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[EmCeeGramr]

Is 3DO truly dead ? (12/3/96)

Now that I've read the new NG feature on M2, it seems very clear that
the 3DO IS obsolete as a platform, and that Trip Hawkins is a complete
waste of space, and a liar.

I can't remember an instance in history where a games console has been
so utterly dropped by it's creators (esp. such a unique and lovely piece
of hardware as was the opera). I feel totally cheated.

*** HOWEVER ***

Assuming the price of the 3DO and it's software continue to fall, then
it will become the only affordable platform for many people who wouldn't
usually buy a games console. Then assume that the user base for the 3DO
increases because of the low price, and what happens then ?

Well, the real question is whether it's still possible to develop for
the 3DO ? I've heard that there are to be NO new games for the system,
but does that mean that you're not allowed to develop at all ?

I still believe that the 3DO is alive, & that It'll soon start kicking
again. I've been in awe of the 3DO since the day I got it, and I've
decided to keep it 'till the day I die.

Sorry dude Sega has developed more systems and abandon them then anyone
else, and least you for get, and Nintendo dropped Virtual boy and they are
finished with it...Every manufacture has said the same things, there
hardware is the best, Trip like him or not ushered in the next generation
machines, too bad the price was wrong, he could have dominated the 32bit
right from the start...

(the rest of the thread is actually interesting, some 3DO employees pop in and talk about what went wrong)


Next Gen Still sucks (2/6/96)

Why is it everytime i read this rag they need to rip
the dam 3DO, check out the new issue (i still get it delivered to my
doorstep, as soon as script runs out they lose a customer). PG 42
these guys give a video game dictionary( i guess no games to review)
and the 3do is descibed as and I Quote

"3DO: a 32bit system introduced in 1993, this console has an ARM60
RISC processor operating at 12.5 MHZ. Originally pushed as a $700
"multimedia machine" it languished until the price dropped and games
were emphasized . Still, it has not gained the footholdin the U.S. that
the 3DO company would like." END

IT JUST SEEMS THIS MAG LOVES TO RIP THE 3DO! IF YOU FEEL LIKE I DO
DON'T BUY THIS PIECE OF CRAP MAG.....

The problem is NG always focuses on the negative in relation to 3DO all
the time trying to claim the high ground of being an "unbiased"
publication. Read my review..

3DO: a 32bit CD-ROM system that hit the market in 1993 when other next
gen. systems were just a gleam in their respective CEO's eyes. It brought
forward a new level of gaming experience and was the first system to truly
put forward sound as an important facet of gaming(refer to NFS, RR, RF and
the use of Dolby surround sound). The system is now in possession of some
truly fine games that cannot be found on other platforms. These include
Starfighter, Battlesport, NFS & FOA among other. The familiarity that
developer have gained in developing for the system for two years has
resulted in very good games with excellent replay value. Unfortunately,
the lack of funds on the part of a small company like 3DO has resulted in
an inability to flood the airwaves with advertising which has resulted in
an inability to build "hype" which has resulted in the system being unable
to attain it's sales goals. However, the 3DO co has been busy developing a
successor machine called the M2 which will be offered in an "upgrade"
option to owners of the Opera system at a lower price that the stand alone
M2. Therefore rewarding purchaser of the Opera with chance to upgrade to
a faster system and yet retain their old library of games. Truly
innovative ideas from an innovative company!!


The review I would like to have seen in NG would have been somewhere in
the middle of mine and theirs. They are both factual but paint different
pictures of the value of the machine and what the "good" points are. I
stopped subscribing to that rag not because of system loyalties but
because I don't like the editors of a magazine I am paying for work under
the assumption that they need to tell me what to like.

You think that is bad try reading Die Hard Sony.. er Game Fan, 95% of
their mag is Sony, and when they do mention 3DO they just bash it. Don't
buy this piece of shit mag, just read it at newsstands like I do.

***Star-tling Next-Gen-System Comparisons***

You guys are gonna luv this one. Load up the heavy artillary. This is straight
from the new Next-Generation #12 - "Which Game System is the Best!?"

PSX Saturn 3DO PC-CD Jag 32X NeoCD M-2 U-64
Processing power **** *** ** **** ** * * ***** *****
Software Library **** *** *** ***** * * * n/a n/a
Third party supp ***** *** ** ***** * * * * ***
Marketing muscle **** **** ** n/a ** ** ** ** *****
Future prognosis ***** **** ** **** * * * **** ****
Overall ****1/2 ***1/2 ** ****1/2 ** * *1/2 **** ****1/2

Also:
Virtual Boy CD-I
PP ** *
ESL * *
TPS * *
MM *** **
FP ** *
O ** *

I can hear those panties bunching up already!

I DON'T like the fact that two unveiled, unavailable, and unproven
machines are included in what is essentially a holiday shopping guide.
The M2 ranks overall higher than the Saturn with no software library, 1
point of Support, and 2 points of Marketing. It then scores 4 points in
Future... with those same scores. Plus, in those same categories, the
NeoCD actually beats the M2 by having Software... but because the M2 has a
better processor, it magically scores in 2 1/2 extra Overall points? Do I
think this list is flawed? Why, yes. But hey, imperfection has never
stopped any magazine.

Geez did this actually appear in Next-Gen? I'm sorry but that's the last
straw, they've just lost all credibility. Not only do they contradict what
they've said before about the Saturn's processing power compared to the PS,
but they manage to make in-depth comparisons to systems that aren't even
close to release(M2 and U64)! This is almost as bad as Gamefan's system
comparison feature several months ago where they stated the Saturn could
only push 60,000 t-maps a sec., said the PS was 30 times more powerful than
the Saturn, and that the U64 was 1000 times more powerful.

I for one, as a Jag/Amiga owner have learned not to freak out when people say my system suck. i just know they're wrong.

> I also wonder how the future of PC-CDROM could be considered less than
> PSX. I believe this is utterly ludicrous.
>
> Chris

Well, for the PCs to compete with relatively inexpensive (and powerful)
game machines such as the PSX, the PC would need a slew of expensive
extra processing power (such as fast video cards, more ram, at least a
pentium processor, and what not). So,... i say, keep the computers for
word processing, if you want to play games, spend the $300, and move on.

Hmmmm,.. i think YOU guys are missing the point. To be able to play a
game such as Destruction Derby or Wipeout on a PC, and have it look as
good as it does on the PSX, i would need to spend at least $4000 on a
computer. The PSX is $300. As those lame atari ads say, "Do the math!"

Games SUCK on a PC (with a few exceptions here and there, so keep your
flames in your pants). If you are talking about future upgradability,
ok, you have a point, the PC defenitely has an advantage, but since these
are gaming newsgroups, i assume we are talking about games, so how can
you deny that the PSX is better than a PC???

This whole representation is off and appears to be heavily weighted (did
the source get kick-backs?...)

Examples: The CD-I library is greater than PSX+Saturns added together yet
it got one star. The 3DO's library is equal to PSX+Saturn+CD-I+Jag+32X yet
it only has two stars. The Saturn's third party support sucks yet it got
three stars. The Virtual Boy gets two stars for processing power; damn, how
power does it need to display red lights on a black background?

The PSX, PC-CD, Jag, 32X, M-2, & U-64 appear to be accurate, but the rest...
I don't think this carries much credability!

>Your an idiot! 3DO has more 3RD party licensees than any other game
>console. Think before you spew forth such nonsense!
>
>Sean

Ok buddy. If you say so. We'll see where 3DEAD0 is in a year or two,
judging by the way they have been going.I'm not going to get into the
debate with you, but Nintendo has more 3rd party liscensees then 3D0
and many other consoles have games! Case closed.

EGM employs IDIOTS !!!!! (9/19/95)

Namly DANO, AL, ANDREW, SUSHI...why because of the review they
gave Space Hulk, if they don't like the game, Fine, But to say that the
game has no backup or save feature is a Fucking Lie, if these Assholes
would take the time & effort they took to review the play(dead)Station
then why can'y they at least take the time to Acuratly review a 3do
game, the Campaign has a Save feature, as soon as you complete a
mission you are able to save it. And yes the Training missions are very
hard, but thats not the game THE CAMPAIGN IS!!! YOU GUYZ AT EGM ARE
FUCKING IDIOTS, if its not on the PLAY(dead)STATION it must not be too
good.
Also the pics of Pimal Rage look like they bury saturn &
play(dead)Station, but all you get From these IDIOTS IS 3do is just up
to par with smaller charachters.. GAME FAN IS THE MAG I've seen very
little BIAS opinions in this mag...Also Q-Mann is still Right on
time!!! Q-mann you should work somewhere else EGM is a joke and taint
your UN-biased opinions

I think they probably didnt complete a campaign so they didnt find the save
feature.

I`ve read about 4 reviews on this game from magazines and all have been pretty
good ratings but what really gets me is that the same magazines will give a Saturn
or Playstation game that gets 40% review and give it a double spread and then I see
Space Hulk with 80% and they give it half a page.

I have noticed that the more ads you see for a particular system's
software in EGM the higher the ratings and the more exposure the
system gets in the articles. But I am sure its just a coincidence.

Any alleged opinions expressed above are attributable
to no individual or corporation, due to the ease with
which Usenet Newsgroup posts can be forged.

Have you ever noticed how much they cater to advertising. Sit there
and count the pages. A full ONE-HALF of the mag (rag?) is devoted to
ads. And of course the scum are going to give more time and effort to a
Sony game than a 3DO game. Sony has a much bigger advertising budget!
I've owned a Jag for some time now and they do the same thing to that
system too. There is a reason I haven't purchased their oversized toilet
paper for over a year. You shouldn't either.

***ULTRA 64 - WHAT THE EXPERTS HAVE TO SAY*** (7/11/95)

*So you see from these quotes that the NU64 is in fact a REALITY.
Biased you might say. I can hardly believe that Speilberg, LucasArts,
GAMEFAN, Square and EGM are all biased, they have no need to be.
Theses were comments from not only experts in their fields but from
DEVELOPERS themselves. Besides EGM and GAMEFAN would lose alot of
profits if they were indeed biased. To me, when people say that those
mags are biased, I see it as an excuse. I don't think that all mags
own ONLY Nintendo products and are set out to destroy Nintendo's
competitors. You have to remember that mags get exclusive info that
the public never gets until after a few months. They also get to try
out the systems before we ever do, so I rather here opinions from
people who have ACTUALLY seen the systems, than from kids who seem to
think they know it all. I like to post quotes and facts, not biased
remarks. I'd like for once to see people back up their replies with
quotes and facts, instead of just false or biased info.

No they would not lose profits if they were biased. They always have
been, and always will be. Not necessarily for the big 'N' either. They
kiss butt for the newest hottest piece of vapor that is a remote
possiblity. They will do what they can get away with, because the
companies know that if a game gets reviews by one of these idiot rags
that it will likely sell due to the visibility it offers. EGM and
Gamefan are not reliable source, IMO. They never, ever addressed the
monopoly set up by the big 'N' during the 8-bits.

Ultra 64 - Excuses from the experts
-----------------------------------

"Well, we're very please with the Ultra 64 development schedule. Things
are only about 8 months behind schedule, which is nothing new here at
Nintendo. We're simply following the same timetable which was used for
the Super NES, and, hell, it sold like hotcakes. So, aside from forcing
the public to wait until after the Christmas buying season, there
shouldn't be any problems."

"What about the release of Sega and Sony's 32 bit systems?"

"There are other systems?"
- From an interview in _Gamez R Kewel_
vol 2.5 with an anonymous Nintendo
Of America executive

"It's a proven fact that the longer people have to wait for our product,
the more they like it. After all, tension builds excitement. By the
time March rolls around, the launch of the Ultra 64 will be about as
exciting as a sucking chest wound."

- Anonymous Developer

"THE U64 IS S00PER KEWEL D00DZ!! NINTENDO RULEZ!!!!!!! EVERYONE WILL
WANT THE ULTRA 63 BECAUSE NOTHING ELSE CAN BE AS KEWEL AS NINTENDO! I
CA'T WAIT FOR THE ULTRA 64 IT'S GOING TO BE REALLY REALLY KEWEL AND STUFF!!"

- B1FF

"We're really thrilled to have the opportunity to work with Nintendo in
bringing the ultimate video game experienc home. Unfortunatly, we've
been delayed due to our lack of experience with the video game industry,
but we hope to be ready to deliver the best in full-motion video games in
March. Our first project will be _Intolerance_, which will be released
on at least 5 carts, and will retail for no more than $289.95."

- Cecil B. DeMile, speaking from the grave

"I told them I simply couldn't write another Mario game. I told them I'd
rather die than give them another Mario game. They reminded me that I
had agreed to help produce at least 12 more Mario games, or forfeit my
soul. Work has been falling behind because I keep passing out from
fatigue, and have lost two fingers due to misbehavior. I beg of someone,
anyone, to put me out of my misery and end this eternal torment."

- Annonymous Japanese Game Developer

Well, there you have it folks! Solid, unbiased PROOF that the Nintendo
Ultra 64 is more than just vaporware, and that Nintendo isn't just being
lazy, pathetic, mindless corporate cogs, too busy tying themselves up in
bureaucratic red tape in their feeble attempts to deliver pie-in-the-sky
promises. Gee whiz, I simply can't wait for the Ultra 64 to be
released!

 

[mantidor]

This is still facinating.

I remember when I got my N64 people still called it "ultra" in the streets.

 

[CrunchinJelly]

This sounds pretty familiar a certain console. O_O

"3DO: a 32bit system introduced in 1993, this console has an ARM60
RISC processor operating at 12.5 MHZ. Originally pushed as a $700
"multimedia machine" it languished until the price dropped and games
were emphasized . Still, it has not gained the footholdin the U.S. that
the 3DO company would like."

 

[PetriP-TNT]

Glad to see this thread was bumped, great stuff. PoS2 is quite brilliant, so simple and still I hadn't really heard it before.

 

[LabouredSubterfuge]

It just amazes me how the talking points are so analogous to today's issues.

 

[baphomet]

Good ol usenet discussions. Its basically gaf from 20 years ago. Im sure quite a few of us were likely posting in those discussions back then.

 

[Myriadis]

I remember reading some of these on some archives and reading by several people that A Link To The Past is much worse then Final Fantasy II (IV).

 

[EmCeeGramr]

SNES BASHING (8/30/91)

Well, I haven't done any bashing, but I certainly don't plan to buy
the SNES. It might be a decent system, but there's a few points that
can't be denied:

1. It's pretty sad that the system runs so slow. If one of the very first
games available for the machine (Super R-Type) has problems with slowdown
and flicker, that doesn't say mcuh for the machine. I don't recall
ever hearing such complaints about the early Genesis games or ANY early
release games for ANY system! Maybe programmers can deal with it in the
future, but things don't look too peachy, folks..

2. I for one am tired of Nintendo's crummy attitude and their way of business.
Nintendo's seal of quality ended up being downright meaningless with the
junk they were spewing out and calling games for the NES. They inflate
prices, threaten the stores that sell their products, and they think
they can steer any company they deal with in any direction they please...
I'm tired of their lawsuits against companies with innovative ideas,
tired of dealing with them in any shape or form.

I refuse to buy into that company again....and I think there are a lot of
people with similar opinions.

> I just want to know why a lot of people (Genesis,Megadrive)
> owners have to "BASH" the new Nintendo "SNES" when the
> system has only been here in the US for less than a week!

The reason that Genesis/Mega Drive owners are "bashing" the Super
NES is because we've played the Super Famicom games many, many months
ago before the Super NES hit the states. For the time being, I really
think that the video game magazines have hyped the Super NES too much
because it's really not that "Super." I've played many of the games
for the Super Famicom and there are only a few that I like. In fact,
out the three games available for the Super NES right now, I only like
Super Mario World -- which I will admit is a very excellent game. The
other games I just hate. Especially Pilot Wings. I never am taken in
by a game on graphics or graphical tricks alone and Pilot Wings is no
exception. Take away the scaling (which isN't too hot) and rotation
and you've got a boring game which I would rather twiddle my thumbs
than play.

> Give the system and its new owners a chance!!!!!!!

I think new owners will enjoy Actraiser, whenever that comes out
here. Actraiser is a very good game that wouldn't be very good on any
other system at the present because of it's great sound. I wonder why
this wasn't released instead of Pilot Wings, which I would rate a 4.
New Super NES owners should also be careful about the Mega Play and
EGM ratings for the Super Famicom games. Some of the rating are ridi-
culously high even though the game sucks. In fact, some of them men-
tion slow down and dismiss it as merely annoying when in reality, the
slow down renders the game almost unplayable (to me, at least).

Part 2

Unfortunately, most of the negative things he is saying about the SNES is
true. The resolution on the SNES is the same as on the normal nintendo,
although it does have more colors. (wow) It's processor speed is also slow,
somewhere around 3.5mhz. The Genesis rips this to shreds.

Maybe *you* should give other systems and its owners a chance instead of
slapping someone upside the head...

The New Super NES (8/9/91)

I just picked up 4 new games for my Super Famicom. Below are my impressions:

Seta Baseball - If you are looking for a baseball game, Jaleco's is the way
to go. Forget this one. The players are "chibi" style. There are cartoon
intermissions for various actions (hit a home run and you get to watch some
fan get bonked on the head by the ball, etc.) I think it's for kids.

Y's III - Can't comment. It's a Japanese RPG with pretty bad music (sounds
like the Master System soundtrack).

Gundam F91 - War game like military madness, with an action sequence when
engaging the enemy. Pretty poor for an 8 mbit game. The action part is
very boring and just involves a mindless joystick movement.

Super R-Type - I am beginning to think the SF can not do a shooter. Slow
down everywhere. Pretty graphics and nice sound though, but the game is
pretty unplayable due to slow down and also the way the game starts the
level over when you die one life (imagine having to repeat an entire level
in Thunder Force III whenever you die.) One hit will kill you, increasing
frustration!!

Electronic Gaming Monthly (EGM) Tsk Tsk Tsk (8/7/91)

>>I like EGM because they have the best reviews (as long as you
>>subtract the 2 automatic points any shooter game gets) and they don't
>>fear to call a dog a dog.
>
> They tend to place too much emphasis on flashy graphics/sound, and not
>enough on substenance, IMO. And yes, shooters get way too much attention,
>though that's no worse than any other reviewers' biases. I'm not completely
>comfortable with their numeric rankings, though -- I mean, TURTLES on the
>Gameboy gets better scores than ROADBLASTERS on the Lynx??? I've played
>both games, guys, the numbers are skewed...

So true. How can anyone even call what EGM publishes "reviews?"
They're just little three sentence game summaries and two and a half
sentences are devoted to sound and graphics, with the other half
sentence relating to "difficulty level." Video Games & Computer
Entertainment isn't the ultimate magazine, and they really annoyed me
when they started pushing a 900 number, but at least they write fairly
decent reviews. Yeah, some reviews are lousy, but for they at least
have a few good reviewers who can write consistently decent reviews.

For an example of how game reviews *should* be written, check out
Computer Gaming World. Sure, they don't cover the dedicate home
market, but they really know how to review a game.

As far as I'm concerned, EGM's PC-Engine coverage is a travesty and an
embarrassment to anyone who owns a Turbo. They are WAY too Genesis/Mega Drive
and Super NES/Super Famicom happy. They run at most 2 or 3 games in their
INternational Section to make people think they are not biased! That's
cheap considering there's just as many new PC-Engine releases as there are
Mega Drive.

Sad to say though that they ARE perhaps the BEST U.S magazine. Their Mega Drive
and Super Famicom coverage is pretty decent and they are the first to publish
the new stuff, though those of us who get the Japanese magazines know where
they steal that from! I still pick up EGM once in a while when they have
some good stuff concerning the Mega Drive/Genesis but if they covered half
as much PC-Engine stuff as Famicom Tsushin I would pick it up every month.

Just my opinions. Not flaming anyone out, just EGM. (Don't you wish those
guys had accounts?

First Impressions SNES (8/26/91)

Well, I finally got a chance to play with an SNES this weekend, and I
thought I'd throw in my two bits.

First, I'll retract my previous statement that the SNES controllers
appeared cheasy. Appearance <> Performance. The controllers work
suprisingly well. Button placement seems to be well thought out, and
the six firing buttons do not seem nearly as overwelming as I originally
thought. (The controllers are still on the "light" side. I like 'em
with a bit more mass!)

What can one say about the console? It's a grey box, and a cart snaps
in the top. The eject button is cute, but seems unecessary. And what
is that I see on the bottom of the console? A CD rom connector?

My friend who bought the unit, opted not to purchase any other games
with it, so we just played SMW - pretty good stuff! The graphics were
a big disapointment on this title. With the exception of some of the
disolve effects, and the gratuitous use of scaling/rotation on one
of the bosses - this one could be done on an NES. The playability
was there though. Lots of new attack possibilities, and the addition
of Yoshi the dinosaur is fun too. We've only made it to the Vanilla
dome level, but the game looks huge!

With only one game to play, I'm in no position to judge the system
itself. As I mentioned, the graphics in SMW were so-so, the sound on
the other hand was really great. Terrific music, and neat sound effects.
(Particularly when you go inside a cave.) I'm looking forward to
seeing F-zero next.

Somehow though, I think I'll be sticking w/ my Genesis for some
time to come. The SNES looks like it has potential, but I'm taking
a wait and see attitude about software (quality and quantity).

What's wrong with today's games (8/22/91)

>When I was a teenager, I was a video game addict on machines like the
>Atari 2600 and Intellivision. Even though the games on both machines
>were woefully primitive by today's standards, the selection of games
>was pretty varied. You could get shoot-em-ups, maze games, sports
>games, action/strategy games (Intellivision Sea Battle is probably the
>best example of this type), pure strategy games like checkers/chess,
>role-playing games, and original games based on far-out ideas, such as
>Qix. I also owned an Atari 800, which played several games that were
>showcases of creativity and good game design, Archon, M.U.L.E.,
>Pinball Construction Set, Rescue on Fractalus, and Ballblazer are just
>a few of the original, fun games available on that system.
>
>I've noticed that there's now a standard set of terminology to
>describe features of video games. "Power ups" and "bosses". All it
>says to me is that most of the games on the market (at least the
>Genesis) share so many common elements that you can give them names.
>These video games are following a formula. Perhaps this is because
>everybody is in a race to get titles on the market. But why do I want
>to buy the same game all the time, only with different graphics?

YES YES YES YES YES! Finally, somebody can see through all of this
nonsense! Another thank you to Teh Kao Yang for similar comments.

First of all, I am NOT a Genesis hater or a Nintendo hater or a hater
of any video game manufacturer. I would also say that I am not a fan
of any such corporation either. I realize that many readers of
rec.games.video have violent loyalties to certain companies and that
their reaction to my comments will be clouded by such. You can be a
fan of a particular game or of a game designer or group of designers or
maybe a company that writes games. But to be a "fan" of a giant like
Sega or Nintendo? It's like being a fan of Proctor & Gamble or
DuPont. I have better things to do than spray paint "GENESIS RULES" on
a bridge.

It is also tempting to think that I'm just reminiscing about the Good
Ole Days when every game was a classic and everyone lived in harmonious
peace and tranqulity with the universe. But the fact is that there
WERE video games before the current wave of systems and you have a very
limited view of things if you were never exposed to them. There were
games for the Atari 2600, Atari 5200, Intellivision, ColecoVision,
Astrocade, Vectrex, Vic-20, Odyssey-2, Channel F, AdventureVision,
Commodore 64, Atari 8-bit computers, Apple II, and TI 99/4A. *LOTS* of
games. THOUSANDS of games. The Atari 2600 alone had several hundred
games for it. Plus, coin-op arcade games have been in production since
the early seventies, and hit a major peak from 1979 to 1982. All of
this before anyone heard the word "boss" or "power-up" or used a
conjugate of the verb "solve" in reference to a game by a company other
than Infocom.

During all of this time, video games never really "settled down."
Games were constanly changing in an effort to find a new audience.
Sure, a big-hit like Pac-Man would come along and spawn a quick splash
of clones, but unless a clone added some new feature, like the doors in
Mousetrap, it was quickly forgotten. After all, Pac-Man is a concept
more than it is graphics. Any other maze game full of things to eat
and energizers basically WAS Pac-Man. So game designers moved on to
different ideas.

From '80 to '82 there was Donkey Kong, Robotron, Xevious, Mr. Do,
Defender, Galaga, Carnival, Reactor, Missile Command, Zaxxon, Tempest,
Centipede, Qix, Crazy Climber, Dragon's Lair, Sinistar, Joust,
Kick-Man, Tron, etc--just look at the variety. Some general themes
would stick around for a few years, "cute games" for instance, and out
of that would come Pengo, Burger Time, Q-Bert, Food Fight, Frogger,
Domino Man, and so on. Being "cute" was about all they had in common.

Out of all of these thousands of games, the great majority of modern
home games are based on FOUR of them: Scramble (1981), Front Line
(1982), Karateka (1983), and Karate Champ (1984)--maybe Kung Fu Master
(1984) as well. This is completely ridiculous. Sure, these games were
great and fun and everything else, but this non-stop cloning is a
complete joke and has been for years. It's getting hard to
differentiate between individual games, the only things that that
change are the shape of the enemies, the bosses, the power-ups, and the
scenery. The game itself is still the same. You can play poker with a
different deck of cards, but it's still poker.

Of course, not ALL games for the Genesis are like this. But after
weeding through the Scramble clones and Front Line clones and Karateka
clones and so on, there's not much left. And what little there is
isn't very original and is usually attacked by the magazines for not
being shooters, so they don't sell as well, giving very little
incentive for future originality. To make things worse, a lot of the
"new ideas" may look completely different, but the underlying concept
is still "get to the end and 'win'."

It is easy to say that "there aren't any original ideas left," but this
is bunk. Atari Games still maintains that early-eighties will to
experiment, and each of their games reflects it. But for the most
part, the big game companies have everyone fooled into thinking that
there isn't anything other than shooters and RPGs so they'll keep
cranking 'em out and everyone will gobble them up so they'll make
more.

Another problem is that there are VERY few good game designers. Lots
of good programmers, but not designers. Just about all of Nintendo's
hits were designed by the same person. Designers used to first come up
with a game concept. Nowadays, they decide to write a shooter and then
concentrate on burning questions like "what power-ups should we have?"

You can put ANYTHING onto a CRT that you can possibly imagine. There
is no restriction saying that it has to be a bunch of junk that scrolls
to the left with a boss at the end. But if that's what you want, that's
what you'll get.

Atari-Jaguar, Panther, Lynx (10/10/91)

Does it seem to anyone else that the video game market is starting to
get a bit fragmented? There are the following "active" home systems:
NES, SNES, Genesis, TurboGrafx-16, Neo*Geo, and Atari 7800; four major
handheld systems; and a bunch of computers with decently-sized
entertainment markets: IBM PC, Macintosh, Atari ST, Commodore-64, and
Amiga. Now this isn't really all that bad. The Atari 7800, ST, and
Neo*Geo are basically non-factors. And the Amiga and TurboGrafx-16
seem to be losing ground in the US. But still, this is a pretty good
number of platforms for entertainment software.

Now Sega's Mega-CD is on the way, and Atari is poised to release the
Jaguar into this mess. And here comes CD-I, with systems from maybe
half a dozen companies, including Sony, Magnanvox, and Commodore. And
pretty soon CD-ROM drives will be standard on all computers (Microsoft
is really pushing for CD-ROMs on all PC compatibles) which will break
the computer entertainment market wide open--bigger games, easier for
average users to handle (no installation of 5 floppies onto a hard
disk), and minimal piracy.

Just a few observations. Any comments? It will be interesting to
see what happens during the next year or two...

No. IMHO the video game market is mostly NES and Genesis today, with
smaller fragments to NEC. The home computer game market is
essentially separate with (mostly) a different genre of games devoted
to more strategy and less action. The Mac is not a good game platform
for the general video games (I do own one and I do have some nice
games for it but...) and the PC also suffers. The Amiga is pretty
good. But PCs do not have sprite hardware, and you need ungodly
processor speeds to make up for that, and the PCs don't have it - yet.

So the market is developing with SNES as the next serious machine and
a couple of the other players adding CDRom. But, CDRom is, as yet, a
very expensive technology in regards to the video game market.

The next generation machines being talked about are all in the > $300
range. Most of these systems are bought by parents for kids. I'm a
parent and I'd be damned if I'd ever kick that much money for a game
system. It's also getting to the point that improvement in the systems
is a little pointless until the video hardware improves, i.e. HDTV).

For HDTV there will be another wave. Hopefully by that time, maybe
mid to late 90's, memory and processor speed will be up to the
order of magnitude in increase for memory needed for the 2000x1400
pixel full resolution HDTV screen. More likely will be scaled down
signals from video games that are compatible with HDTV inputs. We'll
see.

 

[SeventhSon]

Now Sega's Mega-CD is on the way, and Atari is poised to release the
Jaguar into this mess. And here comes CD-I, with systems from maybe
half a dozen companies, including Sony, Magnanvox, and Commodore. And
pretty soon CD-ROM drives will be standard on all computers (Microsoft
is really pushing for CD-ROMs on all PC compatibles) which will break
the computer entertainment market wide open--bigger games, easier for
average users to handle (no installation of 5 floppies onto a hard
disk), and minimal piracy.​

Was CD considered uncopyable in the early 90s?

 

[Kumubou]

Was CD considered uncopyable in the early 90s?

CD-Rs didn't exist until 1990, and were not even remotely affordable for years after that. Per Wikipedia:

CD-R recording systems available in 1990 were similar to the washing machine-sized Meridian CD Publisher, based on the two-piece rack mount Yamaha PDS audio recorder costing $35,000, not including the required external ECC circuitry for data encoding, SCSI hard drive subsystem, and MS-DOS control computer. By 1992, the cost of typical recorders was down to $10–12,000, and in September 1995, Hewlett-Packard introduced its model 4020i manufactured by Philips, which, at $995, was the first recorder to cost less than $1000.

Once the prices of the recorders and media started approaching mass market prices, then it started becoming a big problem.

 

[SeventhSon]

Right! I knew that. I forgot that while the tech was out there for copying CD, it was far too expensive for the mass market until the mid 90s.

 

[televator]

Panzer Dragon is an OK game. Seeing Toshinden on the PSX though will have
you looking for the nearest litterbox to throw your Saturn into.

This had me rolling! Oh man, if only people knew back then...

 

[The Boat]

I somehow missed this thread. It's both hilarious and depressing.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

I also remember noticing the "trend" in NES games becoming designed around "stages" with a "boss" at the end, haha.

 

[Backfoggen]

Online video game discussion will be exactly the same 20 years from now too.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

The future of gaming systems... (5/4/97)

>Does anyone think there will be a virtual reality home entertainment
>system released in the next 10-15 years?

Hmm. . Interestig question. I think something also interesting
would be HDTV gaming. Right now, the highest resolution console
is 640x480. Arcade games are going up to 800x600. But imagine
3000x1000 crystal clear images.

Seeing how resolution seems to be doubling (horizontal resolution)
every generation, and each generation is about 6 years.
I suppose in about 6 more years, we'll have HDTV quality?
Then another 6 more doubling that (cause it needs to create
two images, one for each eye). So year 2009 is my projection.
I'll be 33 by then. Scary thought.

> If so, what do you think it
>will be like? Who do you think will release it? etc, etc...

Maybe a company we haven't even ever heard of? That would be cool.

Whatever it will be... virtual headsets, 3D TV... it will be amazing.

Just think about what videogames were 15 years ago. ATARI's VCS 2600 was
out
and considered the best home entertainment system. Oh boy.

Now compare those early games with today's top titles on any platform, e.g.
3Dfx-Quake on the PC, WipeOut XL on the Playstation or Mario World 64 on
the Nintendo.

I can't even imagine what they (whoever that might be) will bestow on us in
the next decade or two.
No one could have imagined what games would look like today back in 1982.

SF2 comming to Genesis! (10/4/92)

Just a note for all SF2 fans that it WILL be available for the Genesis
sometime next year. Capcom will not be making it; instead, Sega has bought
the rights and will be making it themselves. I don't know if it will be on
cart or on CD, nor do I know whether or not it will be the Championship
edition.

No flames please; I'm just passing along some newly learned facts.

Ok. Say that Genesis does have SF2. How will the controls work? There
are after all only 3 buttons in the Genesis controller. WIll they sell a
special controller with the package (making it even more expensive)? I don't
think the adaptation can be that good---just for that reason.

Ok, Ok, so there are 5 buttons. Still, the two 'other' buttons (Start and
Reset) are needed to modify options inside the game.

Unless Sega actually modifies the games system itself, I doubt they will be
releasing a controler with more than 3 player action buttons. The Genesis
console just doesn't have the pinouts to support them.

My understanding is that there's some sort of chip that compresses the signals
from the buttons (I could be way off here but I thought I heard something of
the sort). It would probable be pretty easy to get a new chip in the
controllers which supported a few extra buttons.

Besides, would Sega miss the chance to charge consumers not only $50 or
more for a game but also force them to buy 2 special joysticks to play this
game? I think not. At least on the SNES you could use the joypads (they
work better than I had expected for SF2).

Will Street Fighter II kill Genesis? (3/29/92)

With Street Fighter II being released for the Super Famicom and SNES,
and no Genesis version in sight, the Genesis could be in trouble. I've always
said that one game does not make or break a system, but SFII could be the
exception. I think that due to this one game alone, the vast majority of
people who will be buying a 16 bit system this year will opt for the SUper
NES...and I think a lot of people who own Genesis (or for that matter Turbo
if they haven't ditched it already) will be trying to purchase a SNES. I know
that for myself, I'd love to get a Super NES and Street Fighter II is a
huge drawing card.
Comments? Opinions? Is the Street Fighter II threat as great as I
think?

It is my personal opinion that SF2 will be the reason behind at least 50%
of all SFamicom/SNES sales worldwide. It's safe to say that the SNES will
become the most popular system overnight, when SF2 gets released. One
good reason is because the game will be so UTTERLY true to the arcade version.
First, there'll be a wash of people who simply want a home version of SF2...
and then when everyone who DIDN'T buy the game discovers that even the well-
known complex combos will work, THEY'LL run off and buy one, for practice if
nothing else. The Genesis will suffer, this is certain.
Looking at the pics in the latest EGM (yeah sure, it's got probs, but it's
STILL the best mag immediately available to us), I've noticed only some of
the scantest differences... for instance, in Guile's area, the box-crates
are a little small... and the font used at the top of the screen is too
large... yet the pics are from a not-yet-complete version, so they'll
probably fix even these. Some similarities which might escape some people's
observations include: The background does parallax-scroll, and the ground
does perspective-scroll...and the people in the backgrounds are animated,
among other things (like in Ken's area, I could tell that the big boat in
the background goes up and down like on the arcade version). Okay, I've
said enough. Simply expect at least 95% of all SNES owners to have this
game, and expect the majority of SNES buyers to buy it BECAUSE of this game
alone.

What? that's all? I think SFII is bigger, much bigger
threat than that: it will RUIN the Genesis as a force in the 16 bit arena.
I think even the Turbo will pick up a few sales, with their version coming on
Super CD-ROM. This game is on every videogame player's mind. For proof, thread
through this newsgroup and rec.games.video.arcade and you people will know that I'm telling the truth, that SFII is here to stay.

Man, this is THE only game that I had to wait in line
for my turn. I'm not talking a small crowd, I'm talking about a line! Everyone
wants a piece of the action. Just try and play it at a bowling alley or arcade
on a saturday night, you'll have to wait forever! That goes double for SFII:TCE,I mean that it got to the point that at my local arcade, they had to break out
pencil and paper to keep track of who's turn it is. I think EGM might be right
on this one:that SFII alone will sell a million SNESes for Nintendo.

I know that I'm going to get toasted on this one. Hell,
I can care less: you can't deny a fact. Sooner or later you are going to have toaccept it

(the rest of the thread is an incredible back and forth argument about EGM pictures and the exactness of the port or something)


The nintendo bashers...

(2/27/92)
For the longest time, the Nintendo bashers were happy bashing the NES
for being an 8 bit machine, and how Nintendo was the anti-Christ of
game systems, what with their unholy control over the game market, and
how much better Sega was...

Then the SNES came out, and suddenly the bashers started harping on the
flicker, the slowdowns, and all of the other technical problems(!?) the
SNES had, and how much better Sega was...

Enter Smash-TV, a game that didn't have all of the slowdown problems.
Suddenly, Smash-TV is technically an easy game to implement without
slowdowns, and how any bozo could have written it on the SNES, much
better Sega is...

Blah Blah Blah...

Get a clue. Nintendo has done the things it has done to keep it's
market shares. This is not uncommon for *any* producer to do, to skate
just one side of anything they can legally get away with in order to
keep the maximum market share. There is no reason to think that either
Sega or Atari wouldn't have done what Nintendo did had they been given
the chance.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Sega system is a good system. But the
blind prejudice that a lot of the Nintendo bashers hold simply because
they don't like the fact that Nintendo has done what was in its best
interest as a company to ensure maximum profitiability irritates me.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled Nintendo bashing, already
in progress.

Precisely. It is no big feat. It is supposed to be easy to program.
Considering that the SNES is supposed to be a (ahem) technogically advanced
16-bit machine. You don't see Genesis owners flipping over a game just
because it has no flicker and slowdown.

Just shows you the sad state of SNES games.... just because a game has no
flicker and slowdown, it is considered the best SNES game ever....

As for the SNES bashing, it is easy to do it because the SNES has so many
faults. Can you think of any glaring faults of the Genesis?

Street Fighter II on SNES...too little, too late? (5/2/92)

Street Fighter II Champion Edition is IT. Everyone seems concerned
with learning the new characters, or the new moves/abilities on the old
characters. At my local arcades (Greater Vancouver area has tons of them)
the SF2CE machines are always mobbed and the SF2 machines has two or three
guys at it, usually waiting for CE.

So if this is typical of North America (and judging from the discussions
on alt.games.sf2 I believe it is) perhaps Capcom's Street Fighter II for the
SNES will be greeted with less enthusiasm than the hype would have us think?
Perhaps it's too little, too late? Now if Capcom released an SF2 CE for the
SNES, THEN you'd see some excitement. But as it is, I think (just a guess,
IMHO, no flames) that by the time SF2 arrives in NA for the SNES (boy, all
these abbreviations!) Street Fighter II will be old news. Street Fighter II
Champion Edition will be the game to play. Just like Fighting Streets on the
Turbo CD (a version of Street Fighter) was met with a collective yawn,
so perhaps (PERHAPS...no flames!!) will Street Fighter II for the SNES

At least, we Genesis partisans hope so...heh heh...

THE FUTURE OF THINGS TO COME (2/18/92)

Ladies, Gentlemen, and children(there are a lot out there),

THE HISTORY OF THINGS TO COME

Sometome in the near future(I predict within 2 years) we will see the end of
videogamming as we know it. Companies will fall and in their ashes will lie
the endless number of videogamers desperate for new technology.

Much like the crash of the early 80's, this one will be bigger and more
devestating. Nintendo, Sega, NEC, and Atari will be hit hard. The worst of
these will be Nintendo. With the price dropping on all cartridges as the store
attempt to rid them from their shelves, Nintendo will loose millions of
dollars. They will be the next Atari.

Sega will fall much like Matel(remember the intelevision?). The system will
continue, unlike the nintendo who will be swamped with debts, but it will not
be the same level of gaming that currently exists. In fact, I would expect a
downshift in gaming sales for the Genesis quite soon.

NEC will be dead. There will be nothing left of the company's game
devision. Importation of games might be possible if the PC Engine can survive.

Atari will loose little. It's already small role and hard core users will
keep it alive. In fact I find little to suggest that Atari could die if it
wanted to. I know, I am one of these people.

The US will be bad, but not as bad as Japan. They owe so much money to the
US and they have so little to pay us with. They also have all investments over
here. When Congress passes laws to surpress the import/exprt trade deficits,
then the people of Japan will really have a problem. Japan will go belly up.
All money will keep Japan form becoming a civil war.

Now why do I saw this? I saw it once. The next generation of video games
took the market, Genesis(5200), TG-16(ColecoVision)... It is just a matter of
time. There is nothing anyone can do either.

In the dust a company shall rise again. Perhaps Atari, perhaps someone
else. It WILL be an American company. Japan will have no money to invest
toward this. Who says that you can't tell the future?

There was an article in the Dallas Morning News in 1990 predicting
a similar catastrophe. Of course, nothing has happened yet.

If there is a second crash, it will be a much slower one. In 1982/83
things heated up to such ridiculous levels that there was no
way they could continue, the market just exploded and disintegrated.
This time around, the market will be eaten away by boredom and
apathy.

I bought a Genesis one year ago. And after a flurry of purchases
almost *no* games held my interest. The ones that did certainly
were not worth $50. More and more people are starting to realize
this and are renting games instead. It's not that the games are
bad, just they they are all the same. Modern games are also designed
to be "solved"--paying $50 for a crossword puzzle is awful
steep.

There hasn't been anything to give the industry a much needed shot
in the arm. Then SNES is just the Genesis and TurboGrafx all over
again. Platform games are STILL coming out for the NES (look for
MegaMan IV at a store near you). And all the hype over CD players
is just a distraction--now you can pay hundreds of dollars to have
access to more of the same old boring games, but on CD!

Hello,

It seems that people tend to think Japanese anything is not creative.
How dare you say such a thing!

When you say American games are creative, you refer to American PC
games. Can you name an American `cartridge' game which is creative (not
counting `ports')? I can't even name an American cartridge game, not
counting `ports' and those `classics'. `Porting' is not my definition
of being creative. Of course, considering `classics' creative is
meaningless because there were so much room for improvement back then.
American cartridge games (new games) are not any more creative than
Japanese carts.

Have any of you seen Japanese PC games in Japan? When I visited Japan
a few years ago, I saw millions of computer games for NEC PC System. I
didn't think they were uncreative. Since none of you seem to know too
much about Japanese computer games, there is a chance that Japanes
computer games are more creative than American `real' computer games.

What do I think? I don't know, since I don't know everything. I just
don't want to see too many people making assumptions based on their
limited observations and propaganda. If you think Japan is uncreative
you read USA Today, National Enquirer, and EGM too much.

IST

I lived in Japan for four years. The games in the arcades were pretty sad.
It was like this: R-type, R-type, R-type, undress the woman, mahjong,
R-type, race game, race game, race game (see above for details), race
game, tetris rip-off, tetris rip-off, tetris rip-off, street fighting,
street fighting, street fighting.

For those of you who don't like what I say, I don't care. I lived
there myself. I didn't get my opinions from USA Today or anywhere
else. So I know about Japan. I used to write for a video game mag. I
even got into the Guiness Book (when that was still possible). I spent
all my money on games and won several (big) tournaments. So I also
know about games. IN GENERAL, JAPANESE GAMES ARE NOT VERY CREATIVE.
And just as the first responder points out, these games are often
IDENTICAL. Also, it is almost impossible to find a decent game from
America in Japan (another closed market) so I wound up learning how to
play pinball better (for some reason they let those in). Maybe
Japanese PEOPLE can be creative, but from what I saw Japanese
INSTITUTIONS (corporations like SEGA) don't really let their people's
creative spirit flourish. You come up with a good idea and some
middle-aged manager who hates games makes you do it the way another
company did it or the way you did it last year. Even the original
Japanese poster knows that what I'm saying is more or less true. It's
a shame he won't admit it in public. Just as Americans may have to
face that maybe they're educational system needs to teach basic
sciences better, the Japanese may have to face that their educational
system does not foster creativity very well. If it did, why is Isao
Takeda studying at Carnegie-Mellon instead of Tokyo University? Think
before you flame.

 

[MrCunningham]

Max Payne is out for both the XBOX and the Piece of Shit Station 2,
and look at the difference! The PoS2 version has shitty graphics and
long load times, and the XBOX version has unbelievable graphics and no
load times at all! I'm laughing my ass off at all you PoS2 fanboys
right now! You bought an overhyped, underpowered console and it's
starting to show! Ha ha ha!

By this time next year, the PoS2 and the Gaycube will both be dead,
and Microsoft will have a complete monopoly in the video game market!
All you PoS2 fanboys will have no choice but to buy XBOXES for $500,
because that will be the only way you can play games! I can't wait for
the time when all of you will have to pay $75-100 per game! It'll be
perfect payback for you killing the DC! TAKE IT, PoS2 FANBOYS!

Piece of Shit Station 2...
GayCube...

Oh god, so golden!

I was never a usenet user, but I remember when those phrases were being thrown around different gaming message boards during this period.

"PSX is easy to develop for, but it's capability is limited. That is why PSX
games won't be better than current WipeOut in the future; PSX is already
running out of gas.

On the other hand, Sega and 3rd party developers are only begining to
understand haw to harness the power of Saturn due to its complex
architecture."

you could replace PSX with Xbox 360, and Saturn with PS3 and have the 2006 console wars all over again. The PS3 was all hype before its release, but after the console was release there was a lot of sentiments about the PS3 being harder to develop for but generally a little more powerful.

Heh. How can the X-Box version which runs at 640 x 480 compare to PC's
that can run this game at 1600 x 1200? With in a few months time you
should be able to get PC's running this game up to 2048 x 1536, possibly
with AA enabled.

The resolution wars has begun....

Though sadly, we never did get 2048 x 1536 on PC in 2002, we had to wait a decade for that to (kind of) happen.

It's not just about resolution. It's also about polygon count - something
that consoles are better at.

Angular graphix!



Awesome thread.


.

 

[MrCunningham]

This is still facinating.

I remember when I got my N64 people still called it "ultra" in the streets.

I remember having a door sized Killer Instinct 2 Fulgore poster in my room with the Ultra 64 logo on the bottom corner. I had it in my room the same year that the Nintendo 64 was released.

That poster was a lie in so many ways, Killer Instinct 2 was never released for the N64 and secondly the N64 was never called the Ultra 64. I believe the poster came from Nintendo Power magazine.

CD-Rs didn't exist until 1990, and were not even remotely affordable for years after that. Per Wikipedia:


Once the prices of the recorders and media started approaching mass market prices, then it started becoming a big problem.

I didn't have a CD burner in my PC until 2001-ish. They were expensive up until the early 2000's.

>Does anyone think there will be a virtual reality home entertainment
>system released in the next 10-15 years?

Hmm. . Interestig question. I think something also interesting
would be HDTV gaming. Right now, the highest resolution console
is 640x480. Arcade games are going up to 800x600. But imagine
3000x1000 crystal clear images.

Seeing how resolution seems to be doubling (horizontal resolution)
every generation, and each generation is about 6 years.
I suppose in about 6 more years, we'll have HDTV quality?
Then another 6 more doubling that (cause it needs to create
two images, one for each eye). So year 2009 is my projection.
I'll be 33 by then. Scary thought.

> If so, what do you think it
>will be like? Who do you think will release it? etc, etc...

Maybe a company we haven't even ever heard of? That would be cool.

Whatever it will be... virtual headsets, 3D TV... it will be amazing.

Just think about what videogames were 15 years ago. ATARI's VCS 2600 was
out
and considered the best home entertainment system. Oh boy.

Now compare those early games with today's top titles on any platform, e.g.
3Dfx-Quake on the PC, WipeOut XL on the Playstation or Mario World 64 on
the Nintendo.

I can't even imagine what they (whoever that might be) will bestow on us in
the next decade or two.
No one could have imagined what games would look like today back in 1982.

Some of these predictions weren't too far off to be honest. I mean these messages were written in 1997, six years later would be 2003. HDTV's were available then, but the first HD consoles were released in 2005. Resolutions didn't really double for the PS4 and Xbox One. But he was kind of right about 3DTV's and VR headsets.. One of the better future predictions posted here.


Whoops, this was meant to be an edit to my previous post.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

I remember having a door sized Killer Instinct 2 Fulgore poster in my room with the Ultra 64 logo on the bottom corner. I had it in my room the same year that the Nintendo 64 was released.

That poster was a lie in so many ways, Killer Instinct 2 was never released for the N64 and secondly the N64 was never called the Ultra 64. I believe the poster came from Nintendo Power magazine.

Oh, so you're upset about Nintendo being misleading about the Ultra 64. Well!!!


Boycott Nintendo!! (9/18/94)

Yes, sickening isn't it? I wouldn't mind it so much if they didn't
intentionally try to make it look like a real article. Who are they trying to
fool? This really deepens my hatred for Nintendo... I guess when companies
become desperate, they'll try anything.

As for more Nintendo BS, check out the latest Game Fan. In the Other Stuff
section it says that the arcade versions of Killer Instinct and Cruisin USA
are not even running on the actual U64 hardware! In the article it clearly
states:"The Ultra hardware will not be finished until well after KI's
release. Software that uses the entire Ultra 64 chipset will not surface
until deep into 1995." So what the %!@#! was all that hype about KI and Crusin
USA being U64 games? How can they be when they're not even running on U64
hardware?? At the Summer CES Nintendo showcased those 2 games as being the
first games developed on the U64. And now we find out that it was all BS!!!!

The U64 is obviously still and IMHO will always be vaporware! Just think
about it, no other developer besides Midway is saying that they are making
U64 games. No Japanese developers have announced anything, zilch. This is a
sign that this whole U64 thing is just another BS-vaporware-hype campaign
crafted by Nintendo of AMERICA, who are desperate to catch up to Sega in the
US market. I think this U64 BS was solely aimed at the US market, since
Nintendo has nothing to worry about over there in Japan.

And this deal about U64 games being cartridge based... do you actually think
that it's because Nintendo feels that CD games are too slow??! Get real! It's
because Nintendo can make MUCH more money from making carts. They make money
from carts becasue anyone who wants to make a Nintendo game HAS to buy the
carts from Nintendo themselves. So all 3rd party companies would have to pay
exorbitant prices for those >100 meg U64 carts from Nintendo.

I mean just think about this a bit... a company that prints intentionally
deceiving ads, that retracted what they said a year ago about "THERE WILL BE
NO BLOOD IN NINTENDO GAMES", decides to stick to more expensive and less
efficient cartridge games just out of greed....
... would it be AT ALL surprising to find out that
they would also hype non-existant hardware just to discourage you from buying
their competitor's products??

Anyway, that U64 news really pissed me off. I never thought a company could
sink so low. Such a company shouldn't be allowed to exist.. much less prosper.
We should boycott Nintendo and all their products. I don't care how good
their games are. In the long run all gamers and the whole industry will suffer
because of their unscrupulous business practices.

Unbelievable. Yes, Sega made a misleading "Blast Processing" tv ad. We
know about it, and we agree that it's wrong. It's also about the only
time that Sega tried to mislead gamers.
Nintendo, however, have run their business around deliberately misleading
us. And that's worse. Much worse.
During Nintendo's 8-bit days, they lied about any third party product they
weren't making money on, to discourage us from buying it. When 16-bit
came out, they lied to cover up the inferiority of 8-bit, and they lied to
play down the power of 16-bit. Since then, they released many pieces of
vaporware. Since then, they've deliberately tried to mislead us when
discussing CD-ROM technology. Today, we're doubting them because of their
extremely fantastic claims of the still invisible Ultra-64 home unit.
Today, they're releasing Genesis-bashing ads with enough BS to fertilize a
small state.
Yet whenever you mention any of this to a Nintendo fan, their stock
response is "but Sega had that Blast Processing ad".
One or two lies is bad. Chronic, pathological lying is worse. Not being
able to tell the difference is pathetic.

Oh geez i would think its fair enough to say both companies have both
their fair share of lies and BS. What happened to the Sega VR Helmet for
starters? Sega Modem? Sega Ram Cart? To say Sega hasn't had their fair
share of vaporware and lies is outrageous. Sega has bashed Nintendo so
many times, but Nintendo starts to, its hurting poor innocent Sega.
Bullshit. /s

>The comparison showed Mario vs Sonic and a sales rep trying to sell the
>SNES and the buyer kept going to sega. The games ad was an early ad when
>the snes first came out, they had hardly started and sega had been out
>for awhile and they slammed on the SNES having very few games. Thats pure
>BS concerning the system is new and concerning how many sega had when
>they released their system. The first nintendo article ad had a lot of
>points in there that were true. In fact almost the whole thing was pretty
>much true. Nintendo never claimed 8 bit equaled 16 bit. Nintendo did have
>a color game boy prototype. Nintendo supposedly had partial equipment
>ready for their CD-ROM. This can keep going both ways. For every excuse
>Sega has, Nintendo has one for their fault and vice versa.

Marty, are you actually THAT blinded by Nintendo propaganda?
The Sega/SNES ad you mentioned contained no lies: Sega stating that the SNES
had no games was an unambiguous fact. No BS about it. It isn't inventing
a CD player, a color Gameboy, or making up false statistics about the
competition. You say Nintendo "supposedly" had a CD prototype - can
you prove this? I can prove the SNES had fewer games than Sega at the time
of the SNES release. When one can cite factual evidence against the
competition, then it is completely fair to make it public in
advertising. What IS unfair is inventing ahrdware or lying about the
COMPETITION to try and reduce sales of the competition, especially when
you aren't up to par. BTW, I'd like to see some proof of a Color Game Boy
prototype. ANd yes, Nintendo stated unequivocally several times around and
after the Genesis release that the NES could perform just as well as the Genny, even though everybody knew it was utter BS.

Nintendo is not a company I admire. WHile I think the SNES is an OK machine, I do not exalt their business practices from mere association with a game
system I like as you evidently do, Mr. Chinn.

I think another point to make here is the fact that even considering
the fact that Sega didn't release a couple items, we at least have tangible
evidence that they existed. Nintendo never had a stable CD partner, nor CD
specs, they were always shifting. It seems that the MAIN difference between
Sega not releasing something, and Nintendo spewing vaporware is that Sega is not
doing it to *counter* Nintendo. Nintendo didn't have a VR system, didn't have
a modem, and don't have a reason to have a ram cart, thus when Sega announced
those items, they were purely for the purposes of adding functionality to their
user base. Nintendo on the other hand seems to announce items that are better
than the oppositions, at a cheaper price, about a few days after the competition
releases or announces its item. And the same thing can be said about the ads.
Sega had a marketing coup when they came up with their now trademark ads.
True Sega rips on Nintendo in their ads, but it is not unusual for competitors
to poke fun at each other in advertisements. What is wrong is not being able
to recognize it as an ad. The Sega commercials, and the sega printed ads
are *clearly* distinguishable, you can automatically tell when something is a
Sega commercial, or if it has been modeled after Sega's commercials. (read
Jaguar commercial) Nintendo, has resorted to fooling, or trying to, fool
people. Those ad-articles that Nintendo puts out are aimed at the younger
crowd, the ones that won't necessarily notice it is an ad, the ones that are
still *really* inpressionable. That (all of what I have just said) is what
I consider poor business ethics. That is why I don't like Nintendo as a
corporation. I like their SNES just fine, I just don't like the way they
conduct their business affairs.

Part 2

>Also, I am wondering how Jaguar and 3DO owners will feel about Nintendo's
>attacks on their systems. They claim in the ad that Donkey Kong Country is
>better than Jag and 3DO games. This is a direct quote from the ad: " Jaguar
>may have more processing speed, but DK Country on Super NES graphically
>outperforms Jag games released so far. Why? Because programming is more
>important than power." Gee, how can you argue against such a thoughtful
>analysis?? Also "3DO offers the vast memory potential of CDROM, but that
>means video games are subject to frequent, awkward access pauses. For the
>price of the system you'd expect to be able to buy game as good as DKC. Think
>again."

What is interesting here is that one of the big players (Nintendo) is now
recognizing Jaguar and 3DO. They would not spend time attacking these
systems unless they considered them a threat.

Hmm... could it be possible that Nintendo is *worried*?

They sure should be worried. I don't care how brainwashed these
little kiddies are, if they don't come out with their Ultra 64 by the the
MIDDLE of next year, they're going to be suffering. Hell, by the end of
next year (I think that's their current Ultra 64 release date), 3DO will
have 200+ titles with the M2 out (hopefully)! I hope they have a decent
secret plan because the Ultra 64 sounds like a joke. Are they still
claiming it is a cartriage-based system? When are people going to figure
it out? You CANNOT make modern games on a cart. without the game costing
>$100 ?!? It seems so simple to me.

I loved the statement they made about how the Jaguar isn't selling well
and thats why there are so few games. Yeah right. Total BS. Its called
time for the developers to get used to the system. The games are coming.
They even compared DKC to Cybermorph. Ok lets see, compare a game
developed with all the knowledge that comes after a system has been out
for years, against the first game for the Jag ( a new system). hhmm, not a
very fair comparison.

Looks like they are stacking DKC against every system. DKC does look good,
I was even thinking of getting an SNES to play it (and Speed Racer) when
it comes out, but this infuriating ad that bashes every other system,is
making me think twice.

I know what you mean. Just the other day I wanted to play a game which
involved a short, chubby Italian plumber running around, searching for
animal costumes to wear. And try as I might, I just couldn't find a game
like that for my Genesis. And this morning, when I wanted my cartridge to
be plugged into a grey and purple console instead of a black one, my SNES
won out again.
As you can guess, quality titles, the enjoyment a video game offers, and
upgradability to CD-ROM and 32-bit means absolutely nothing if meaningless
propaganda isn't included in the package. If I did care about gameplay, I
might actually go through the trouble of plugging a unit in and playing
some of the games. But ignorance is bliss, and I can tell that you must
be really happy.

 

[SeventhSon]

And this deal about U64 games being cartridge based... do you actually think
that it's because Nintendo feels that CD games are too slow??! Get real! It's
because Nintendo can make MUCH more money from making carts. They make money
from carts becasue anyone who wants to make a Nintendo game HAS to buy the
carts from Nintendo themselves. So all 3rd party companies would have to pay
exorbitant prices for those >100 meg U64 carts from Nintendo.​

Surprisingly accurate take on the matter for 1994.

 

[Tripon]

Man, I'm going to find archives from 1998 when OoT and Pokemon came out. Minds must have exploded.

 

[pikablu]

Man, I'm going to find archives from 1998 when OoT and Pokemon came out. Minds must have exploded.

Oh man that would be interesting.

Read through all the 3DO posts. Its interesting to see how many people were defending that system.

 

[PandaPedinte]

Wow, I'm reading some of these posts and they all looks like the discussions we have nowadays, it's scary.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Wow, I'm reading some of these posts and they all looks like the discussions we have nowadays, it's scary.

The more things change...

 

[nullset2]

"That which has been is what will be,
That which is done is what will be done,
And there is nothing new under the sun.

Is there anything of which it may be said,
“See, this is new”?
It has already been in ancient times before us.

There is no remembrance of former things,
Nor will there be any remembrance of things that are to come
By those who will come after."

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Human history is penned in the blood spilled by tragedy. Wars, disaster, crimes, injustices.

But none you'll read about in the so-called history books can measure up to the most infamous of all.


Ladies and gentlemen. It is March of 1996. GameFan has reviewed Street Fighter Alpha for the Sega Saturn. It has a slightly lower score than the PlayStation version.

Why?


Blue. Shadows.

I know, I'm slow, but I finally picked up the Gamefan issue with the Soul
Edge cover story. I must say I was very very disappointed in this
issue. Mainly due to the completely erroneous SFA article presented
therein.

First, the SFA review. I'm sure even the staunchest PSX supporters will
agree that the Saturn SFA review was highly error-laden and written to
boost the PSX version as much as possible. I don't bear too many
grudges, but other than access time which is better on the saturn, and a
slight difference in sound samlpes in the PSX's favor, there are no
differences. Had the Gamefan staff actually played the game for more
than 5 minutes, they would have noticed that the Saturn SFA defaults to
remix mode when it is turned on, and thus the shadows take on a more
graded tint.

The reason this is so heinous is because this was cited as their reason
for giving the Saturn version lower marks than the Playstation one. They
chose to rank the game lower based upon a difference which only exists if
you don't actually explore the game for more than a 5 minute pass
through. Do they mention the music quality at all? No. Do they mention
that the intro contains characters other than Ryu? No. Do they mention
the great control? Why yes they do! But do they rate the game upon it's
playability and presentation first? No. They base their lower marks on
the tint in some shadows! Shadows which are user defineable even!

No way in hell does the Saturn version of SFA deserve lower marks than the
PSX one, especially not when they are based upon a small graphical
difference which can be controlled. I could have lived if it was a
gameplay difference, or if there were some other true difference, but if
this review doesn't show the amount of time Gamefan actually puts into
their reviews, then I don't know what does.

Heck, if I were to mention a graphical difference, I would have taken into
account the non-Ryu-only intro, or the better Now Loading font on PSX,
but even I noticed that the shadows were user-definable in my first
minutes of playing. It's just shoddy reviewing on Gamefan's part, in a
review obviously written to downplay the saturn port while giving kudos
to the PSX port. Read their glowing PSX SFA review and see how they
downplay access time and the stock PSX pad.

First it was their interesting Ace Combat review, and before that their
calling of the Jaguar the ultimate system (based upon Trevor McFur,
muahahaha), and now it's their SFA review which was based upon what had
to have been 5 minutes of playtime.

Is the entire staff of Gamefan clueless? Watch, when Darkstalkers on PSX
comes out they will say thing like "this is better than Night Warriors",
"I liked this better than Vampire Hunters", "Who needs Night Warriors?" ,
etc... and the review will be full of interesting tidbits, which will
highlight the PSX version as being better since they will have played the
Saturn one for 5 minutes before writing the review.

Yes, I own a Saturn, and yes, I know the PSX has some great games, but I
don't enjoy it when a magazine prints entirely false information to the
benefit of another machine. If they had said such tripe about the PSX
version ("the shadows are wrong") I would still be annoyed.

The fact is, the shadows aren't wrong, the sound effects while different
aren't THAT different, and 99% of people won't even notice the
difference, unless their initials are M.C. or they work for Gamefan.
Loadtime is better on the Saturn, other than SFX and loadtime their are
no other differences, and anyone who asserts such should hand me their
bong now because I want some.

I am simply dismayed with Lamefan... why do I buy this shit? Why do we
all keep this piece of trash in business?

Sigh,

Frank

Joe Ottoson
3/19/96
In article <[email protected]>, Craig Yarbrough
<[email protected]> wrote:


> Unbelievable. You Saturn guys whine so much about the magazines ragging
>SFA for Saturn.

And you PSx guys refuse to give the Saturn any credit at all. The fact
that Xmen on PSx still doesn't exist must really make you nervous (have to
admit the Saturn can do what the PSx can't)

Has it ever occurred to you that the PSX version could be
> BETTER? That the load time, which is bearable on both systems, doesn't
> outweigh the better aspects of the PSX version? And don't give me this crap

PSx's version isn't better. Sorry to break it to you, but the majority has
already said other than the loading times, the two games are equal.

> about Capcom rigging Saturn SFA to make the PSX look better. Capcom is in
> the business of selling games, not systems, and they wouldn't be porting
> X-Men and DS2 for Saturn if they were working for Sony's interests. This
> whole "bias" thing is pathetic and rediculous.
>

Rating lower for colored shadows is ok? It wouldn't get half the response
the reviews did if they would've changed the music back to origional, and
gotten back the blue shadows.

> Siv

It's not about preference, it's about mags doing a half assed job
reviewing the Saturn version.

Till we meet again...

Whatever the reason(s) these magazines wrote what they did is debatable.
What isn't debatable is which version is better. Both versions are
excellent translations from the arcade. However, on all accounts except
sound, the Saturn version is superior. Note: I am talking mild
differences, nothing to get too excited about either way. However, the
main point is that the Playstation version is not better than the Saturn
version.

Basically, you can't go wrong with either version. If you have the luxury
of owning both systems, the Saturn version is the way to go.

Please god someone end my suffering! This argument has got to stop
someday! I don't care what the magazines say anymore and I don't think
anyone else cares either. The issue is pretty dead. In fact it died
last month. Every magazine pretty much said that the PSX version of
SFA was better than the Saturn version. I've played both and I don't
see a difference. But I don't care anyway. It's a freakin' game! Get
over it!

Bottom line is: If you don't like what they write don't by the
magazine.

Now please people let's move on.

The problem that most people have had with Game Fan's review of Alpha
for the Saturn is NOT that they gave the Saturn version a lower score,
but that their complaints were way off. The biggest complaint that GF
had with the Saturn SF Alpha was that the Super Shadows were not blue,
yet if the music was set to original, the Shadows were blue. Obviously,
they did not spend enough time on the game to review it.

Another problem that the us "Saturn Guys" had a problem with is why did
all of the mags review Alpha for the PS a month earlier yet the Saturn
version came out first.

The truth is this "bias" thing is not ridiculous, it is human nature to
have personal preferences, and hence "biases", but it is fair for the
public to expect Magazines to be able to put aside their biases and give
fair and honest reviews.

Frank, the poster before you had some good points though. Although pro
magazines (well... "pro" offer info on released games, they are
essentially a pool of opinions, except for the recent EGM in-depth
reviews, which seem to be much more informative and objective! (Way to
go!) But Gamefan's recent review of the Saturn's SFA was poorly done, in
that Rox had weak reasons to give the game such "bad ratings".

On the other hand, the game still got over 90/100, which means its still
a good game. Maybe everyone out here on the 'net feels that it deserves
much higher, which is fine. But he _is_ entitled to his opinion. I just
wish, like everyone else I suppose, that he had a better reasons other
than .... <<and I'm paraphrasing below>>

"... the sounds sound tinny ..." -- um... turn up your TV, Rox!!
"... the shadows aren't blue ..." -- oooo... end of the world, Rox!!!
"... I'm a purist ..." -- then buy an SFA machine, Rox!

The last reason especially is bad. The game should of been based on its
own merits and weaknesses, but minor details. It is more than obvious
that SFA on both versions are comparable, with minor differences, aside
for the loading time. I own both versions! (can't get enough! ... and I
found copies cheap. Anyways... let's hope that DHGF straightens up
somewhat. (but I won't hold my breath on that... so I guess I'll just
have to skip over Rox's articles... wouldn't be the first time.

I bought the Saturn SFA the first day it came out and, oh dear!, noticed
the shadows right away. For some reason, I thought it was actually
pretty cool, along with the awesome play control, perfect music,
incredible intro, and (best of all), the way-too-short-for-it's-own-good
loading time. But did Rox notice these things the same way you, I, and
just about everyone else out there with this game did? Uh, nope!

I don't buy DHGF anymore; I just read it at Tower Books every once in a
while. Kind of like a porno mag; you'll sit there and read it, all
goo-goo eyed, but you're far too embarassed to actually take it to the
counter =)

What better aspects? It's the exact friggin game! It looks the same,
it plays the same, and yes, it basically sounds the same. Maybe that
the PSX version has better sound, but not to the point where the exact
same game is rated 10 points lower.

The only pathetic and "rediculous" (learn to spell) thing here is you, Siv.
Why can't loser PSX freaks like you admit that the two games are essentially
equal? Both games have merits that the other doesn't have. In no way does
that mean the PSX game is superior or that the Saturn game is superior. Crawl
back into your hole--nobody missed you while you were away.

Why should he? Thats why I hate Saturn Owners and VF2 players. You
all act like if someone does not like your system or game they must
be crazy. People who enjoy TK2 and SE keep to themselves and don't
trash other games, but VFers constantaly trash other games. I feel the
reason that they trash games like TK2 is becasue TK2 is more popular
in american arcades becasue it has the cool multis and devestating
hits while VF2 is dull to play and watch. Thats the problem with VF.
It trys to be a fighting simulator, but most simulation games are
boring as Hell and so is VF2.

It's not just the fact that they didn't bother checking these options
(which is deplorable to start with), it's that they based the lower score
on an UTTERLY ****TRIVIAL**** aspect of the game. Purist?!? Shadows?!?
What?!?

While I stood reading Rox's review, I was astonished to learn that such
phenomenal quantities of stupidity could be packed into so few words.

Like everyone has previously stated, why was so much of the review spent
on the shadows? Why not mention that the graphics are *exactly* the same?
Or that the control is *exactly* the same? Or that the sounds are
*nearly* identical? Or that the intro and attract screen is arcade
*perfect*? Or even that these shadows could be *changed* from original to
remixed?? (Apparently NOT **ONE** of GF's reviewers noticed this option
-- one reviewer even claimed that this inaccuracy stemmed from the
"Saturn's inability to do transparencies. Dorks.)

>No way in hell does the Saturn version of SFA deserve lower marks than the
>PSX one, especially not when they are based upon a small graphical
>difference which can be controlled. I could have lived if it was a
>gameplay difference, or if there were some other true difference, but if
>this review doesn't show the amount of time Gamefan actually puts into
>their reviews, then I don't know what does.

Exactly. Each reviewer probably spent no more than 10 minutes a piece
playing the game - and it shows. I wonder if they realize that they carry
no credibility on the net. The only people who believe what they say is
the 7-9 year old contingent of gamers.

>Heck, if I were to mention a graphical difference, I would have taken into
>account the non-Ryu-only intro, or the better Now Loading font on PSX,
>but even I noticed that the shadows were user-definable in my first
>minutes of playing. It's just shoddy reviewing on Gamefan's part, in a
>review obviously written to downplay the saturn port while giving kudos
>to the PSX port. Read their glowing PSX SFA review and see how they
>downplay access time and the stock PSX pad.

You know, if Sony paid GF (Rox in particular), it couldn't have been more
obvious. Rox went out of his way to criticize the Saturn version, and I
can't imagine who would agree with Rox's idiotic reasons (Siv,
perhaps...). The only reviewer I can partially stand is E.Storm. He
seems to justify the low score he gives SS-SFA based more on the _overall_
weakness of SFA in general. I have a feeling if he reviewed the PSX
version, it would have recieved a similarly low score.

The biggest complaint that Monkey Boy had of the Saturn version was the
"blue shadows", and he stated this was some sort of trevesty because he
was an "arcade purist". But if he was such a purist, how come he never
set the music to original, which would have restored the shadows to their
proper hue?
And if the slight difference in sound is big enough to mention when
talking about the Saturn version, how come the equal difference in
graphics wasn't worth mentioning when discussing the PlayStation version?
The PlayStation version had no difference in shadows, slightly better
sound, a slightly inferior pallette, and much longer loading times, so why
such the difference in review scores by Monkey Boy himself?
No one here is blaming Capcom for the review scores from what I've seen.
So if you want to present facts for your side Siv, do so. And remember
that I will do more to argue them than call them "rediculous".

Of course it has occurred to us, but it has turned out not to be true.
Almost every person with both systems who has tried both versions has
ended up returning the PSX version and keeping the Saturn one. The major
complaint about GameFan is that their criticism of the Saturn version is
wrong. The main reason they give for scoring the PSX version higher is the
different shading of the SC shadows. They apparently failed to notice that
you get the original shadows when you play the game in the original music
mode. That is careless reviewing. The blunder is compounded by the fact
that several of the pictures in the article depict the original shadows.

:That the load time, which is bearable on both systems, doesn't
utweigh the better aspects of the PSX version?

What better aspects? The consensus of people who have tried both versions
is that the Saturn version has brighter colors, a sharper picture, and
that the PSX version has slightly better sound (that is the *only* better
aspect of the PSX version). In virtually every case, the load time has
been cited as the decisive factor, which has led people with both systems
to return the PSX version and keep the Saturn one.

Tekken players don't ever say a word hmm? ;-P The problem with Tekken is
any idiot can hit the buttons and win almost as reliably as someone who's
been playing for months. MK3 is popular in arcades too, but it doesn't
make it a good game. IMO, you've never played VF2. I've actually played
Tekken2. VF2 has much more going for it.

PS..
It's replies like yours that only encourage VF players to ignore the
lesser Tekken series.

>If you wait I'll get my hanky, so you can blow you nose and wipe away
>your tears. Both versions got great ratings in that mag. The Saturn
>ver. got a 98, 95, 90. Rox even said it plays better on the Saturn
>because of the pad. what's all the bitching about????????

I think that many are dismayed that an indentical game on two systems
with minor differences that cancel each other out receive different
scores, seemingly because of the system that each version is on. One
version receives perfect 100's, indicating a miracle of programming
that induces gaming nirvana, while the other equally good version
receives notably (and unjustifiably) lower scores. I have played both
versions and believe that the Saturn SFA scores should stay approx.
the same but the PSX scores should have been lower to match reality.

:Exactly. Each reviewer probably spent no more than 10 minutes a piece
laying the game - and it shows. I wonder if they realize that they carry
:no credibility on the net.

From this, I deduce that you own a PS, but not a Saturn. People who
actually own both systems seem to be nearly unanimous in preferring the
Saturn version, due to its faster loading times and preservation of the
original attract sequence. I'm not sure of what "flaws" you are referring
to. Aside from the difference in attract mode and loading time, the only
other confirmed differences are: clearer picture on the Saturn, brighter
colors on the Saturn (are these "flaws?"), slightly different shading of
SC shadows in the "remix," but not the "arcade" mode, and a slight
difference in sound (people are divided as to which sounds better; most
seem to think the PSX has the edge, but some prefer the Saturn).

But I agree that both versions are awesome, and the subtle differences
between them do not constitute a basis for prefering the Saturn over the
PSX or vice-versa.

it's not. there was the issue about super move shadows being the
wrong color in the saturn version, but it was found that if you change
the music back to the original score the shadows go back to the correct
color. so what it comes down to is this:

psx- longer loading time, but the sounds are clearer.

saturn- sounds aren't as clear, but loading time is dramatically
reduced.

also, i think the general concensus is that the saturn controller
is better for this type of game, but that's personal opinion. aside
from these small differences, both versions are identical. so getting
back to original point, yes, gamefan's review of saturn sfa was
ridiculous. they took an arcade-perfect game and wasted two pages
whining about how the game isn't arcade perfect because the super combo
shadows aren't the same color. the real funny thing is that the shadow
colors aren't even an issue any more! it seems ludicrous to me that
the saturn version of the game would be reviewed with a damn microscope
but a 13-second load time before each fight is seemingly forgotten in
the psx review.

all i can say is, by the time the psx version is finished loading, my
super meter is already charged in the saturn version

No point trying to use logic or intelligent discussion with some of these
arrogant VF'fers. I don't know how they ignore the fact that Tekken 2 has
more characters, more variety, more moves, more classes of moves e.t.c.
e.t.c. to come up with the conclusion that VF 2 is more complex? Play what
you like and let the religious zealots go to hell.

Although people around here sometimes get excited about small differences
in ratings, remember that reviews are not intended to provide ammunition
for the system wars, but to help people, few of whom have both systems,
decide which games to buy or rent. Basically, a difference in score of
5-10% points is pretty much meaningless.

: Tekke2/Arcade *IS* Tekken2/PSX


Actually I read a statement from someone who had a copy of the Japanese
version that the light sourcing is better in the PS version than the
arcade. More options, more modes, and endings for EVERY character should
make the PS version of Tekken 2 BETTER than the arcade. Lets see the
Saturn do that.

Perhaps there are more classes, but more moves? Anyway, it's more than
that. VF2 characters move more smoothly, with higher resolution. All
of the characters' moves are more distinct. If you use the Game Shark
code to switch the graphics for the characters, you can always tell
who's who, not so easy with Tekken.

>Spoken like someone who's truly played the game. You can't always tell
>who's who in Tekken? Try playing the game and learning the characters.
>If 24 characters are too many for you to learn to distinguish then you
>don't have a very large attention span. And as far as Virtua fighter
>moving more smoothly, Hmmmm...lets see, Virtua Fighter 2 = 60fps Tekken
>and Tekken 2 = 60 fps Looks about equal to me. In fact, to my eye Tekken
>2 moves a lot less jerky in the actual gameplay, but that's all pretty
>subjective isn't it? WE see what we wanna see.

Sorry, VF2 = 60fps, Tekken 2 = 30 fps. Tekken 2 has only half the
frame rate that VF2 has, and side by side, VF2 is clearly smoother. As
for 24 distinguished characters, that is completely wrong. Most of the
characters in the game share the exact same moves as three to four other
characters, making only about 11 or 12 distinguished characters.

The rest of the thread is hundreds of posts for like two weeks about Virtua Fighter 2 vs. Tekken 2.


And the worst part? The cheeky bastard Nick Rox had the gall to laugh about it.

Hi,

I read in the new EGM that a version of SFA is coming out for the SNES.
Does anyone know of a site that has a picture of this game on it?

Thanks,
Hacker

Capcom has just changed the name from "Super Street Fighter Zero" to
Street Fighter Zero 2! I can't bear to think what Alpha 2 will look
like on a SNES. Blue super shadows? (<-amusing joke) How about NO
shadows! Too many sprites!

Nick Rox
GameFan Magazine

But let me ask you, would you rate the game lower because of a lack of
shadows on supers? What if the gameplay is arcade perfect, but the
shadows on the supers are missing? Will you give the game a lower rating
because of this?

Oh come on!! I hope you read this newsgroup often. Many of us
stopped buying Gamefan because of those reviews about the Saturn version
of SFA.

The Saturn version of SFA was no doubt better than the
playstation. I thought the shadows were one of the better things because
they had color in them and weren't just blue, dull shadows.

Nick Rox, you piece of garbage. How dare you.


For some... the soul still burns...

 

[Tripon]

Human history is penned in the blood spilled by tragedy. Wars, disaster, crimes, injustices.

But none you'll read about in the so-called history books can measure up to the most infamous of all.


Ladies and gentlemen. It is March of 1996. GameFan has reviewed Street Fighter Alpha for the Sega Saturn. It has a slightly lower score than the PlayStation version.

Why?


Blue. Shadows.
























The rest of the thread is hundreds of posts for like two weeks about Virtua Fighter 2 vs. Tekken 2.


And the worst part? The cheeky bastard Nick Rox had the gall to laugh about it.

Nick Rox, you piece of garbage. How dare you.


For some... the soul still burns...

Heh. I remember reading EGM that pretty much announced that all 2D fighters were better on the Saturn over the PS1.

 

[MrCunningham]

Nick Rox, you piece of garbage. How dare you.


For some... the soul still burns...

Oh man, blue shadow gate...I still have all those issues with the blue shadow controversy stashed away somewhere.

On a side note, KLee (KLeegamefan, that guy with the green BG in his avatar) still posts on NeoGaf, I also think that Nick Rox has an account here too, but it is not very active.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

i can't believe that people would get so upset about a 5% difference in score over a minor issue that may be reviewer error

seems like it could never happen today

 

[IrishNinja]

>> while i for one appreciate what EmCee is trying to do here, Blue Shadowgate is simply not on the level of 1080p > 720p, much less DDR 5 > 3. Does he honestly think, when future generations mindlink & stumble upon this ongoing controversy, they'll see it bearing the same weight? I THINK NOT.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

~IrishNinja
"He's a wild and crazy guy!" - EatChildren

 

[Freshmaker]

>> while i for one appreciate what EmCee is trying to do here, Blue Shadowgate is simply not on the level of 1080p > 720p, much less DDR 5 > 3. Does he honestly think, when future generations mindlink & stumble upon this ongoing controversy, they'll see it bearing the same weight? I THINK NOT.

Outright bias does tend to stick out.

 

[IrishNinja]

for real though, i gotta dig through my gamefans tomorrow...i could swear they had at least one diehard saturn fan in the mix, i just forget who it was.
it's funny how back then, you'd feel things were more balanced just by having fanboys/defense force leaders from every sect represented (especially if your lead was a jaguar one, haha)....my how far we've come since then

 

[TechnicPuppet]

Some of this stuff is hilarious as I am sure current discussions will be in years to come.

 

[N4Us]

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.video.sega/Rxgk16l7b2o/GOAOIQSLOlsJ

We, The forthright Mario Monks, have just finished an extensive
playtesting of The PSX&#146;s only hope of having a good game - Crash
Bandicoot. Crash has failed miserably. The game has many problems, and
being the unbiased monks that we are, we present Intelligent Gamer who
sums up the problems with Crash best in Issue 5 p. 58:

"...The odd camera angle, however, often makes Crash more difficult
than it needs to be;..."

"...The ability to &#145;kill&#146; power-ups and items is a bothersome
feature given a number of the game&#146;s situations..."

"...the ability to save only at the end of the bonus levels would be
fine if they didn&#146;t become increasingly difficult to survive..."

"...every handful of levels is punctuated with an enormously easy
and unoriginal boss..."

As you can plainly see, The Mario Monks point of view has been
proven 100% correct by an industry publication. The review goes on to
state items such as; "scrolling can become confusing at times",
"lackluster music", and "extremely generic platform gameplay". These are
all flaws we knew would occur, as the SONY brand name ensures poor game
quality. You all didn&#146;t actually expect Crap Bandicoot to be good enough
to challenge the greatest game ever created. It was made by Naughty "we
hope you haven&#146;t seen Way of the Warrior" Dog for Mario&#146;s sake.
We have also been witness to a lot of whining from you 32-bit
heathens about how much 32-bit wastes of plastic "games" have to have 600+
megabytes of storage. For what we ask? "Lackluster" music. If thats what
CDs are used for then you can have&#146;em! The ONLY medium for real games is
the cart format. Crash proves that.
But, the most fascinating aspect of this review is the statement;
"Crash&#146;s flaws pretty much end at the GAMEPLAY..." Once again we are
right. It is obvious that there will never be a good 32-bit title because
all of you 32-bit corpses have no clue on what makes a good game. Let us
state it for you in one simple word: GAMEPLAY. Something that Crap
Bandicoot clearly lacks. And something the greatest game ever created has
revolutionized. So, as we all enter a new dawn of video gaming, we have
one clear leader, our messiah Mario. He is the only one who will be able
to part the waters of this 32-bit pixely fog-covered polygon FMV crap and
lead us to the promised land; the land of Nintendo64 and true gameplay. It
is difficult being the guardians of higher video game culture. May Mario
bless you all on Sept. 29!

The Mario Monks

"Mario64 made Crash look like a barrel of sh*t!" - Drago

 

[IrishNinja]

"the guardians of higher video game culture"...boy, that one is just timeless.

Spoiler

i recall them being released close to each other, but yeah, Cash was not looking favorable when compared to Mario 64

 

[eyeball_kid]

I am feeling better now...but please DONT stop sending flames!
Democracy is breaking barriers! DONT let anyone intimate you
from expressing your opinions! ...Just let the chest be empty...

Anonymous Usenet Poster for President 2016!

Reading those pro-3DO posts was odd, as I worked at a Software Etc. during that time and everyone there knew that system was DOA. There was only one person who came in to buy 3DO games, and it was this richie rich kid straight outta Silver Spoons every time.

 

[MrCunningham]

"the guardians of higher video game culture"...boy, that one is just timeless.

Spoiler

i recall them being released close to each other, but yeah, Cash was not looking favorable when compared to Mario 64

In someways you could equate Crap Bandicoot to Donkey Kong Country, Visually it was an amazing looking game for its day, but there's always debate on whether or not it is a good platformer.

This quote made me chuckle:

"So, as we all enter a new dawn of video gaming, we have
one clear leader, our messiah Mario. He is the only one who will be able
to part the waters of this 32-bit pixely fog-covered polygon FMV crap and
lead us to the promised land; the land of Nintendo64 and true gameplay:

Pixalated it may not have been, but the N64 was one of the biggest offenders of foggy game environments.

>> while i for one appreciate what EmCee is trying to do here, Blue Shadowgate is simply not on the level of 1080p > 720p, much less DDR 5 > 3. Does he honestly think, when future generations mindlink & stumble upon this ongoing controversy, they'll see it bearing the same weight? I THINK NOT.

Of course it will never be 720 gate. But it was just one of those things that was hilariously overblown for its day. But GameFan magazine was like that though, that was part of its charm. Racist placeholder text, reviewers using multiple persona's to boost review scores, editors dropping acid before writing reviews. It was like the punk rock of game publications.


-Cheers,



Mr. C.

___________________________________________________________________

"Lady, I'm afraid I'm gonna have to ask you to leave the store" -ASH, HOUSEWARES

 

[Mael]

>When I was a teenager, I was a video game addict on machines like the
>Atari 2600 and Intellivision. Even though the games on both machines
>were woefully primitive by today's standards, the selection of games
>was pretty varied. You could get shoot-em-ups, maze games, sports
>games, action/strategy games (Intellivision Sea Battle is probably the
>best example of this type), pure strategy games like checkers/chess,
>role-playing games, and original games based on far-out ideas, such as
>Qix. I also owned an Atari 800, which played several games that were
>showcases of creativity and good game design, Archon, M.U.L.E.,
>Pinball Construction Set, Rescue on Fractalus, and Ballblazer are just
>a few of the original, fun games available on that system.
>
>I've noticed that there's now a standard set of terminology to
>describe features of video games. "Power ups" and "bosses". All it
>says to me is that most of the games on the market (at least the
>Genesis) share so many common elements that you can give them names.
>These video games are following a formula. Perhaps this is because
>everybody is in a race to get titles on the market. But why do I want
>to buy the same game all the time, only with different graphics?

YES YES YES YES YES! Finally, somebody can see through all of this
nonsense! Another thank you to Teh Kao Yang for similar comments.

First of all, I am NOT a Genesis hater or a Nintendo hater or a hater
of any video game manufacturer. I would also say that I am not a fan
of any such corporation either. I realize that many readers of
rec.games.video have violent loyalties to certain companies and that
their reaction to my comments will be clouded by such. You can be a
fan of a particular game or of a game designer or group of designers or
maybe a company that writes games. But to be a "fan" of a giant like
Sega or Nintendo? It's like being a fan of Proctor & Gamble or
DuPont. I have better things to do than spray paint "GENESIS RULES" on
a bridge.

It is also tempting to think that I'm just reminiscing about the Good
Ole Days when every game was a classic and everyone lived in harmonious
peace and tranqulity with the universe. But the fact is that there
WERE video games before the current wave of systems and you have a very
limited view of things if you were never exposed to them. There were
games for the Atari 2600, Atari 5200, Intellivision, ColecoVision,
Astrocade, Vectrex, Vic-20, Odyssey-2, Channel F, AdventureVision,
Commodore 64, Atari 8-bit computers, Apple II, and TI 99/4A. *LOTS* of
games. THOUSANDS of games. The Atari 2600 alone had several hundred
games for it. Plus, coin-op arcade games have been in production since
the early seventies, and hit a major peak from 1979 to 1982. All of
this before anyone heard the word "boss" or "power-up" or used a
conjugate of the verb "solve" in reference to a game by a company other
than Infocom.

During all of this time, video games never really "settled down."
Games were constanly changing in an effort to find a new audience.
Sure, a big-hit like Pac-Man would come along and spawn a quick splash
of clones, but unless a clone added some new feature, like the doors in
Mousetrap, it was quickly forgotten. After all, Pac-Man is a concept
more than it is graphics. Any other maze game full of things to eat
and energizers basically WAS Pac-Man. So game designers moved on to
different ideas.

From '80 to '82 there was Donkey Kong, Robotron, Xevious, Mr. Do,
Defender, Galaga, Carnival, Reactor, Missile Command, Zaxxon, Tempest,
Centipede, Qix, Crazy Climber, Dragon's Lair, Sinistar, Joust,
Kick-Man, Tron, etc--just look at the variety. Some general themes
would stick around for a few years, "cute games" for instance, and out
of that would come Pengo, Burger Time, Q-Bert, Food Fight, Frogger,
Domino Man, and so on. Being "cute" was about all they had in common.

Out of all of these thousands of games, the great majority of modern
home games are based on FOUR of them: Scramble (1981), Front Line
(1982), Karateka (1983), and Karate Champ (1984)--maybe Kung Fu Master
(1984) as well. This is completely ridiculous. Sure, these games were
great and fun and everything else, but this non-stop cloning is a
complete joke and has been for years. It's getting hard to
differentiate between individual games, the only things that that
change are the shape of the enemies, the bosses, the power-ups, and the
scenery. The game itself is still the same. You can play poker with a
different deck of cards, but it's still poker.

Of course, not ALL games for the Genesis are like this. But after
weeding through the Scramble clones and Front Line clones and Karateka
clones and so on, there's not much left. And what little there is
isn't very original and is usually attacked by the magazines for not
being shooters, so they don't sell as well, giving very little
incentive for future originality. To make things worse, a lot of the
"new ideas" may look completely different, but the underlying concept
is still "get to the end and 'win'."

It is easy to say that "there aren't any original ideas left," but this
is bunk. Atari Games still maintains that early-eighties will to
experiment, and each of their games reflects it. But for the most
part, the big game companies have everyone fooled into thinking that
there isn't anything other than shooters and RPGs so they'll keep
cranking 'em out and everyone will gobble them up so they'll make
more.

Another problem is that there are VERY few good game designers. Lots
of good programmers, but not designers. Just about all of Nintendo's
hits were designed by the same person. Designers used to first come up
with a game concept. Nowadays, they decide to write a shooter and then
concentrate on burning questions like "what power-ups should we have?"

You can put ANYTHING onto a CRT that you can possibly imagine. There
is no restriction saying that it has to be a bunch of junk that scrolls
to the left with a boss at the end. But if that's what you want, that's
what you'll get.

There's really a dearth of orginality EVEN in the community.
To think that argument was made before we even got full 3d games!

 

[IrishNinja]

I have better things to do than spray paint "GENESIS RULES" on
a bridge.

like what

 

[Dr D Wayne Love]

I love that no one said 'I could care less' back then.

 

[mclem]

May I suggest, if you want a slightly different flavour, taking a look at uk.games.video.misc? I'd love to claim it was more refined, but I think it's fair to suggest it was more, just, well, different. I'm in there somewhere, too!

 

[Starwolf_UK]

Interesting thread I remember doing some research a while back on Fire Emblem (found nothing of interest*, guess it confirms that hardly anybody imported it in the 90s), I also found impressions of Mother (aka Earthbound) which ended optimistically with something like it will come out soon in America...

*-I think it was someone trying to get it to work on a copier and someone wanting secret shop locations.

the hottest thing since Zelda had her first period

This description needs to be bought back...its too long for the Link Between Worlds OT, right?

 

[N4Us]

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.video.nintendo/YaSzYX7fK7E/Be_NzJpHCI4J

I agree about the damn Japaneese sales. Now they want to bring that
stupid cartoon and game Pokeman to the US. Also a stupid game call
Pocket Monsters where you go around taking pictures. Wow that's fun now
lets all go watch paint dry

Nintendo needs to realize Japan wants constant RPGS we want sports and
fun.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.video.nintendo/BjRekVVclBI/yfHjlWr35_MJ

Eat shit and die. I'm ready for the day Rare goes under.

Also not really anything to quote here, but here's Yoshi's Island being revealed, aka "Mario 5"

 

[rpmurphy]

What's wrong with today's games (8/22/91)

Out of all of these thousands of games, the great majority of modern
home games are based on FOUR of them: Scramble (1981), Front Line
(1982), Karateka (1983), and Karate Champ (1984)--maybe Kung Fu Master
(1984) as well. This is completely ridiculous. Sure, these games were
great and fun and everything else, but this non-stop cloning is a
complete joke and has been for years. It's getting hard to
differentiate between individual games, the only things that that
change are the shape of the enemies, the bosses, the power-ups, and the
scenery. The game itself is still the same. You can play poker with a
different deck of cards, but it's still poker.

Of course, not ALL games for the Genesis are like this. But after
weeding through the Scramble clones and Front Line clones and Karateka
clones and so on, there's not much left. And what little there is
isn't very original and is usually attacked by the magazines for not
being shooters, so they don't sell as well, giving very little
incentive for future originality. To make things worse, a lot of the
"new ideas" may look completely different, but the underlying concept
is still "get to the end and 'win'."

Ahaha this is amazing. Imagine this poster looking at today's games, and so much of them being Call of Duty clones... and Call of Duty campaigns are basically a Front Line clone in the first place!

 

[EmCeeGramr]

It's been a long time, but the recent release of the DOOM teaser, along with last month's paid mod controversy, got me thinking.


The New Technology: Evilution (1995/10/27 Press Release)

Hi again.

I know many are waiting for TNT: Evilution to be released today.

The snafu that occured Monday was this:

We made TNT too cool, at the 11th hour, we were contacted about the
possibility of it being released commercially and asked to delay
release until Friday so they could determine if they wanted it.

They do.

Futher discussions are currently underway.

The upshot of this is that TNT will probably be released in stores
around the world in January.

I will post further information as soon as I can.

--H2HMud (TeamTNT PR coordinator)

P.S. no, sorry, I am not at liberty to provide any further information
at this time.

>This reeks of a PR stunt.

Even if it's not, and I don't think it is, I am dissapointed with
their decision. When id started out, they intended for people to have FUN with
level editing, not to make a profit off their (id) work. Although I can
understand the desire to go commercial, this being such an organized project
of such scope, I am sure there are wad editors out there (like me) who, even
though they aren't as good, are learning and will one day be as good, who
would be willing to do such a project for free in the future. I'm expecting
heated debate over my comments, but please, no flames, ok? =)

>He's telling it like it is. When I was in on the project early
>on, it was to be freeware.

As it should be a freeware project! There are far to many good, nay I
say GREAT, wad authors making their wads freeware why would any one want
to pay for any!

I admire the work of the Windsor's, Stewart's and the many others to
numerous to mention. I'm thankful for their generosity and giftedness
with regards to their creations.

I sincerly hope to place you and your associates up there with them and
not in another category, that I refuse to extrapolate on.

Whatever company markets this has to expect a backlash. As another
poster mentioned "this reeks of a PR stunt." I personally am willing
to make the commitment that whatever company publishes this can count
my group out of its customer base -- for any product it releases.
Selling Wads is fine, but promoting and hyping it and then saying --
oh, it was just too cool -- is in rather poor taste. Not entirely
impossible to understand from the sellers point of view, but I'm
nevertheless annoyed enough to act.

>And what would *you* do if id said they wanted to buy it 4 hours
>before you upload it? -C'mon, be honest...

It's an easy question to answer if you have a little-known
(and seemingly little-used) quality known as "integrity".

When I say I'm gonna do something, Gregg, I fucking well
DO it -- WHEN I said I was going to do it, and the WAY I
said I was going to do it.

"Whoa, it was too COOL for you leeches, so we decided to
sell out and make a fast buck. Thanks for all your support
and encouragement, but tough shit, fellas."

Hope the 40-way profit split was worth THIS. Then again,
I'd be lying if I said that and meant it.

You expect us to _pay_ for a PWAD?

Did you pay for your level editors? For the tips and skills you picked up
in this forum? For the advice you received from other players? When other
players have made suggestions or criticism, have you paid them consultancy
fees?

Did the authors of great pwads such as Aliens-TC!, trinity.wad,
uac_dead.wad, raven.wad, asd2.wad, 2diehell.wad, boothill.wad,
return01.wad, etc. ask anyone to pay them for it?

You may get a _few_ dollars - although Doom will never die, Quake is just
around the corner - but is it worth the contempt and disgust of the entire
Doom community?

I wish those that are jumping the gun and criticizing id for something
they haven't done yet would consider the main good reason for id to
distribute the best wads by others: to prevent the blatant rip-off of wad
creators by folks putting out freeware/shareware DOOM add-on cds and disks.

I mean, what about that open invitation by one outfit for wad creators to
enter their contest for a $1000 prize? The only trouble with that was you
had to sign away all rights to your wad in order to enter their contest.
Meanwhile, ONE good wad represents more than a grand worth of work.

If id can make it possible for wad authors to make a few dollars for
their sweat, WHAT is the great crime? Free wads will still be made,
and if they are not up to the quality of those that id *may* choose to
distribute, anyone who wants a totally free, high-quality wad is
welcome to download an editor and build one!

Nobody *owes* anyone a free ride; if you think you're owed, then that
just shows the level of your own ingratitude for what's already been
given to you. The fact that id made their offerings editable, and have
encouraged creativity on the part of the players, is already more than
you deserve!

The TNT:E Question -- A Civil Discussion (10/29/95)

Several people I have talked to said if TNT: E went comercal, they would
not only not buy the product, but would not buy any product produced by
that company. Not that they would not use that company's products, they
simply would not BUY them. I'm not condoning or attacking this action,
just reporting. I think that who ever is buying this should think hard
about it first.

I too would like to have it, but I won't buy it. I will play it, ( I
usually have a try before you buy oportunity) and possibly pick it apart
looking for how the neat little tricks were done, but I will not pay for
it.

I agree with this point of view thoroughly, and will even provide several
reasons for it.

The first is, of course, that TNT was offered as a free pwad to be
available for download from the Internet. Whee. I remember when H2HMud
was telling me about it on #doom. Okay, so it was cool...then it was
late...and it was late again, and again. Then, on the web page it said
"It's being released commercial." By the time TNT comes out, I fear I may
forget to care.

I also refuse to pay for such things (like The Lost Episodes of Doom),
and it seems rather unethical to charge for pwads...especially when it
violates the spirit and the letter of id's permission regarding the
creation of pwads. Something about "You may release your own pwads so
long as you do not sell them..." Something like that.

Anyway, I suppose TNT would have been cool and fun to play, but I also
suppose I may never find out at this point.

I hate to say anything bad about id, since their games have given me
so many hours of enjoyment, but frankly THIS SUCKS. I was waiting and
waiting for TNT and was going to use it to wear away the time until
Quake came out...

I won't say that I wouldn't pay for this product but, without new Monsters
and new Weapons, I'm not gonna pay more than $5.00 for it, if I even
bother at all.

The TNT team is getting everything they deserve - recognition and compensation
for their time and hard work, it is the rest of us that are getting screwed.
Doom levels have long been a free product, and people have taken advantage of
it and put out products like D!Zone and other .WAD collections. This has been
a thorn in id's side for a long time and I noticed that when Abuse came out
(produced by id's Dave Taylor) that it had specific requirements on who could
put out level collections and how they could do it so I figured that id was
trying to get a handle on all the money being made from their products but, I
never thought they would jump the gun like this and try to snag a free product
out of the hands of users who have already PAID GOOD MONEY for Doom 2.

This is a big disappointment.

Cheers to the TNT team for doing a fantastic job.

Jeers to id software for stealing it from us.

TNT and iD Software (10/31/95)

Well all I gotta say is that its been fun guys but this is my final
post to a id related newsgroup. And I will not be reading them
either. I had a funny feeling that it was Id and GTInteractive who
contacted them, just by the way the team and their liason was reacting
to it and by their posts. I DO NOT plan on buying this especially
since its just new levels, new textures, new opening screen, etc.
It'll be the same old monsters, the same old weapons, the things that
I'm bored of now with Doom and Doom2. In other words nothing new
that'll make me pay more the $5 for it. So TNT, Id software, and
GTInteractive can go to heaven or purgatory(I was going to say hell
but they'd like that too much so fuckem) where its boring.
I had my doubts about Quake and now they've been concerned, we'll
never see Quake until sometime in '96. They have to releaze that TNT
won't sell with Quake on the market, and since they know Quake will be
late they pull this TNT shit. In two months I won't care about TNT or
any ID related product or anything published by GTI.
If they include new monsters or interesting features (which I doubt)
then I might take a second look, but that'll be it. Hundred to one
odds that this will be that Doom 2 The Master Levels thing they were
taking about back when Ultimate Doom got announced. By that time I'll
be spending my money on games that are higher quality and different
than Doom and Quake (like Bullfrog's Dungeon Keeper and
Indestructable) and Daggerfall (wow a story what a concept). Well Id
I know rank you down with Midway.

You were a cool company at first, but you let your EGO (no joke
intended) run away and now you're like all the rest of the big
companies (like EA, Microprose, Sierra, etc)...

I dont't think it's so much the fact that they're charging money for WADS
that bugs me, so much as the fact that they spent all this time hyping
TNT as this great new free release, and then just blew everyone off at
the last second. Me, I wouldn't buy a WAD anyway. Especially just a
single set of WADS. I can see buying a CD with 800 meg of WADS maybe,
but that's only cuz it saves the hassle of obtaining them individually.

TNT: Evilution, what a bleeding cop-out. (11/2/95)

>Well, you ain't gonna get any cash from me. I don't fucking care if Id is
>releasing it, i'm not paying for a PWAD. The end.

Adam,
What's the difference between a 32 level PWAD and an IWAD? Are you
planning, or would you consider buying the product from Id Software
called, Doom II: The Master Levels? If you don't know, all 32 of those
levels are from pwad authors.

So... what's the difference between "The Master Levels" and the TNT
levels? Personally, I don't see a difference. The authors of both
compalations put lots of time and effort into them. Many hours spent
working on them when they could have been doing other things. Don't you
think they deserve to be compensated for this time and effort? If
someone is willing to pay for them don't you think they have a right to
make some money selling their work?

Well TNT-type dudes, has all this made you think again yet? I've noticed
you've been awfully quiet lately

I say we make it free! When it comes out lets UL it to alt.doom.ii or
something. I don't think that they will mind... after all they did it
for fun...

> compalations put lots of time and effort into them. Many hours spent
> working on them when they could have been doing other things. Don't you
> think they deserve to be compensated for this time and effort? If

No, actually, since the Doom2: Master Level authors were asked to do their
levels specifically for Id, and agreed - thry could've said no. The TNT'ers
appeared to be doing it for FUN (like we all do), and specified that it
would be freeware released. So they can't really claim "We wanted money all
along for all our efforts", can they?

> someone is willing to pay for them don't you think they have a right to
> make some money selling their work?

Oh, but will they? Will anyone buy it?

This ain't the id Software I knew (11/2/95)

> The old id Software that did those wonderful things would never have done
> this. They might have hired the TNT authors to create 32 *more* levels
> to sell, but they would never have snatched away a freeware release. id
> has changed, and perhaps it's time for us to change, too.
>
> You see, the folks at id have forgotten how easy it is to copy a floppy
> disk or download a file. The only thing stopping us is our loyalty--and
> they've just shown us what that's worth to them. So if someone offers
> you a free copy of TNT:Evilution or Quake next year, I suggest you think
> back to what id Software did to you on October 23, 1995 before you say no.

The TNT:E dilemma (11/5/95)

Perhaps one thing ID can do in the future is to become the sole
distributor of level add-ons. People could send their wads in for
evaluation and providing the level meets the higher quality standards ID
sets, get distributed. Perhaps a base fee could be paid to the wad
authors, or if ID wants to handle the massive accounting dilemma this
causes, a royalty fee. This guarantees that only the best levels get
released on CD-ROMs, ID maintains control over the market in this
respect, wad authors get some money and respect for their efforts, etc.

THIS IS AN EDITING GROUP!!!! (11/8/95)

> The intent of this group, to the best of my knowledge, was to promote
> the editing of Doom/Doom2/Heretic and now Hexen wads. Granted, editor
> discussions have always been a small part, and TNT is related, but lately I
> have seen more posts conparing two editors (I won't mention names, everyone
> knows which I'm talking about) and deriding TNT than there are posts on actual
> editing! You people should start rec.games.comp.doom.gripe and keep it amongst
> yourselves! Come one, let's get back on topic!

 

[IrishNinja]

...it's been too long since this classic thread (easily EmCee's magnum opus) got bumped, but here we are again.

simply magical

 

[Hedge]

It's odd to see console flaming happen regardless of what year we live in. Especially in such blatant ways.
These are all super interesting, though. I know it's silly, but I am kind of surprised how far some abbreviations date back.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.video.sega/Rxgk16l7b2o/GOAOIQSLOlsJ

This is just amazing, and I can't wrap my mind around it. Wow.

 

[magnetic]

Just giving my appreciation for this high quality thread. I've probably bookmarked it four times by now.

 

[blame space]

I mean, TURTLES on the
>Gameboy gets better scores than ROADBLASTERS on the Lynx??? I've played
>both games, guys, the numbers are skewed...

not roadblasters

 

[neoemonk]

Been around for a few years but I've never seen this before. It's great.