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[Fess]

I have a couple of unpublished C64 games of mine mouldering away on 1541 floppy disks that I'd dearly love to see again if I could cheaply lay my hands on functional hardware.

If it’s your own stuff then you should try to rip the floppies asap, some day they will stop working. I stopped thinking it should be cheap, I’ve spent more money than I’m ready to disclose just to keep my Commodore stuff alive, ripper and multiple computers and backups etc. Worth every penny imo.

I just don't like people using "preservation" as an excuse for hoarding warez, because its exactly the sort of thing that has always helped delegitimize emulation and actual preservation efforts.

I’m okay with the hoarding tbh since I know that’s the only way some things will survive. The industry doesn’t do enough. Only the most popular games which publishers can make more money from will get new life on retro collections and new releases.

 

[tommolb]

Thank the millions of people that pirate every Switch game prior to release.

So the law biding, paying public must once more suffer with a poor experience in the name of stopping piracy.

 

[Banjo64]

Not crying, just speaking the truth. Am I wrong?

Since the 1980s Nintendo has been ruthless in their business practices, always finding ways to screw gamers out of the most money possible.

Company wants to make as much money as they can from you.

From overpricing games and not putting them on sale

Supply and demand. 60m copies of Mario Kart sell at full price, why would they sell it for less. Other companies discount their games because demand drops, not because they are kind.

I don’t know what you mean by overpricing.

to creating fake shortages to drive demand,

The demand is either there or it isn’t.

to not making purchases on previous systems backwards compatible (buy Super Mario and Legend of Zelda again, suckers!)

Nintendo’s efforts have been as good as anyone’s as far as I can tell? GBA worked with DS, DS worked with 3DS, Game Cube worked with Wii, Wii on Wii U - not sure what the issue is.

Less than half of the original Xbox’s games worked on Xbox 360 and the Xbox One only announced backwards compatibility in June 2015.

PS3 ditched backwards compatibility and the PS4 had nothing.

, to blocking emulation,

You can’t currently emulate Nintendo games?

 

[lame gag1990]

Oh sweet Jesus. The hardware is so outdated at this point, the last thing that's needed is performance hits...

 

[Killer8]

I just don't like people using "preservation" as an excuse for hoarding warez, because its exactly the sort of thing that has always helped delegitimize emulation and actual preservation efforts.

It isn't an excuse, there is just a semantic difference in what the layperson means by 'preservation'. Preservation of software for archival purposes ie. professionally storing code to prevent permanent data loss, is one meaning - which is important - but it isn't what most people mean by the word. Preservation also refers to the continued accessibility of content. Almost every definition you can find online of 'digital preservation' will reference accessibility as the central driving force behind the whole practice. Some examples:

Access - Digital Preservation Handbook

www.dpconline.org

There has always been a strong link between preservation and access. The major objective of preserving the information content of traditional resources is so that they can remain accessible for both current and future generations. Preserving access to digital objects is the key objective of digital preservation programmes but requires more active management throughout the lifecycle of the resource before it can be assured.

Concept of Digital Preservation

en.unesco.org

Digital preservation consists of the processes aimed at ensuring the continued accessibility of digital materials. To do this involves finding ways to re-present what was originally presented to users by a combination of software and hardware tools acting on data.

Digital preservation | British Library

The British Library has a duty to provide continued access to our digital collections far into the future.

www.bl.uk

Digital resources change, develop and evolve. At the British Library, we collect and preserve digital material, and it's our duty to provide continued access to our digital collections far into the future.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/computer-science/digital-preservation

Digital preservation represents an emergent area of digital library research and practice. It focuses on the policies, technologies, and strategies to ensure that digital library objects and collections are available and usable now and in the future.

Data which is stored neatly on a hard drive in a corporate basement or some retro enthusiast's hard drive somewhere might be preserved from complete loss, but that means practically nothing if the public can't actually utilize it. Preservation without accessibility is just Smaug sitting on top of the mountain of gold.

Due to incomplete backwards compatibility, licensing issues, digital de-listings, entire digital storefront closures, IPs in rights limbo, failing physical hardware - the list goes on - people's access to countless old works is constantly diminishing. I have zero qualms with millions of people personally hoarding downloaded ROMs and running them on emulators if that practice preserves their connection to the media in some way - which is what the whole point of the effort is about, as per the above definitions. It doesn't delegitimize anything.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

To many basement dwellers for me to not believe one of them won't figure out how to get around this.

 

[NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt]

Company wants to make as much money as they can from you.


Supply and demand. 60m copies of Mario Kart sell at full price, why would they sell it for less. Other companies discount their games because demand drops, not because they are kind.

I don’t know what you mean by overpricing.


The demand is either there or it isn’t.


Nintendo’s efforts have been as good as anyone’s as far as I can tell? GBA worked with DS, DS worked with 3DS, Game Cube worked with Wii, Wii on Wii U - not sure what the issue is.

Less than half of the original Xbox’s games worked on Xbox 360 and the Xbox One only announced backwards compatibility in June 2015.

PS3 ditched backwards compatibility and the PS4 had nothing.


You can’t currently emulate Nintendo games?

You know what they mean by overpricing. Even though they ignore the fact that they usually release a full game. Like Baldur's Gate III and Elden Ring (which I love both games before anyone calls me a fanboy lol)

But it's funny how Nintendo releases a full game with TOTK and people still complain. Like Elden Ring and Baldur's Gate III do the same exact thing and they are instantly praised.

I didn't buy TOTK since I hated BOTW but at least I don't pretend it's not worth the price tag. People are still buying it despite the pricing too and guess what Nintendo likes money like every gaming company

 

[rodrigolfp]

Other companies discount their games because demand drops, not because they are kind.

Explain GTA V prices.

 

[KyoZz]

I get it. Sociopath is a scary word. I never insulted though or said you are one. I basically said in my first post that its gaslighting (which means you're trying to convince me of something you don't even think is true). And that's pretty much what it was. You just explained that you do care for others, donate money and want to ensure everyone has access to important cultural works. So, you can answer your own question you were asking me at the beginning.

Personally, I think everyone should be equal under the law. Everyone has a right to not have their stuff stolen. I think we can sort out income inequality issues through taxation rather than robbing people we feel deserve it. I think people have access to a lot of free cultural works also through Tubi, youtube, almost all the internet, libraries, museums, f2p games, almost all mobile games. I don't think anyone is entitled to set the price for Zelda other than Nintendo. No one has a right to it. I'd be willing to bet you don't think that's fair either.

People just don't like actually getting called out for their shoddy justifications for supporting this stuff. Tons of people actually have convinced themselves they're Robin Hood or doing some huge service for people and it's actually a great thing or a just protest against capitalism or income inequality. That's probably why people get so mad when they hear the truth.

No shit, I never said dev or editor shouldn't been paid for their hard work. And you said "everyone should be equal under the law", we all know the law is NOT the same depending on who you are nor the position you hold.
All in one it's an old debate, is piracy really hurting sales? We know now that it's not. The rest is opinion, and we differ on that. So let's agree to disagree.

Btw I'm still waiting for you to show me a single Switch game that has been impacted by PC emulation.

 

[Banjo64]

Explain GTA V prices.

?

The sales are spurred on by the regular discounts to £8-12 on all platforms.

 

[rodrigolfp]

?

The sales are spurred on by the regular discounts to £8-12 on all platforms.

The game was even free for some time on EGS, so the demand "never" dropped and it hit 165+mi in salles. So why Nintendo is not like Rockstar and drop the prices + give for free for some time too?

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Fuck Denuvo.

 

[Operations66]

Company wants to make as much money as they can from you.


Supply and demand. 60m copies of Mario Kart sell at full price, why would they sell it for less. Other companies discount their games because demand drops, not because they are kind.

I don’t know what you mean by overpricing.


The demand is either there or it isn’t.


Nintendo’s efforts have been as good as anyone’s as far as I can tell? GBA worked with DS, DS worked with 3DS, Game Cube worked with Wii, Wii on Wii U - not sure what the issue is.

Less than half of the original Xbox’s games worked on Xbox 360 and the Xbox One only announced backwards compatibility in June 2015.

PS3 ditched backwards compatibility and the PS4 had nothing.


You can’t currently emulate Nintendo games?

Oh, boy. It's a Captain of the Nintendo Praetorian Guard here! You and everyone else here know what I mean by overpricing. As far as emulation, you know Nintendo's fingers were in Microsoft's eliminating retail mode emulators (after leaving them alone for a long time). As for "supply and demand", Nintendo was infamous in the NES days for creating fake shortages of new games to drive hysteria and demand. (Maybe you were just a little cap'n back in those days and don't remember.) It was competition from Sega that forced Nintendo to change some of their anti-consumer ways.

 

[Blade2.0]

Will be great when it's cracked.

 

[Banjo64]

Oh, boy. It's a Captain of the Nintendo Praetorian Guard here! You and everyone else here know what I mean by overpricing.

I really don’t you dunce.

As far as emulation, you know Nintendo's fingers were in Microsoft's eliminating retail mode emulators (after leaving them alone for a long time).

Debunked by Microsoft, but even if it was true, so what?

Update 3:30 PM ET 4/7/2023: Microsoft has responded to the report calling the information "not accurate," and saying that this policy has been "long standing," and not new. Of course, while the policy may have been in place, it's not clear if Microsoft is only now taking a heavier hand in enforcing it.

As for "supply and demand", Nintendo was infamous in the NES days for creating fake shortages of new games to drive hysteria and demand. (Maybe you were just a little cap'n back in those days and don't remember.) It was competition from Sega that forced Nintendo to change some of their anti-consumer ways.

Again, so what? Do you think any company is obligated to produce 50m of something just to stop you from pissing yourself?

 

[NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt]

I really don’t you dunce.


Debunked by Microsoft, but even if it was true, so what?

Update 3:30 PM ET 4/7/2023: Microsoft has responded to the report calling the information "not accurate," and saying that this policy has been "long standing," and not new. Of course, while the policy may have been in place, it's not clear if Microsoft is only now taking a heavier hand in enforcing it.


Again, so what? Do you think any company is obligated to produce 50m of something just to stop you from pissing yourself?

It's funny how he mentions GTAV but doesn't mention that the company that made GTA send thugs to threaten someone lol

 

[PonyStation4]

Denuvo is always cracked. Most of the times, at launch.
Pirates don't care about DRM. The only people affected by DRM are paying consumers.
So having companies using crap like Denuvo, will only hurt paying consumers.

That hasn't been true for a year now. Empress is the only one cracking Denuvo right now, so most games are not getting cracked at all

 

[Red5]

Hundreds of games from the NES/GB/GBA/DS era are only playable thanks to emulation, they're unavailable to purchase them legally same for the hardware required to run them. I revisit a lot of my childhood games on Mega Drive and explore plenty that I missed growing up thanks to emulation, games that are near impossible to legally acquire.

People defending this are just being shortsighted elitist snobs, you think every switch game is going to be available on future nintendo hardware? Look at the huge DS library, what happens when all the hardware is sold out?

 

[Fafalada]

Denuvo will make Switch games unplayable.

Denuvo isn't some kind of fixed cost that gets added on top of things - it's entirely a configuration thing.
Having shipped VR software with it - I can comfortably say that if it drops gameplay performance it's the developer doing something wrong - not the tool itself.
That said - it doesn't make this whole news story any better - the implications are pretty poor tbh.

 

[Shifty1897]

As if Switch games needed more of a reason to run like shit.

 

[Fake]

Denuvo isn't some kind of fixed cost that gets added on top of things - it's entirely a configuration thing.
Having shipped VR software with it - I can comfortably say that if it drops gameplay performance it's the developer doing something wrong - not the tool itself.
That said - it doesn't make this whole news story any better - the implications are pretty poor tbh.

Was already proved many many times, even for Digital Foundry, with all due respect know more than any of us, that adding layers to the core game imply affecting perfomance.

The problem is, this already tax even the most powerful CPUs on computer side. The thing is, Nintendo Switch don't use a high end CPU, use a very cheap mobile ARM.

Unless proved wrong, this will affect Nintendo Switch games perfomance with barely run games at 30 fps.

 

[StereoVsn]

You think there's an honor system or something? lolno if those guys actually bought the games, no one would have a problem, but it's why we can't have nice things.

Yes, those Zelda titles sure are selling terribly. This is a stupid strawman. Plenty of folks get annoyed at the terrible performance and emulate instead.

But sure, everyone is a pirate in your story.

 

[Musashipan]

Good
I hope it helps deters all those criminals who download illegal roms

 

[StereoVsn]

It does happen. Persona 5 Royal on PC was hard to crack thanks to denuvo so people looking to pirate just emulated the Switch version.

which, again, wouldn't be an issue if the switch was actually up to date and had GOOD FUCKING HARDWARE.

P5 have been on sale for like $15-20. Anyone who really wanted to play it would have played it already.

Incidental sales from pirates who waited half a decade to play emulated Switch version is absolutely negligible.

It's same with the rest of this Denuvo emulation protection strawman. It will mostly hurt actual customers.

But yeah, I agree, if the damn hardware was decent I wouldn't emulate most games I buy. Well, except Zelda, can't deal with that stupid weapon durability.

 

[Fuz]

Awful for gaming preservation.

 

[Fuz]

Good
I hope it helps deters all those criminals who download illegal roms

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

Yes, those Zelda titles sure are selling terribly. This is a stupid strawman. Plenty of folks get annoyed at the terrible performance and emulate instead.

But sure, everyone is a pirate in your story.

The law is a strawman? Lawman?

 

[StereoVsn]

The law is a strawman? Lawman?

The "law" is on the side of customers being able to back up and play those back up copies through emulation of games they bought. At least on the US. YMMV elsewhere.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

The "law" is on the side of customers being able to back up and play those back up copies through emulation of games they bought. At least on the US. YMMV elsewhere.

I don't care what you do, bub, as long as you don't steal it. Play it how you wanna play it otherwise.

 

[StereoVsn]

I don't care what you do, bub, as long as you don't steal it. Play it how you wanna play it otherwise.

I don't care what you do but folks need to stop putting up the stupid strawman of piracy especially in this case.

Ex. BG3 is selling like crazy and it's fully available without DRM.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

I don't care what you do but folks need to stop putting up the stupid strawman of piracy especially in this case.

Ex. BG3 is selling like crazy and it's fully available without DRM.

What are the numbers on that?

 

[StereoVsn]

What are the numbers on that?

BG3? According to Belgian embassy in China (yeah, a bit of WTF), over 5.3 mil as of last week.

 

[Red5]

What are the numbers on that?

Over 5 million at 60$, on PC without DRM.

 

[Pejo]

Frankly I'm shocked about how many DRM apologists there are on GAF, a gaming enthusiast forum. Whether from a preservation/performance/preference angle, DRM is shit all the way around and should not be applauded. Only extremely narrow-sighted and small IQ people would cheer something like that.

Guess Nintendo mental derangement syndrome is a hell of a thing.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

Over 5 million at 60$, on PC without DRM.

Nice. I'm curious to see what numbers it'll get on console with no physical copies though.

 

[StereoVsn]

Nice. I'm curious to see what numbers it'll get on console with no physical copies though.

Yeah, that is a miss. I just don't get it either, not like you have to have a lot of minimum copies for a console run, especially considering how this is selling.

Maybe they will wise up and produce a physical when. They are ready for Xbox release next year, but that's still a shame.

 

[Schmendrick]

Oh no... Now we'll have to wait a week or so longer before everything is cracked and emulation works while the people on the switch get even worse performance.... Permanently. Way to go

 

[ReBurn]

Since the 1980s Nintendo has been ruthless in their business practices, always finding ways to screw gamers out of the most money possible.

From overpricing games and not putting them on sale, to creating fake shortages to drive demand, to not making purchases on previous systems backwards compatible (buy Super Mario and Legend of Zelda again, suckers!), to blocking emulation, if there’s an extra dollar to be sucked out of gamers, Nintendo will suck it out.

Fortunately for them, they have a Praetorian Guard of nostalgic gamers online to nobly defend them.

I mean I get what you're saying and all, but the ability to play Nintendo games isn't exactly one of life's necessities. Like, nobody dies if they can't play the latest Mario game on their Steam Deck. Their games are priced based on the value Nintendo assigns to them. Which must be accurate considering the numbers they sell. And while it would be nice if they made their entire back catalog available and playable on a modern system they certainly aren't the only publisher who does not do so.

I seriously don't get the entitlement people have when it comes to Nintendo games. If preservation is that important to you then hit up eBay and get the original systems and games like the people who are really interested in preservation do.

 

[MrTroubleMaker]

I wonder how much a performance hit it will have, its going to effect game design.
Also it a pile of

 

[damidu]

a match made in heaven

 

[bender]

The game was even free for some time on EGS, so the demand "never" dropped and it hit 165+mi in salles. So why Nintendo is not like Rockstar and drop the prices + give for free for some time too?

GTAV is a trojan horse for Shark Cards and GTA+.

 

[Fafalada]

Was already proved many many times, even for Digital Foundry, with all due respect know more than any of us, that adding layers to the core game imply affecting perfomance.

Ok before this ends in 'call to authority' arguments - Denuvo's (and other similar type of) anti-tampering tech isn't adding 'layers to the core gameplay' - it in fact has nothing 'directly' to do with gameplay at all.
What these approaches do is transform parts of the executable into cryptographically secure virtual-machine blocks. Such blocks of code indeed run significantly slower than any native code - but the areas that 'need' protection for DRM are virtually never runtime sensitive (or even run in realtime).
Now - there are parts of how Denuvo specifically (compared to other similar products) handles this that are a bit more black-box than developers would like - and this can lead to encoding parts of the game binary that actually do impact performance - but this is virtually never by design or intentional.

Most importantly - there's no 'blanket' performance impact for any of it - it's project specific, and even bad cases are normally things that developer could fix with enough time to work through it (this is why I referred to VR example - where things were extremely sensitive to any sort of performance deviation especially on target specs and we had zero-margin for 'adding' slowdowns after Denuovo was implemented in said products).

 

[GigaBowser]

 

[Shifty1897]

Also I am so annoyed that someone would dare defend Denuvo's effect on performance on bad dev implementation. It doesn't matter to the end user if the devs implemented it poorly (which, by the way, there are devs of AAA multimillion selling games messing up the implementation), all it means is a worse experience for legitimate paying customers.

 

[mckmas8808]

Great news.

I agree. This is great news.

 

[Luc2010]

Seems to be a little late in the game to add this. With a hacked switch. You can scan decrypted memory and crack these. Almost seems pointless.

 

[NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt]

 

[DragonNCM]

Denuvo....this will be cracked in 2 Weeks.,...

 

[Labadal]

Seems to be a little late in the game to add this. With a hacked switch. You can scan decrypted memory and crack these. Almost seems pointless.

Probably in preparation for Switch 2.

 

[Silver Wattle]

Seems to be a little late in the game to add this. With a hacked switch. You can scan decrypted memory and crack these. Almost seems pointless.

Once again proving that denuvo is garbage software aimed at executives at the cost of paying customers.