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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works

T

The Librarian

Banned
LegalEagleMike said:
I keep going back and forth between VII and V. Currently I have it V > VII > IV > VI since my mind cant handle accepting anything higher than Empire.
Click to expand...
VII > V

tumblr_m8ntdagZyX1rako0qo9_250.gif
 
C

Caleb187

Member
How many references to the prequel trilogy were there in ep VII?

The only one I noticed is when they were talking about Finn defecting and how they should have used clone troops instead.
 
F

FlashbladeGAF

Member
Cuburt said:
For instance, we see Force users be able to jump super high, but we don't see them fly around. Sure, the latter may be possible if they can levitate objects, I suppose, but the idea of Force pushing and pulling things seems more like an influence than absolute control like holding a blaster shot. Flying would probably be impractical due to the amount of concentration it would require. The Force was something that was shown to require a great deal of concentration to be able to do something like levitate an object, and yet we see Kylo Ren not seem to have to put any attention or energy into holding the blaster shot in place throughout the scene.
.
Click to expand...
Cuburt said:
But there is no visual cue that he is putting any attention to holding it in place other than it moving at the end of the scene. At the very least, it seemed their intention was to convey to me that he was so powerful that he didn't need to put much attention into holding it in place, but we see at the end of the film, he doesn't have that much control nor power, which makes the scene feel like they just wanted something cool for him to do than care about why it works the way it does.
Click to expand...

Cuburt said:
But like I was saying, that doesn't mean the ability to defy a set of physical properties such as physics (for example) in anyway they want.

It's not about having a stock set of super powers, since their upper limit is presumably something that will never be known, even from the most powerful Force users that have been shown in the universe, but if you are introducing new powers, at the very least, they seem to be something that would be reserved for Force users of incredible ability and/or training. Kylo Ren's characterization seems to contradict that, but I wasn't even trying to get into that whole debate. I just don't like how they tried to introduce new Force ideas, since it didn't feel like it fit to me; both in how the powers had previously been established as well as how they had been introduced with these new characters. It felt like some fan-fiction, not in a good way.
Click to expand...
The reason why it's different though is because we never saw a Force user train in the Dark side of the Force.

In the beginning, they wanted to show you a glimpse of what that looks like, as well as setup and explain the difference between Kylo when killing the Old man versus killing his father and his mindset and aftermath of both those actions.

The beginning is Kylo at his most confident and powerful.

Like I've said multiple times, Kylo killed someone that was close to him and his family (listen to the whole dialogue of their conversation on your next viewing), someone that knew Ben before he called himself Kylo Ren. Killing off someone who was "like family" allowed him to not only kill off a piece of his former self so he could fall deeper into the dark side, but it gave him the power that comes with that, which allowed him to stop the blast that Poe fired in retaliation. We assumed he was a Sith Lord at that point, but we later learn he is still transitioning from Light to Dark.

Throughout the movie, after failing to capture the droid and hearing his Father is now involved, he slowly starts losing confidence in his path and is afraid of the choice he will eventually have to make when he comes face to face with his father.

Fast forward to Han's death and the same scenario from the beginning is shown, with Kylo killing someone from his past, but this time it's his own father, Someone he loved dearly. He was hoping he would become even stronger, by rejecting his former self, but that wasn't the case. He wasn't able to fully let go of his past and become stronger sharper, faster like he had in the beginning. He became weighed down by the realization and possible guilt of that moment which allowed for Chewie's blaster to hit him.

That power boost showed us the seductive and easier to gain power of the Dark Side. Yoda tells Luke in ESB that the Dark Side's power is easier to gain versus trying to control the Force. We see how difficult it is for a semi trained Luke and other Jedi's in the saga to control objects while it's easier for Darth Vader to force push multiple objects at Luke in Bespin. Kylo not receiving the same power boost in the beginning confirms the obvious, that Han's death did effect him and that it wasn't simply them forcing Kylo to be (what some considered to be "deus ex machine weak") so that Ren could defeat him.

Obviously the wound helped, but it was more of a trial for Kylo's journey and was setup the moment he was introduced on screen, not something they added at the last minute without any thought put into it.
 
T

TheDinoman

Member
Caleb187 said:
How many references to the prequel trilogy were there in ep VII?

The only one I noticed is when they were talking about Finn defecting and how they should have used clone troops instead.
Click to expand...

Maz mentions the Sith* during the bar scene. Apparently Ewan McGregor had a speaking cameo in Rey's vision. The flags at Maz's place are the same as the ones from the Podrace.

So yeah, thankfully it's just tiny minor stuff you probably wouldn't even notice on your first viewing.

*Technically, the term Sith predated the prequels with the Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker book.
 
N

Next

Member
AlimNassor said:
It wasn't bad. Kylo Ren was amazing...i can't believe he's hated. He's not some generic evil guy, hes seriously conflicted acolyte trying to be a somebody. His arc is going to be amazing.
Click to expand...

He lost to a girl who had no training and literally picked up her light saber for the first time when they started fighting. He went to the dark side for power... wtf has he been doing?
 
C

Cuburt

Member
Shaanyboi said:
Uhhh...

The Emperor literally shoots lightning from his hands. They already are able to super jump, move at super speed (which they never use again past the opening of Episode I), are telekenetic, telepathic, can see the future.

Why is halting a bolt of energy a stretch?
Click to expand...

Because it's energy and I'd like to think that even the most powerful (non-broken) Force users would have to obey the laws of the universe. You can't just stop energy. Light sabers and blasters get a pass since they are supposed to be analogs for swords and guns, and that just wouldn't work if they were actual lasers. But maybe that's just me not wanting to think "why didn't every Sith/Jedi "Magneto" every blaster bolt in every Star Wars movie ever if they could just stop the shit with no effort?"

The stupidity of the Jedi in this gif suddenly skyrockets
tumblr_inline_mnsonnkAXh1qz4rgp.gif


I don't think the idea that I accept some outrageous things by real world standards must mean that logically I must accept something else outrageous. I'm sure if in a future movie they decide to show a lightsaber "shooting" it's blade like a blaster, I'd have a problem with that depiction as well and there would probably be people defending it like, "if you accepted that there were things like lightsabers in the first place, you can't complain."
 
A

Althane

Member
Next said:
He lost to a girl who had no training and literally picked up her light saber for the first time when they started fighting. He went to the dark side for power... wtf has he been doing?
Click to expand...

Getting shot and killing his father (throwing him into emotional turmoil).

Plus, the light side has always been more powerful when the Jedi have been calm and in tune with the Force.

Edit: I thought it was commonly accepted that blaster bolts are more like plasma bottles that burst upon hitting a target?
 
A

Angel_DvA

Member
LegalEagleMike said:
I keep going back and forth between VII and V. Currently I have it V > VII > IV > VI since my mind cant handle accepting anything higher than Empire.
Click to expand...

Nah, there is no way for VII to be better than the first trilogy, it's more like:

V > IV.. > VI > VII........> III..> II = I = crap.
 
M

MoonsaultSlayer

Member
So having read this thread before seeing the film, I kept a few things in mind during my viewing.

First of all, everyone who has found time to complain about The Leia/Rey hug...? Just stop. This is clearly an embrace over what Leia had "sensed" of Rey's victory more than it was an ignore Chewie to console Rey moment.

Han reacting to Chewie's gun as if he never saw it? More like as if he never USED it. Big difference.

Phasma is even more underused than I'd imagined! Guess they're setting up Finn's rival for the sequel(s).... Or setting up her eventual defection to join him in the Resistance.

Now as for things I'd like to discuss beyond what I've read, I wonder if there's significance to Snoke's scar(s). Either from something witnessed in the earlier films he wants vengeance for or something referenced in the EU or maybe it just hasn't been mentioned yet. Can't wait to find out.
 
TheStruggler

TheStruggler

Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
Next said:
He lost to a girl who had no training and literally picked up her light saber for the first time when they started fighting. He went to the dark side for power... wtf has he been doing?
Click to expand...

to be fair he was shot and bleeding
 
B

Bronx-Man

Banned
Official Rankings:
1. Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back (1980)
2. Star Wars (1977)
3. The Hidden Fortress (1958)
4. Guardians of the Galaxy (2014)
5. Star Wars: Return of the Jedi (1980)
6. Spaceballs (1987)
7. Star Wars: The Force Awakens (2015)
 
I

injurai

Banned
Angel_DvA said:
Nah, there is no way for VII to be better than the first trilogy, it's more like:

V > IV.. > VI > VII........> III..> II = I = crap.
Click to expand...

At first I ranked it above 6, but now I think I've settled on this being my final ranking.

I think it's fair to leave some room for 8 to outdo 6 thought, and ranking 7 too high this soon is premature. I need to see where it's themes go.
 
F

FlashbladeGAF

Member
Aureon said:
Third watch, time for foreshadowing hunting!

Han Solo Death:
- Chewie laughs off Han's claim that "He'll talk out of it, as he always does"
- Leia tells Han "When you trying to be helpful has actually helped? And don't stay the Death Star"
And then his helpful talk to Ben\Ren gets him killed.
Click to expand...

The freighter scene:
Gang Leader: Han Solo, you're a DEAD MAN!!

Village Raid:
Old Man: I knew you before you called your self Kylo Ren...You can't deny your family (Setups up him being the son of Han and Leia)

Kills family friend, falls deeper into the dark side, stops blaster, believes he can deny his family (Kills father, part of him can't deny his family and what he has done, doesn't fall deeper into the darkside, gets hit with Chewie's blaster)
 
S

Shaanyboi

Banned
Next said:
He lost to a girl who had no training and literally picked up her light saber for the first time when they started fighting. He went to the dark side for power... wtf has he been doing?
Click to expand...

He's winning that fight for the majority of it, and she's barely succeeding at keeping him away until she's cornered. Then when she finally consciously channels the Force, she's channeling it through her rage and takes him down with it. She's already been shown as being more powerful than he is, despite having no training that we know of - she repels his mental probing and overpowers his pull on the lightsaber.

Only reason the ground separates them is so that she can't go too far and kill him, and will go into her next fight now knowing just what she's capable of if she uses her anger.
 
U

Union Carbine

Member
Finally saw it this afternoon on IMAX 3D. It was better than I feared but not as good as I'd hoped. There weren't any big memorable moments for me. I like Kylo but I need more than "he's got too much Vader in me" for the setup. As far as his fight with Rey goes, he had taken a blaster shot to the gut/thigh so I cut him some slack there. I didn't dig the fight though. I kinda wish they'd resolved it differently and skipped the sloppy duels.
 
B

Bobby Roberts

Banned
Aureon said:
- Luke is basically Lucas. Did a great thing (OT \ Destroyed the empire), tried again, got blasted for the results (PT \ Training a new Jedi order), walked away from it all (Selling Star Wars \ Self-exile)
Click to expand...

I like this. You ever hear that story Hamill used to tell, where he wasn't getting a handle on Luke in 76, and couldn't get Lucas to communicate what it was he wanted, so for one take, as a goof, he did a kind of Lucas impersonation - and Lucas said "Perfect. That's exactly what I want."
 
P

PopeReal

Member
I refuse to rank VII until I have seen it more. Just because I have seen the other 6 so many damn times. I will say that I love VII and that won't change.
 
F

FlashbladeGAF

Member
Cuburt said:
Because it's energy and I'd like to think that even the most powerful (non-broken) Force users would have to obey the laws of the universe. You can't just stop energy. Light sabers and blasters get a pass since they are supposed to be analogs for swords and guns, and that just wouldn't work if they were actual lasers. But maybe that's just me not wanting to think "why didn't every Sith/Jedi "Magneto" every blaster bolt in every Star Wars movie ever if they could just stop the shit with no effort?"

The stupidity of the Jedi in this gif suddenly skyrockets
tumblr_inline_mnsonnkAXh1qz4rgp.gif


I don't think the idea that I accept some outrageous things by real world standards must mean that logically I must accept something else outrageous. I'm sure if in a future movie they decide to show a lightsaber "shooting" it's blade like a blaster, I'd have a problem with that depiction as well and there would probably be people defending it like, "if you accepted that there were things like lightsabers in the first place, you can't complain."
Click to expand...

Like Ive said before, the dark side of the force is supposed to be easier to learn, according to Yoda. We haven't seen many Sith, but the ones we have seen haven't really had to go up against blasters.
What has been shown is that Darth Vader has outclassed everyone except for Yoda when comparing uses of the Force.

Not only was he able to stop blaster fire, which no other force user had done
rMs9LE.gif


but he does things with relative ease compared to Jedi's
4319952-vader+tk+throws+objects+1.gif
4319953-vader+tk+throws+objects+2.gif

In mid fight.

Again because Yoda is a master, he is able to pull off awesome things like absorbing and redirecting lightning
3938836-9459830970-39376.gif
While Dooku can only reflect.

The 2 Forces are equal (or at the ver least the Dark Side isn't stronger than the Light), but it all depends on the user and their individual skills. Like some have stated, each person's use of the Force is slightly different. Luke using it for agility, before finally mastering what Yoda taught him by causing C3P0 to fly. Who knows what he can do after 30 years of being a hermit/monk.
 
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