weemadarthur
Member
JeffZero has a thread about watching Babylon 5 XD
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The General Star Trek Thread of Earl Grey Tea, Baseball, and KHHHAAAANNNN
- Thread starter The Librarian
- Start date
Neelix is cringe worthy before Kes leaves. After that he's one of the better characters.
StopMakingSense
Member
The most damning thing about Voyager is how much the talent of the actors involved was wasted by how poor, bland, and just uninteresting the characters were.
Bonus Game: Name a worse Trek character than Neelix!
Bonus Game: Name a worse Trek character than Neelix!
Elvendork. It's unisex.
Harry Kim?
Himynameischris
Member
Hmm worse than Neelix...Trois mom comes to mind but just from the main crew...I can't think of anyone.
Stallion Dan
Member
Wesley. Jadzia. Nog. Guinan. Trip. Mayweather (I literally had to Google his name such is his worthlessness).
One and done. And that idiot marries a woman way out of his league and becomes the damn king. Ain't no fairness in life.
weemadarthur
Member
Tuvok is worse than Neelix. I mean, Neelix is quite bad, but, Tuvok is the worst.
StopMakingSense
Member
That's the thing about Tuvix, clearly he had to die because he was FAR too interesting of a character to keep on living on that ship.
also I had always thought that was Russ who played him, until I saw the real actor in another thing years later and it blew my mind.
weemadarthur
Member
I liked Tuvix.
In the moral quandary about which life form to keep, I vote for the one that everyone likes instead of the two that everyone hate. Better morale.
StopMakingSense
Member
Indeed.
But no, let's make Janeway a murderer.
But no, let's make Janeway a murderer.
Himynameischris
Member
They could have easily have gotten around the issue of not making her a murderer by discovering that Tuvix couldn't survive much longer or something.
Ugh the lazy writing in Voyager is annoying.
Edit: I actually forgot about Tuvox earlier....which says it all really.
Ugh the lazy writing in Voyager is annoying.
Edit: I actually forgot about Tuvox earlier....which says it all really.
StopMakingSense
Member
Thats the thing, they did! But after she already did it!
Himynameischris
Member
What would have been the point of offering her an easy escape route? The brilliant part of Tuvix is that there is no easy option out of the moral quandary. The technobabble creates and undoes the central problem, but it doesn't (and can't) solve it. That's good framing and tension.
StopMakingSense
Member
Oh indeed, my problem is with the 'oh he would have died anyways' even being in there.
Was a pointless defelction of the whole 'Janeway just murdered a sentient being begging to be kept alive' thing.
Himynameischris
Member
My problem with it is that they shouldn't have made Janeway the one to decide. Have Tuvix be the one to realize he's murdering two people by staying alive. You can still have Janeway give her opinion on what she thinks Tuvix should do but ultimately it should have fallen to Tuvix to decide.
But he didn't want to go. So ultimately Janeway decided. I think it was the "right" decision (2 people for one), even if it wasn't the "right" decision (because you still trampled a person's right to live in the process). But that's what makes it such a good ep, because people can argue the opposite and have plenty of merit as well.
It's just a shame we never got to see the echoes of that choice down the line. "Author, Author" would have been a great point to turn the Janeway caricature into the Doctor's quiet protest against what Janeway did, for example. What makes it worse is he specifically throws out a line like "as far as I know, you've never murdered any of my patients." But she did!
Except what Janeway does is established as wrong in Trek. If Data is not the property of Starfleet and has the right to choose not to be disassembled, then Tuvix had the same right. Regardless of his origin.
Janeway does not have the right to murder someone against their will. Sure, she can order someone to their death, but they can resign, etc. They have the choice because they are sentient beings and have rights.
This is a spot where if the writers had balls, they could have said that this isn't right, it isn't moral, it isn't "starfleet" and had Janeway do it anyway because of where Voyager was, so far from home and struggling for survival. It would be a huge character moment. But they chicken out and just make Janeway a cold blooded killer because Janeway misses her friend. And then forget about the whole damn thing by the next episode.
Himynameischris
Member
I agree that the theme makes it a good episode but the way they handled it with Janeway forcing the decision was bad. Tuvix could have wanted to stay, Janeway could have pushed him to die for Neelix and Tuvox and it would have been fine if Tuvix had decided the "right" decision was for Neelix and Tuvox to live even if he had to die and the episode would have been better for it. No need to bring up that he was going to die anyways.
Instead they make Janeway force the issue, look terrible and then have it mean nothing by hand-waving it away at the end, they even had the perfect chance to bring it up like you said but like always the writers just ignored it afterwords.
I'm actually surprised that Seven, the Doctor and Tom and B'lannas relationship have developed at all considering how easily they drop any character development or story progressions.
This would have been a good plot thread to start a relationship for Neelix and Tuvox and they even hinted as such but it never went anywhere.
StopMakingSense
Member
Clearly we were robbed of a multi episode arc in which Janeway systematically gaslights Tuvix and he eventually accepts his split more as a form of suicide.
Himynameischris
Member
Should have just gone all out with "Psycho" Janeway, leaving a trail of destruction through the Delta Quadrant.
Himynameischris
Member
I was going to suggest Q2 as a worse character but he got better as the episode went on.
Also Q was looking kinda rough there....parenthood doesn't agree with him apparently
Also Q was looking kinda rough there....parenthood doesn't agree with him apparently
weemadarthur
Member
I really liked the propaganda version of Janeway in Living Witness XD
He said 'character'.
funkystudent
Member
Extras dont count
Undercut, depending on how you look at it, by the meddling they take in corporeal matters later on.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
I was recently reading a halfway decent attempt at trying to rectify the whole Prophets thing, and they made the fair point that if time is nonlinear than everything with Bajor and the Orbs could have essentially been "post-contact". But it still couldn't explain the predestination paradox with them making sure The Sisko would be The Sisko, and it still doesn't explain the dumb Pah-Wraiths and the dumb book.
It's how a fair number of Trek fans actually view her. It's so great.
And then they do it again in Author, Author!
Himynameischris
Member
Yup, completely ruined the first encounter and the entire idea of the "prophets"
When I first saw Living Witness I thought that's when Janeway was turning the corner to the evil captain I always hear about lol I just watched Author, Author yesterday and it reminding me of the same thing but I really don't think she's as bad as people claim...although I still have a few episodes to go before I get to the ending.
I mostly just think of Evil Janeway as a fun thing Chuck from SFDebris does for comedy in his Voyager reviews.
Incidentally, he's a really great reviewer (as an example, I liked that time when he explained the difference in "honor" between Worf and the rest of the Klingons), and his reviews are highly recommended.
He goes hard in the paint on Voyager especially. Makes sense as those are the reviews he pretty much did first. But his opinions on Neelix/Janeway et al are pretty popular ones from before the time Youtube showed up. I think he's a bit too hard on a lot of them considering his show is mostly going for a serious critical tone.
Himynameischris
Member
Yeah I've seen some of his stuff before, it's pretty good
I'm four episodes away from watching that, very curious to see what she does.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
lol the Voyager finale is terrible for Janeway's character and runs against all the rules of Trek established by their stupid time cop stories.
Himynameischris
Member
lol finally got rid of neelix with only two episodes to go
So did they know this was the final season?
So did they know this was the final season?
They should have had Neelix get shoved out an airlock for his last episode.
Himynameischris
Member
what's funny is that even though they tried to go for an emotional goodbye with everyone standing around, I felt nothing at all and they didn't even give him any final goodbyes with the crew, just Tuvox doing the stupid dance thing.
If they had Tuvok shoot Neelix in the head it would have been the best possible ending for Voyager.
Himynameischris
Member
I thought they were about to kill off the doctor, sevens reaction to his love confession was hilarious lol
Well I finally made it to the Endgame I'll watch it tomorrow
lol that would have brought back a lot of good will towards the show
Well I finally made it to the Endgame I'll watch it tomorrow
lol that would have brought back a lot of good will towards the show
I still don't get how the Talaxians got that far into the Delta quadrant. Voyager is basically right at the edge of the Beta Quadrant when the final episode takes place and the war that would have forced this convoy out here happened when Neelix was a young man, and Talax is basically all the way at the edge of the Delta quadrant. 25 years at warp 9+.