game.

Next, Bayonetta on normal is not that hard. DMC1, DMC3, DMC3 SE, Ninja Gaiden 1, 2 - are all significantly harder than Bayo on normal. The only action game easier is god of war.

Bayo also offers level replays, support items, a generous checkpoint system etc.

I think the problem of why Bayo had a lower first month NPD result (espeiclaly compared to it's quality) - is indicative of what some of the posts in this thread are about.

People who've never played the game (or the final game) seemed to have these misconceptions about it. "It's seems like it's TOO HARD, OR to zany/whacky etc. etc."

Truth be told, Bayonetta from a gameplay perspective is very "western" - I simply allude to the generious save system/check point system, level replay etc.

Also, while the visuals and character are "out there" the actual gameplay is very much in line with the DMC, NG, God of War ilk.

Cept' Bayonetta does it about 2x's better than those games.

Ultimately. It's just a damn shame so many people missed out on the next step of action games.

nope.

I'm glad the sale number speaks for itself. Bayonetta is not what we want for the future of action games.

EDIT:

What we want is
1. The true successor of NGB. NG2 is pretty close, had Tecmo not rush the game, it would've been close to perfect
2. The true successor of DMC1

 

[ShinobiFist]

Which one is the known brand?

Darksiders is a new I.P. as well and had less marketing than Bayonetta and it still outsold it. Thank god Bayonetta bombed. Here's a thought SEGA, market games people give a fuck about(VF)

 

[Vilix]

nope.

I'm glad the sale number speaks for itself. Bayonetta is not what we want for the future of action games.

EDIT:

What we want is
1. The true successor of NGB. NG2 is pretty close, had Tecmo not rush the game, it would've been close to perfect
2. The true successor of DMC1

I can't stand people of utter ignorance. Especially when they try to speak for me.

 

[Gravijah]

I love the circle jerking over Bayonetta

"This game was made for us, the hardcore"

"It didn't sell because it's too hardcore for the mainstream"

 

[Shin Johnpv]

What we want is
1. The true successor of NGB. NG2 is pretty close, had Tecmo not rush the game, it would've been close to perfect

Speak for yourself not "we". I hate the NG series, cheapness to the point of stupid frustration, not worth my fucking time. Bayonetta is much much much more enjoyable IMHO.

 

[jvm]

Another seen throughout industry analyst, 360 software in December 2009 was down from 2008, yet that was covered up by combining PS3 and 360 together as the "core" market.)

I don't understand this statement. According to what I've seen, (Xbox 360 + PS3 SW $ in Dec 2009) < (Xbox 360 + PS3 SW $ in Dec 2008) because the Xbox 360 SW $ dropped a lot and PS3 SW $ went up modestly. Maybe I've got bad figures or I have your point somehow wrong? Do you really mean that the Xbox 360 SW $ drop was ameliorated -- but not covered up entirely -- by combining with the PS3 SW $?

 

[Curufinwe]

DMC3 did 250k in sales in its first month of release and is more comparable in terms o launch date within the console generation.

There are millions more 360s and PS3s in American homes now than there were when DMC 4 came out on the same platforms Bayonetta was released on. Therefore, the fact that Bayonetta only sold 30% as well is a disappointment.

 

[Stumpokapow]

There are millions more 360s and PS3s in American homes now than there were when DMC 4 came out on the same platforms Bayonetta was released on. Therefore, the fact that Bayonetta only sold 30% as well is a disappointment.

it doesn't work that way.

there were millions more ps2s when gt4 came out than when gt3 came out, but it sold fewer copies.

a direct comparison between dmc4 and bayonetta has some merit (platform, genre). a direct comparison between dmc3 and bayonetta has different merits (first month sales, launch period). of course, in regards to established pedigree, you'd have to compare to dmc1 which is impossible, and in regards to launch month and publisher there's no valid comparison.

Darksiders is a new I.P. as well and had less marketing than Bayonetta and it still outsold it. Thank god Bayonetta bombed. Here's a thought SEGA, market games people give a fuck about(VF)

bayonetta month one ps3+360 is very close to having vf5 lifetime ps3+360. people don't care about virtua fighter.

 

[Curufinwe]

DMC 4 launched in February, which is very comparable to Bayonetta's launch month of January.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

It seems we have the same talk every time a Clover/Platinum game comes out.

Well, except for Mad World, cuz that one was just poop.

 

[dolemite]

DMC 4 launched in February, which is very comparable to Bayonetta's launch month of January.

Except that it didn't have a direct competitor like Darksiders.

 

[J-Rzez]

Disappointing for people, MAG will be a slow burn. It's the measuring stick for online shooters this gen, and people are taking notice and picking it up.

 

[Y2Kev]

I think, given Sega's advertising budget, Bayonetta's sales might be a little underwhelming, but I think they are pretty good when you look at the overall picture. It didn't do that much worse than DMC3, which--here I agree with stump--I deem to be the most appropriate comparison. It's certainly not a huge bomb, and it's probably one of Sega's best performing new franchises since Yakuza's Japanese performance in 2005.

I can think of Mario and Sonic being a better seller and maybe not much else...Love and Berry in Japan?

 

[Ashes]

I think Bayonnetta needs a grass roots campaign. GAF get to it....

 

[ThatObviousUser]

I think Bayonnetta needs a grass roots campaign. GAF get to it....

Because that worked so well for Zack & Wiki and Okami Wii... hell any of Platinum/Clover's games really.

 

[Lonely1]

Except that it didn't have a direct competitor like Darksiders.

Which is very important for the vialibility of future titles like Bayoneta , and won't go away. Bayonetta is out, none is going to take it away. What about Bayonetta 2? Imo, this is the most important aspect of sales threads.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

I for one am shocked Bayonetta did as well as it did over here.

Disappointing for people, MAG will be a slow burn. It's the measuring stick for online shooters this gen, and people are taking notice and picking it up.

You and this "notice" stuff.

 

[SlipperySlope]

How did Silent Hill do so far?

 

[fernoca]

What I still don't get is that people still talk about "dissapointing"..or "bomba"..regarding the sales of Bayonetta, when the company that published the game, was quite happy reporting sales/shipping/whatever 1.1 million copies as of a few weeks ago.

Yeah, maybe is not what YOU expected..and maybe YOU are dissapointed with the sales, but the ones that actually were behind the game seem more than satisfied at the moment.

Unless I'm missing something, if so can anyone point me to the statement of Sega talking about Bayonetta bombing and dissapointing at retail? Does anyone have a quote of Kamiya dissapointed at it too?

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Kamiya is sitting here right next to me and let me tell you, he is fucking inconsolable. We can't even finish playing this game of TMNT: Manhattan Project.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Kamiya is sitting here right next to me and let me tell you, he is fucking inconsolable. We can't even finish playing this game of TMNT: Manhattan Project.

Wow, he must be sad.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

Kamiya is sitting here right next to me and let me tell you, he is fucking inconsolable. We can't even finish playing this game of TMNT: Manhattan Project.

Segata Sanshiro
You can't tentacle rape
the tentacle willing
(Today, 01:39 AM)
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[Thunder Monkey]

Segata Sanshiro
You can't tentacle rape
the tentacle willing
(Today, 01:39 AM)
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That doesn't even make sense.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Wow, he must be sad.

It started when I wouldn't let him pick Donatello, but this whole Bayonetta bombing thing really made things get out of hand.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

That doesn't even make sense.

Thunder Monkey
FIGS IN MY RECTUM
(Today, 01:45 AM)
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[Dalthien]

How did Silent Hill do so far?

Let's just say that the PS2 and PSP debuts were MUCH smaller than the Wii debut.

Yeah, maybe is not what YOU expected..and maybe YOU are dissapointed with the sales, but the ones that actually were behind the game seem more than satisfied at the moment.

I would be cautious about putting too much stock into an early statement by the company. It is entirely possible that Sega is very happy with the 1.1 million shipment figure - end of story.

But it is also possible that they were happy because that was the initial shipment, and they were hoping that the game would be able to build on that initial shipment in order to get to 1.5 million or some other such number. So they may have looked at it as a nice first shipment, but not necessarily a nice final total. There's no way to know at this point. It seems as though the game did receive a fairly hefty marketing budget.

But based on the shipment figure, the game was on sale pretty much the whole month, and at the end of January, there was likely still nearly half a million units sitting in the retail channel.

 

[ZealousD]

That doesn't even make sense.

That's a strange sentence coming from you, Thunder Monkey.

 

[SuperBonk]

What I still don't get is that people still talk about "dissapointing"..or "bomba"..regarding the sales of Bayonetta, when the company that published the game, was quite happy reporting sales/shipping/whatever 1.1 million copies as of a few weeks ago.

Yeah, maybe is not what YOU expected..and maybe YOU are dissapointed with the sales, but the ones that actually were behind the game seem more than satisfied at the moment.

Unless I'm missing something, if so can anyone point me to the statement of Sega talking about Bayonetta bombing and dissapointing at retail? Does anyone have a quote of Kamiya dissapointed at it too?

There's a lot of cognitive dissonance in these threads, mainly because of the ambiguous nature of the success of Wii's 3rd party software sales. The exact argument you are making for Bayonetta has been made for several Wii 3rd party games several times and a consensus has yet to form.

Normally I would say we (as outsiders to the industry) can neither interpret sales nor publisher PR and should just wait and see the actual decisions made by publishers to see what were and weren't successes. But with many publishers reporting declining revenue, several being in debt, and some even on the verge of bankruptcy, it becomes hard to even take their decisions at face value.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

That's a strange sentence coming from you, Thunder Monkey.

ZealousD
FIGS IN MY tentacle rape Member
(Today, 12:50 AM)
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[Saint Gregory]

2. The true successor of DMC1

Um, you've already been well reprimanded by others but based on what I've played so far Bayonetta is as close to a true DMC1 successor as you're likely to get. That's IMO of course but considering the direction DMC has taken without Kamiya at the helm it's a pretty safe bet.

 

[J-Rzez]

You and this "notice" stuff.

It seems like there's a new Gaffer or friend of a gaffer wanting invites since they just got it nearly every day. That's not including other word of mouth exposures.