spoken like a true person who hates pc gaming but wasted 1600 dollars on a 4090 to say how much they don't like it. sure bud
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PSSR Could Potentially Be More Important Than Direct Increase in GPU Power – Dying Light: The Beast Dev
- Thread starter Lunatic_Gamer
- Start date
- News Game Dev Platform
this shit is so annoying and it happens every single time sony releases anything. last time it was psvr2 hyped into oblivion, this time it's ps5 pro that surely will overpower quantum computing for 700 dollars.Sony fanboys right now
Having too much expectations
Killjoy-NL
Gold Member
Took thursday and friday off from work. PS5 Pro was a good excuse.
Hopefully Sony delivers it on the 7th. When Portal released, DPD kept it in Eindhoven (Netherlands), waiting for delivery a few days later.
That's like a 1.5hr drive from my home.
Sony got a lot of complaints for it (incl me) and must've contacted DPD asap, as suddenly it was set for delivery the next day.
Hopefully they learned from it. I hate waiting.
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bender
What time is it?
Looks like the stock room of a Gamestop.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
I’d say it is.
Doesn’t have to be. Thus far, it looks close enough and is much, much better than FSR. I’d say getting proper AI reconstruction where 1440p in some respects can look as good as native 4K is a game changer.
Lol, always this one guy.
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SplunkyMunkey
Member
Difference is amd has been in it for a while and fsr 3 absolutely sucks. Sony is just starting to release the pssr and is already near comparible to dlss and nvidia been doing it for years
Luipadre
Gold Member
It is game changer for consoles...
You're both not surprised but tell that to the likes of
Bojji
and co with their "but the XOneX was 4tf bro". This thread is for them.
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Ironman_Bad
Member
captainnapalm
Member
I'm sure it will be - the amount of frames these AI tools can get you back is insane.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
Ai upscaling has been incredibly important for the last 6 years. It's great that Sony has introduced it to consoles so that by next gen it is the norm.
We can hopefully have good graphics with a decent none smeared mess. With good raytracing on console next gen too.
We can hopefully have good graphics with a decent none smeared mess. With good raytracing on console next gen too.
hinch7
Member
Pretty much. Having a ML and DLSS-like upscaler is big for console gamers.
Like DLSS. It'll become more of a nessesity these days to have good performance and image quality. Looking forward to the implications it has for PS6 when the next proper leap comes.
jm89
Member
Yup.
DLSS has been a game changer on pc, now pssr will be the same for playstation consoles.
There also isn't a wide gulf between dlss and pssr either, sony has done a really good job first try.
If AMD get their shit together, the next playstation console will have both PSSR and AMDs AI upscaler.
Sethbacca
Member
PSSR is only on v1 here. Nvidia is on v4. Pretty good that they’re so close considering how long NVidia already been at it.
Radical_3d
Member
Bojji
Member
You're both not surprised but tell that to the likes of
Xbox one X was 6TF and over 4x times stronger than Xbox one (over 3x the PS4). It could render games in native 4k when base console was 900p.
Look where we are now, Alan Wake 2 is less than 900p on Pro. We are evolving... but backwards!
PSSR is game changer, it's the best thing about the console but it's not comparable at all to 3x or 4x more raw power - with jump like that every game would be native 4k without any need for PSSR or DLSS solutions.
Also, GG thinks that they their solution is better so they clearly don't agree with DL devs here.
. He’s a little hater but he’s right calling out the price outside the USA.
Remind me what was this bet again? I genuinely don't remember hahaha. You can even find my posts when first rumors appeared, I was always saying that Pro was needed to fix games because developers are constantly fucking up things and here we are - after cross gen ended most big games look like shit on PS5 and Xbox series X.
Sony fucked my interest with ridiculous price and lack od disc drive. Somewhere down the line I will buy this console, probably when Sony drops some big (time) exclusive.
artsi
Member
I have a PC with 4090 so I don't need to worry if PS5 Pro is more powerful than some PC.
Only thing I really care about, is that it's better than PS5 for all the exclusive games that I can't play on PC or those games where I want to collect trophies without the IQ looking like crap.
Only thing I really care about, is that it's better than PS5 for all the exclusive games that I can't play on PC or those games where I want to collect trophies without the IQ looking like crap.
PaintTinJr
Member
No that's not possible because it runs in games at 120fps, meaning the frame time limit on PSSR is way below half of the 8.4ms, meaning at worst case guestimation a 60fps game is using 10% of a frame render time for PSSR on the Pro.
After the good sales of the Pro, and it being the new console kid on the block to pixel count, I suspect PSSR will get a PS5 release too, and will just need native to be in the 720p, 900p range for 4K60, because without the dual issue feature keeping PSSR to a presumed 2ms frame cost on Pro will need it to steal twice that on PS5, and so will need lower native to claw back that frame time.
BlackTron
Member
The point is that PSSR could be more important than giving us better PS5 GPU if it helps acts as a catalyst for such an AI solution to become more ubiquitous for the "common good".
It's not about how PSSR could benefit games its applied to "even more importantly" than we thought.
It's not about how PSSR could benefit games its applied to "even more importantly" than we thought.
Killjoy-NL
Gold Member
I think people forget that EU is already likely to pay higher prices since logistics suffer from the Red Sea situation with Houthis/Yemen.
PaintTinJr
Member
I have an inkling that devs have had the info on PSSR since the start of the gen and have been a little lax on PS5/XsX image quality improvements because they don't want to set the bar so high they can't easily beat it with a PSSR patch - in the way first party games are battling in PSSR comparison videos - and because it was a waste of their time if they know by the end of gen they will have PSSR on Pro and PS5 making it automatically look better.
Games like Astro's Playroom and Demon's souls have looked amazing from the start, as do sports games, but most single player games are either image quality compromised or performance compromised IMO, meaning they all need a Pro or PSSR to sell as a generational improvement over the PS4's best.
Nitty_Grimes
Made a crappy phPBB forum once ... once.
But... free online though and no 'walled gardens' (cough *Steam* cough) and the biggest 'walled garden' of the lot - Windows - and emulators that just work though...
And...you'll you read it on here, what you said NEVER happens and is just FUD
/s
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FrankWza
Gold Member
No we're not evolving backwards we're evolving forwards because AI upscaling gives you that 4k image quality in more games at a better framerate.
The PS5/XSX has native 4k games too just like One X that could render "some" games at 4k. With PSSR we can upscale to 8k. That's evolving forwards.
The point is though that this upscale is more important than the direct increase in GPU power because it gives you comparable or better 4k+ image quality without the framerate/optimisation hit that native would. Games that have effects that can't scale to 4k native resolutions very well. AI upscaling like DLSS and PSSR just gives you that quality without some particular thing holding the game back from achieving 4k quality at higher framerates. I'd go even as far as to say you are getting double the framerate for the same image quality in most games.
It's comparable. The only reason you needed 3-4x the GPU power was to achieve the same image quality because AI upscaling was in its infancy. And no it wouldn't give you 4k in every game. Look no further than Halo infinite on base One vs One X. Dynamic 720-1080p on base xbox One vs Dynamic 1440-4k on Xbox one x but mostly hovering in 1800p with no AI upscaling to help it achieve any better.
OK but what makes you think they're not upscaling with their own solution which they consider more important?
Bojji
Member
You have 45% GPU upgrade vs. over 300% more plus 50% more RAM - what is the bigger upgrade here?
PSSR won't make 800p look like 4k:
This technology isn't magic and has limitations, both for DLSS and PSSR - developers are pushing it already on day one.
GG are doing upscaling with their own solution but it's not ML based AFAIK, it can run on any hardware, new hardware in PS5 Pro goes to waste.
What we've been discussing? Maybe look at the title of the thread.
You're hung up on 1 game that isn't even 800p.
PSSR won't make 800p look like 4k:
It's not "magic" but it does upscale from a lower than 4k res to an image quality that is comparable to 4k quality, that's a fact. you're trying to disparage it with the use of the word "magic" but you have no problem applying that word for nvidia stuff.
NeverYouMind
Member
Funny how they forgot about the bottleneck of a decade old CPU... (AI can't make up that difference.)
Sethbacca
Member
Power hasn't been, and won't be, scaling linearly. Like it or not, ancillary technologies like RT, DLSS/ML, frame gen techniques, etc are going to be equally important as straight rasterization performance going forward. We hit the point of diminishing returns on straight up brute forcing graphics long ago. The "bigger" upgrade is the one that provides the more useful uplift to current GPU workloads. If you can do a 45% uplift with some bespoke tech to flesh it out and provide the same level of visual uplift as just brute forcing 300% more tflops, then the better solution is the one that got you to the same point cheaper because we all know a 300% increase in GPU at this point would mean a $2000 console.
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jm89
Member
Good thing most games aren't cpu bottlenecked. And some of those that are can be optimised as we have seen with some games.Funny how they forgot about the bottleneck of a decade old CPU... (AI can't make up that difference.)
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Topher
Identifies as young
Yes, but hasn't it been pointed out many times at this point that this was a decision made by Remedy to add more effects rather than to provide a higher rez, cleaner overall image?
NeverYouMind
Member
We will see how well Dragon's Dogma 2 and the like perform on this new revision. Generally it is physics and AI that get downgraded to hell to make it happen.
sendit
Member
We aren’t getting exponential increases in raw power anymore. Exponential increases in raw power has stagnated, even on PC. Why are we applying a different metric in a mid cycle console upgrade?
AI/ML is the future.
NeverYouMind
Member
It is the present. FSR has been in use a long time already even on consoles. It is just poor quality.
sendit
Member
It’s both really. Upscaling and frame gen are just scratching the surface.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
HeisenbergFX4
Member
Its about time
I have brought this up here before we ever knew about PSSR but even early versions of DLSS impressed some of the Xbox brass (especially Ybarra) and he tried hard to get Xbox to chase that for consoles as he said years ago it was the future and Spencer said it was wasted resources
Another one of Phils failures imo
FIREKNIGHT2029
Member
This is great news. A lot of games have garbage optimization and maybe AI based upscaling will help us with this problem.
Cakeboxer
Member
You forgot checkerboard and the secret sauce SSD. But this isn't Sony exclusive. I remember That "hidden" GPU core in Xbox One and the power of the cloud as well. It's a general console fanboy issue.
Topher
Identifies as young
Spencer obviously thought this gen would be won/loss based on who had the most teraflops. All their marketing was geared in that direction. It is going to be pretty damn ironic if "greatest technological leap" that they have been bragging about it AI upscaling tech.
JimboJones
Member
You'd think with a low power Series S they should have been clamouring for it. Would have made the Series S punch way above it's class.
Guess we'll see what a lower power console can do with it in Switch 2.
HeisenbergFX4
Member
100%
I know many here get sick of some of my stories while Ybarra was there but yes indeed they honestly thought every single game would be better on the Seres X just due to that TF number
I also said this before it was before the launch of this gen that Ybarra brought up to us in chat that MS got wind of the PS5 Pro (without looking back at exact dates it was sometime in 2019) and Ybarra even said something along the lines it was a panic move on Sony's part to "catch" the Series X
Even the lead architect on the Series X Jason Ronald was in voice with Ybarra and a few of us watching the road to PS5 and Ronald and Ybarra both laughed at the PS5 SSD saying they blew too much R&D on that and not enough on brute power
I assume its very likely why those at Xbox did not have a pro console counter ready (even though they researched that option at one point)
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Shows how out of touch they were with Sony just marching along at their own beat. The hubris on display is a testament as to how they shaped their evangelical community as well. Everything is "reactionary" to them, since it's pretty much what they do themselves.
As Jobs once said,
Some things never change.
Sethbacca
Member
Man, hindsight has got to be a bitch.
HeisenbergFX4
Member
They don't have visionaries there and if someone likes to inject really new ideas they usually don't accept those people
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I think you are stuck on the old way of game dev programming. Once you get to 4K, the image quality only needs to be stablized. 8K isn't EVER needed. More power in the future will go to better lighting (ie Pathtracing) and physics. You need to remember that the cost for better tech is rising. It's not 2004 anymore.
Nobody gets sick of these stories, because they are interesting and enlightening. It's incredible to me still that MS really thought the Xbox Series X "WAS" their Pro console. Which means they believed their "TRUE\DEFAULT" next-gen console was the Series S.
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