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[Karma Kramer]

So paying taxes exempt you from a crime? Did the NYPD force the protestors onto the bridge like cattle, or did they jut march there like they own the city. Something tells me the latter.

Something tells you, yet you really have no clue what happened. Nor do I... All I can say is that a more practical way of handling the situation would have been to not blockade the protestors on the bridge and spending 2 hours arresting innocent people. Taxes don't exempt you from a crime, but I think given the chaotic nature and circumstance of large protests it is wrong to jail individuals when they show no aggression towards others or property. The police were marching ahead of the protestors... should they not also therefore be included in the protest?

 

[remnant]

Seriously man... so because the military explicitly states they have a research budget it is then fair to lose money there? When I look at other developed nations and see them investing in new forms of energy and transportation and then I look at our military budget, I want to cry

I didn't say I liked the military budget. I said the military has a research budget where money is expected to be lost. Losing money there isn't that much of a story. Case in point the military lost a shit ton of money before they pulled off GPS. Why didn't you link that?

Most countries on that list depend on America's research into military weaponry and the like. if those countries funded it themselves, that chart would be a lot more colorful.

Either way this has nothing to do with the DoE poor loan programs and the amount of money that has been lost doing corporate welfare of the like.

 

[Karma Kramer]

I didn't say I liked the military budget. I said the military has a research budget where money is expected to be lost. Losing money there isn't that much of a story. Case in point the military lost a shit ton of money before they pulled off GPS. Why didn't you link that?

Most countries on that list depend on America's research into military weaponry and the like. if those countries funded it themselves, that chart would be a lot more colorful.

Either way this has nothing to do with the DoE poor loan programs and the amount of money that has been lost doing corporate welfare of the like.

All I am saying is, I don't mind losing money on research, but I would rather our money be lost researching more important things, then new ways to kill people.

 

[remnant]

All I am saying is, I don't mind losing money on research, but I would rather our money be lost researching more important things, then new ways to kill people.

Arpanet was funded by the military as part of their large research budget. Many of the jets and planes we fly today are based off military jets and planes and rockets. Just saying.


Most corporate welfare comes in the form of "research" or "development" It is rare, truly rare that the government has a great idea and invests in it, from the bottom to the top.

Also remember this conversation exists because of solyndra, a company that had already created their new product, and wanted to solely increase manufacturing, not research.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Arpanet was funded by the military as part of their large research budget. Many of the jets and planes we fly today are based off military jets and planes and rockets. Just saying.


Most corporate welfare comes in the form of "research" or "development" It is rare, truly rare that the government has a great idea and invests in it, from the bottom to the top.

Also remember this conversation exists because of solyndra, a company that had already created their new product, and wanted to solely increase manufacturing, not research.

Fair enough, however trillions have been spent on wars the past decade and I see little justification for spending that amount of money. So my point before was speaking generally about military spending.

Manufacturing more solar energy or wind will only help diminish the need for oil/coal etc... I don't understand why that would be considered as wasteful or more wasteful....

 

[remnant]

Manufacturing more solar energy or wind will only help diminish the need for oil/coal etc... I don't understand why that would be considered as wasteful or more wasteful....

It's wasteful because their was no reason to do it. Solyndra made a product they believed could corner the solar market by being noticeably cheaper than normal solar panels. They guessed wrong and lost a lot of money. This loan, if it worked perfectly would have done nothing but give Solyndra a slight niche in the solar market, because eventually the price of solar panel material was going to come down. It would have never made us a leader in solar panel manufacturing or research.

 

[Karma Kramer]

It's wasteful because their was no reason to do it. Solyndra made a product they believed could corner the solar market by being noticeably cheaper than normal solar panels. They guessed wrong and lost a lot of money. This loan, if it worked perfectly would have done nothing but give Solyndra a slight niche in the solar market, because eventually the price of solar panel material was going to come down. It would have never made us a leader in solar panel manufacturing or research.

I agree with your assessment and I will give you the point here. But again generally, more solar panels being used = less dependence on oil/coal which is beneficial.

 

[Mgoblue201]

It's wasteful because their was no reason to do it. Solyndra made a product they believed could corner the solar market by being noticeably cheaper than normal solar panels. They guessed wrong and lost a lot of money. This loan, if it worked perfectly would have done nothing but give Solyndra a slight niche in the solar market, because eventually the price of solar panel material was going to come down. It would have never made us a leader in solar panel manufacturing or research.

I am open to the argument that this particular company was not worth investing in (and it did indeed appear to be a mistake), but it is more dubious to argue that the government should not spend money on energy technology at all. The energy sector is notorious for under-investing in new technology, which seriously impedes progress, so if anything there is a greater need for it than other types of spending. Throughout America's history the government has had to invest in just about every new kind of energy technology - usually with good results. Some failures are to be expected. Keep in mind that Solyndra is just one bad loan in a much, much larger pool of energy investment that has so far worked well.

 

[fortified_concept]

I didn't say I liked the military budget. I said the military has a research budget where money is expected to be lost. Losing money there isn't that much of a story. Case in point the military lost a shit ton of money before they pulled off GPS. Why didn't you link that?

Most countries on that list depend on America's research into military weaponry and the like. if those countries funded it themselves, that chart would be a lot more colorful.

Either way this has nothing to do with the DoE poor loan programs and the amount of money that has been lost doing corporate welfare of the like.

Could you please stop with the false equivalencies? All research isn't the same, research on weapons isn't the same as scientific research for the betterment of humanity, I actually find the implication quite offensive. And just because from the trillions wasted on making more effective killing machines a few projects happened to be used for a good cause it doesn't mean trillions weren't wasted.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Could you please stop with the false equivalencies? All research isn't the same, research on weapons isn't the same as scientific research for the betterment of humanity, I actually find the implication quite offensive. And just because from the trillions wasted on making more effective killing machines a few projects happened to be used for a good cause it doesn't mean trillions weren't wasted.

Thank you for wrapping up exactly what I was trying to get at. Sometimes I get trapped arguing semantics when it is really a distraction from the underlying point. Scientific research that benefits our health and planet should be a common goal amongst all humans. Regardless of this one failure, it shouldn't deter our government from that goal.

 

[alejob]

I agree with some of their points. But with lots of them it sounds like they want their cake and at it too.

The US can't be the police of the world, cut the military budget, we can't afford it.

 

[Keru_Shiri]

Pardon my ignorance, but were the claims that protestors corralled onto the bridge, then arrested, ever substantiated? Or is this something we can ever know for certain?

Regardless, I find myself growing increasingly supportive of this movement. It seems to finally gained the weight and momentum needed to become something legitimate. I'll have to see if there is anything going on in my area.

 

[ezrarh]

I initially thought this wasn't going to last but I hope it gets bigger and more widespread.

 

[magicstop]

I think it's worth mentioning that the publicized list was not a list of goals. If you take a moment to read it, you see it is a list of grievances and observations, plus it is a declaration of their occupation. A list of goals/demands should be forthcoming soon, and I hope it's a fairly concise document.
Two Occupy movements happening in my area today (both are planning meetings) that I will be attending. I'm excited.

Pardon my ignorance, but were the claims that protestors corralled onto the bridge, then arrested, ever substantiated? Or is this something we can ever know for certain?

I'm not sure that it will ever been completely clear, especially as the protesters will be prone to take one stance, and the police and mainstream media will certainly take another. In general, weight will be given to the MSM (warranted or not), and that will set the history.
From what I've been about to read, the protest traffic was directed toward the bridge, and the police opened up the foot traffic lanes for the protesters. Protesters began to use the vehicular traffic lanes, and the police did not attempt to stop them or prevent them from doing so. The # of protesters in the traffic area swelled, slowing/stopping traffic, and then the police shut off either end of the bridge and began their arrests.
This is somewhere in between the stories, and I suspect is closest to the truth, but we may never know.

 

[Ripclawe]

But arresting someone for "blocking traffic" or "disrupting business" is the same thing as making protests illegal.

How do you propose 10,000 people march without "disrupting traffic"?

They have walkways/sidewalks, if they move onto roads they are disrupting traffic and other people who have a purpose in life other than protesting evil bankers or whatever else they are whining about today

rights of a citizen to receive adequate health care, education and employment,

You have a right to a chance for health care, education and employment, you sure as hell don't have a right to get health care, "free" college education and employment.

Basically you are demanding taxpayers fund everything in life to your needs because you feel you have a right to it.

I support changes to wall street, but this mess is nothing more than the same groups of lazy middle/upper class young people who think the government should hand them over everything on a platter for "free"

 

[Karma Kramer]

They have walkways/sidewalks, if they move onto roads they are disrupting traffic and other people who have a purpose in life other than protesting evil bankers or whatever else they are whining about today

Wow, what a shrewd generalization. People who are against the corruption that has caused economic hardship don't have any other purpose in life?

 

[magicstop]

I recommend everyone so "condescending, dismissive and scornful" in this thread to read this insightful article.

Great link! Thanks for the read. It's got a lot of valid and interesting points.
Just a quick example, and rather than anyone arguing against this quote specifically, instead just go read the whole article:

But much of this progressive criticism consists of relatively (ostensibly) well-intentioned tactical and organizational critiques of the protests: there wasn’t a clear unified message; it lacked a coherent media strategy; the neo-hippie participants were too off-putting to Middle America; the resulting police brutality overwhelmed the message, etc. etc. That’s the high-minded form which most progressive scorn for the protests took: it’s just not professionally organized or effective.

Some of these critiques are ludicrous. Does anyone really not know what the basic message is of this protest: that Wall Street is oozing corruption and criminality and its unrestrained political power — in the form of crony capitalism and ownership of political institutions — is destroying financial security for everyone else? Beyond that, criticizing protesters for the prominence of police brutality stories is pure victim-blaming (and, independently, having police brutality highlighted is its own benefit).

Most importantly, very few protest movements enjoy perfect clarity about tactics or command widespread support when they begin; they’re designed to spark conversation, raise awareness, attract others to the cause, and build those structural planks as they grow and develop. Dismissing these incipient protests because they lack fully developed, sophisticated professionalization is akin to pronouncing a three-year-old child worthless because he can’t read Schopenhauer: those who are actually interested in helping it develop will work toward improving those deficiencies, not harp on them in order to belittle its worth.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

So how's this thread going?

 

[Karma Kramer]

You have a right to a chance for health care, education and employment, you sure as hell don't have a right to get health care, "free" college education and employment.

Basically you are demanding taxpayers fund everything in life to your needs because you feel you have a right to it.

I support changes to wall street, but this mess is nothing more than the same groups of lazy middle/upper class young people who think the government should hand them over everything on a platter for "free"

Did you not see the article that describes the current mess younger generations are in trying to afford education and healthcare... let alone finding a job. Its at 55% unemployment for 16-29 year olds (I believe, feel free to correct me on those numbers). And you call these young people middle/upper class... how exactly can you be middle/upper class and not have a job. Unless you are generalizing that all the protestors have fairly wealthy parents. And even if this were true, whats wrong with people standing up for injustices even if they don't directly affect them?

 

[Karma Kramer]

So how's this thread going?

http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution

Check out the stream, maybe I'm imagining things but it seems to be gaining momentum.

 

[TheSeks]

So the Marine that posted on Reddit about going down there got a huge group of Marines beyond his (IIRC) 4-9 friends that knew they may get in trouble but went anyway?

Awesome.

 

[dave is ok]

Their first "official" release is embarassingly bad. They need a spokesperson, and need to stop listing demands democratically -what the fuck does torture and WMDs have to do with Wall St.? And the "They" thing sounds like a fifth grader wrote it on 4chan.

 

[magicstop]

Updated the OP with a large list of who is involved with the movement, as well as other tidbits. In the process of hot-linking the list, and cleaning up the post in general.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

Exactly... very odd times to see "liberal" gaf against these peaceful protests.

Liberal GAF wants this to fail more than anybody else does.

http://blogs.reuters.com/muniland/2011/09/23/solyndras-funny-money-flow/

Solyndra is the bankrupt solar company that received the first Department of Energy loan under the 2009 American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. It also is notorious in that its largest financial backer, George Kaiser, was a substantial supporter of President Barack Obama in 2008 and regularly visited the White House following the election.


Huh.

What does this have to do with anything?

That's true but I think you'd find a very healthy number of Republicans raging at the bailouts, the lack of any criminal charges being handed out from financial malfeasance.

There is a difference between support of free enterprise and total usurpation of government by the banks and Wall Street.

We may not all join hands and create a utopia, but we can at least work together to make sure the taxpayer isn't the one paying for it when the big boys fuck up their risk assessment algorithms.

I agree. I'm sure that there are some of the supporters are a bit uncomfortable seeing Ron Paul fans out there. But in reality we need as many supporters for this as we can get.

It turns out that they are having "Occupy Wisconsin" coming up in 2 weeks or so. I'm not THAT far from Milwaukee. I may go.

Both parties are bought and paid for. There aren't many options other than insurrection at this point. That is if you want REAL change.

Again, history has shown that you can get real change with peaceful protests.

Serious question -- does anybody think that enacting actual change will require bloodshed/violence, as seen elsewhere -- or can it still be done through a thoroughly corrupted political and economic system?

Its not like it hasn't been done peacefully before under far worse conditions.

 

[cooljeanius]

Updated the OP with a large list of who is involved with the movement, as well as other tidbits. In the process of hot-linking the list, and cleaning up the post in general.

PM'd.

 

[El Sloth]

Not necessarily. If they want as broad support as possible they need to focus their goals and distill the message down. This needs to be less "us vs. the man/corporation" boogeyman and more of a populist airing of grievances. Things like making Wall St. accountable for their financial crimes, increasing the tax burden on millionaires, reducing the influence of money in government, etc. are goals that are more easily embraced by a wide swath of the public than the angsty and vague claims they made in their original manifesto.

I need to find some contact info.

I agree, but you don't think that it's better than having no goals at all?

 

[travisbickle]

They have walkways/sidewalks, if they move onto roads they are disrupting traffic and other people who have a purpose in life other than protesting evil bankers or whatever else they are whining about today

There maybe drivers within the traffic whose purpose in life is to uphold other people's liberties, and they would be very happy to wait in a queue whilst others protested.

 

[ameratsu]

I recommend everyone so "condescending, dismissive and scornful" in this thread to read this insightful article.

This is a good read. Worth reading if you haven't already.

 

[SolKane]

You have a right to a chance for health care, education and employment, you sure as hell don't have a right to get health care, "free" college education and employment.

Basically you are demanding taxpayers fund everything in life to your needs because you feel you have a right to it.

I support changes to wall street, but this mess is nothing more than the same groups of lazy middle/upper class young people who think the government should hand them over everything on a platter for "free"

We can have an honest discussion about what the rights of citizens in 21st century should be (which I doubt you are really interested in), but to call the protesters lazy is ludicrous. The lazy people are the ones sitting on the sidelines and griping about all the problems in the country.

 

[SolKane]

Liberal GAF wants this to fail more than anybody else does.

What makes you say this? I think there's been a lot of support for these protests besides a few rather transparent detractors.

 

[DEO3]

The initial article confirms protesters were led onto the bridge by the police, twenty minutes later the article is 'updated' by Al Baker.

Who is this Al Baker?

Al Baker, police bureau chief for The New York Times — and the son of a police lieutenant — brings you inside the nation’s largest police force every Thursday. Mr. Baker can be reached at [email protected]. - source

oh okay then

 

[Karma Kramer]

To me its obvious the cops trapped the protestors on the bridge. Why would they shut down the bridge to arrest 700 people for 2 hours when the more practical approach would be to let them exit the bridge to allow flow of traffic again

Something also to note: NYPD received a $4.6 million donation from JP Morgan Chase

 

[theinfinityissue]

i would totally go to this but my only che guevara tee is DIRTY b/c my mom didn't clean XD and i would just diieeeeee if someone posted a pic of me wearing dirty clothes on reddit XD

tomorrow tho i am going to go occupy the post office to protest american naval bases in rwanda! UNEXECUTE TROY DAVIS!!!!!

 

[Bloodbeard]

I just heard on the live stream that uniformed military personel have in fact arrived at Liberty Park to support the protestors.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Again, this video seems to show the protestors only moving on the walkway, then the police starting a new path on the main road. Why the protestors followed them I don't really know, perhaps they felt it was getting too congested on the walkway and the police were giving the 'ok" to move across the bridge that way as well. I'm unclear as to why they were using the bridge at all though. So its hard to be conclusive here. Why the cops didn't create a barricade between the mass of protestors and the road... why they started to march up the street... it seems illogical.

 

[milkyjay20]

i would totally go to this but my only che guevara tee is DIRTY b/c my mom didn't clean XD and i would just diieeeeee if someone posted a pic of me wearing dirty clothes on reddit XD

tomorrow tho i am going to go occupy the post office to protest american naval bases in rwanda! UNEXECUTE TROY DAVIS!!!!!

that sounds like a pretty good day. me, i'm gonna watch tv and scream at the republican debate. they're all crazy, but that just means that obama has a better chance, and i'm gonna vote the shit outta obama cuz i'm totally a part of the political process

 

[magicstop]

I just heard on the live stream that uniformed military personel have in fact arrived at Liberty Park to support the protestors.

I believe the LiveStream that I saw (that was actually live at the time, not a replay) last night indicated that around 15 marines were present for Occupy Wall St. Not sure if you are seeing something different. Which LiveStream are you on for that? Global Revolution is where I saw it.

Top of the Page EDIT (50 pp for life, baby): Don't forget to keep checking the OP, as I'm trying to update it pretty frequently with new information and with new sections.

 

[Bloodbeard]

Yup, watching Global Revolution (which is live at the time of this posting).


EDIT: They tried to show the marines but their livefeed is not mobile.

 

[[Nintex]]

Yup, watching Global Revolution (which is live at the time of this posting).

Me too and she's going up to the marines now or at least is trying to.

 

[elrechazado]

Why are supporters of these protests so keyed up about the fact that a few people in military uniform may appear at the protests? What is the significance of this?

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

i would totally go to this but my only che guevara tee is DIRTY b/c my mom didn't clean XD and i would just diieeeeee if someone posted a pic of me wearing dirty clothes on reddit XD

tomorrow tho i am going to go occupy the post office to protest american naval bases in rwanda! UNEXECUTE TROY DAVIS!!!!!

you are a jackass

in fact i fucking hate all of you pseudo intellectual losers, you fucks would never do something half as brave as simply just protesting. you'd rather make oh so educated proximations as to what these kids are priveleged idiots when half of them are probably in the same fucking boat as most of american youth which is ANYTHING but fucking entitled fucks but a hard working, fucked over lost generation who don't want to take this shit anymore

 

[[Nintex]]

Why are supporters of these protests so keyed up about the fact that a few people in military uniform may appear at the protests? What is the significance of this?

Because a week ago this movement was described as being 1 or 2 bored hippies on the sidewalk being made fun of by the media.

They had like 20 protestors tops and today 700 were arrested.

 

[elrechazado]

Because a week ago this movement was described as being 1 or 2 bored hippies on the sidewalk being made fun of by the media.

And how do a small group of sympathetic former military members change any of that in any way?

 

[Karma Kramer]

you are a jackass

in fact i fucking hate all of you pseudo intellectual losers, you fucks would never do something half as brave as simply just protesting. you'd rather make oh so educated proximations as to what these kids are priveleged idiots when half of them are probably in the same fucking boat as most of american youth which is ANYTHING but fucking entitled fucks but a hard working, fucked over lost generation who don't want to take this shit anymore

amen, easy to be a jerk behind a computer screen.

 

[Measley]

Why are supporters of these protests so keyed up about the fact that a few people in military uniform may appear at the protests? What is the significance of this?

Military veterans participating gives this protest a LOT more weight. Its no longer a bunch of hippies, its now people who put their lives on the line and have come back home to nothing.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

amen, easy to be a jerk behind a computer screen.

it's the epitome of false consciousness, really. it's sad

 

[elrechazado]

Military veterans participating gives this protest a LOT more weight.

I asked why, not what. What does the military have to do with the "theme" (if there even is one) to these protests?

This latching onto a half dozen former marines is as pathetic as "look, we have a black guy at this tea party rally". It's a half assed attempt to derive legitimacy through symbolism with no real meaning, by attempting to coopt a symbol of the "opposite". Kind of sad that even those who are excited about it have no idea what it means.

it's the epitome of false consciousness, really. it's sad

It's funny though, if you're not a humorless douche who flips the hell out over a harmless joke.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

Military veterans participating gives this protest a LOT more weight. Its no longer a bunch of hippies, its now people who put their lives on the line and have come back home to nothing.

dude i am 100% against foreign wars, but i tell you what's sicker than invading a country and absolutely devestating their infrastructure, population and will is to leave your veterans who did your dirty deeds in the dust without healthcare and without respect

it's so fucking disgusting man it just makes my fist clench, haha, real talk

 

[Keru_Shiri]

And how do a small group of sympathetic former military members change any of that in any way?

Not just a few posts before yours, a gaffer was cracking wise about Che t-shirts, Reddit, and protesting the Post Office. Former Marines joining the cause helps dispel the depressingly prevalent notion that the only people involved in this are hippies and college freshmen.

It's funny though, if you're not a humorless douche who flips the hell out over a harmless joke.

It be a lot funnier if the joke wasn't made a dozen times before.

 

[magicstop]

At this point, I would encourage you guys to avoid feeding the trolls or even acknowledging them. I would also avoid any rigorous exchange or argument that focuses on small and inconsequential details, as it simply detracts from the overall focus and dynamic of the thread. I certainly don't want to see a repeat of the last Occupy thread. Let the haters hate, and keep moving.