MasterCornholio
Member
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PS5's SSD is "far ahead" of those found in high-end PCs, according to Epic Games CEO Tim Sweeney
- Thread starter DeepEnigma
- Start date
- News Hardware Platform
Thirty7ven
Banned
Framerate fluctuates, it’s not locked right? How can it be locked at 40 FPS?
When he says the demo is running at 40fps on his laptop, it’s at the beginning of the demo. With this what I want to say is we can’t just deduce his laptop is hitting 40 FPS all the time..
I’m not saying it doesn’t I’m saying he doesn’t say it, just like he doesn’t say what detail settings, or resolution, or what kind of hardware it has.
That’s all.
MasterCornholio
Member
Is it FUD stuff?
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
ethomaz
Banned
The video interview is real but seems like what happened:
- Running in a notebook with inferior hardware he archived 40fps at 1440p.
- Lower graphics and details due the lower hardware
So people (reddit) assumed it was running at same quality/detail as PS5 demo and made the claims.
And some GAFers are using it to say they were vindicated
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MasterCornholio
Member
The video interview is real but seems like what happened:
- Running in a notebook with inferior hardware he archived 40fps at 1440p.
- Lower graphics and details due the lower hardware
So people (reddit) assumed it was running at same quality/detail as PS5 demo and made the claims.
And some GAFers are using it to say they were vindicated
Ahhh ok now I understand where the FUD is being made.
Thanks for letting me know.
MasterCornholio
Member
Oops made a mistake there.
I meant the Lockhart which I think will be called Xbox Series S.
Sorry about that.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
MasterCornholio
Member
I expect the cheaper Xbox to outsell the more expensive one while the PS5 will remain on top mostly due tomorrow its loyal PS4 user base.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Don’t make me quote the pic again. Not that I disagree.
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FranXico
Member
Mark my words, a certain youtube channel is going to have a video based on this and implying that same exact idea uploaded very soon.The video interview is real but seems like what happened:
- Running in a notebook with inferior hardware he archived 40fps at 1440p.
- Lower graphics and details due the lower hardware
So people (reddit) assumed it was running at same quality/detail as PS5 demo and made the claims.
And some GAFers are using it to say they were vindicated
MasterCornholio
Member
I don't want the Lockhart to exist but it appears that it will whether we like it or not.
JareBear: Remastered
Banned
Talking sales? If so, I don't think Series X will sell less than Series S
Everything isn't FUD. This is becoming a pretty lazy buzzword IMO.
Is that specifically stated?
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
ethomaz
Banned
Nope... the Epic China didn’t say the resolution but he is running in a way weaker GPU so Beyond3D believes it was in 1080p.
Anyway
Thirty7ven
made a resume from the translations discussed in Beyond3D.
Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD
It's razor sharp before action because that's how compression works. With worse quality of most streaming services right now, you're going to get artifacts in moving fragments of the video, that ball to be precise. Raytracing artifacts look different, more grainy. Also there's no reason why a...
The Beyond3D link to stop the FUD:https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/unreal-engine-5-2021-tech-demo.61740/page-28
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pyrocro
Member
it does not have to be stated for this guy, he is making it up as he goes along.
Making one false claim after another.
MasterCornholio
Member
If the price of 300$ is true than that would make it around 200$ less than the Series X. That's why I think it will sell better than it.
Also I think the FUD stuff is the misinterpretation of what the Chinese Epic guy is saying.
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Ascend
Member
No, I didn't take that into account. I simply looked at streaming from the storage device into RAM (or to GPU, doesn't matter). The wider bandwidth on the XSX will primarily allow for higher resolution and/or more graphical effects. Note that I only took into account raw data, and didn't take any additional features into account. Obviously compression, the max transfer speed never being used for practical reasons, and other things are going to change the picture a bit.
That gives us a hint as to how much data they are actually streaming from the SSD. SATA 3's max throughput is 750 MB/s (in practice, closer to 550 MB/s). So they are streaming more than that."Epic also appreciated the benefits of the PS5's SSD, noting that such graphics cannot be achieved using a hard drive or even a SATA SSD as they do not have enough speed to load the high resolution textures as they are needed.If we want to use those textures on PC, we will need if or if a high speed NVME SSD. "
For PC at least a GeForce RTX 2070 Super to run the Unreal Engine 5 demo smoothly
And that's not bad at all when you think about it. Epic discussed the requirements to run this demo properly on PC, revealing that at least one RTX 2070 Super is required....www.guru3d.com
RTX 2070 or SATA SSD which graphics card does the Unreal Engine 5 demo require?
It is not possible to play Unreal Engine 5 demo with SATA SSD. The demo can be played on the PC with RTX 2070 Super graphics card.play4.uk
The fact that he didn't mention PCIe 3.0 not being sufficient, makes me assume that that would be enough... So... Standard NVMe drives are connected to PCIe x4, which are a max of 3.94 GB/s for PCIe 3.0. Most drives are rated not higher than 3.5GB read speeds on PCIe 3.0. If we assume that PCIe 3.0 is enough, the demo would be using somewhere between 750 MB/s and 3.5 GB/s. I'm, suspecting it would be closer to the lower end of that spectrum. But that is pure speculation.
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Great Hair
Banned
Let me tell you why, this card is garbage :
It costs up to 3,000 canadian dollars. It requires 16x pciexp. lanes. The raid card offers up to 4? m2 slot, each limited to 4x speeds. A raid 0 setup increases access&seek times.
AM4&Intel cpus only have 24 pciexp. lanes avaib. 4x pciexp. lanes are used for chipset><cpu exchange. Another 4x pciexp. are used for the top m2 nvme slot.
24 minus 4, minus 4 = remaining 16x pciexp. lanes reserved for the GPU. Now some boards allow bifurcation (splitting the 16x to 2x 8 or if there are more slots even 4x4x4x4). 99% of the AM4 do not support bifurcation, bet its no different on Intel side.
The chipset grants another 20? pciexp. lanes for all the other devices, other m2 nvme slots. Remember that the AM4 chipset is limited to 4x pciexp. (CPU><chipset).
Having 2x more nvme connected thru the chipset is rubbish, as they´re limited to 4x speeds and a 4x speed between the cpu and the chipset. You can test it, by benchmarking both nvme at the same time.
This pointless overpriced raid 0 card is meant for threadripper, x299 owners and they´re not that dumb to drop $3000 on a useless crap that´s limited to 4x speeds (internally among the 4 m2 nvme drives), when for that money you can get 3x U2 Intel Enterprise Server grade 8TB SSD (or used to, check ebay).
Desktop PC like AM4, Intel 115x, 1200 do not offer enough pciexp. via cpu. The chipset pciexp. are limited in speed, since it has to communicate with the cpu at 4x pciexp. speed.
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ToadMan
Member
UE is multiplat.
PS5 runs it “awesome”. So does Xsex. So does PC. So does PS4 and xbone. So does Switch.
They all run it awesome - but they don’t all run it without compromises. That’s the point - how much compromise is necessary.
To be honest I don’t think Epic would produce an engine where it clearly favoured a particular platform or hardware config and saying there is something inherent about PS5 that makes this demo possible is reaching.
The only question is what are the design constraints a team has to work to in order to make a multiplat game in UE5 and were any of those constraints breached for this demo running in PS5. I don’t think so, but it’s not clear yet.
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Guilty_AI
Member
Why did i get an quote alert by your post?
Kazekage1981
Member
I think the main barrier to break here is the PERCEPTION of the SSD being more than a storage device, and actually contributing the graphics fidelity. It is not that PS4 and Xbone and PC did not use hard drives for streaming of graphical assets before, they do to some degree but negligible amount or no one really noticed because its not the main thing developers are targeting when making a game. No one designs games around SSDs, they target the: CPU, GPU, RAM. Its only now that the timing is right for not only just to put a SSD drive to eliminate loading times, but to use the SSD that contributes to graphics and works with the GPU.
Interesting to say the least. I finally get it now
Interesting to say the least. I finally get it now
Lethal01
Member
As I said above this is simply not true and what i listed is facts. Not only did Epic say it scales HARD with GPU but the little amount unique assets and unique textures (1-2 MB each) means you are not swapping textures to get to the right one like you would in a real game with 10,000 unique texture. They are even using virtual texturing which makes streaming even easier as it reduces texture memory overhead dramatically. Its night and day.
To the people claiming you have to reduce the texture size to run on XSX.
A scene with about 80 unique textures give or take using virtual texturing which reduces texture memory overhead dramatically can't run on the XSX? That's absolute ridiculous.
Do people even realize that the Kite Demo from UE4 years ago had 8k textures? This ISN'T new!
So what you are saying is this tiny vertical slice could run on anything but real games with tons of unique assets being moved will be drastically helped by the SSD.
Got it.
/Sony marketing people "so how do we counter the more powerful CPU/GPU in our competitor?"
/Sony marketing people "lets tell everyone that an SSD is what will define gaming graphics next gen"
/Sony marketing people "but doesn't our competitor have an SSD?"
/Sony marketing people "just tell them only our SSD is what will define gaming graphics next gen"
/Sony marketing people "chortle chortle"
/Sony marketing people "lets tell everyone that an SSD is what will define gaming graphics next gen"
/Sony marketing people "but doesn't our competitor have an SSD?"
/Sony marketing people "just tell them only our SSD is what will define gaming graphics next gen"
/Sony marketing people "chortle chortle"
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sendit
Member
If it does, it will be their Kinect of next generation.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
Silver Wattle
Gold Member
Where did they say it can only run on ps5? Because it sounds like you think Onq's shit thread title was fact.
FranXico
Member
I saw the video that was posted by someone eager to "sick burn" Sony and Epic, in order to score for his favorite plastic box manufacturer.
Triggered PCMR boyz (with a soft spot for MS) being extremely disingenuous and oversimplifying the new consoles I/O integration.
Linus says "Sony just slapped in a PCIE4 SSD". No, they did not just slap in an SSD. "We don't know how the hardware is like", he says. Well, the hardware designer gave a lengthy explanation on their custom integration. If Linus is too arrogant to watch it or admit he didn't understand it, that's his problem.
My favorite part is "global illumination is not new, but ray-tracing is new!". No Linus, ray-tracing is not new either. Lighter implementations of ray-tracing have been done on software for many years.
And all of this after "tong-in-cheek" calling Sweeny a liar.
It goes without saying, later on they put some needed perspective and remind what people really care about in consoles. And it's not GPUs nor SSDs.
But still, GTFO with your self-aggrandizing BS, Linus.
Triggered PCMR boyz (with a soft spot for MS) being extremely disingenuous and oversimplifying the new consoles I/O integration.
Linus says "Sony just slapped in a PCIE4 SSD". No, they did not just slap in an SSD. "We don't know how the hardware is like", he says. Well, the hardware designer gave a lengthy explanation on their custom integration. If Linus is too arrogant to watch it or admit he didn't understand it, that's his problem.
My favorite part is "global illumination is not new, but ray-tracing is new!". No Linus, ray-tracing is not new either. Lighter implementations of ray-tracing have been done on software for many years.
And all of this after "tong-in-cheek" calling Sweeny a liar.
It goes without saying, later on they put some needed perspective and remind what people really care about in consoles. And it's not GPUs nor SSDs.
But still, GTFO with your self-aggrandizing BS, Linus.
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ToadMan
Member
Wait wait wait. Tehncology moves on - waiting isn't the point.
The point is that
1) PC SSDs are struggling to achieve their stated transfer speeds - Cerny went so far as to mention this in his presentation and asked consumers to hold off on any purchases until Sony have tested M.2 SSD performance.
2) When PC SSDs catch up to the transfer performance of the PS5 solution, they'll still be slower because the architecture of the PS5 is designed to maintain the throughput system wide. As Epic said - Sony have put 825Gb of flash RAM very close to the CPU and GPU.
3) Because 99% of PCs lack the capability, games targeting PC platforms will be designed for HDD transfer speeds. The SSD solution in PS5 is there so developers and designers don't have to compromise their visons in order to match HDD transfer speeds.
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Self_Destructive
Member
We'll see about this.. lol.
As I've said before... being more efficient, does not mean that it will be more performant.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I really like how after giving tech the competitors had a much better version of a marketing/PR nickname to make it feel special you are accusing Sony of just playing marketing games. Classy...The other fun thing is seeing all this “come on we have an SSD that is very fast too, actually the gap is not as wide as you think” come straight after the “so what if it is 2x as fast, what are you going to do with 1s vs 2s of loading times” just as the engineers in the UE5 demos and their techie CEO directly tie Quality if the graphics experience to the SSD (people get upset about PS fans not “respecting” the 18% GPU performance difference, for trying to come up with arguments to close the gap, and then make absurd arguments to try to close a 200% or so one).
Both Microsoft’s infinite pockets for Xbox and Sony has similar R&D budgets and this time slightly different goals: instead of spending all their silicon budget on the same size GPU they bet on a speed demon solution and invested the saved transistors and budget on the SSD tech and on providing HW acceleration end to end for the I/O pipeline from disk page to GPU caches to remove any bottlenecks.
Of course some Xbox fans can not accept that as a valid tradeoff because it is not one favouring the area they are winning on and they cannot do their Scorpio like superiority dances I guess, but hearing this (on the SSD, before it was about the clocks, and RT not being really HW accelerated... excuse of not having enough info, things not being clear enough...
) is as sad as Sony fans mounting up speculations and FUD around supposed bottlenecks that nullified the XSX CPU and GPU advantages outside of specific synthetic benchmarks.
GreenAlien
Member
Who said that?
I think that's just a fallacy. 99% of PCs also lack good graphics cards, that doesn't mean multi-platform titles target extremely outdated ones and with UE5 running on anything, it doesn't matter. Either HDD owners will just settle for minimum requirements and if that doesnt work games that need it will just up the requirements, like they do all the time. PC gamers that care even a little about graphics already have SSDs as their main drive or will upgrade the moment a game they want demands one.
It's no different from every other time new consoles came out.
Steam Hardware Survey doesn't even collect/show info about how many SSDs are out there.
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Although it is very likely the case with a console solution hand tuned for a specific use case and with the software stack being built around it without worrying about compatibility thousands of users’ setups like desktop OS’s have to?
D DoctaThompson that is valid for Xbox too you triggered you
... this is how you spot warriors, comments meant for both consoles triggering people.
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And MS did nothing with the hardware and software stack? come on people both tackled the same problems but the solutions are a bit different , like most stuff in life can be solved in different ways with about the same results .
I do think that , Series X will have the edge in most cases because of wider busses, higher clocked CPU and more Tera flops GPU. Those components are essential for rendering image information.
I do think that , Series X will have the edge in most cases because of wider busses, higher clocked CPU and more Tera flops GPU. Those components are essential for rendering image information.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
They did tackle this problem, but stopped at a point they thought was good enough for them and invested the engineering time and silicon budget in a wider GPU and faster memory (with some compromises) this getting farther ahead (than Sony).
Sony decided that their console was good enough with the GPU tech they worked with AMD on, that it was fast enough for them, and spend their additional engineering time and silicon budget on moving the software and hardware I/O stack further (than MS). They made a very very very big bet, with its own tradeoffs and risks, in the SSD (and audio to a lesser extent) so not surprised they have a large lead there.
This will make first party games on both consoles very very different as they try to make the HW sing while, I agree with you on this, the baseline between both consoles will be pretty similar
DarkMage619
$MSFT
Sony certainly did something different. Still the main beneficiary of this tech will be Sony's first party studios. 3rd party multiplatform developers will make more use of raw graphical and computational horsepower than an exotic SSD. I can't wait to see how the first multiplatform games look across each console. First party title comparisons will be purely subjective.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
While people were busy mocking they knew they had a demo waiting where disk I/O was one of the big factors in determining assets quality, environment traversal, and variety in detail
.This specific demo was choosen by Sony for its first teatime and interactive PS5 outing for a specific reason and likely Epic has been in talks with them for quite a long while too. This demo was built to highlight the SSD difference more than other demos will (but potentially still less than first parties).
Xbox will receive its own different demos where the extra shader FLOPS and Series X features will be the star of the show more than other demos will (but potentially still less than first parties).
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Sony will still get a win out of UE5 like Xbox will as both ship with a very fast I/O setup and by helping Epic to make disk I/O one of the stars of the show they give third parties leverages to more cheaply give their console some unique or better features as the same third parties will use specific XSX functionality to give games a different edge when running on XSX. This may actually push people to double dip on third party games more
which is a win for both consoles.
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Banned
well they target the consoles, and that is why they're held back till new console generations.
ToadMan
Member
Garphics is just a case of textures and polygons that can be adjusted programmatically and at runtime.
Cerny says his vision is that the PS5 SSD solution will lead to fundamental changes in games design - no LOD, no corridors, elevators or HDD limited speed limits. His vision is that designers will put in the gameplay elements and game worlds they choose without compromising - they won't need to balance gameplay and world design against technical limitations of storage transfer speed.
If Cerny is proved right, it's not possible to simply take a game which is designed without slow storage transfer considerations in mind and run it on such a system without significant re-engineering or setting high speed SSD only specs for the PC putting it outside the capability of 95% of them.
This is the problem for PC - you cant take a game designed to work with extreme data transfer speeds and simply downscale it to HDD or slow SSD speeds. Suddenly, LOD, elevators, doors, move speed all come back into the equation - what would you do? Take your open world game and put a wall with a door somewhere mid way through the open countryside, reduce player movement speed, or scale back the geometry and textures to the point its unrecognisable? All these solutions require the game world to be redesigned or reengineered to allow the storage medium to feed the GPU.
Ultimately it wont matter for multiplats - they will target the lowest common denominator which will be PC. Xsex will just be lumped in with PCs so we wont see much change there either.
So it'll be down to Sony 1st/2nd Party to make this happen - given the way Sony have been talking I imagine when we finally see Sony's first party games they'll be pointing out exactly how their games are designed without artificial constraints. Spiderman 2 and HZD 2 are the games I anticipate will play this up to the max.
phil_t98
#SonyToo
well do you think PC or XBSX will run it less than PS5?
geordiemp
Member
Best explanation I have read so far and the translation does mention 1080p and mb/s and 2 traingle per pixel....
So everything can run the demo at different resolutions and levels of detail is your answer.
Yes that laptop can run that UE5 demo, at 10 % detail is the rough calculation.......Nothing has changed.
So yes of course XSX can run UE5 demo, question is at what settings we do not know.
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phil_t98
#SonyToo
its a scalable engine we all know that and also we dont know the demo size or how much bandwidth the engine was pushing off the SSD at the moment so its all guess work
geordiemp
Member
Yes of course, but the chinese engineer translation does mention laptop, he does mention 1080p and 2 traingles per pixel ..and MB/s storage.....so if you want to get hints from the UE5 china Q&A then fine.
If you believe that ps5 demo could run on any PC at same fidelity, then thats your belief.....but that logic ignores all the statements from UE5 given.
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phil_t98
#SonyToo
the only quote we have off Tim is that it would be downscaled on HDD, he said that currant (by this I think he means top end) Pc can run this demo awesome. people have just interpreted that to mean not as good as PS5. we will see I guess.