Well I do have like two different things I'm working on. If this story idea doesnt lead into anything then that's how it is eh? I DO want to push more work out next year.
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Writing-GAF: Writing, Publishing, Selling |OT|
- Thread starter AngmarsKing701
- Start date
Well I do have like two different things I'm working on. If this story idea doesnt lead into anything then that's how it is eh? I DO want to push more work out next year.
H.Protagonist
[-_-]/
Nice. I have heard that a lot of people use writing groups for this. My only reader is usually my long-suffering sister.
I've never tried one, but maybe for the next book.75-95k sounds like a nice range to me. Long enough to expand further on things, but still tight.
Ah, okay. I thought you'd been submitting to big publishers. As for beta readers, yup, it's a thing. Most people have friends or writing groups that they use for feedback, but professional beta readers offer more effective (and harsh) criticisms/feedback than friends are apt to many times. You can generally get this stuff from your editor as well, so beta readers are kind of specialized, but I think they're valuable because their opinions are more from the perspective of your audience than a clinical editing run.
Anyway, if you have editing skills as well, that would be handy for such a side gig. Perhaps Angmars could list you under resources on the first page? I'm not sure what you'd charge for such a thing, but a 'barter' beta system wouldn't be out of place (feedback for your own works, marketing exchange, etc.) on GAF, at any rate.
Conkersbadfurday
Member
I think I got a contact with an agency. She interned. Can't remember if I posted that or not.Congrats! That's a huge (134,509?!) accomplishment. I'm always happy to have more fantasy out in the world.
On the agent-side, I don't know about all the authors here, but I think whatevermort is the only one with a major publisher and therefore perhaps the only one with an agent/agent experience. Several have sent their stuff to publishing agencies, though, I believe. Mike M? Ashes?
Half hte people I've told said I should just self publish, which kinda bothers me. I mean, I wrote the thing, I might as well go for broke.
Cynical enough to think that a year and a half from now, it'll be five dollars on Amazon
I see no downside to pursuing traditional publishing. If you make it, great. Better than great, fucking fantastic. You essentially won the lottery. If you don't, there's self publishing, so at least your stuff is out there, but you're in an endless sea of people all doing the exact same thing.
Traditional publishing is not a golden ticket to fame and fortune, but it's a big leg up over self publishing and is absolutely worth pursuing in most cases (setting aside stuff like churning out erotica for the Kindle lending program thing detailed a few pages back. That's really pretty cunning.)
Traditional publishing is not a golden ticket to fame and fortune, but it's a big leg up over self publishing and is absolutely worth pursuing in most cases (setting aside stuff like churning out erotica for the Kindle lending program thing detailed a few pages back. That's really pretty cunning.)
Oh this is interesting!
Anyway I self published a book about 2 years ago and have worked on the sequel since and it's nearly ready to go. First book was 180,000 words. The second is about 280,000 (yes I can write up a storm). My typical amount to write per day was somewhere around 1000 to 1500 words (I tended to always hit about 1200 maybe more maybe a less).
The two books are both sci fi/ humour (quite dark). The revolve around a single man and his missions for Earths central government (a sort of all powerful morally superior establishment who sees everyone else in local space as morally unclean/not up to their standards). The problem is Central has all the morals standards of a depraved sex addict asked to an over 60's swingers party. Our hero (well not quite a hero) has realised this many decades ago and went into retirement only to be pulled out of it by the lure of a mission that needs urgent attention. If he doesn't go then a group of low minded psychopathic killing machines will get their hands on an awful lot of nuclear weapons (They use primitive bombs to decimate worlds because the bombs are nasty and filthy and to make sure everyone knows they did it). Our hero swings into action and then an awful lot of very nasty things start to happen resulting in several hundred million dead, along with our Hero (not once but quite a few times). Along this wonderful tale of death and destruction he will have to cope with meeting people he despises, being burnt, being shot at, being sliced apart, being taken over by an alien AI and whole series of even more unpleasantness. Suffice to say he is not a happy man at the end of it, and his mood only worsens when he discovers the truth behind everything that has happened...
The second book takes place in the past the present and the future with the past piece leading to the beginning of the future piece which leads to the beginning of the past piece which ends up arriving at the present piece. Sounds complex but it all makes sense. It all involves a vicar, Robin hood, some disgusting green blobs who have a ship the size of a solar system and our Hero being forced to live a life of utter mediocrity again and again and again.
It all leads to a third book which I have an idea for.
Anyway I self published a book about 2 years ago and have worked on the sequel since and it's nearly ready to go. First book was 180,000 words. The second is about 280,000 (yes I can write up a storm). My typical amount to write per day was somewhere around 1000 to 1500 words (I tended to always hit about 1200 maybe more maybe a less).
The two books are both sci fi/ humour (quite dark). The revolve around a single man and his missions for Earths central government (a sort of all powerful morally superior establishment who sees everyone else in local space as morally unclean/not up to their standards). The problem is Central has all the morals standards of a depraved sex addict asked to an over 60's swingers party. Our hero (well not quite a hero) has realised this many decades ago and went into retirement only to be pulled out of it by the lure of a mission that needs urgent attention. If he doesn't go then a group of low minded psychopathic killing machines will get their hands on an awful lot of nuclear weapons (They use primitive bombs to decimate worlds because the bombs are nasty and filthy and to make sure everyone knows they did it). Our hero swings into action and then an awful lot of very nasty things start to happen resulting in several hundred million dead, along with our Hero (not once but quite a few times). Along this wonderful tale of death and destruction he will have to cope with meeting people he despises, being burnt, being shot at, being sliced apart, being taken over by an alien AI and whole series of even more unpleasantness. Suffice to say he is not a happy man at the end of it, and his mood only worsens when he discovers the truth behind everything that has happened...
The second book takes place in the past the present and the future with the past piece leading to the beginning of the future piece which leads to the beginning of the past piece which ends up arriving at the present piece. Sounds complex but it all makes sense. It all involves a vicar, Robin hood, some disgusting green blobs who have a ship the size of a solar system and our Hero being forced to live a life of utter mediocrity again and again and again.
It all leads to a third book which I have an idea for.
Conkersbadfurday
Member
Moar like pretty cunting :3
But yeah. That's the plan. I think what I've written is good, but I dunno if it'll sell well. I mean, it's not about publishing good, i'ts about publishing stuff that will sell.
Hey I'm trying to sort of branch out in genre's and stuff in terms of my writing, moving away from fantasy and world building to more modern stories, character driven stuff.
Could you guys um, critique this little chunk and sort of set me on the right path in terms of what I need to change about it? I'm not happy with it at all, really.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iE9dKbHzerEeNXGEhX5zZ0ykoeP_FOakXNFn0EZdNNU/edit?usp=sharing
Cheers
Could you guys um, critique this little chunk and sort of set me on the right path in terms of what I need to change about it? I'm not happy with it at all, really.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iE9dKbHzerEeNXGEhX5zZ0ykoeP_FOakXNFn0EZdNNU/edit?usp=sharing
Cheers
I do critique work with my writing groups, and have some editing background (classes and interned at a major publisher). I'd be happy to offer some feedback (as I'm sure others would too), but I find it best to check, first, what exactly you're looking for. Do you want overall thoughts? Character critique? Setting? Copyedits? I just don't want to poke my nose where it doesn't belong.
Also would you prefer PM?
This more or less sums it up for me. I've been told other stuff I've done is "good". But that's by people I know, and I need to know. I just want to be a writer and a good one.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
Speaking of critique groups, what would be the best place to go for starters in sf / fantasy?
AngmarsKing701
Member
Do a Google search on writing groups in your town/area. That's how I found the one I worked with on Ahvarra.
I didn't want to post in this thread until I had some significant news to share or something.
However, I just got back the results from the latest Writers of the Future contest. I've been entering this thing for over a year now. I finally got through the first pass and... only achieved an honourable mention.
:\
I know I should be happy that I've at least reached that but I just find the process so defeating. This is on top of struggling to just get people to even read my stuff let alone finding helpful editing. Doesn't help that I don't even know what the hell to do to even get my stories into the top. The whole process just feels like a soul crushing crap shoot.
Which... I understand is the case... but it still sucks.
So, I suppose my question to the rest of you would be one about length. The contest states that it accepts entries up to 17,000 words. I know I'm pretty long winded and I've been trying to trim it down but do you think that it's perhaps a "trap" number. In that, do you think I would increase my chances of winning if I got my shorts down to 10,000 or 9,000 or even lower? Are there hidden publication considerations that aren't publicly stated and that longer stories are simply far less desirable?
However, I just got back the results from the latest Writers of the Future contest. I've been entering this thing for over a year now. I finally got through the first pass and... only achieved an honourable mention.
:\
I know I should be happy that I've at least reached that but I just find the process so defeating. This is on top of struggling to just get people to even read my stuff let alone finding helpful editing. Doesn't help that I don't even know what the hell to do to even get my stories into the top. The whole process just feels like a soul crushing crap shoot.
Which... I understand is the case... but it still sucks.
So, I suppose my question to the rest of you would be one about length. The contest states that it accepts entries up to 17,000 words. I know I'm pretty long winded and I've been trying to trim it down but do you think that it's perhaps a "trap" number. In that, do you think I would increase my chances of winning if I got my shorts down to 10,000 or 9,000 or even lower? Are there hidden publication considerations that aren't publicly stated and that longer stories are simply far less desirable?
AngmarsKing701
Member
Ran a Kindle countdown deal on my book this week and only sold two copies. :-(
I wish the sales reports dashboard allowed for a year to date view.
In other news, I'm over 10k words into book 2, which is a first person POV and expected to be much shorter than Ahvarra.
I wish the sales reports dashboard allowed for a year to date view.
In other news, I'm over 10k words into book 2, which is a first person POV and expected to be much shorter than Ahvarra.
Nothing wrong with an HM. I just got one of those as well.
Ah, alright. Everything I heard for finalists had been on the short end. Little reassuring to know there are a few longer ones that make it.
I will probably aim for the 12k mark, however. That way I can turn the rejections right into Tor submissions without having to do further rework.
Plasticine
Member
Countdown deals have been completely useless for me. I've done them in conjunction with free days, but rarely see a bump in sales. People seem just as likely to come back and buy the extra book at full price than bite on a countdown. I have no idea why this is. Either way, it doesn't result in a prolonged or even meaningful increase in sales.
If general kindle shoppers have my kindle countdown habits, it's because:
a) Even for $2 or whatever I don't bite on books unless I'm sure it's exactly what I'm looking for or it's been independently verified as good (i.e. bookgaf says "Sounds cool")
b) I don't look at countdown deals very often as it is
a) Even for $2 or whatever I don't bite on books unless I'm sure it's exactly what I'm looking for or it's been independently verified as good (i.e. bookgaf says "Sounds cool")
b) I don't look at countdown deals very often as it is
I ran a free promotion recently and apart from a few hundred downloads the first day I didn't get any purchases of the following books or any reviews. Thankfully it was only a $5 promo. I think I'm going to try and get new book covers before I run anything else. Either an episodic fantasy is a hard sale or what I have just sucks.
Since everything I have up right now is priced at $.99 I haven't been able to run a Countdown deal but it's nice to see how it's working for others. Thanks for the info.
Since everything I have up right now is priced at $.99 I haven't been able to run a Countdown deal but it's nice to see how it's working for others. Thanks for the info.
Conkersbadfurday
Member
Damn. So I'm trying to get myself psyched up to start my next project. After spending so much time editing, it's hard to get back into writing. It's an idea I've had for over a year, which doesn't help me. I'ts no longer shiny and new.
Hoping to start January first. I'd like to read Hamlet first since I kinda want to work with that structure a bit.
Hoping to start January first. I'd like to read Hamlet first since I kinda want to work with that structure a bit.
FlowersisBritish
fleurs n'est pas britannique
Boo! Don't read Hamlet. Hamlet's lame. Read King Lear. Now there's some dark shit to work with. No one ever alludes to King Lear...
Howdy writing GAF.
Just finished my extensive editing of my novel. Been working on this for 4 years now. Decided to give traditional publishing a go and working on queries.
It's about as soul sucking as looking for a job...having to research all these agents, write a letter specifically for them, and I'm having serious trouble trying to explain what my book is without giving the entire story away. Anyone else have this issue? There's a major point to the book that can't just be told, but it's central to explaining what's going on in it.
Just finished my extensive editing of my novel. Been working on this for 4 years now. Decided to give traditional publishing a go and working on queries.
It's about as soul sucking as looking for a job...having to research all these agents, write a letter specifically for them, and I'm having serious trouble trying to explain what my book is without giving the entire story away. Anyone else have this issue? There's a major point to the book that can't just be told, but it's central to explaining what's going on in it.
fredrancour
Member
disclaimer:
I have never been published and everything I know about query letters comes from listening to episodes of Writing Excuses. They're all been published though, so it's probably good information. Cyan loves them too I think. I think there's a dedicated query letter episode someplace in there, but they've got a ton of episodes and a poor tag system.
If I remember correctly, you're not supposed to attempt to surprise the people you're writing a query letter to. You are allowed to spoil the hell out of the book for them. Editors and agents know how to evaluate books. They earn their paychecks by doing it, and by convincing others of those opinions. If the twist, and the book surrounding it, are good enough to meet their standards, they will be able to appreciate the story even without being blindsided by said twist firsthand. Then, when it's time to sell the books to consumers, you have professional help with the question of selling customers on the book without spoiling it.
perhaps structuring the query letter so that it gives information on the context in which the twist is revealed would help?
Or find the query letter episode on writing excuses.
Writing queries is hard. Really hard. I'm in that process at the moment, too. I've found Query Shark most helpful, really. Go through the archives there to see what to do and what not to do. You can even submit to her, if you like and feel comfortable doing so, and see what she says about your query on how to improve it. She is an agent, after all, and would probably know best.
Conkersbadfurday
Member
Hamlet is the best. Also, King Lear was surprisingly funny when I read it last year. Or maybe I wasn't supposed to laugh at some of those parts...
On the topic of query letters:
They're a damn bitch. I have a draft of one still waiting on feedback from someone who worked at a publishing house. Her best advice was to not try and break the mold. Lots of people think they'll be the special chaps that really wow you with their creative query, but honestly, agents just want the standard. Talk about yourself a bit alongside the book, then give a synopsis of the book. Include however many pages they want you to. Don't give a breakdown of everything unless asked.
Some people do that too, apparently.
Zeuanimals
Member
How do you guys tend to get your ideas? I'm 99% sure my method is terrible; just write something, likely cliched, and build it from there. I need some kind of brainstorming technique to get my juices flowing so I don't just create a nonsensical mess. Maybe create some kind of web thing too so plotlines flow organically rather than go nowhere or end in an unappealing way.
What kind of ideas? Characters, plot, events... or just whatever, ideas in general?
I'd suggest you should just read stuff (books, TV Tropes, Wikipedia, etc.) or watch/play things... You will see interesting stuff eventually, either play with the concept, take the idea to different direction, or combine with another idea.
If you're the dream-seeing-and-remembering kind, like i am, they work as well, sometimes.
An idea is only a cliche when it is played the same way it is always done... but even then, cliches may be just fine, if they mesh well with the rest of the story (or whatever) and are well done (though how a cliche is well done or not well done is quite another discussion).
Crash Station
Member
I always have a backlog of ideas. Before I work out, I try to focus on only one so I can hopefully come up with a basic outline while I'm hopped up on adrenaline during some cardio. After that's done, everything around me becomes inspiration. It might be a plot point in another piece of media that I'd like to take in a different direction within the confines of my own universe, or maybe it's just an unexplainable flash of inspiration.
When I'm actually doing the writing, stuff that I only had a vague idea how to handle gets super fleshed out in my mind. When I started writing two hours ago, I was pretty certain of just what plot points I was going to tackle. By the time I finished, new ideas that I thought were exponentially better had taken the place of my original plan. Despite being rather insignificant in the long run, I feel these changes add some rather telling subtle implications that should complement my plan for the climax.
Really, there's no right way to do this stuff. Find a method that works for you or just create your own. I know both those things are easier said than done, but keep trying and you'll probably get something worked out.
fredrancour
Member
Mostly by taking in media and then wondering about tweaks or remixes of it. A tiny side-dish of writing about personal experiences.
Any stuff of mine that feels original and well-rounded usually comes as a result of nursing one idea for a long time until a complementary idea occurs by random chance.
As for the process of getting enough ideas to populate a whole story, I do my wild brainstorming by listing crap out as it pops into my head in a disorderly note file, then by refining into a broad outline, then by actually writing. There are often sub-files of notes within that, where I'll realize one category of stuff has its own chaotic mess to explore.
It's not a very good system but I'm a better editor than outliner so I'm ok with it.
I've actually noticed that with the book I started for this past nanowrimo, solutions to my problems have actually been hidden in the mess of stuff I've already written, and have become visible to me after walking away for a while and reflecting.
EDIT: I use the word "actually" way too damn much what the hell.
Zeuanimals
Member
Yeah, that's pretty much what I do. And when I use cliches, I tend to mix them up a bit, but they still come off as incredibly cliched to me. After playing The Wolf Among Us, I've been messing around with supernatural noir tales, which is a hole I think I need to dig myself out of since I just end up making my protagonists someone exactly like Bigby Wolf or Jake Gittes with similar plotlines.
I think what I'm really asking is if it's a good idea to create some kind of web of ideas and a formulated structure that I have to reference and consistently hit upon, or is that all too constrictive? I've always been more of a free writer and I felt I was at a disadvantage in some ways but I tended to have more fun just writing, but the main disadvantages were that I burnt out and gave up due to lack of ideas and because I didn't have anything to really push me to write. Maybe some kind of pre-established structure will help?
These both sound like good ways of forming a story. Thanks! I'm gonna try it.
I don't know if that's a question that can be easily answered. They just kind of... happen? It can be something that randomly pops into my head (happened to me yesterday, actually), inspiration from other things, pretty much just a natural result of a bunch of things swirling around in my head and sometimes coalescing. It helps to have a job where you can go on autopilot and think about things, for me.
It seems like the question you're more asking is how do we develop ideas. What I do is generally start with a prompt of sorts. It can be a premise, a line of dialog, whatever's popped into my head. Then from there I free-write in full stream of consciousness mode. I'll write about absolutely anything that comes to mind in a doc file, and slowly an actual story tends to come into shape. For instance, the early prewriting for my current project started with me throwing down a bunch of song lyrics I like, as well as shattered phrases like One moment, I think I hear waterfalls..., "Door", "Left without a grave", etc. until I eventually found a jumping off point (the waterfalls thing) and refocused on that, vomiting ideas onto the paper until it magically became a plot.
That doesn't work for everyone, though. I'm what I call an "exploratory" writer, which means that I like to go into a first draft with only fairly basic planning, and let a lot of the details come up as I write. The result is A LOT of editing work, but I feel it also lets me get my ideas flowing in the best way.
Different things work for different people. You won't know what works for you 'till you try it.
AngmarsKing701
Member
Sometimes I think through things that come to me. Sometimes it's just completely random. My friend posted a picture on Facebook of a very very dark chocolate cake and rather than call it devil's food I called it Demon's Heart.
Which spawned an idea she and I have been co-writing. So ideas can come from left field sometimes.
Which spawned an idea she and I have been co-writing. So ideas can come from left field sometimes.
Conkersbadfurday
Member
Yeah. A lot of my narrative poems sprang from crazy dreams I've had. Sometimes shit just comes to ya.
Sometimes it's just a strange string of words too. I've gotten into the habit of writing fun word pairings down, just in case they'll do something special for me later.
FlowersisBritish
fleurs n'est pas britannique
I work a terrible fast food job, and while I usually work drive through, I occasionally work front counter and I like to look at weird looking people and make stories for them. Just got out of work today, and I'm gonna start writing a thing about a kid whose dad is a piece of shit and clearly doesn't care for him. I also have a collection of cool arts I look at when I'm feeling stuck. I just turn on pandora and scroll through till something vague comes to me and force something out of that.
For me, the big thing is try and get as much as you can from as little an idea possible. If you can think of only one neat sentence, try and build a story around that with questions; why did you like the line, why would someone say it, what were they doing before. I rarely ever fully think through stories, and some of my best stuff began with just a guy smoking in his toyota.
Conkersbadfurday
Member
Anyone here in the habit of writing to music? I've gotten into it and really like it. (I may have asked this before, but since i drink like a writer, I forget things).
I guess what I do for writing exercises is find an instrumental song, take the title, and just write to the song in hopes of creating some crazy kind of poetry thing. It's fun.
I guess what I do for writing exercises is find an instrumental song, take the title, and just write to the song in hopes of creating some crazy kind of poetry thing. It's fun.
Instrumental music is amazing for writing companion I agree, but I never thought them as a writing subject before.
FlowersisBritish
fleurs n'est pas britannique
Ooooh, that sounds fun. I might give that a try. I like to listen to God is and Astronaugh and Luntz, and they have some pretty cool song titles(Murmuring Mermaids, First days of Sun, Wobbly Flu Twilight)
Elfforkusu
Member
I've had a lot of success with this in the past.
Has to be the right music though! Usually instrumental, but not always. I've found that music can act as a kind of metronome for mood.
AngmarsKing701
Member
Fast Food Fables
Wrap them all together into a package of short stories with the fast food restaurant as the hub. The cashier actually collects bits of the character's histories as payment.
Conkersbadfurday
Member
I've had some success with it. Or it's gotten me 50 wordpress followers
And yeah, has to be instrumental. Thinking of grabbing LIndey Sterling's new album just to write to it.
Though oddly enough, I like to write to Boston. Something about their music thats' just...good to write to. Only lyriced stuff I'll write fiction for though.
FlowersisBritish
fleurs n'est pas britannique
I've totes thought about that before, but I am afraid I'd be too obsessed about how they're ordering food wrong, and there would be a huge undercurrent of the narrator(me) being an asshole because they held up the line. Also there's something about them all eating chicken that just sickens me as a person.
fredrancour
Member
The narrator can totally hate them for making his job harder. If you do it right maybe the reader will even agree with him that the customers suck horribly.
AngmarsKing701
Member
Running the Matrix. It all tastes like chicken.
Don't know if others are interested in TV writing, but the NBC Late Night Writers Workshop will accept applications again in early January.
I applied last year but only got to the semifinals. Working on an even stronger packet for this year.
I applied last year but only got to the semifinals. Working on an even stronger packet for this year.
Crash Station
Member
Got the first batch of sketches for my second book's cover. Yeah, I'm totally satisfied with this artist. Can't wait to see the final version.
In other news, just passed the 50k mark for my third book. I might actually be able to complete this before the end of the year. Will end up being a bit shorter than I was expecting, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't proud of it so far. Hopefully other people feel the same when it's released.
In other news, just passed the 50k mark for my third book. I might actually be able to complete this before the end of the year. Will end up being a bit shorter than I was expecting, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't proud of it so far. Hopefully other people feel the same when it's released.
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