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Switch 2 to hit 4 teraflops?!
- Thread starter ultrazilla
- Start date
the rumors have been for a while top end was ps4 pro. so maybe
Switch Next/2/NG/Whatever will use a custom SOC based of Orin. It's called T239 Drake.
It's existence was rumored ever since 2021 by known Nvidia leaker Kopite7kimi.
Leak: Switch 2 to use Orin T239 Nvidia Soc , PS4 and PS4 pro performance Without DLSS
this has been leaked long time ago, but it means it will have PS4 power in portable mode and PS4 pro docked this is without counting DLSS, and if nintendo uses enough Ram and UFS 3.1 or better storage it is going to be pretty close to current consoles CPU should have better performance than...www.neogaf.com
It's kinda crazy to think about that Switch 2 will rock an SoC designed in 2021 to be used from 2024 onwards for the next 5-7 years.
Can it be that good or maybe things aren't set in stone yet?
CS Lurker
Member
If it is using the Samsung 8nm node (the same one Ampere GPUs use) I don't see it reaching ~1.3GHz to get "near 4TF".
Now, if they used the same node from Ada Lovelace (TSMC 4N), then I could see it reaching 2TF handheld / 4TF docked, it would be just a matter of what battery life Nintendo wants to offer. I'm absolutely fine with 3h for the more demanding titles, but maybe Nintendo isn't.
Anyway, I wouldn't expect the clock difference between handheld and docked to be any higher than 2.5 times regardless of what node they chose years ago (BTW, T239's last tapeout was in the 2nd half of 2022; it was done at the same period of Lovelace)
You can make still rough comparisons between Ampere and RDNA 2 parts using TF figures, since the ratio between compute and fillrate, texture rate, memory bandwidth etc. generally doesn't change too much. When you do this you find that Ampere parts have about 70% of the performance of RDNA 2 parts at the same number of Teraflops. So a 4TF Switch 2 should be roughly equivalent to 2.8 TF RDNA 2 part or a 3.5 TF GCN part (PS4/PS4 Pro). So it would still be behind the PS4 Pro.
Kiya's Guard
Member
But how well will it play the gba subscription catalogue
Sethbacca
Member
Games made by Nintendo 1st parties will be amazing, but Gamefreak will somehow still manage to churn out subpar garbage.
Hudo
Member
This is the unfortunate truth.
Radical_3d
Member
My god the copium in this thread. It’s designed in 2021 as a cut back version of an older chip. Is not high end. It’s been 20 years, people. How long till you realise that Nintendo is not in the tech race? They don’t need your enthusiast tier ass.
I don't see it that black and white, the OG Switch SoC may not been high end but they designed it to push for as much performance as possible with the given small thermal envelope and reaching 3 hours gameplay at full throttle.
The Switch as a mobile device being as good or better than the WiiU is definitely a testament that Nintendo is pushing for high tech and performance again.
Radical_3d
Member
Only GAF is a crazy enough place to be able to read this sentence.
I agree but a 1536 ALU part at 1 GHz would still deliver decent performance for a handheld. Ampere is old but still pretty performant and had good power efficiency even on Samsung's crappy 8nm process.
Radical_3d
Member
Yes of course. And it’s probably going to be my first Nintendo console in 20 years but I’m managing my expectations with the facts in mind.
Kataploom
Gold Member
One thing people have to understand before thinking Nintendo "don't like specs parity just because" is that mobile tech is advancing a way faster pace these days than home computer tech, so it's a matter of time that mobile devices are not that far ahead of home consoles since the later are also experimenting a diminishing return.
Switch has already feature parity with PS4/Xbone, hell, even the CPU cores on the Switch would be better than those console's CPUs if the Switch CPU ran at original frequency (that's AFAIK). Maybe this time around that disparity in power differences will get even closer, since that tech is already cheap enough for Nintendo's purpose.
Switch has already feature parity with PS4/Xbone, hell, even the CPU cores on the Switch would be better than those console's CPUs if the Switch CPU ran at original frequency (that's AFAIK). Maybe this time around that disparity in power differences will get even closer, since that tech is already cheap enough for Nintendo's purpose.
Radical_3d
Member
Kataploom
Gold Member
What's wrong with that? I'm willing to learn if you can teach something I don't know (which can be plenty, btw).
CS Lurker
Member
Well, Lovelace isn't that different from Ampere, except for the node (the reason for at least 95% of the performance gain over the previous gen) and frame generation. Frame gen wouldn't make sense for a product like Switch 2. But the node, that would make all the difference of course, much bigger than what we saw between the TX1 in 20nm VS TX1+ in 16nm.
So, that's the part where Nintendo could end up being cheap. I won't pretend that I won't be disappointed if that's the case, as SEC 8nm really is a bad node. So bad that I can't believe they would get 4TF using it. That's the funny part, this MLID guy keep talking about performances that, if you understand the power consumption involved, you know it's not possible using the Ampere node. Nintendo isn't going to draw more than 30W even in docked mode, just like they won't have a huge gap between handheld and docked clocks. So, or we are gonna settle below 3TF in docked (which means SEC 8nm in the end) or they went with TSMC 4N, which makes this Ampere GPU basically a Lovelace GPU without the frame gen. As much as I want the latter to be true, I can totally see the former happening too.
tkscz
Member
I was going with the rumored 1250 CUDA cores. Also meant handheld not docked.
OG Switch was based on a 24nm and it's rework 16nm which was why the battery life increased. For the same amount of battery as the original, they could have increased the MHz rate but chose not to. When the die shrinks it requires less power to run at the same rates. 7nm Ampere requires much less power to run at 700mhz than 24nm Maxwell.
CS Lurker
Member
There's also the 460MHz profile (used by botw/totk/, mk8, odyssey, etc)
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It is the case on the Switch. The GPU runs at 768 MHz when docked and about half that when handheld.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
You are confidently incorrect. The Switch massively downclocks the GPU in handheld mode VS docked, the clock speed in handheld mode is less than half. In terms of TFLOPs it's something like 0.39 in docked mode and 0.16 in handheld.
This, of course, is to save battery power. No need for that when docked.
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cireza
Member
The console runs at higher speeds when docked. You get a resolution boost most of the time. Most games still run like shit though.
Kataploom
Gold Member
It's actually the opposite, Switch needs the battery to last and the temperature to stay at health values, so I'm handheld they reduced the GPU and RAM clocks, the CPU stays the same since, I assume, main logic could be badly affected if devs tie the logic to frequency of something like that, therefore you see basically any game having different performance in portable and docked modes, mostly further reducing resolution and graphic effects in portable since the GPU runs at a much weaker profile.
In portable mode switch GPU has 236 GFLOPs while I'm docked mode it has 393 GFLOPs with higher GPU and memory frequencies since it's not relying on battery power and active cooling can run without limitations, the dock isn't only for TV output, it also tells the console which performance profile to use.
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
I see. Thanks for the replies.
So, all you're getting is a downgrade in resolution when in handheld mode. It's not as if the Switch Lite is vastly less powerful than the OG switch for example.
Which would mean for the next Switch, it could do 4K in docked mode, but reduce this to 1080p in handheld mode to save battery.
Kataploom
Gold Member
It is the exact same hardware, it just only runs with the portable performance profile only
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
At this rate, I know Nintendo fans aren't exactly more informed in terms of the technical bits but don't invest yourself too much into the teraflops when the hardware has to have a good balance. It's the same thing that happened with this generation when the two consoles came out and people just assume just because there's more teraflops means it's better. If the handheld isn't balanced enough and has contingency to help alleviate some of it shortcomings then you will start to see that. In the meantime, a good bump is expected but I think also a good deal of proper expectations is needed.
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
Wow. And there was me thinking the Switch Lite and the OG Switch were identical. Clearly not.
Toots
Gold Member
I wonder if Nintendo will succeed in making anything as gorgeous as Ghost of Tsushima, if it's comparable in power to PS4. Picture from PS4-version.
Not that they want to but even if they wanted to they could not.
Dr. Wilkinson
Member
I’m surprised people don’t know this. It’s been nearly 8 years. People just thought Switch Lite was $100 cheaper because it couldn’t dock?
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IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
Yeah. It runs the same games. I've played Witcher 3 on a docked switch and the switch lite. I didn't really notice a quality difference and if I did I just put down to a smaller screen.
Polygonal_Sprite
Gold Member
This is exactly the intended experience. The lower resolution and reduced visuals in some games are covered by both the smaller screen and the fact that outside of enthusiast circles no one really cares. Look at the platform splits for EA Sports FC, Hogwarts and many, many other games. People value the choice of TV+portability over better visuals and a smoother experience.
The differences between PS/XB and Switch will be significantly reduced once Switch 2 is released.
There’s an avalanche of PS4 ports coming to it and I don’t just mean third party ports… The above person imagining GoT like visuals on a Nintendo device might not have to wait more than a couple of years to see not something like it but the genuine article on said device lol.
Some people are going to be big mad over it but meh the industry has changed so much in the past 10 years and that’s not stopping anytime soon. There are going to be PS games on Nintendo, Xbox games on PS, PS games on Xbox and Xbox games on Nintendo. More people get to play great games. It’s not a bad thing. Nintendo will be the bad ones though because they’re not sharing their software… yet.
*Edit -
Since I went off topic I’ll add that the power of NX2 has been consistently the same since I first heard about it from a source who works with horses in Scotland in 2022. It’s roughly a PS4 with double the ram and a more modern set of GPU features when in handheld mode. It’s a PS4 Pro in terms of it getting a massive increase in image quality when it’s docked using DLSS instead of checkerboard rendering.
So yeah in general terms around 2TERAFLOPs in handheld mode and 4TERAFLOPs when docked. It then has tensor cores for RT and a custom version of DLSS (it unfortunately doesn’t have frame generation at least from what I know).
Remember those TERAFLOPs are kind of irrelevant though considering you could in theory strip a very impressive PS5 game down to low PC settings and run it at 540p then DLSS’ed up to 1080p to make it feasible. Also look at Series X versus PS5 and how PS5 versions not only hold their own but rather outperform a console with ~20% more TERAFLOP’s.
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IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
I agree.
Microsoft and Sony aren't porting their games to other systems out of the goodness of their hearts. It's down to business only. If Microsoft had sold 80 million Xbox consoles by now, plus a majority of those on GP, there is no way they'd be porting their games to other systems.
Nintendo have sold well over 140 million Switch consoles. They have no need to port their games to other consoles and PC.
You heard from somebody who works with horses in Scotland? Horses?
That's all I want. A new Switch with more power. No need for Nintendo to reinvent the wheel. The Switch is a huge success. Just keep it the same with more juice and it'll sell.
Schmendrick
Member
I don`t know under which stone you`ve lived, but the flops have been a point of discussion since the gamecube era.....
Unknown?
Member
Portables should be measured in pixel density rather than overall resolution.
E-Cat
Member
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Paasei
Member
Oldest thread I can find is from 2019: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/amd-oberon-playstation-5-soc-die-delidded-and-pictured.1616431/
So unless threads get deleted automatically over time (wouldn't surprise me), this hasn't been discussed since the gamecube era on this forum.
Obviously, if this is the case so my point can be wrong/right. I don't mind either way.
My bad for not properly elaborating that I meant the forum. I'm wrong, you're right.
Dr. Wilkinson
Member
Yeah that’s the whole point. Is you can’t really see the differences in handheld mode because the resolution is lower and everything’s squeezed down to a small screen. Docked takes way more processing power. Nintendo did a great job at making the experience appear seamless and not noticeably different, for sure.
Lokaum D+
Member
Nop, if i m not mistaken switch has more power than a PS360 and yet thats what they can pull on open world games.I wonder if Nintendo will succeed in making anything as gorgeous as Ghost of Tsushima, if it's comparable in power to PS4. Picture from PS4-version.
tbf Monolith was the only one that really pushed graphics assets on switch with Xenoblade 3
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Apart from Retro, who makes exclusive realstic looking games on Switch that takes full advantage of their hardware?I wonder if Nintendo will succeed in making anything as gorgeous as Ghost of Tsushima, if it's comparable in power to PS4. Picture from PS4-version.
Maybe Shin'en? I guess we'll be seeing a new Fast Racing Neo 2. VD Devs maybe? But I think the programmer for that team died. And these were all indie. I suppose Ubisoft usually makes an exclusive Nintendo game every now and then and maybe Capcom, but they typically plan to port later and it's pretty rare when it's a 'realstic' game.
Closest to them will be Monolith Soft and Platinum Games, and I'm expecting their games at best to be semi-realistic.
Woopah
Member
From my understanding the System on a Chip in both Switch and Switch Lite is the same. It's just that the Switch Lite never runs in docked mode.
So there is no difference in the parts used, but there is in terms of highest possible output.
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
Game Freak?
Get ready for a mainline Pokémon game that'll look better than Ghost of Tsushima.
You heard it here first.
Dr. Wilkinson
Member
This is correct. But because it doesn't dock, it is not an identical machine in terms of components. Hence the lower cost. Not to mention the Joy-Con aren't standalone/ separate pieces.
Hudo
Member
Ngl, Ghost of Tsushima made me stop and look around for a bit.I wonder if Nintendo will succeed in making anything as gorgeous as Ghost of Tsushima, if it's comparable in power to PS4. Picture from PS4-version.
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