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[HawarMiran]

the FPS are least of it's problems. It looks boring as hell. But enough to feed game pass subscribers i guess

 

[RickMasters]

I just want a delay now. This is a terrible decision.

Agreed. I won’t touch this game until that patch arrives personally. I’m a bit pissed off about this news to be honest. But I’ll wait for the 60FPS mode. They may not want to delay the game but I will surely delay my playtime with it.

 

[adamsapple]

The funny thing is I don't even think most people know what Redfall is. It looks like a Left 4 Dead clone to me but is there really a market for that in 2023? L4D was popular like 20 years ago now.

No, anyone who isn't explicitly shit-posting on the subject knows exactly what it is. It has been made clear extremely well over the last couple of months.

We've known since 2021 what genre of game this is. It has been likened to Borderlands and Far Cry since the reveal trailers and the first batch of info. The L4D and B4B comparisons have been wrong since then and the same couple of names keep repeating it over and over as some kind of a slight against the game or something. Bizarre, really.

 

[Dr. Claus]

No, anyone who isn't explicitly shit-posting on the subject knows exactly what it is. It has been made clear extremely well over the last couple of months.

The only thing made clear extremely well over the last few months is how much a warrior you are. You can't possibly comprehend why people are struggling to get a read on this game and seeing the absolute failure of marketing Arkane and MS have been doing for this title because you are so blinded by your infatuation with a plastic box and brand that doesn't know you exist.

Seek help, Adam.

 

[adamsapple]

The only thing made clear extremely well over the last few months is how much a warrior you are. You can't possibly comprehend why people are struggling to get a read on this game and seeing the absolute failure of marketing Arkane and MS have been doing for this title because you are so blinded by your infatuation with a plastic box and brand that doesn't know you exist.

Seek help, Adam.

Cool story, bro.

Do you have anything substantive to add or just came to drive-by ?

 

[SportsFan581]

But 60fps isn't or "SHOULDN'T" be some minimum bar that all games need to be released at. We don't do that with resolution either. If the game looks good enough, 30fps should be fine.

Agreed. I have no idea about the OLED issue, I play on a cheap PC monitor (though it seems weird that OLEDs can't display the frame rates commonly used in film correctly). Outside of that, it just seems like it would be really bad for the industry to mandate that stationary hardware like consoles must run at x fps. You basically are setting aside 50% of the performance to make sure you are doubling up on the old console target. That's 50% they might really want to use for something else, especially near the end of the generation and into the next cross-gen phase.

If the game the developer wants to make can scale to 60fps (which obviously Redfall can, this comment isn't about that game) that's great, but if it can't I'd rather they target 30fps than limit what they were trying to do. I'm not one to actively push for stagnation in game development.

 

[Dr. Claus]

Cool story, bro.

Do you have anything substantive to add or just came to drive-by ?

I did. People clearly have issues with how this game is marketed and trying to understand the core of what this game is - that isn't people "shitposting", but a failure on MS/Arkane. You know this but purposefully try to be ignorant and dismiss people's concerns because of your pathetic warring.

Do better.

 

[adamsapple]

I did. People clearly have issues with how this game is marketed and trying to understand the core of what this game is - that isn't people "shitposting", but a failure on MS/Arkane. You know this but purposefully try to be ignorant and dismiss people's concerns because of your pathetic warring.

Do better.

Anyone who has legitimate issues deciphering what the game is, is probably not doing a half decent job of looking up info about it. However, most people on this forum are more tuned in than the average casual gamer, so them not using something as simple as google or refer to any of the big gaming news websites to find our more about the game is a failing of their own making.

I'll give you examples from 1 website for 2021, 2022 and 2023.

2021: Redfall, a Vampire Open World Co-op FPS From Arkane Studios
2022: Redfall Won't Have Multiple Endings, How Co-op Progression Works, and More
2023: Redfall Hands-On Preview

These are 3 articles from the same website, very likely all 3 got dedicated GAF threads when they were first published as well. They contain all the info anyone would need to know about the game, especially the second and third article since they go pretty deep into it, the first one was posted immediately after the games announcement so that one can be forgiven. If that website isn't to your liking, pretty much all major websites covered the game similarly.

 

[Pasta la Vista]

What if all this, even the game itself they showed is just a red herring?
Say you get an hour or two into the game and BAM! It was all just a simulation that is taking place on Talos IV.
Redfall is actually PREY 2!

 

[adamsapple]

What if all this, even the game itself they showed is just a red herring?
Say you get an hour or two into the game and BAM! It was all just a simulation that is taking place on Talos IV.
Redfall is actually PREY 2!

I am probably one of the biggest advocates for Prey on GAF.

I will welcome a surprise Prey 2 with open arms even at 20 FPS*

clearly hyperbole, please don't @ me

 

[Chiggs]

I also laught when John from DF said on twitter that will be hard to Unreal Engine 5 games to run at 60 frame rate at launch because is a new engine and lumen... until the reply remind him that this game use Unreal Engine 4.

Yes, nothing escapes the technically-detailed crew at Digital Foundry...except, well, a lot.

Reminds me of John-boy complaining on Twitter about how everyone has to turn things into comparisons between systems...except that's what, you know, he and his merry band of "professionals" have been doing since their channel launched.

The DF crew really needs to stop playing armchair developer, conjuring up fantasies for why games look a certain way

Especially Alex, these takes are insufferable and filled with wild assumptions and no insight into what’s going on with the engine or dev team

Totally agreed. They have zero experience developing games and zero experience in VFX or 3d rendering.

The entire DF crew, sans Leadbetter, are fucking frauds posturing as knowledgeable experts...and a large portion of gamers are too happy to distinguish them as sages.

At least the guys at Corridor Crew truly have the chops to discuss VFX techniques--and can back it up with the work they produce.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I just found out that Redfall doesn’t have co-op progression…seriously? What’s the point of such a co-op focused game? That’s an enormous omission

Guess I’ll be solo’ing a “co op” based game then, which is generally boring AF when the whole game is designed around co op

 

[damidu]

Yes, nothing escapes the technically-detailed crew at Digital Foundry...except, well, a lot.

Reminds me of John-boy complaining on Twitter about how everyone has to turn things into comparisons between systems...except that's what, you know, he and his merry band of "professionals" have been doing since their channel launched.



Totally agreed. They have zero experience developing games and zero experience in VFX or 3d rendering.

The entire DF crew, sans Leadbetter, are fucking frauds posturing as knowledgeable experts...and a large portion of gamers are too happy to distinguish them as sages.

At least the guys at Corridor Crew truly have the chops to discuss VFX techniques--and can back it up with the work they produce.

starting to half agree with this, still find df valuable since they put out actual data thats helpful for making purchase decisions.
but the john/alex duo are borderline insufferable.

alex with his condensending tone and constant bitching towards devs that are magnitudes smarter than him, you know the people that actually create stuff.

and john,well little said better, a man-baby who is always one step away from a complete nervous meltdown.

 

[01011001]

Totally agreed. They have zero experience developing games and zero experience in VFX or 3d rendering.

that is false

The entire DF crew, sans Leadbetter, are fucking frauds posturing as knowledgeable experts...and a large portion of gamers are too happy to distinguish them as sages.

and how do you know that? in order for you to know that you must have better knowledge about this stuff than them, otherwise how would you know that they aren't knowledgeable about it?

so what are you credentials that makes you the expert on how knowledgeable they are?

 

[Chiggs]

that is false

Has someone else joined their team that has industry experience? Last I checked, it was just Leadbetter, who seems like a decent guy...but he was a games journalist.

and how do you know that? in order for you to know that you must have better knowledge about this stuff than them, otherwise how would you know that they aren't knowledgeable about it?

so what are you credentials that makes you the expert on how knowledgeable they are?

Largely because of friends in the gaming industry who have openly mocked them to me and pointed out the issues with their videos, which started because I would occasionally use one of their videos as a reference point in an argument/discussion. From what I gathered, where DF really fails is when they move beyond their traditional frame counting comparisons (not that there aren't issues there) and into the realm of speculation or developer/engine critiques. That's when they reveal themselves to be complete amateurs. Even miniscule stuff, like the Unreal 4/5 mistake by John that I initially responded to...just seems to rear its head frequently.

At one point, a number of my friends/acquaintances in the gaming industry had discussed starting something called DFWatch, which was going to be a site or channel devoted to scrutinizing these video game comparison channels. Nothing ever came of that because of careers, life, etc, with a few of them coming to the conclusion that spending time on the pursuit of something which would just humiliate others wasn't exactly a noble cause.

Personally, though...I kind of feel like it would have been justified.

In terms of my personal experience, I've never worked in game development, but have worked in the entertainment industry and am heavily involved in 3d modelling/rendering. Specifically, that means Blender, Cinema 4D, and ZBrush. In recent years, I've started to use Unreal engine and got some decent training paid for by my company because we're using it to set up virtual storefronts (AR/VR), which is a project I'm a part of.

starting to half agree with this, still find df valuable since they put out actual data thats helpful for making purchase decisions.
but the john/alex duo are borderline insufferable.

I think that's why most people started out viewing them. They tried to act like a Consumer Reports for video gaming...the problem is they've moved weeeeeelllll beyond that.

And as for the part I bolded...yes, definitely.

 

[DenchDeckard]

I am probably one of the biggest advocates for Prey on GAF.

I will welcome a surprise Prey 2 with open arms even at 20 FPS*

clearly hyperbole, please don't @ me

Prey was awesome, I'm with you bro!

 

[aries_71]

I'm personally dissapointed at GAF. I had a personal bet that this thread would reach 50 pages before Sunday and I think I'm going to loose. GAF, come on, you know you can do it!

 

[Daneel Elijah]

.

 

[Daneel Elijah]

Has someone else joined their team that has industry experience? Last I checked, it was just Leadbetter, who seems like a decent guy...but he was a games journalist.



Largely because of friends in the gaming industry who have openly mocked them to me and pointed out the issues with their videos, which started because I would occasionally use one of their videos as a reference point in an argument/discussion. From what I gathered, where DF really fails is when they move beyond their traditional frame counting comparisons (not that there aren't issues there) and into the realm of speculation or developer/engine critiques. That's when they reveal themselves to be complete amateurs. Even miniscule stuff, like the Unreal 4/5 mistake by John that I initially responded to...just seems to rear its head frequently.

At one point, a number of my friends/acquaintances in the gaming industry had discussed starting something called DFWatch, which was going to be a site or channel devoted to scrutinizing these video game comparison channels. Nothing ever came of that because of careers, life, etc, with a few of them coming to the conclusion that spending time on the pursuit of something which would just humiliate others wasn't exactly a noble cause.

Personally, though...I kind of feel like it would have been justified.

In terms of my personal experience, I've never worked in game development, but have worked in the entertainment industry and am heavily involved in 3d modelling/rendering. Specifically, that means Blender, Cinema 4D, and ZBrush. In recent years, I've started to use Unreal engine and got some decent training paid for by my company because we're using it to set up virtual storefronts (AR/VR), which is a project I'm a part of.



I think that's why most people started out viewing them. They tried to act like a Consumer Reports for video gaming...the problem is they've moved weeeeeelllll beyond that.

And as for the part I bolded...yes, definitely.

Great post. Nothing to add there but people can easily fail to differenciate technical knowlege with technical expertise. To have real knowlege from game dev there is the GDC and more dedicated forums like beyond3d. We use DF because they have been good enough and work extensively and regularly on their video since years. Nobody is perfect and I hope that they will continue to try and do the best videos they can. It helps more than it harms in my opinion. Thanks for the insider info.

 

[01011001]

Largely because of friends in the gaming industry who have openly mocked them to me and pointed out the issues with their videos, which started because I would occasionally use one of their videos as a reference point in an argument/discussion. From what I gathered, where DF really fails is when they move beyond their traditional frame counting comparisons (not that there aren't issues there) and into the realm of speculation or developer/engine critiques. That's when they reveal themselves to be complete amateurs. Even miniscule stuff, like the Unreal 4/5 mistake by John that I initially responded to...just seems to rear its head frequently.

At one point, a number of my friends/acquaintances in the gaming industry had discussed starting something called DFWatch, which was going to be a site or channel devoted to scrutinizing these video game comparison channels. Nothing ever came of that because of careers, life, etc, with a few of them coming to the conclusion that spending time on the pursuit of something which would just humiliate others wasn't exactly a noble cause.

then you can surely give egregious examples of this.
and btw. not knowing if a game uses UE4 or UE5 isn't a good example. UE5 is basically the same as UE4 if you don't use the new features... it's also entirely irrelevant tbh in the case of this game.

so, give an example. I'm curious...

 

[RickSanchez]

Arkane's days of making awesome single-player immersive sims feel like a lifetime ago.

Prey 2017 and the two Dishonored games are among the best video games of all time for me.........but after that.....what the fuck even happened to Arkane man ??

And don't tell me about Deathloop. Whether it is by itself a good game or not, it does not match Prey or Dishonored.

 

[01011001]

Arkane's days of making awesome single-player immersive sims feel like a lifetime ago.

Prey 2017 and the two Dishonored games are among the best video games of all time for me.........but after that.....what the fuck even happened to Arkane man ??

And don't tell me about Deathloop. Whether it is by itself a good game or not, it does not match Prey or Dishonored.

this is Akrane Austin's their first game since Prey.

Arkane Lyon, the devs of Dishonored 2 and Deathloop, are not the same devs as Arkane Austin, who made Dishonored 1 and Prey.

Dishonored 2 and Deathloop were the only games so far that Arkane Lyon developed as a fully autonomous studio. before that they were basically the co devs of the main Austin studio.

 

[Chiggs]

then you can surely give egregious examples of this.

so, give an example. I'm curious...

Well, I'd actually appreciate it if you answered my industry experience question first? Have they added someone to their staff that has true game development chops? If they did, that's fantastic...and I'd be more than happy to cut them some slack if that indeed happened.

This doesn't count, either:

Also, I feel like I provided you with a solid answer, so I'm not sure how the onus is on me at this point. I'm not the one on YouTube telling millions of people things about game engines, rendering, and game development, without really having the background to do so credibly; I'm just a guy on NeoGAF telling you that the people behind Digital Foundry don't always have the chops to be considered experts in some of the areas they discuss on their channel.

and btw. not knowing if a game uses UE4 or UE5 isn't a good example.

Pretty sure I used the word "miniscule" to describe this issue, so I'm not sure why you're harping on this? But I'll play ball: shouldn't an expert from DF know what game engine is being used for a title?

UE5 is basically the same as UE4 if you don't use the new features...

Going to have to partially disagree here..at least from a user's standpoint. The UI, the modelling tools...it's all new to me. I guess maybe you're referring to Lumen and Nanite, though?

Great post. Nothing to add there but people can easily fail to differenciate technical knowlege with technical expertise. To have real knowlege from game dev there is the GDC and more dedicated forums like beyond3d. We use DF because they have been good enough and work extensively and regularly on their video since years. Nobody is perfect and I hope that they will continue to try and do the best videos they can. It helps more than it harms in my opinion. Thanks for the insider info.

Thanks. I've actually enjoyed some of the DF stuff...specifically, DF Retro. That's where John is truly in his element. I also appreciated the interview he did with BluePoint about Demon Soul's. That's top notch stuff.

I'm also not blind to the fact that over the years some of these guys have increased their knowledge, largely based on the research and interviews they've done. I'm just saying that if you're going to speculate about "the developer should have done this or that," you need to be able to back that up with some real world experience in the trenches.

 

[01011001]

Well, I'd actually appreciate it if you answered my industry experience question first? Have they added someone to their staff that has true game development chops? If they did, that's fantastic...and I'd be more than happy to cut them some slack if that indeed happened.

This doesn't count, either:

why does that not count?
I bet he knows more about some game engines than many indy devs that publish games using nothing but UE blueprints and store-bought assets.

Also, I feel like I provided you with a solid answer, so I'm not sure how the onus is on me at this point. I'm not the one on YouTube telling millions of people things about game engines, rendering, and game development, without really having the background to do so credibly; I'm just a guy on NeoGAF telling you that the people behind Digital Foundry don't always have the chops to be considered experts in some of the areas they discuss on their channel.

all they do is make informed guesses sometimes.
and if what they do is so bad then you surely must have examples.

Pretty sure I used the word "miniscule" to describe this issue, so I'm not sure why you're harping on this? But I'll play ball: shouldn't an expert from DF know what game engine is being used for a title?

Going to have to partially disagree here..at least from a user's standpoint. The UI, the modelling tools...it's all new to me. I guess maybe you're referring to Lumen and Nanite, though?

I'm not talking about the workflow or UI of the editor, I'm talking about the influence on the end product the different engine versions have.

Redfall could literally switch to UE5 last minute and you wouldn't be able to tell.
UE5 is in the end just a name that Epic arbitrarily chose to use for a specific version update where they felt the new number was appropriate.

 

[Chiggs]

why does that not count?

Because it's not specifically-related to game development. He could be referring to accounting software, industrial machinery control software, oil pipeline flow regulation software, etc.

If it was for game development, why wouldn't he just come out and say it? That would silence everyone.

And just so you know that I'm not running some unfair internal benchmark against the DF crew, consider this:

• Modern Vintage Gamer: I generally find him to be credible because of his mod-scene background and formal game development experience.
• Corridor Crew: While these guys don't have formal VFX experience, they prove their knowledge by producing first-rate renderings and animation using all the industry tools. And they show how they do it, adding even more to their credibility.

As far as I can tell, Richard Leadbetter is the only person from Digital Foundry with a background in the games industry...but he was a journalist; not a developer.

If I'm wrong, I'd be more than happy to take the Loss here.

 

[StereoVsn]

I am probably one of the biggest advocates for Prey on GAF.

I will welcome a surprise Prey 2 with open arms even at 20 FPS*

clearly hyperbole, please don't @ me

Dammit, you beat me to the 30fps joke, lol.

 

[ZoukGalaxy]

They just don’t have games that resonate at the moment.

"The Moment"

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I just found out that Redfall doesn’t have co-op progression…seriously? What’s the point of such a co-op focused game? That’s an enormous omission

Guess I’ll be solo’ing a “co op” based game then, which is generally boring AF when the whole game is designed around co op

Wait...what? So you are forced to clear through it in single player before you are allowed to play it co-op with friends? This doesn't make sense. Progression is supposed to be co-op going back to the days of Gears of War...

 

[Ozzie666]

Wait...what? So you are forced to clear through it in single player before you are allowed to play it co-op with friends? This doesn't make sense. Progression is supposed to be co-op going back to the days of Gears of War...

Supposedly only the host of the game makes progress. It's another point people can bitch about, I guess.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

this is Akrane Austin's their first game since Prey.

Arkane Lyon, the devs of Dishonored 2 and Deathloop, are not the same devs as Arkane Austin, who made Dishonored 1 and Prey.

Dishonored 2 and Deathloop were the only games so far that Arkane Lyon developed as a fully autonomous studio. before that they were basically the co devs of the main Austin studio.

That sound suspiciously similar to reasons to why Diablo 2 and Diablo 3 were so different. Made by a different team that just happened to share a studio name.

 

[adamsapple]

Wait...what? So you are forced to clear through it in single player before you are allowed to play it co-op with friends? This doesn't make sense. Progression is supposed to be co-op going back to the days of Gears of War...

No, lol.

If you are playing with 4 players, only the hosts 'story' will progress in their game. When you return to your own main campaign, your story will not have progressed with the host.

But you will be able to retain and take all the XP and loot back to your main game whereever your story left off.

This is fairly standard and games like Far Cry also do the same. However, I think in Gears 5, you are able to retain check points and the chapter selects of how far you progress even if you're not the host.

 

[ahtlas7]

True ARKANE fans don't bother getting the name right. Shine on!

I wish I was a true fan but I’m not! (edit) nor did I ever claim to be BUT they did make games that attempted appeal to me.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

Wait...what? So you are forced to clear through it in single player before you are allowed to play it co-op with friends? This doesn't make sense. Progression is supposed to be co-op going back to the days of Gears of War...

I think it's just story progression that is not shared. So when joining another game your character progresses (gears, stats etc...), but not story/world elements. It's kind of like how State of Decay 2 works. I'm not a fan of it either.