Your using GrooveMame with its CTR_EmuDriver and super resolution modes right??
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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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Your using GrooveMame with its CTR_EmuDriver and super resolution modes right??
Good thinking. Definitely seems like the most plausible answer.
Yes, this was it! Thank you.
In my mind I was thinking because my PVM can only do mono audio to just ignore that thing for now...
Actually I had briefly tried this before but it was this plus needing to turn the internal PVM volume up way loud.
OKAY!
Next, I need to calibrate my screen; this is the first time I am using the 20M4U and I can tell I need to go through the basics. Please give me some help with where to start.
Ohhh, I just assumed since you bought the cable that goes into the headphone jack that you had plugged that in, lol.
This hobby has such a learning curve sometimes, glad you got it working!
Now get a decent sound system, PVM mono speakers are terrible, lol.
I gotta say, at our wedding, I used our super old PVM that has wired speaker inputs, and the sound was bad ass.
This hobby has such a learning curve sometimes, glad you got it working!
Now get a decent sound system, PVM mono speakers are terrible, lol.
I gotta say, at our wedding, I used our super old PVM that has wired speaker inputs, and the sound was bad ass.
geniusbits
Member
How long have you been using it? This is kind of scary cause I just bought one of those.
It only goes up to 1080p at 60FPS though...
1440p at 60FPS doesn't seem to be supported yet, only 1440p at 30FPS.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Just vanilla MAME.
So I'm considering taking the plunge on a Sega Saturn. Now I have to factor in looking at whether I want to acquire a CRT/RGB TV/Monitor or deal with an upscaler like the Frame Meister. Any help would be much appreciated; fairly overwhelmed with the different options/costs available. This is compounded by the fact that I've found a good deal on a Saturn with RGB/Scart cables and Action Replay, but then a better deal with Saturn, 7 games, and AV Cables.
Research GrooveMAME, its what everyone should be using when CRT's are involved
sir_kevith
Member
Its the best thing if youre a crt user! It has a lot of options for matching refresh rates and resolution. Ive played Neo Geo titles on my MVS side by side with GroovyMame and it's very accurate.
What frontend are you using for GroovyMAME? I tried MaLa but it won't generate a library, presumably because there are too many roms for the software and Windows7 (file cache?) to handle.
Then I tried attract mode but it seems to only sort by ROM file name, not the game's actual title, so a lot of stuff is out of order. And I can't find any basic search function or shortcut in the front end.
I may delete this enormous, unwieldy library because it seems to be causing problems and just slowly build a curated list of games I actually like and wanna play.
Then I tried attract mode but it seems to only sort by ROM file name, not the game's actual title, so a lot of stuff is out of order. And I can't find any basic search function or shortcut in the front end.
I may delete this enormous, unwieldy library because it seems to be causing problems and just slowly build a curated list of games I actually like and wanna play.
geniusbits
Member
It comes down to space, cost and you're ideal setup. There are 3 primary options:
1) Framemeister and HDTV
Requires the FM ($350 or so) and some SCART and SCART to FM adapter cables ($40) and of course an HDTV with an available HDMI input. Advantages are if you already have the TV you save on that and space, and you can expand your systems pretty easily by simply buying more SCART cables and maybe a switch box if you can find one. Disadvantages are a little input lag, and I guess the knowledge that the scan lines and other visual features are "fake."
2) pro monitor
Requires a pro monitor ($20-500 depending on what you're after) the same SCART cables and a SCART to BNC adapter ($20). Advantages are no input lag, arguably a better picture (at least an authentic CRT picture) and that most pro monitors are going to go for less than the FM. Disadvantages are space and versatility. Some monitors only do 480i so you couldn't play anything 480p or above on them, unlike the FM which takes everything (although it is argued how well it does with some resolutions). These things are also heavy and can be hard to work with and can break or mess up and require relatively skilled labor for fixing/tweaking. FM is almost plug and play by comparison.
3) consumer CRT and SCART to component transcoder
Requires a CRT with component input ($0-80) the transcoder ($50) and a SCART audio extractor ($20). Advantages are real CRT goodness, although not as good as pro monitor, and this is probably the cheapest and easiest option. If your consumer CRT breaks you can find another with component inputs super easy. Disadvantages are the same as with the pro monitor except that unless something is wrong with your set you won't need to know as much to calibrate it or whatever, it will already be more or less good to go.
There are a lot of X factors with this stuff too. I think there's something cool and impressive about a pro monitor, it's a conversation piece and shows you are a true hobbyist. There is also something cool about a good looking retro picture on a huge modern HDTV. You should think about how and where you want to play your games and envision what that looks like, but also don't feel like you have to get all of the stuff people on here have, it can be overwhelming, and isn't really necessary for most people to enjoy playing a game.
Thank you very much for the long reply; it's much appreciated. At the moment, I'm actually just using my PC Monitor (Samsung U28D590D) for gaming. It's fine for the PC and recent systems, but it only has HDMI/Display Ports. I got a cheap HDMI converter for the Wii and the results were less than desirable. I'm moving soon so would likely pickup a HDTV or CRT TV at that point (my girlfriend nicely offered me her parent's old CRT though I don't know the model offhand; assuming it's not top-end
). The two options I found were: the Saturn (a unique Blockbuster-rental model that was supposedly not officially sold), Black Action Replay+, 2 controllers, and COAX RGB Euro SCART Cable (CSYNC) made by retroconsoleaccessories for $120 CDN; the other being a Saturn, 7 Games (—Guardian Heroes
—Panzer Dragoon
—Panzer Dragoon 2
—Nights into Dreams
—Virtua Fighter 2
—Virtua Cop
—Daytona USA), and AV Cables for $330 CDN.
With the additional costs associated with either, I'm not sure which would ultimately end up cheaper.
I take it with the Frame Meister, you would want to be using Scart cables plugged into it, not original AV cables?
geniusbits
Member
The Framemeister takes RGB input through an 8 pin thing that you need an adapter for. It comes with a JP21 adapter, for SCART you can get one from retro_console_accessories. It also takes composite video but no one on this thread would ever recommend that. Saturn is one of the systems that gets a really sharp look from RGB and everyone seems to like it.
i get 1440p with 60 fps. i'm using chrome.
NormalFish
Banned
I was using Firefox when I made that post.=p
Tried it with Chrome and it shows up...guess I have to use Chrome again!!!
Makes sense, thanks. With regards to the transcoder ($50) and a SCART audio extractor ($20) you mentioned for a CRT, is there a way to confirm which devices work with 240p input? I've seen a couple examples of people complaining theirs only worked with 480p and above unless I misread.
Thank you very much for the long reply; it's much appreciated. At the moment, I'm actually just using my PC Monitor (Samsung U28D590D) for gaming. It's fine for the PC and recent systems, but it only has HDMI/Display Ports. I got a cheap HDMI converter for the Wii and the results were less than desirable. I'm moving soon so would likely pickup a HDTV or CRT TV at that point (my girlfriend nicely offered me her parent's old CRT though I don't know the model offhand; assuming it's not top-end
The two options I found were: the Saturn (a unique Blockbuster-rental model that was supposedly not officially sold), Black Action Replay+, 2 controllers, and COAX RGB Euro SCART Cable (CSYNC) made by retroconsoleaccessories for $120 CDN; the other being a Saturn, 7 Games (Guardian Heroes
Panzer Dragoon
Panzer Dragoon 2
Nights into Dreams
Virtua Fighter 2
Virtua Cop
Daytona USA), and AV Cables for $330 CDN.
With the additional costs associated with either, I'm not sure which would ultimately end up cheaper.
I take it with the Frame Meister, you would want to be using Scart cables plugged into it, not original AV cables?
Before adding more long winded detail, I would highly recommend reading the OP if you haven't done so already. It will reveal more details and options than geniusbits' post. And although I commend genius for taking the time to reply in such detail, there's is a lot of info he didn't touch on that could be relevant to you. Such as being able to use JP21 to mini din cables to avoid using extra adapter cables on the Frameneister. There is also the fact you can go cheap on an HDTV that can accept 240p component by using the RGB to component box on it.
Cheers, thank you as well. I have read the OP; I was more just trying to doublecheck what I was saying wasn't totally incorrect. It sounds like there's a multitude of options with both pros and cons though. Thanks for pointing out the RGB to component box aspect.
geniusbits
Member
All standard definition CRTs accept 240p over component afaik. ED and HD CRTs probably accept but upscale it.
NormalFish
Banned
unfortunately, there isn't really a end-all solution for playing old games. Individual consoles, rooms, players, regions, etc. all contribute and your job is to weigh the various options, which appears to be what you've realized.
Goodluck on your RGB journey
People saying that are using it on a modern display, which quite often doesn't accept anything below 640x480 on everything except Composite and RF. Using a Scart RGB to Component transcoder on a CRT TV is fine, and is the best option for CRT in North America if you can't find a PVM. It gives you the same IQ as on European TVs with Scart.
So, I finally got around to picking up a PVM.
Thought I wouldn't need one, as I have cabs at hand, but having a nice monitor as a test rig would be cool, also my framemeister plays up with capcom boards. I also want to rotate my Cute monitor back to landscape because I just don't play it as much with shmups.
A month or so ago, someone was selling a couple of PVMs that weren't that far away, and they surprisingly hadn't sold, so I thought what the heck, I'll pop up, see if they are any cop and maybe pick one up. so, I drove up last weekend, saw the monitors running and picked up one, -a 1454QM (I think).
Only thing was, that I had no BNC cables, so I thought that I wouldn't able to use it till a lead I ordered on sunday turned up. In fact the lead I ordered didn't turn up until today. However, later on last week I realised that it had sVHS in and my JPN Cube has sVHS, so I was able to try that and it looked pretty nice.
I've now tested the PVM with a few boards and a couple of consoles and have had no issues so far, the picture is amazing - despite the fact that I will have to calibrate and adjust the geometry a bit.
Anyway, If I were to say one thing to retro gamers, that would be - BUY A 14" PVM NOW! -
The reasons for this are;
1) The 14" takes up very little space and granted you can't use it like a regular telly and sit on the couch 6 foot away or whatever, you need to sit close to it - but that is probably the best IMO. So your awesome retro set up will take up much less space than the big widescreen CRT that you may be using.
[takes up little space]
2) The 14" will also kick the arse of any consumer CRT that you have laying around for sure! Also, relatively speaking, the picture on the 14" will at least look as good, if not better than a 20" PVM.
[beats consumer CRT's and most 20" PVMs]
3) Don't get me wrong the best CRT monitor you can get NO QUESTION will be a BVM, those things will outperform anything else out there, the PVM's included, but they can be quite hard to find, and expensive, also the 14" PVM will nearly look as good, so, unless you are really hyper-fussy about having the best - or see a BVM for cheap the PVM will do fine.
[will perform almost as well as the more expensive BVM]
4) XRGB Framemeister - OK, here it is, I was really impressed by the picture that I got from the FM, but I (still) have synch issues on some arcade boards, in addition the scan line effect could look a bit off in some circumstances. It's difficult to put my finger on exactly what is off with the FM, but after playing quite a bit on my cabs, there is something about the slightly curved glass screen on a CRT that somehow adds something.
[Much, much cheaper and less problematic than a FM, will look better too]
Anyway, enough of that, lets see some pics!
Gamecube;
Some MVS games via my supergun;
Thought I wouldn't need one, as I have cabs at hand, but having a nice monitor as a test rig would be cool, also my framemeister plays up with capcom boards. I also want to rotate my Cute monitor back to landscape because I just don't play it as much with shmups.
A month or so ago, someone was selling a couple of PVMs that weren't that far away, and they surprisingly hadn't sold, so I thought what the heck, I'll pop up, see if they are any cop and maybe pick one up. so, I drove up last weekend, saw the monitors running and picked up one, -a 1454QM (I think).
Only thing was, that I had no BNC cables, so I thought that I wouldn't able to use it till a lead I ordered on sunday turned up. In fact the lead I ordered didn't turn up until today. However, later on last week I realised that it had sVHS in and my JPN Cube has sVHS, so I was able to try that and it looked pretty nice.
I've now tested the PVM with a few boards and a couple of consoles and have had no issues so far, the picture is amazing - despite the fact that I will have to calibrate and adjust the geometry a bit.
Anyway, If I were to say one thing to retro gamers, that would be - BUY A 14" PVM NOW! -
The reasons for this are;
1) The 14" takes up very little space and granted you can't use it like a regular telly and sit on the couch 6 foot away or whatever, you need to sit close to it - but that is probably the best IMO. So your awesome retro set up will take up much less space than the big widescreen CRT that you may be using.
[takes up little space]
2) The 14" will also kick the arse of any consumer CRT that you have laying around for sure! Also, relatively speaking, the picture on the 14" will at least look as good, if not better than a 20" PVM.
[beats consumer CRT's and most 20" PVMs]
3) Don't get me wrong the best CRT monitor you can get NO QUESTION will be a BVM, those things will outperform anything else out there, the PVM's included, but they can be quite hard to find, and expensive, also the 14" PVM will nearly look as good, so, unless you are really hyper-fussy about having the best - or see a BVM for cheap the PVM will do fine.
[will perform almost as well as the more expensive BVM]
4) XRGB Framemeister - OK, here it is, I was really impressed by the picture that I got from the FM, but I (still) have synch issues on some arcade boards, in addition the scan line effect could look a bit off in some circumstances. It's difficult to put my finger on exactly what is off with the FM, but after playing quite a bit on my cabs, there is something about the slightly curved glass screen on a CRT that somehow adds something.
[Much, much cheaper and less problematic than a FM, will look better too]
Anyway, enough of that, lets see some pics!
Gamecube;
Some MVS games via my supergun;
Any chance we can see some pics of your supergun setup?
I use a Sigma AV5000, outputting RGB via Euroscart. The MVS is a MVS1F, with the 161 in 1 multicart.
I have some pictures somewhere of the rig set up, so i'll post if I find them. I'll be doing some testing on Capcom stuff today, which will be the main test for compatability (for me as CPS2/3 stuff always seems to play havoc with synch issues).
As promised for Funky Papa! Cross-posting from the scanlines thread.
GroovyMAME running on a Win7 PC connected to BVM-20G1U
The Punisher
Cadillacs and Dinosaurs
Alien vs. Predator
1944: The Loop Master
Marvel Superheroes vs. Street Fighter
CMVS vs. MAME
I don't have Neo Geo version arcade games running on MAME, so only had a version of KOF 2003 on MAME to compare to my Consolized MVS. Left is CMVS, right is GroovyMAME. Both look good with the biggest difference being that CMVS is brighter.
GroovyMAME running on a Win7 PC connected to BVM-20G1U
The Punisher
Cadillacs and Dinosaurs
Alien vs. Predator
1944: The Loop Master
Marvel Superheroes vs. Street Fighter
CMVS vs. MAME
I don't have Neo Geo version arcade games running on MAME, so only had a version of KOF 2003 on MAME to compare to my Consolized MVS. Left is CMVS, right is GroovyMAME. Both look good with the biggest difference being that CMVS is brighter.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Mmmm Cadillacs & Dinosaurs and The Punisher. My two favorite beat em ups, by a fucking mile.
Looks amazing.
Looks amazing.
Errr where's Undercover Cops & Battle Circuit
I forgot to add that on there...and I love that game.=O
sixteen-bit
Member
What about Denjin Makai 2
Another one I forgot...sigh, my mind these days. There's so many arcade games I played that I sometimes lose track!
Shadow Hog
Member
So I guess I'm team CRT now. Opted for a consumer-grade Trinitron CRT from Goodwill instead of a PVM, but F-Zero GX looks damn good on it on a Wii over component, so that's good by me. Just need to track down one of those RGB->YPbPr transcoders so I can use my older hardware as well... And, well, a TV stand that can hold a 100lb TV, heh. (A remote would be nice too, I guess.)
If I had one complaint (other than its weight), I recall the NES output over composite on it still looked kinda eh. A TV right next to it at Goodwill had a cleaner image, but... well, it had really bad overscan problems. Like, in SMB1, the top of the HUD was cut off (ie: you couldn't read "MARIO"/"WORLD"/"TIME"), to say nothing of the bottom. But, I don't intend to use composite too much, so...
If I had one complaint (other than its weight), I recall the NES output over composite on it still looked kinda eh. A TV right next to it at Goodwill had a cleaner image, but... well, it had really bad overscan problems. Like, in SMB1, the top of the HUD was cut off (ie: you couldn't read "MARIO"/"WORLD"/"TIME"), to say nothing of the bottom. But, I don't intend to use composite too much, so...
One of us! One of us!
Get you some component or Dterminal cables for video and pump audio out through the optical port and blast dat Katamri track out of a receiver or amp!
geniusbits
Member
Off the top of my head that looks like a model that doesn't have component. I have an S that doesn't, just S-video. But S-video for PS2 is probably pretty good.
That's true! It's the F models that do component. But seeing how inexpensive stepping up to component is, he might as well find an F model.
Overscan and general geometry problems can be solved easily if you can find the cheat code to access the secret service menu on your TV.
For geometry, I'd say more like... massaged rather than solved. If it's mild to begin with, you can make it practically unnoticeable but it's never 100%. Once it's middling or worse, you're stuck with the underwater effect.
baphomet
Member
A 14'' PVM doesn't even rival a hr pvm, let alone a bvm. I have multiple 14'' and 20''s, and the 14''s all have a significantly softer picture. Not to mention a 20'' is just large enough to play comfortably in most setups.
The only arcade board that I have had any sort of sync issue with the XRGB is the Taito F3. The 100-ish pcbs I've used with it work perfectly. Even games that have odd resolution/refresh output. The V_Position has to be changed on different pcbs/consoles for scanlines to work correctly. It's not one setting for everything.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Yeah, that's the thing with compromise. I wanted a CRT monitor because I absolutely loathe the viewing angles of most LCD displays and I demand pure blacks. I could have easily picked up a cheap ass, mint Trinitron TV and called it a day, but then again, I don't want to deal with all the Hz- related headaches that usually come with TVs. I also wanted to be able to run some "modern" PC games and front-ends such as Hyperspin and/or Emulation Station, so a low res CRT wouldn't quite cut it.
Mistakes were made.
Next time I'll probably make a more dedicated machine. This is just my first build after all.
Mad jelly. Alas, my MAME rig uses an NVIDIA card, so CRT_EmuDriver doesn't seem like an option
I'm looking to pick up an xRGB mini and some RGB cables to use with it. It seems like I'll need a video source selector to pair it with, since I'll be wanting to use my NES, SNES, N64 and GameCube with it. Can anyone recommend a good one? I'm looking for something with remote control capability.
Thanks for the various posters offering their help; much appreciated. After looking at various options, I think I'm going to go with a small CRT. Wondering if there are any specific transcoders/audio extractors you or others would recommend? I've seen a few on Amazon/Ebay and am unsure of the quality.
These ones for example:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004XSSDPO/?tag=neogaf0e-20
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Scart-to-Aud...id=100033&rk=1&rkt=4&mehot=pp&sd=221190880604
I got all the necessary adapters for my PVM and let me tell you, it's glorious. I hooked up my RGB devices to my amplifier and home theater system and playing Streets of Rage 2 on the MD is already blowing my mind. It's such a pleasant experience for both eyes and ears. Those basslines! (unfortunately my cellphone camera blows chunks, hopefully I can get some good pics soon.)
Even the composite picture of the AV Famicom and NES really benefits from the PVM quality. I was especially amazed by the NES picture quality in comparison to my old CRT.
I wish the RGB side of the picture would be just a tad more vibrant. It's not bad, but I wish I could adjust it easily. With composite output I can adjust the chroma button but on RGB it does not seem to work. Any owner of this model (PVM-20M4E) know how to adjust it other than individual colors on the menu?
Even the composite picture of the AV Famicom and NES really benefits from the PVM quality. I was especially amazed by the NES picture quality in comparison to my old CRT.
I wish the RGB side of the picture would be just a tad more vibrant. It's not bad, but I wish I could adjust it easily. With composite output I can adjust the chroma button but on RGB it does not seem to work. Any owner of this model (PVM-20M4E) know how to adjust it other than individual colors on the menu?
geniusbits
Member
That transcoder is the only one I've ever seen available and has gotten good reviews by all who tried it here. The audio extractor you linked is made by the same company and is probably fine, but I bought the one sold by retro_console_accessories because I trust her quality and her unit doesn't have a composite video out on it. I don't know if it makes a difference but if I just want audio extracted the safest option is a unit that doesn't even have parts to do anything else.
Quality shouldn't be a problem with RGB to Component. As long as you don't change resolution, it's just simple math to convert between the two. Unless the manufacturer completely screwed up, there shouldn't be differences between models, unlike with upscalers.
Whether the Scart audio extractor includes Composite is also irrelevant. It's just routing two pins to RCA, whatever damage the signal can do to your audio, it was already done in the Scart cable.
Whether the Scart audio extractor includes Composite is also irrelevant. It's just routing two pins to RCA, whatever damage the signal can do to your audio, it was already done in the Scart cable.
You need a Radeon HD 4xxx card. Get one on ebay, they're crazy cheap, $15-30 for cards more than powerful enough to run practically any arcade game.Mad jelly. Alas, my MAME rig uses an NVIDIA card, so CRT_EmuDriver doesn't seem like an option
That is how you do it. You can adjust the RGB values so they're very vibrant and colorful. Below is an old post about adjusting my 20M4U. I have done similar for a BVM and small PVM.
My BVM does have what I think is a weak blue gun which causes a too warm picture. I compensated by boosting B levels very high while lowering R and G enough to get something approaching a neutral image. It means my picture is not quite as vibrant as my little PVM which is very sharp and seems to have had very little use. I could be wrong and it's something else entirely giving the warm color cast. I have a BVM auto calibration tool coming in soon which should fix my settings as best as possible.
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