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The Literary Works of J.R.R. Tolkien Megathread |OT| Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo

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Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Jacob said:
How does one come up with a definition of "children's literature" that includes both Tolkien and Eric Carle (who are quite different) while excluding the early Harry Potter books?
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Without knowing the specifics of the poll, one can only deduce that nostalgia played a significant role in this poll. Older generations of adults here just don't have the same reverence for the Harry Potter books.
 
L

Loxley

Member
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Don't worry Stellaluna, you'll always be #1 in my mind.
 
J

Jacob

Member
teiresias said:
By defining it as good children's literature?
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What's Narnia doing on that list, then?

Edmond Dantès;114577912 said:
Without knowing the specifics of the poll, one can only deduce that nostalgia played a significant role in this poll. Older generations of adults here just don't have the same reverence for the Harry Potter books.
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I suppose so. It's hard to say more without knowing more about the poll, or what books placed outside the top 10 but still relatively high. I'd have a hard time believing HP didn't make the top 25, even in a poll only of adults. But I suppose adults might be less likely to consider HP a children's book since it becomes much more teen/adult oriented towards the end, and most adults today wouldn't have been young children when they read HP.

Loxley said:
Don't worry Stellaluna, you'll always be #1 in my mind.
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Man, that's a great choice. I loved Verdi and Crickwing too.
 
F

Finrod

Banned
Whoa, Edmond, when did you get the tag?
Only noticed it just now. Couldn't think of a more fitting tag for you.
 
T

TitusGroan

Banned
The Artful Dodger said:
Wind in the Willows would've been up there once upon a time. It's sad to think it's not read as widely as it once was.
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Wind In The Willows is probably for me the high point of English prose. As much as I love Tolkien's penchant for describing landscapes, I don't think anyone has matched Milne when it comes to evocatively detailing the beauty of the natural countryside, or the idyllic vision of pre-WWI Britain. The story's a little dated, but the way those words flow... I could read Milne writing about rivers and trees all day.
 
S

SatelliteOfLove

Member
Edmond Dantès;114701812 said:
This is an unexpected thing to find when logging in.

Thank you to the mysterious power who has given me this.
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"The whole 'dying after killing a Balrog' to get it was a bit much, but 'no pain no gain', I guess!"
 
A

Altazor

Member
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this one's so.. mystic. Telcontar Pantocrator!

Thanks for posting them, ED - they're lovely! Also, congrats on your very deserved (and fitting) tag! :D
 
M

Megalosaro

Banned
Something I've been wondering about is if the latin word "Numen" (which means divine) has anything to do with the name "Numenor"

I mean, within Tolkien's constructed languages I know Numenor has its own meaning (West Lands), but being a devout catholic and a linguist, no doubt Tolkien would be familiar with the word and could have influenced his choices when building his languages
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Megalosaro said:
Something I've been wondering about is if the latin word "Numen" (which means divine) has anything to do with the name "Numenor"

I mean, within Tolkien's constructed languages I know Numenor has its own meaning (West Lands), but being a devout catholic and a linguist, no doubt Tolkien would be familiar with the word and could have influenced his choices when building his languages
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As you say, Tolkien was very well versed in Latin, and it is a key element in two of Tolkien's earlier languages known as Naffarin and Nevbosh. A key part of Nevbosh was based on Latin vocabulary. Latin was also one of the linguistic bases on which Quenya was modelled on; 'Elven latin' as Tolkien described it.

In terms of the word Numen (Quenya), this is a name for number 17 of the Tengwar alphabet (see table below) which has the value of n. It was commonly used to indicate the compass direction west, even in languages where the word for west did not begin with n.

An earlier name for Numenor was Numendor which meant west-land.

As well as divine, numen in Latin can mean:


  • a nod
  • a command, will, authority
  • the divine will, power of the gods, divine sway, supreme authority
  • god-head, divinity, deity, divine majesty
  • a divinity, deity, god, goddess
Put all this evidence together and you're absolutely right. A divinely created Westerly Island, with great authority and will to advance. Tolkien certainly would have had all this in mind when developing Numenor.


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E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
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Grammatical and lore mistake aside this is fun. Long have I argued that Sauron was simple misunderstood by the peoples of Middle-earth.
 
J

jason10mm

Gold Member
Oddly enough, I find it refreshing that "pure evil" exists in Tolkien. After SOOOOO many "nuanced, conflicted, misunderstood, grey" antagonists in recent fiction it is nice to cuddle up and read about a plain old bad guy.
 
S

sohois

Member
Altazor said:
iu9DcLF.jpg


this one's so.. mystic. Telcontar Pantocrator!

Thanks for posting them, ED - they're lovely! Also, congrats on your very deserved (and fitting) tag! :D
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All of the images seem to have a distinctly...well I want to say Christian but I suppose a more accurate moniker would be 'stained-glass' appearance to them.

The image Fireblend highlights is particularly well done, with 'false-prophet' Saruman being thrown done by the elder Ents. It brings to mind the idea of orthodox Judaism, that all halachic knowledge degrades over time as it is passed from generation to generation, as the speaker grows further and further from the original source of Moses. Saruman is the newer, introducing the blasphemy of industry to Middle Earth, whilst the Ents are the older who cast down his heathen world.

Of course I am doubtless reading too much into the paintings, but I figured others would be interested in my musings regardless.
 
H

hunnies28

Member
Oh dear, this test knows me so well.

"You've read a bit, but something tells us that you usually skip the map illustrations, don't you?"

4
 
T

The Artful Dodger

Member
I didn't want to talk about this on the Silmarillion thread but I still wanted to say it. What's interesting looking at the scope of the MIddle Earth stories is how much it seems to shrink as it goes on. It starts with Melkor in this giant cosmic battle, then it's him vs Elves, then it's Sauron vs what's left of the elves, and the men, then it's less than that with the ring, then it keeps contracting down to Saruman with the scouring of the Shire.


I don't really know where I'm going with that, it's just something that dawned on me with the read through of the Silmarillion. How it starts as this great cosmic war, and contracts until it's the Hobbits (the smallest of the small), fighting for their homes.
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
The Artful Dodger said:
I didn't want to talk about this on the Silmarillion thread but I still wanted to say it. What's interesting looking at the scope of the MIddle Earth stories is how much it seems to shrink as it goes on. It starts with Melkor in this giant cosmic battle, then it's him vs Elves, then it's Sauron vs what's left of the elves, and the men, then it's less than that with the ring, then it keeps contracting down to Saruman with the scouring of the Shire.


I don't really know where I'm going with that, it's just something that dawned on me with the read through of the Silmarillion. How it starts as this great cosmic war, and contracts until it's the Hobbits (the smallest of the small), fighting for their homes.
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Spot on observation. The theme of diminution is one of the most prevalent themes in Tolkien's works.
 
L

Loxley

Member
George R.R. Martin has some interesting questions with regards to Tolkien in a new Rolling Stone interview:

*edit - This is from a couple months ago, but hey, food for thought.

Martin, who is a fan of Tolkien’s works, has often criticised The Lord of the Rings for the over-simplification of the themes that it deals with. In his latest interview, he has challenged Tolkien’s portrayal of power:

"Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?"
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Martin also spoke about Tolkien’s treatment of war:

"The war that Tolkien wrote about was a war for the fate of civilization and the future of humanity, and that’s become the template. I’m not sure that it’s a good template, though. The Tolkien model led generations of fantasy writers to produce these endless series of dark lords and their evil minions who are all very ugly and wear black clothes. But the vast majority of wars throughout history are not like that."
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It's not surprising that Martin repeatedly brings up "that's not how _______ worked historically" when discussing Tolkien, given how much he's a stickler for that sort of thing. Especially in ASOIAF, which takes a lot of inspiration from real-life events like the Wars of the Roses.
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Loxley said:
George R.R. Martin has some interesting questions with regards to Tolkien in a new Rolling Stone interview:

*edit - This is from a couple months ago, but hey, food for thought.





It's not surprising that Martin repeatedly brings up "that's not how _______ worked historically" when discussing Tolkien, given how much he's a stickler for that sort of thing. Especially in ASOIAF, which takes a lot of inspiration from real-life events like the Wars of the Roses.
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He brings up some very interesting points, although some of his questions can be answered by delving into other areas of the Legendarium.

But it seems as though Martin is falling into the same trap many do and seeing only 'good' and 'evil' which is myopic.

One must also remember that the Legendarium including The Lord of the Rings is more a mythos, rather than a historical fantasy fiction. A distinction that is very important. Much of what he wants and includes in his own works aren't found in the germs of inspiration for Tolkien; didactic sagas.
 
L

Loxley

Member
Edmond Dantès;116039432 said:
He brings up some very interesting points, although some of his questions can be answered by delving into other areas of the Legendarium.

But it seems as though Martin is falling into the same trap many do and seeing only 'good' and 'evil' which is myopic.

One must also remember that the Legendarium including The Lord of the Rings is more a mythos, rather than a historical fantasy fiction. A distinction that is very important. Much of what he wants and includes in his own works aren't found in the germs of inspiration for Tolkien; didactic sagas.
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Yep. Martin's criticisms are legitimate from a certain point of view, but as you said, that point of of view is from that of somebody who seems to be misinterpreting what Tolkien was aiming to create with the Legendarium.
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
J. R. R. Tolkien Has A Touching Message For His Former Teachers In Newly Discovered Letter

http://www.businessinsider.com/tolkien-teachers-newly-discovered-letter-2014-6

The letter in question:

Dear Mrs. Mountfield,

The letter you sent from one of your class children gave me great pleasure. "The Hobbit" seems to go down well at school; I have had several letters telling me of class activities arising from interest in it. Not all as well penned as this.

All the same, I hope it will turn out not be the only to you from Oxford, for you to hand on. All teaching is exhausting, and depressing and one is seldom comforted by knowing when one has had some effect. I wish I could now tell some of mine (of long ago) how I remember them and things they said, though I was (only, as it appeared) looking out of the window or giggling at my neighbour.

Yours sincerely,
J. R. R. Tolkien
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Sold for £2500 at Bonhams:

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21763/lot/277/
 
A

Aylinato

Member
Edmond Dantès;117931466 said:
That would be like survival school. Learning to live in the wild; hunting, gathering, shelter building etc. All of that in the beautiful though at times deadly surroundings of Middle-earth.
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Sounds perfect, sign me up!
 
S

SatelliteOfLove

Member
Edmond Dantès;117259757 said:
Yep, it's nice handwriting. I've seen far worse from professors I've encountered.
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This brings up the question, did the elvish way of writing come from his handwriting, or did his handwriting become elvish over time? It's especially good and legible considering how vertically squished it is.
 
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The Artful Dodger

Member
Picked up Tolkien's Beowulf. It's good so far. In many ways it reminds me of T.E. Lawrence's translation of the Odyssey. In the sense that both were careful to capture certain elements of their original source. Also both are presented in Prose despite the original being Poetry, of course.
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
The Artful Dodger said:
Picked up Tolkien's Beowulf. It's good so far. In many ways it reminds me of T.E. Lawrence's translation of the Odyssey. In the sense that both were careful to capture certain elements of their original source. Also both are presented in Prose despite the original being Poetry, of course.
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Indeed.

Lawrence and Tolkien, two men who survived WW1 and shared very different fates. One is remembered and loved for the fantasy world he created, the other for the pivotal role he played in the Arab Revolt. One initially enlisted on the General Service Corps, the other a Lancashire Fusilier.

Tolkien would lose friends and survive the Somme, it changed him greatly and aided him in his future writings. Lawrence on the other hand was broken after the Revolt. He felt himself a fraud. Embittered and disillusioned he joined the RAF under an assumed name. This is the RAF before it gained great distinction in WW2. This role in the RAF he felt worth pursuing, he felt he had found peace and contentment at last. But he was outed by the press, and his superiors were wary of his 'celebrity' causing trouble amongst the ranks. So he found himself back in the army (in the ranks) which he despised. He said once that he felt like a man amongst children, that he had experienced more in his life than the lives of three or four of the youngsters around him. This was very true, as he had traveled extensively in his youth throughout the Middle East while researching for his dissertation on crusader castles. He achieved a First for that, and reading his letters of that period it is clear to see that he had great hopes and ambitions. Later letters by the man reveal much too, a man at the end of his tether, with only his bike named Boanerges his sole concern in life.

After the stint in the army, his superiors worried greatly as they would become aware of a veiled threat of suicide. In the end, it was decided that he would be reinstated to the RAF. He wore the Blue proudly again, he legally changed his name to T.E Shaw to further distance himself from 'Lawrence'. He achieved some semblance of peace for a time before his untimely death in a motorcycle accident.

Some claim that Shaw's issues were down his sexuality, while his brother had always maintained that he was asexual, that he was capable of loving, but the physical act itself repulsed him (Shaw said as much in a letter to a friend). That he may have married had he not followed the path he did. But one can see through his letters that such things were of no consequence to him, especially in latter life.

What would Tolkien and Shaw feel about how they are perceived now? Tolkien would be quite satisfied that he is remembered as a great academic and one of the founding fathers of modern fantasy. Shaw I deduct would be dismayed that he is remembered merely for his role in the Arab Revolt and his other achievements overlooked.

The letters of Tolkien are easily accessible in a nice little package (although now dated due to recent discoveries), Shaw's letters are scattered and divided, and all but forgotten by the general reading public. They are well worth tracking down, and so is his dissertation.

War changes all those who it touches, and change it certainly did these two great contemporaries.
 
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