• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

PoliGAF 2012 Community Thread |OT2| This thread title is now under military control

Status
Not open for further replies.
Martinez speech was really good.

Paul Ryan's speech was not quite as good. (we all got a boner at the "central planner" line right?)

Condoleeza Rice is frightening.

Any women who brings up carrying a .357 magnum in her speech gets my vote. Hell I'll commit voter fraud to vote for her! Plus she also is an example of someone who worked hard as hell to get where they did.

Big difference, that was a midterm. Presidential Elections are completely different with more voters and different demographics

That's the point it could pay off in 2014 and they may feel it's the best approach now.
 

Kosmo

Banned
Now, I think the Democrats would benefit hugely from reaching back to their labor ties and creating some sort of working-class caucus, but they're hampered in this by the fact that Congresspeople are no longer working-class. But that's where I'd start addressing this issue -- because labor is certainly a special interest that belongs in the big tent. Joe Biden might be the best person to do this, in many ways.

There is already a Labor and Working Families Caucus

http://lindasanchez.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=472&Itemid=53
 
This would probably be an easy 5 page thread in the OT, but I don't feel like it.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2123309,00.html

A Democrat party that doesn't constantly play the race card every time it has some adversity? Why .. wouldn't that be something?
I think the problem is more in the eye of that writer if they think the only thing the Democrats offer is equal rights and racial integration.

I'm not a woman, a gay, a black, a latino, or any other racial/ethic minority. I find myself never able to align with the GOP because are science-deniers and theocratic.


I do agree that there is a limited return on Democratic focus on equal rights and racial integration . . . as the get things done and make progress, the issue goes away. They actually get things done. The GOP has a better thing with abortion and conservative culture war issues in a way because they never actually accomplish much . . . it is a perpetual carrot dangling on a stick in front of the horse that they can never reach. Vote for us, we'll ban abortion! . . . its been 40 years now and they've accomplished little but some annoying regulations. In the meantime, we've invented abortion-pills and morning-after pills. Meanwhile, gays are allowed in the military now and support for gay marriage is around 50/50.
 

Kosmo

Banned
I think the problem is more in the eye of that writer if they think the only thing the Democrats offer is equal rights and racial integration.

George Will nailed it this morning:

Before Franklin Roosevelt, “liberal” described policies emphasizing liberty and individual rights. He, however, pioneered the politics of collective rights — of group entitlements. And his liberalism systematically developed policies not just to buy the allegiance of existing groups but to create groups that henceforth would be dependent on government.

Under FDR, liberalism became the politics of creating an electoral majority from a mosaic of client groups. Labor unions got special legal standing, farmers got crop supports, business people got tariff protection and other subsidies, the elderly got pensions, and so on and on.

Government no longer existed to protect natural rights but to confer special rights on favored cohorts. As Irving Kristol said, the New Deal preached not equal rights for all but equal privileges for all — for all, that is, who banded together to become wards of the government.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
In a lot of ways (politically being one), FDR's hand was forced into doing what he did. If you look at the amount of leftist splinter groups pre-FDR versus post-FDR it's pretty staggering. He essentially was able to coalesce all these groups under one banner in a short amount of time. Which helped foster in a 40+ year rule of the House/Senate.

One could argue that he could have saved capitalism. If he ignored all those splinter groups (stuck with the status quo) and let them foster into something bigger, the socialists could have became a viable third party.
 
Had FDR not acted, we stood the chance of losing all our rights, as Communism and Facism became appealing options for the frustrated and unhelped masses.

FDR saved Capitalism in the US, and restored people's faith in business. But I guess he should of did nothing and had us end up in a post WWI Germany financial situation, right? Because freedom and what not.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
What a load of bull crap. Special assistance from the government is not some recent liberal construct.

The fact that George Will had to go back to FDR, and IGNORED the problems that preceded FDR, as if it were a magical age of happy bootstrapeteers, is jarring in its absurduty.

George Will is and always has been a mildly clever cartoonist who simply lacks the ability to draw.
 

Crisco

Banned
I think it's finally happening. The steaming pile of horse manure coming from Romney's campaign has gotten so rank that the media can no longer ignore the stink.
 
There is a way to do that and it's to drop the gun control crap. It would pull in more than it would lose (and besides where they hell are they going? lol)

Here's the thing I don't get, federal dems basically have, including obama, who's payed the lightest of lip service to renewing the assault weapons ban, yet in actual deeds has only expanded gun ownership rights. Yet all I hear from my black powder club, dad, and the NRA is how the gov. is on the verge of forcibly taking our guns.

As someone who seems to as close to a single issue voter on the isuse as I've seen (at least, you seem to be a registered dem, and be fairly centrist in regard to fiscal, and liberal with regard to social policies, but the gun issue seems to be forefront for you, correct me if I'm wrong), what about what the federal dems have done or not done is so offensive to you?
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Here's the thing I don't get, federal dems basically have, including obama, who's payed the lightest of lip service to renewing the assault weapons ban, yet in actual deeds has only expanded gun ownership rights. Yet all I hear from my black powder club, dad, and the NRA is how the gov. is on the verge of forcibly taking our guns.

As someone who seems to as close to a single issue voter on the isuse as I've seen (at least, you seem to be a registered dem, and be fairly centrist in regard to fiscal, and liberal with regard to social policies, but the gun issue seems to be forefront for you, correct me if I'm wrong), what about what the federal dems have done or not done is so offensive to you?

This is just Manos engaging in pundit's fallacy. He personally has a thing for guns so he thinks NRA fellatio is good politics, even though it barely shows up in polling about what people think is important.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1675/most-important-problem.aspx

Guns weren't what drove working class whites from the Dem party and they aren't what will bring them back.
 

pigeon

Banned
There is a way to do that and it's to drop the gun control crap. It would pull in more than it would lose (and besides where they hell are they going? lol)

Frankly, I think I basically agree -- most arguments I see for gun control I think are really arguments for social justice and whatnot. I feel like saying we have a gun problem because of urban unrest is like saying we have a wheelchair problem because of polio. In some ways, I think the biggest complication here is that a lot of Democratic voters (me included) really don't think that much about gun control, and so the people who do have strong feelings end up setting the platform. I could be wildly misunderstanding my party, though.

Good post.

Might be hard to pull that off and still support free trade as much as they do now.

Thanks. I agree that connecting with the working class more effectively while still supporting an import-based economy is really a tightrope walk -- it's not intrinsically problematic that blue-collar jobs are shrinking unless blue-collar is all you know how to do, but if it is it's disastrous. I wonder whether we might benefit from something like the WPA again. If there's one organization that can always use "unskilled" labor for something, it's the federal government -- and as a benefit, we also get an infrastructure revitalization investment we desperately need.

George Will nailed it this morning:

This is a deeply ironic analysis, since FDR's creation of welfare had the effect of dislodging the "ward boss" politicians who did, in fact, make their living off of providing direct services to constituents, in the form of graft, corruption, and of course the threat of withdrawing support. Either the federal government is going to do something (besides raise an army) or it isn't. If it does things, inevitably those things are going to benefit certain groups more than others, and you can call that special pleading of you want to -- but if it doesn't do things, local services will spring up to do those things, and without federal oversight there's no guarantee, and every likelihood, that those local services are not going to be even more corrupt and beholden to special interest, with their biggest special interest being their own continuance of power. It's regulatory capture in one person -- very efficient, in a sense. The larger the governing body, by contrast, the harder it is to suborn it effectively. Check out Edwin O'Connell's The Last Hurrah for an interesting discussion of this at one point (it's also just a good book).


Man, the Associated Press has really been laying into the RNC. They did an article about the platform adoption on Tuesday in which Medicare vouchers were the lede, too.
 

kaching

"GAF's biggest wanker"
Yes, Paul Ryan is a politician.
Degree matters though and, probably more importantly, so does efficacy. Set aside the moral implications if you want but still do a risk analysis, in any case. This campaign has lied about so much and seen so little for it - it hasn't gifted them a commanding lead or any large bump in polls, has it? Meanwhile, they're building to such a critical mass of dishonesty that even the normally timid, gun-shy press is starting to have a hard time overlooking their transgressions.
 
I was looking through the campaign finances of this election and comparing them to the 2008 campaigns.

I'm kind of confused. Despite the Super PAC ruling, the Romney campaign's total receipts as of August 2012 total $196 million, and as of February 2012, the Super PAC Restore Our Future has raised $43 million.

The Obama 2012 campaign has receipts that total $356 million.

Now these figures are certainly huge. But if you compare them to the 2008 election finances, they seem to be following a very similar trajectory.

2008 McCain Campaign receipts: $370 million
2008 Obama Campaign receipts: $670 million.

So what's the deal here? Are Super PACs not raising the amount of money we feared they would?
 
I was looking through the campaign finances of this election and comparing them to the 2008 campaigns.

I'm kind of confused. Despite the Super PAC ruling, the Romney campaign's total receipts as of August 2012 total $196 million, and as of February 2012, the Super PAC Restore Our Future has raised $43 million.

The Obama 2012 campaign has receipts that total $356 million.

Now this certainly seems like a lot of money. But if you compare it to the 2008 elections, it seems to be following a very similar trajectory.

2008 McCain Campaign receipts: $370 million
2008 Obama Campaign receipts: $670 million.

So what's the deal here? Are Super PACs not raising the amount of money we feared they would?
It's not even September yet. It's going to get bigger. A LOT bigger.


Also from Obama's Facebook:

294513_10151140727496749_1235146037_n.jpg
 
Heh. Noticeably missing from that bingo card: "welfare" and "build that." I guess Chicago really does have some concern about the new GOP message.
Didn't notice that, but you're right. Welfare and didn't build that definitely seem like they're going to be sticking. I really what guns the democrats are going to pull out during the convention and beyond. I mean we've discussed practically everything already, so I really hope they have something big concerning Romney's taxes. But I guess this is not yet the time when everyone is paying attention so there's going to be plenty of rehashing too.
 

Kosmo

Banned
Didn't notice that, but you're right. Welfare and didn't build that definitely seem like they're going to be sticking. I really what guns the democrats are going to pull out during the convention and beyond. I mean we've discussed practically everything already, so I really hope they have something big concerning Romney's taxes. But I guess this is not yet the time when everyone is paying attention so there's going to be plenty of rehashing too.

I don't think the Obama campaign, in their wildest dreams, thought they would ever give the Romney campaign enough fodder to base a whole night of the convention around. Tuesday was "We Built It!" for 2-3 straight hours of speeches in addition to it being all over the convention hall.
 
Here's the thing I don't get, federal dems basically have, including obama, who's payed the lightest of lip service to renewing the assault weapons ban, yet in actual deeds has only expanded gun ownership rights. Yet all I hear from my black powder club, dad, and the NRA is how the gov. is on the verge of forcibly taking our guns.
Not when it comes to Senators and House Reps. Schumer, Fienstein, and numerous others keep trying to get bills banning "assault weapons" hi cap mags, ammo buying on line passed, it may go no were, but it engenders a ton of bad will and fuels the Democrats are coming for our guns and if they win in 2012 Obama will have the support to do it. blah blah .

It doesn't have to be Obama, it's the House and Senate members...including people who want to ban flash hiders on guns, but when asked had no clue what it was (and yes I can give a link).

As someone who seems to as close to a single issue voter on the isuse as I've seen (at least, you seem to be a registered dem, and be fairly centrist in regard to fiscal, and liberal with regard to social policies, but the gun issue seems to be forefront for you, correct me if I'm wrong), what about what the federal dems have done or not done is so offensive to you?
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles...-to-tighten-gun-control-in-two-separate-bills

It's stupid and pointless and they gain nothing that they don't lose voters for with it. As I said telling people to pound sand on Gun Control isn't going to get them to vote Republican. It's a gimmie to the Republicans.

I vote Democratic, but then I have to also help ensure none of the goofy wing gets to much power and starts doing stupid stuff via lobbying trying to find pro-gun Democrats (which in parts of PA isn't that hard, but say in NJ or NY...yeah right) or fund/support things to ensure a gun control agenda can't pass. It's a balancing act and one I wish I didn't have to do it (though pro-gun democracts I'm find with I mean the other end).

Frankly, I think I basically agree -- most arguments I see for gun control I think are really arguments for social justice and whatnot. I feel like saying we have a gun problem because of urban unrest is like saying we have a wheelchair problem because of polio. In some ways, I think the biggest complication here is that a lot of Democratic voters (me included) really don't think that much about gun control, and so the people who do have strong feelings end up setting the platform. I could be wildly misunderstanding my party, though.
No, that's pretty much correct. It's ironic because as I often mention John Testor has one of the highest NRA rankings of anyone and supported the ACA, and Democratic party positions.

^The USA today article I read this morning was pretty glowing.



http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/167978706.html

A bit more rounded round-up

Thanks!
 

ToxicAdam

Member
Holy shit, I can't believe that 'Holo-Reagan' actually blew up into a news story.

I'm going to take credit for it, even though a few people had mentioned it on Twitter before I posted it here. (I checked after I posted it)
 

Dude Abides

Banned
I don't think the Obama campaign, in their wildest dreams, thought they would ever give the Romney campaign enough fodder to base a whole night of the convention around. Tuesday was "We Built It!" for 2-3 straight hours of speeches in addition to it being all over the convention hall.

I'm pretty sure the Obama campaign was well aware that the GOP is perfectly willing and able to center its campaign around out of context quotations and distortion. The 2004 convention theme was smearing a veteran, after all.
 
Holy shit, I can't believe that 'Holo-Reagan' actually blew up into a news story.

I'm going to take credit for it, even though a few people had mentioned it on Twitter before I posted it here. (I checked after I posted it)

My mother in law (when arriving to watch our daughter for my wife and me today) even heard of it when I mentioned it to her, though she said that it was just a joke. So it had some really good traction!
 

Clevinger

Member
I don't think the Obama campaign, in their wildest dreams, thought they would ever give the Romney campaign enough fodder to base a whole night of the convention around. Tuesday was "We Built It!" for 2-3 straight hours of speeches in addition to it being all over the convention hall.

It's not very hard to have 2-3 straight hours of speeches that are based on a distortion and besides that mostly contradict the very point they're trying to make.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's very effective with low information voters. But I'm not sure how it's at all outside of their wildest dreams. It's about what you expect from Romney.
 

RDreamer

Member
Is it really good of them to use Freedom (even if it's misused) as a bad thing like the other terms inclusion imply and Iran (suggesting it's not important)?

Yeah, those particular things require you to have background knowledge in why they might be there, but I think most people on Obama's Facebook know that or understand that. Maybe they should have used scare quotes around "Freedom" :p
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom