Support NeoGAF

[saintjules]

It's both I guess.
Consoles will always have limited power. In a market with $1500 GPUs and $600 CPUs it's unlikely you'll ever get $500 consoles that can handle everything you can imagine with no compromises.
But at the same it's up to devs to decide how to use the power that is available and what aspect of the game is more important to them.

For me personally, the thing is that with stagnant game design and diminishing returns in terms of visuals, I've yet to play a 30fps game this gen that feels like it gained anything valuable by giving up performance.
As I mentioned in a post above, IMO FFXVI looks quite average most of the time and the design of the world is very boring and dated. Whatever it gained by focusing on making it a 30fps experience was absolutely not worth it . Jedi Survivor is a similar example, they decided Ray Tracing was more important than performance which definitely wasn't worth it (at least in the performance mode), specially now that we have seen how similar it looks with no RT while running significantly better.

Thanks for that response. From the sounds of it, there's no moving of the needle by keeping the games just at 30fps, let alone no improvements from how the games are made visually to warrant keeping it there.

The question is, is it too much work to implement performance mode? Probably right? Surely developers know by now that 60fps has slowly become a request by gamers. And for some players, it's either 60fps minimum or no sale.

All in all, good that a sequel exists, but I'm a little surprised that the perf option isn't there at this point in some games, specifically ones like this. At least at launch.

 

[Bojji]

Imo, the minimum fps for games on modern consoles should be 40fps. From my experience on PC, it still perfectly playable and responsive with First Person and Third person games. 30 frames just feel like a slideshow, can't believe this has been the customary since PS3/360 era.

There wasn't any ability to display 40FPS correctly before, so it was 30 or 60 and you have to make game render 100% faster for 60 fps so it wasn't easily achievable. Now with 120Hz tvs developers have no excuse, 40 fps is not that much harder to render than 30 so some resolution drop will do the trick most of the time (unless game is killing CPU).

 

[MatrixReloaded101]

If you care about FPS just get a PC, you could get a PC for an affordable price that is more powerful than a PS5/Xbox Series X.

I don’t understand why people expect top performance from devices (consoles) that are basically a budget option.

Even with a PC I still play on my PS5 sometimes just because it’s convenient and nothing more.

 

[darkangel-212559]

Targetting 30fps...on a PC? You bring the whole master race down, you might even get excommunicated.

Worth it to play next gen on aged pc specs at sub 25fps. Surely min maxing is what PCMR lives for?!

 

[GymWolf]

Who is the biggest dogma 1 fanboy in here? i have some questions about my current run.

 

[GymWolf]

Ill have to give Darksiders 2 a look. I know nothing about it. Thanks.

It's a good game at the end of the day if you like zelda dungeons with puzzles, running with an horse in small open world with not much to do and dmc light type of combat.

The first one was a better game overall but ds2 has its fans.

 

[Mister Wolf]

Worth it to play next gen on aged pc specs at sub 25fps. Surely min maxing is what PCMR lives for?!

At the last worldwide PC Owner Conference we all voted and decided that our minimum standard would be 1440p 60fps.

 

[Astral Dog]

I will never buy a 30fps only game again on a console. It’s 2024 if your engine can’t support 60fps your engines shit and your artistic style is shit. Unless it’s a point and click or turn based game I never want to see another 30fps game. Sure as hell won’t pay 69.99 for that either.

But what if,once all the cross gen games are done they want to release a title that uses all capabilities of the current systems? Capcom is a good developer,they released many 60fps(at least close)games last gen consoles,maybe there is something they are trying to do with Dragon's Dogma that couldn't be possible last gen.

If framerate was the top priority each generation, we wouldn't have all those games that push visuals and detail to the limit

Though i find difficult to believe DD2 doesn't include at least one of those weird "40fps" modes

 

[Kings Field]

I recently played through the first DD again it but this time on Steam deck running at 60fps. It was a noticeable improvement but 30fps on console wasn’t horrible. I would prefer 60fps but this being 30fps on console is not a deal breaker.

 

[playsaves3]

of course, it was a big jump over how pathetic jaguar cores were

but in hindsight, zen 2 was pathetic too. people actually laughed at the idea of pairing anything above 3060 with a zen 2 cpu. yet you will find console folks here that will rage when anyone pairs anything above a 3080 with a zen 3 or zen 4 cpu and claim the tests with those gpus should be done on pathetic 2017-worthy performance CPUs lol

zen 2 is an architecture that literally traded blows with intel architectures from 2017. you could find cases (rarely though) where a 4/8 7700k outperforming a ryzen 3600 and not to mention that ryzen 3600 runs at 4+ ghz and has 32 mb l3 cache. console is much worse, at 3.6 ghz and with 8 mb cache and of course more limited bandwidth, the bandwidth that zen architecture is so reliant on.

zen 2 still traded belows with the likes of 8700k consistently. it is just how it is. the reason zen 3 was a big upgrade over zen 2 was primarily because zen 2 was so bad that anything worthwhile over it would be a massive improvement no matter what.

I just don’t know why the consoles didn’t use zen 3 I don’t think we would have ever had cpu limitations with this class of gpu if they did so why didn’t they do it?

 

[playsaves3]

of course, it was a big jump over how pathetic jaguar cores were

but in hindsight, zen 2 was pathetic too. people actually laughed at the idea of pairing anything above 3060 with a zen 2 cpu. yet you will find console folks here that will rage when anyone pairs anything above a 3080 with a zen 3 or zen 4 cpu and claim the tests with those gpus should be done on pathetic 2017-worthy performance CPUs lol

zen 2 is an architecture that literally traded blows with intel architectures from 2017. you could find cases (rarely though) where a 4/8 7700k outperforming a ryzen 3600 and not to mention that ryzen 3600 runs at 4+ ghz and has 32 mb l3 cache. console is much worse, at 3.6 ghz and with 8 mb cache and of course more limited bandwidth, the bandwidth that zen architecture is so reliant on.

zen 2 still traded belows with the likes of 8700k consistently. it is just how it is. the reason zen 3 was a big upgrade over zen 2 was primarily because zen 2 was so bad that anything worthwhile over it would be a massive improvement no matter what.

the pro would easily be worth 700 if the only thing they did was upgrade the cpu

 

[Griffon]

I would've said get it on PC, but now capcom is packing their PC games with the Enigma malware drm.

Easy skip. Plenty of better games coming out now.

 

[Fbh]

But what if,once all the cross gen games are done they want to release a title that uses all capabilities of the current systems? Capcom is a good developer,they released many 60fps(at least close)games last gen consoles,maybe there is something they are trying to do with Dragon's Dogma that couldn't be possible last gen.

If framerate was the top priority each generation, we wouldn't have all those games that push visuals and detail to the limit

Though i find difficult to believe DD2 doesn't include at least one of those weird "40fps" modes

I think that is a valid argument.
That said, IMO any game that sticks with 30fps has a lot to prove because it will only feel justified if it actually feels like a next gen experience. So far all these current gen only games with no (or a crappy) 60fps modes have felt like little more than Ps4 games with nicer graphics.

If you are telling me the physics in your game just weren't doable on the Ps5 CPU at 60fps you better be putting Tears of the Kingdom to shame.

 

[Shodai]

120 fps target these days on PC for many.

30 fps is just laughable in 2024, and is a non-starter for me.

 

[Astral Dog]

I just don’t know why the consoles didn’t use zen 3 I don’t think we would have ever had cpu limitations with this class of gpu if they did so why didn’t they do it?

I guess,budget. Series S was sold at $300 on launch day ,the new consoles simply are product of balancing price and power

I don't think its a big deal though, people survived the jaguar and they will survive this

 

[rodrigolfp]

I don’t understand why people expect top performance from devices (consoles) that are basically a budget option.

Because 60fps are not top performance and are 100% a dev choice.

But what if,once all the cross gen games are done they want to release a title that uses all capabilities of the current systems?

They can use all the capabilities of the system at 60, 120, 240fps, etc, etc...

 

[Dorfdad]

If you care about FPS just get a PC, you could get a PC for an affordable price that is more powerful than a PS5/Xbox Series X.

I don’t understand why people expect top performance from devices (consoles) that are basically a budget option.

Even with a PC I still play on my PS5 sometimes just because it’s convenient and nothing more.

Such A bad response. Just get a PC.. Why should people have to do that PC's are not always easy to maintain and get things working properly these consoles are not bottom dwelling units. They are technically capable of offering 4k/120 in games without much issue. The problem is the developers not wanting to offer it to users. This is what Sony and Microsoft should be enforcing that the us sport all the resolutions and features of their consoles. I didn't buy a 500 console to be forced to 30FPS when it can easily support 4/60 this is what pc's do High / Medium / Low settings just give us these if your to lazy.

That said this was on my radar and I will not buy it at launch unless it has 60 and I will wait for a deep or used sale before getting it at 30 FPS just to check it out down the line.

 

[playsaves3]

I think that is a valid argument.
That said, IMO any game that sticks with 30fps has a lot to prove because it will only feel justified if it actually feels like a next gen experience. So far all these current gen only games with no (or a crappy) 60fps modes have felt like little more than Ps4 games with nicer graphics.

If you are telling me the physics in your game just weren't doable on the Ps5 CPU at 60fps you better be putting Tears of the Kingdom to shame.

Now this is true

 

[playsaves3]

I guess,budget. Series S was sold at $300 on launch day ,the new consoles simply are product of balancing price and power

I don't think its a big deal though, people survived the jaguar and they will survive this

I don’t think zen 3 is that much more expensive than zen 2 I also heard it would save die space

 

[yamaci17]

I just don’t know why the consoles didn’t use zen 3 I don’t think we would have ever had cpu limitations with this class of gpu if they did so why didn’t they do it?

ps5 already had insane value. at that price point zen 3 would be difficult to put in there. besides console research and development is planned years ahead. zen 3 launched on desktop in november 2020, around the time the consoles were released.

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

.

 

[MatrixReloaded101]

Because 60fps are not top performance and are 100% a dev choice.

Such A bad response. Just get a PC.. Why should people have to do that PC's are not always easy to maintain and get things working properly these consoles are not bottom dwelling units. They are technically capable of offering 4k/120 in games without much issue. The problem is the developers not wanting to offer it to users. This is what Sony and Microsoft should be enforcing that the us sport all the resolutions and features of their consoles. I didn't buy a 500 console to be forced to 30FPS when it can easily support 4/60 this is what pc's do High / Medium / Low settings just give us these if your to lazy.

That said this was on my radar and I will not buy it at launch unless it has 60 and I will wait for a deep or used sale before getting it at 30 FPS just to check it out down the line.

 

[Zathalus]

All you guys are quick to give up disc ownership and playing the game on a console just for 30fps.
This is really unhealthy outlook.

PC can do disc ownership and more then 30fps at the same time.

 

[playsaves3]

ps5 already had insane value. at that price point zen 3 would be difficult to put in there. besides console research and development is planned years ahead. zen 3 launched on desktop in november 2020, around the time the consoles were released.

Rdna 2 also released at a similar time though and they squeezed it in. Especially if it’s true they refuse to change the cpu in the pro (though I don’t buy it) it’s even more reason to make sure you get the absolute best cpu

 

[Traxtech]

Just use low input lag frame interpolation. Been playing dragons dogma 1 with it and I'm very ocd about input lag and hate oled judder when panning on a 30 fps game. Just platinumed number 1 and so keen for 2

 

[Bernardougf]

I think that is a valid argument.
That said, IMO any game that sticks with 30fps has a lot to prove because it will only feel justified if it actually feels like a next gen experience. So far all these current gen only games with no (or a crappy) 60fps modes have felt like little more than Ps4 games with nicer graphics.

If you are telling me the physics in your game just weren't doable on the Ps5 CPU at 60fps you better be putting Tears of the Kingdom to shame.

Yeah I agree.. I still didnt see one game (untill now) that I would choose the Fidelity mode and say "wow now I have to play this way... fuck fps" all games since ps4 pro I've played in perfomance... more recently Hogwards Legacy ...

IMHO games (at the moment) reached a general graphics peak, and 4k / RT and other visual effects are icing on a cake that is already pretty good and all this effects account for maybe 5-10% of the overall experience but can consume too much resources from this cheap consoles.

And if I can play hogwards, spider man 2 , ratchet and clank, etc.... all with great graphics and 60 fps there is just no justification to push a 30 fps only game so I can see some pretty lights or nice reflections or have 36 sandwiches stacked when I leave a room and comeback later.

In the end is lazy development or cutting costs ... so either way is a no go for me personally

 

[darkangel-212559]

At the last worldwide PC Owner Conference we all voted and decided that our minimum standard would be 1440p 60fps.

Well I DEFY YOU ALL.

RISE UP FOR THIS IS WAAAARRR.

But yeah 1440p/60 is very nice. But let's be honest, 40fps gives all the benefits of 60fps while being able to up the graphics settings.

Also at the end of the day, to be able to play next gen on a PC handheld even at sub 30 is really amazing. But we really do need a Steam Deck 2 already.

 

[Shodai]

But yeah 1440p/60 is very nice. But let's be honest, 40fps gives all the benefits of 60fps while being able to up the graphics settings.

Just because you say 'lets be honest' does not mean a single word you uttered was even remotely true.

 

[Big Baller]

40fps still looks and feels slow

 

[Bernardougf]

40fps still looks and feels slow

Yep.. is marginally improved 30fps and nothing more.... is not some magical revolutionary miracle. If you dont like 30 fps 40 fps does nothing for you.

 

[darkangel-212559]

Yep.. is marginally improved 30fps and nothing more.... is not some magical revolutionary miracle. If you dont like 30 fps 40 fps does nothing for you.

40fps changed my life. It feels COMPLETELY different to 30fps. I can barely tell any difference to 60fps.

PCMR has always been obsessed with stupid L33Tz attitude to FPS, to the point that it literally blinds people to the cold, hard facts.

 

[darkangel-212559]

Why spend thousands for a rig that can output L33TZ specs when in just a few short years you'll be behind again. Just spend less money, and play those games with lower/mid specs for far far longer. The PCMR next generation race is never winnable.

 

[Bojji]

Yep.. is marginally improved 30fps and nothing more.... is not some magical revolutionary miracle. If you dont like 30 fps 40 fps does nothing for you.

It's quite massive difference, especially on OLED. Camera motion is no longer slideshow and game is much more responsive. Spider man remaster is brilliant in this mode on ps5, great IQ and acceptable performance.

 

[yamaci17]

It's quite massive difference, especially on OLED. Camera motion is no longer slideshow and game is much more responsive. Spider man remaster is brilliant in this mode on ps5, great IQ and acceptable performance.

it has to be psychological at this point

im on PC and i can play fps games at 40 fps. tps games at 40 fps is just perfect. i purposefully increase graphical settings to hit around 36-40 fps avg. because there really is no point for me to go between 40 and 60. both are responsive and snappy enough.

 

[Bernardougf]

It's quite massive difference, especially on OLED. Camera motion is no longer slideshow and game is much more responsive. Spider man remaster is brilliant in this mode on ps5, great IQ and acceptable performance.

It has a difference of course but is not in anyway massive nor is even close to be as good and fluid as 60 fps, is definitely good for the gamers that put graphics over fluidity but is not the definitive alternative for 60 fps that some try to pass it to be. And thats fine because is one more option.

I play on an Oled display and have tried all the "good" 40 fps implementation on Sony titles and for me is as shitty as 30 fps even if marginally better. But that is just my eyes, everyone must judge by themselves.

 

[Bernardougf]

it has to be psychological at this point

im on PC and i can play fps games at 40 fps. tps games at 40 fps is just perfect. i purposefully increase graphical settings to hit around 36-40 fps avg. because there really is no point for me to go between 40 and 60. both are responsive and snappy enough.

Yes I agree is psychological.. people that can't have hardware for 60fps gaming and/or are graphics whores convince thenselfs that 40 or even 30 fps is great and playing at 60 fps is not better or even needed. When any sane person with 20/20 eye sight can see the obvious enormous difference between 30/40 fps and 60 and above.

 

[Doctor Hades]

40fps changed my life. It feels COMPLETELY different to 30fps. I can barely tell any difference to 60fps.

PCMR has always been obsessed with stupid L33Tz attitude to FPS, to the point that it literally blinds people to the cold, hard facts.

I agree with you that 40 fps is much better than 30 fps, particularly if you use an OLED TV, where the near-instant pixel response of the panel can make 30 fps games look a bit of an eye-sore (LCD TVs have a slower pixel response so games running at 30 fps look better on those because the way the frames are delivered gives them a blurring effect).

40 fps is the sweet spot for me personally, looking better in motion as well as feeling more responsive. 60 fps is better obviously but I doubt Capcom will even release a 40 fps game on console; it is more likely the Dragon's Dogma 2 will have a locked 30 fps mode, the intended way to play it on PS5 and Xbox Series X|S, and an unlocked 'up to 60 fps' mode maybe, which would be useful for people with VRR capable displays.

 

[rodrigolfp]

both are responsive and snappy enough.

What is your mouse?

 

[Bernardougf]

40fps changed my life. It feels COMPLETELY different to 30fps. I can barely tell any difference to 60fps.

PCMR has always been obsessed with stupid L33Tz attitude to FPS, to the point that it literally blinds people to the cold, hard facts.

The only hard fact here is that any person that says that they cant see difference between 40 and 60 fps is A lying or B have bad eyesight/perception ...

And since you described the difference between 30fps tp 40 fps life changing I'll assume your eyesight is very good and extra sensitive, therefore you are lying and there is no point trying to convince me otherwise.

 

[Bojji]

The only hard fact here is that any person that says that they cant see difference between 40 and 60 fps is A lying or B have bad eyesight/perception ...

There is a difference, I can easily see difference between 30, 40, 60, 90 but not so much between 90 and 120. I would prefer 60fps always but if there is no such mode (like in plague tale at launch) then I will take 40 and will be happy with it. Same way if 60fps mode looks like a blurry mess, I played Hogwarts legacy on series x in 40fps because of this.

OPTIONS are amazing, there should be 30, 40, 60 fps and 60 fps + modes in every game, but devs don't really care that much and 40fps mode is super rare outside of sony games. They really should get credit here, after VRR patch every Sony game has a lot of display modes for everyone.

 

[Bernardougf]

There is a difference, I can easily see difference between 30, 40, 60, 90 but not so much between 90 and 120. I would prefer 60fps always but if there is no such mode (like in plague tale at launch) then I will take 40 and will be happy with it. Same way if 60fps mode looks like a blurry mess, I played Hogwarts legacy on series x in 40fps because of this.

OPTIONS are amazing, there should be 30, 40, 60 fps and 60 fps + modes in every game, but devs don't really care that much and 40fps mode is super rare outside of sony games. They really should get credit here, after VRR patch every Sony game has a lot of display modes for everyone.

Agree 100% with you.

 

[darkangel-212559]

The only hard fact here is that any person that says that they cant see difference between 40 and 60 fps is A lying or B have bad eyesight/perception ...

And since you described the difference between 30fps tp 40 fps life changing I'll assume your eyesight is very good and extra sensitive, therefore you are lying and there is no point trying to convince me otherwise.

Where did the 40fps doll touch you? It's a safe space.

Nope I'm not lying. 40 is a massive game changer for myself and others who don't have the specs to hit 60 with decent graphics settings. But 40 and decent graphics settings using a lower specced rig or Steam Deck etc is absolutely life changing. No more 30 is a big big deal.

 

[Big Baller]

Have love for Dreamcast and praise 40hz

 

[Fbh]

There is a difference, I can easily see difference between 30, 40, 60, 90 but not so much between 90 and 120. I would prefer 60fps always but if there is no such mode (like in plague tale at launch) then I will take 40 and will be happy with it. Same way if 60fps mode looks like a blurry mess, I played Hogwarts legacy on series x in 40fps because of this.

OPTIONS are amazing, there should be 30, 40, 60 fps and 60 fps + modes in every game, but devs don't really care that much and 40fps mode is super rare outside of sony games. They really should get credit here, after VRR patch every Sony game has a lot of display modes for everyone.

Honestly at this point with mid gen refreshes and backwards compatibility finally being common again on all systems, all games should have an optional uncapped (or at least 60 target) mode just for future proofing. Had a game like Bloodborne just had an unlocked mode like DS3 and Sekiro we wouldn't desperately need a remaster/re-release

 

[Bernardougf]

Where did the 40fps doll touch you? It's a safe space.

Nope I'm not lying. 40 is a massive game changer for myself and others who don't have the specs to hit 60 with decent graphics settings. But 40 and decent graphics settings using a lower specced rig or Steam Deck etc is absolutely life changing. No more 30 is a big big deal.

Yes you lied when you said that you barely saw difference between 40 fps and 60 fps and at the same time 30 to 40 fps was omg life changing ... so this is bad faith argumentation and I dont engage in those ... you will have to try with the next sucker.

 

[mckmas8808]

Good….Bloodborne had frame pacing issues but that really didn’t stop me from enjoying the game.

EXACTLY!!!!

 

[Wolfpact1983]

40 fps is poor man’s 60fps. If you are annoyed by the decision of the developers, get a pc. It was obvious that the current gen consoles would have to compromise after 4 years.

 

[King Dazzar]

40 fps is poor man’s 60fps. If you are annoyed by the decision of the developers, get a pc. It was obvious that the current gen consoles would have to compromise after 4 years.

Nah, I'll just not buy the game. Loads of other titles that have better frame rate options. Besides, we have yet to see how it fares on PC too. Its already riddled with DRM, that much we do know.

 

[HerjansEagleFeeder]

GAFers attacked me for scoffing at playing PC in the living room on a TV. I recently build an HTPC to do exactly that, to see if there's any merit to the claims of PCGAF. This will be a nice test with 60fps and all.

 

[Bernardougf]

40 fps is poor man’s 60fps. If you are annoyed by the decision of the developers, get a pc. It was obvious that the current gen consoles would have to compromise after 4 years.

Theres tons of great 60+ fps games to play on consoles.. so it is just a matter of not playing this game until another console comes (maybe Pro ?) Or even ps6... Devs can choose to not include a 60fps mode for many reasons and we can choose not to play the game until they do or not play at all ... Starfield launched with only 30 fps because of "creative vision" and prooved to be only bullshit since the game is not doing anything otherworldly ... lazyness and/or cost cutting is the usual reasons right now with this machines to not include 60fps modes .... not one game clearly justified only 30fps... maybe DD 2 will