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Why XBOX lost the war - according to Laura Fryer
- Thread starter dDoc
- Start date
Iced Arcade
Member
Not a bad video.
Someone of you better be careful, she's giving credit and praise to Phil Spencer.
Someone of you better be careful, she's giving credit and praise to Phil Spencer.
FalsettoVibe
Member
Fbh
Member
Maybe not win but they had the tools to be competitive and I disagree with this idea they were doomed from the beginning no matter what.
During the era you mention Xbox was doing great and putting up some strong competition for Sony. As you mention they had good third party support, better performance on most multiplatform games, strong exclusives, even really good partnerships with more niche stuff and exclusives like Lost Odyssey and Ninja Gaiden 2 that weren't setting the sales charts on fire but made it attractive to the more enthusiast crowd.
Then suddenly their E3 conference became about little kids playing with pretend tigers, dancing Strom Troopers and Molyneux showing his fake little boy simulator. Core exclusives got reduced to the Gears, Forza and Halo trifecta while seemingly all the rest of the time and budget got used for shitty kinect games.
Even with all that they were entering the next generation in a pretty competitive position. But then they had their disastrous TV TV TV presentation and their always online plan that the audience just wasn't ready for.
Then they released their new product with a stupid name, a weak marketing campaign and costing $100 more than the Ps4 despite having weaker hardware all for the sake of Kinect which no one gave a crap about
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Banjo64
cumsessed
It’s actually mine. It’s my Xbox loving alter ego.
Pelta88
Member
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
diffusionx
Gold Member
I got an Xbox in 2001 and have owned every Xbox system except the Series. If you look at the history of it, they only had 4-5 really strong years in the market out of 22, corresponding to the first half of Xbox 360. The Kinect was obviously short-term successful but it also turned them into a trend chaser which led to the disaster that was the One, and dismantling of a lot of studios that helped make the Xbox/360 successful. I don't want to shit on MS too much because I think the Xbox and 360 were very good systems, with plenty of excellent games and MS had a lot to offer gamers. But they've never been a hardware company, it's always been a weird fit for them, and the rationale for entering this market ("war for the living room") passed long, long ago.
I really don't even know why the Series exists, I think it's holding them back. I think that focusing on PC Game Pass is a much more natural fit for them, and they can sell a lot more games on more successful consoles.
I really don't even know why the Series exists, I think it's holding them back. I think that focusing on PC Game Pass is a much more natural fit for them, and they can sell a lot more games on more successful consoles.
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LavitzSlambert
Member
Pretty good take from an insider. I’m in agreement that Xbox lost the narrative and it’s Microsoft’s fault, primarily. I am one of the few that likes Phil Spencer and thinks he is a positive influence at the company. Not saying he is faultless, but a lot of the big problems people are blaming him for are certainly originating from Microsoft leadership and applying the style of their enterprise business to gaming. They buy success rather than grow it from within. People don’t love Windows and other Microsoft products, they tolerate them.
The game quality and release cadence in more complicated and ultimately Matt Booty’s failure. He is simply the wrong guy for the job and responsible for most people’s biggest criticisms of Xbox (no games/bad games). This is my biggest criticism of Phil, he continues to allow Booty to mismanage every major release at a time where they need big hits to win back the mindshare of gamers. Sony is catching up technologically with their platform and Microsoft is losing the competitive advantage they had in the streaming/services space.
Ultimately Microsoft is going to have to determine whether or not they are committed to the gaming market. I don’t think they ever actually wanted to be in the business to begin with, they just saw the living room as the next computing hub and wanted a piece of that as not to miss out on the opportunity to continue their platform’s dominance. It’s the same way the other big tech companies are looking at gaming right now, it’s an avenue for growth. That’s not to say the employees at Xbox don’t have a passion for gaming, it’s just the entire division has been second class citizens at Microsoft.
The game quality and release cadence in more complicated and ultimately Matt Booty’s failure. He is simply the wrong guy for the job and responsible for most people’s biggest criticisms of Xbox (no games/bad games). This is my biggest criticism of Phil, he continues to allow Booty to mismanage every major release at a time where they need big hits to win back the mindshare of gamers. Sony is catching up technologically with their platform and Microsoft is losing the competitive advantage they had in the streaming/services space.
Ultimately Microsoft is going to have to determine whether or not they are committed to the gaming market. I don’t think they ever actually wanted to be in the business to begin with, they just saw the living room as the next computing hub and wanted a piece of that as not to miss out on the opportunity to continue their platform’s dominance. It’s the same way the other big tech companies are looking at gaming right now, it’s an avenue for growth. That’s not to say the employees at Xbox don’t have a passion for gaming, it’s just the entire division has been second class citizens at Microsoft.
Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
PC GamePass can't exist on its own. Would be entirely too expensive, it's currently subsidized by console gamepass subscribers.
If the overall revenue drops because there is no console, Microsoft can't afford to pay the same prices for content. With less content, you have fewer users on PC.
If Xbox dies, so does GamePass.
HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
Because Sony was also kicking its own ass. When PlayStation is steamrollin', Xbox stands no chance. History has shown this.
The goal shouldn't even be to conquer Sony. That shipped has sailed. It needs to be a strengthening of their own goods.
Giallo Corsa
Member
diffusionx
Gold Member
MS sells a lot of games on PC, not just GamePass, their games are very successful on Steam. And PC Game Pass is growing faster than Xbox Game Pass. Also, the Xbox is losing ground in the market. So why does MS need to invest all these resources into making and selling this console that is shrinking in the market to prop up the part that is growing? That makes no sense. It also won't work long term.
Edit: I also said MS could go third party and sell their games on other consoles. Sony and Nintendo may even be amendable to a MS-only GamePass similar to EA and Ubi. The bigger poiint here is that MS is a software/service company, and I am saying that I don't see why they need to sell hardware when they can transition this business to software/service, where the rest of the company expertise lies.
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JohnnyFootball
GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
Despite my rhetoric, I legit want Xbox to be successful and competitive. I simply have no faith that their culture and focus will allow for it. There is a reason I favor Sony acquisitions over MS ones. I simply have better faith that Sony can properly utilize the studios they have acquired and give us great games. If I had faith that MS could properly utilize the Bethesda properties, I'd be supportive.
I do think Gamepass will be destructive to the industry long term as I think it will be forced to take a quantity over quality approach. There is simply no way that a company even those with as much money as MS will continue to invest in high quality exclusives if there isn't growth to justify it. It's not like MS hasn't abandoned projects before.
kuncol02
Banned
Except they weren't even when PS3 had no good games, was more expensive and just worse product it still was selling better in most of markets except US i UK.
No it doesn’t
Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
You've made a lot of mistakes here.
- Microsoft sells a lot of games on PC absolutely. Their gaming operating costs are also high, they're able to mitigate this by selling on Xbox and generating revenue on Xbox. Even if they were to sell their games on PS5 and Switch, they'd still see a reduction in overall operating income due to the loss of royalties and gamepass revenue on Xbox.
- PC GamePass is growing faster than Xbox GamePass because Xbox GamePass has plateaued. That isn't to suggest that PC GamePass is anywhere close to outpacing it in terms of MAU though.
- Again, if Xbox disappears, GamePass will too.
fart town usa
Member
I started following her channel the other week, insightful stuff.
I have nothing against Xbox but yea, they seem to have lost the plot towards the end of the 360 and have been floundering ever since. I'd also say the same for Sony this gen even though they're selling gang busters. Honestly don't really give much of a shit though, Capcom and Indie VR studios keep me engaged.
I have nothing against Xbox but yea, they seem to have lost the plot towards the end of the 360 and have been floundering ever since. I'd also say the same for Sony this gen even though they're selling gang busters. Honestly don't really give much of a shit though, Capcom and Indie VR studios keep me engaged.
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Dr_Ifto
Member
Debatable
Was really around 2008-2009. The company just died in terms of output.
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fart town usa
Member
diffusionx
Gold Member
This idea that MS absolutely needs a console to sell videogames is simply wrong. They sold games before Xbox and they can sell games after. Lots of companies sell videogames and do fine with it. Now you are making the mistake that GamePass as currently constructed - which is made up of some MS games, but a lot of third party titles they pay huge money for - is the way it has to be, and since that requires a ton of money, they need to figure out ways to generate more revenue. That's wrong, especially when it involves operating in this market that they are really not operating very well in. if the Xbox was more successful and more predictable as a market, you could have something like the printer/printer ink business that HP runs in, but it's not that at all. Would this require a change in their operating model, absolutely, it's huge change, but it's not like MS has not undergone huge changes. Once upon a time Windows was their main moneymaker, now it is basically irrelevant as a revenue generator.
I'm also not convinced that GamePass as is going away would be so horrible. These subscription services are not what everyone thought they would be, except for arguably Netflix, for now.
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S0ULZB0URNE
Gold Member
Like the brand but rather they sell it to a more competent company.
graywolf323
Member
I know I’ve mentioned this before but a certain someone took over as the head of 1st party studios for Xbox in 2008
Pasta la Vista
Member
I really thought they were gonna turn things around at the start of this gen. The Xbox One X was a great upgrade and a better pro console than the PS4 Pro. They were also going all in with their backwards compatibility and we all know how that ended.
Personally I think this current gen is the weakest all around, but MS has done a really good job of actively making me want to avoid their consoles completely this time with their blunders and pathetic, broken first party output.
Personally I think this current gen is the weakest all around, but MS has done a really good job of actively making me want to avoid their consoles completely this time with their blunders and pathetic, broken first party output.
Cyberpunkd
Member
Nintendo margins - being the highest out of the three - disagree.
Cyberpunkd
Member
Bruh, with Playstation you MAYBE, MAYBE would have been right, but with Switch output this is a terrible take.
Lucifers Beard
Member
Like what exactly? Oh and please don't think that I'm saying that Sony are making loads of interesting games, because they aren't making anything I'm interested in either.
Roberts
Member
This is how you see it. I see xbox fans giving MS hell when they fuck up and Playstation fans trying to justify or even cheer Sony’s mistakes or anti-consumer moves. I am pretty sure truth is somewhere in between.
graywolf323
Member
what reality are you living in? because it’s sure as hell not this one
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I dont know about that. What they had was good leadership who pounced on talented third party devs to bring third party exclusives like Morrowind, Oblivion, Doom 3, Half Life 2, Gears of War, Mass Effect, and Bioshock. They recognized the potential in these games and invested in a lot of these games. Similar to what Don Matrick did with Titanfall and Sunset overddrive.
But what they did not do was build a culture and innovate on their own. They let Bungie walk. They fumbled Fable. And then diverted to putting out Kinect trash for the rest of the gen. The 360 era was defined by third party exclusives, not first party content. The moment sony started getting those third party games, Xbox lost that battle.
What they have done now is gone back to that early 360 era days but they are now buying up all the studios instead of moneyhatting them one at a time. They are hoping for Bethesda, ID tech, and Arkhane to make up for Mass Effect, Bioshock, Obsidian and Gears of War, but so far nothing has changed. My guess is that eventually it will. And thats why I disagree that MS has lost the war., They just closed Activision. If anything they have lost some battles, and might have just won a battle that will win them the war in the long run.
JTCx
Member
You are exactly the type of script reader he was referring to. Good job exposing yourself.
Xbox as a console brand seems to be really dying lately can Scarlett change that or will it be a short lived project?
There was more hype around Xbox Scorpio than there is around Scarlett , Xbox One X started off with a nice push from Microsoft but it seems like they quickly gave up on it you can get a Xbox One X for $402 right now but no one seems to care that it's $97 off . You can get the Xbox One S A.D for...
BlackTron
Member
Microsoft had a smaller budget? Holy shit is EVERY last one of your posts this dumb?
Kokoloko85
Member
?? Im not sure what your disagreeing with.
MS was kicking Sony’s arse at the start. For the reasons I said. and it didnt last and they won’t get to the same position again
XXL
Member
fart town usa
Member
Right. I'm not even much of a fan of the Switch but I can't deny how killer the software library is and Nintendo's output.
DonkeyPunchJr
World’s Biggest Weeb
Mostly agree with this except:
1. They did reasonably well with first party games in the early part of the generation. Halo 3/ODST, Forza series, Project Gotham Racing series, even Fable 2 was pretty good (although Rare’s games were mostly disappointing)
2. They innovated quite a bit with the online features + social aspects (achievements, gamer cards, Xbox Live Arcade, microtransactions, etc). It took Sony a while to catch up.
3. I’d also give them props for massively expanding the selection of Japanese games with support from Sega, Namco, Mistwalker, Tecmo, Koei, Tri Ace, even Square Enix, etc
Gudji
Member
VideoGameEnjoyer
Member
Microsoft is good at being a very large company.
The Xbox department seems to barely understand the market they are in, or how to be successful in it. But have an infinite budget because of point #1. Any other publisher being run like they have been would have folded long ago.
The Xbox department seems to barely understand the market they are in, or how to be successful in it. But have an infinite budget because of point #1. Any other publisher being run like they have been would have folded long ago.
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
XBox operated on a budget decided on by Microsoft.
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diffusionx
Gold Member
The thing that should be concerning for Xbox fans is that they had three big releases this year that all underwhelmed. Redfall was a total disaster, and on a different level. But neither Starfield nor Forza are really the games they should have and could have been. These games were all hugely delayed. I don't see the improvement in MS' processes compared to Infinite which was in the same boat (and also followed up by the worst GAAS operation I've seen, maybe ever). I look at Forza and, obviously I dont know what went on behind the scenes, but it's just really disappointing and who can trust MS to properly maintain their games. Redfall just got a 60fps patch after six months lmao.
Moses85
Member
Thirty7ven
Banned
You really need to come up with some receipts after that piece of unknown trivia. What was Xbox’s budget vs PlayStation?
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Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Look at the Phil Spencer going to Satya Nadella conversation. This has been public record for a while now.
Roberts
Member
I simply commented on misconception that the issue is one-sided when it is clearly not.
Listen, no matter what MS themselves do or what fans demand from it, it will never beat Playstation or Nintendo. I think it is no longer possible. That said, they have been doing a lot not to fall deeper into obscurity and some of these desperate moves have been very good for us, green rats. First Xbox One X console then BC, then GP and other little things they brought to their new console motivated me to get back into gaming when I was about to give up on it. So, excuse me when I do celebrate xbox when they do shit I like.
MatrixReloaded101
Member
You’re right about them getting good 3rd party exclusives but what they did with Xbox live was innovative and Xbox live was one of the main reasons the 360 was so successful. Xbox live was already on the original Xbox but they made it 10x better on the 360.
As for your take on them winning the war because of the acquisitions, the thing they are struggling with even with these acquisitions is quality. I’ve noticed most of there recent games like Forza, Halo infinite, Redfall and Starfield all seem to have issues at launch and I think it’s because they are adopting this mindset of “it’s on game pass we can patch it up later”.
That mindset if it grows I think will hold them back compared to PlayStation and Nintendo because those other two companies literally can sell their games at 10x the price mainly because people know there games will be high quality day one.
Also with the new call of duty games not being in game pass day one idk what type of impact the actvision acquisition will have for them. Interested to see how it all plays out.
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Thirty7ven
Banned
Going to Satya for what? 70 billy? 7.5 billy? GP money?
I want receipts on what you said.