Support NeoGAF

[SolVanderlyn]

I always thought that was a cool connection (definitely a visual callback, at the very least), but I wonder why Wily would exist as a Sigma lackey instead of trying to run the show?

X Hunters were trying to revive Zero, Zero and his virus is Wily's ultimate endgame.

 

[21XX]

Wily's objective in the X series is just to prove Zero is the absolute superior robot and little else. This including making him fight and defeat X. Highly doubt Wily is interested in the world's affairs unless he can use them to "awaken" Zero to his true self.

I don't think Wily is Sigma's lackey. They are just working together in order to get the most of both X (Which is Sigma's main interest) and Zero (Wily's main interest). Wily also built Sigma's body in X5, and possibly in X2 also.

Sergess' japanese dialogue in Mega Man X2 is basically a direct confirmation of him being Wily. Sadly, the script was butchered in the localization and all references were removed.



Makes sense. But wasn't the Zero series stated to happen during 22XX in official materials or something? Could be wrong on this.

Wait, were all of the Sigma bodies pre-built? I always thought that they ended up being built by Mavericks or kind of just... built themselves somehow.

Fuck. I love these games.

 

[Ishida]

Just in case there are people here who don't know about the Serges-Wily theory, a little bit of information. This is from the Japanese script, so disregard the localization.

-Serges' designer said that he used a "certain mad scientist" as a template.

-Serges refers to X as "Rockman X", when only very specific people like Dr. Cain refer to him as Rockman X.

-During the audio transmission from the X-Hunters to the Hunter Base, Serges momentarily refers to X as "Rock".

-When defeated a second time, Serges very specifically says "Am I to perish here? Defeated by Light’s memento robot again… regretful…". He is the only other character in the series to mention Dr. Light's name, and the way he mentions it, it seems they knew each other. Serges says that he was "defeated by Light's robot AGAIN". This is probably the biggest hint and the greatest confirmation. Note that he doesn't even say "Dr. Light", just "Light", like Wily would say.

-After being defeated, Sigma claims that Zero is "the last of Wi... Num...." which obviously means "Wily Numbers", as in robots created by Dr. Wily. How did Sigma gain such knowledge of the past? Well, he most definitely had Serges to thank for that...

-X2 is the first game where the boss refights happen in teleportation capsules, just like the ones Wily used back in the day. Coincidence? I don't think so.

Wait, were all of the Sigma bodies pre-built? I always thought that they ended up being built by Mavericks or kind of just... built themselves somehow.

Fuck. I love these games.

Depends on the game. Sigma's body in X2, while no official confirmation was offered, was most definitely built by the X-Hunters or Serges himself.

On X3, his body was built by Doppler.

On X4? Who knows. Pre-built? Wily?

On X5 his new bodies were built by Wily.

On X6 he was being repaired/rebuilt by either Isoc or Gate.

X7? Only god knows.

X8? Again, who knows. Maybe Lumines?

 

[TreIII]

I can't help but totally disagree with the first part of this post; dropping plotlines and not connecting Classic -> X is the greatest storytelling sin in the franchise. Especially with the way the X series was handled - Wily is hinted to be alive and active, Serges may or not have been Wily or related to Wily, Isoc was definitely Wily, and then woops! He's gone, never mentioned again. The alien thing should have been expanded upon as well, but it's not as big of a deal that it was dropped. Classic -> X series gap is just unacceptable.

If it ever got rebooted we'd see a new series though, I agree there.

Well, let's put it this way.

Imagine, if you will, if they had just written the X series as another "AU". Light and Wily were still a part of the X series backstory (because they made X and Zero), but the story doesn't have to concern itself without the extra baggage of trying to explain what happened to Blues, Rock, Roll, Duo, Dr. Cossack and etc., because those characters effectively didn't exist in this AU.

It would have been the same thing, and nothing of real value would have been lost. And considering the way the X series utilized the connection as it did, it might as well have been done this way. It'd also make sense why NOTHING pertaining to Wily's multiple attempts at world domination is seemingly documented, or else you might have thought that at least someone would be a bit more hesitant about making a new brand of weapons of mass destruction. Only THIS TIME, said weapons can actually think (and rebel) for themselves, instead of needing a mad scientist to do it for them.

 

[Magnet_Man]

Interesting. How does this work? I thought Zero takes place after X5?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mega_Man_Zero

This is that "in-fighting at Capcom" talk you'll hear us bring up once in occasionally.

IIRC, it goes after X8 / Command Mission time, Zero seals himself away to get rid of the virus (X6 scene), X fights Maverick Wars and eventually comes up with a cure via the Mother Elf. Dr. Weil comes along and corrupts the Mother Elf and she becomes the Dark Elf. Weil also finds Zero's body, removes Zero's consciousness and uses Zero's original body armed with the Dark Elf to become Omega. Ciel's ancestor makes a new body for Zero's consciousness to inhabit so he can assist X fight Weil and Omega during the Elf Wars.

This is Zero's body that you find in MMZero 1 and why Weil keeps calling you a fake.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Well, let's put it this way.

Imagine, if you will, if they had just written the X series as another "AU". Light and Wily were still a part of the X series backstory (because they made X and Zero), but the story doesn't have to concern itself without the extra baggage of trying to explain what happened to Blues, Rock, Roll, Duo, Dr. Cossack and etc., because those characters effectively didn't exist in this AU.

It would have been the same thing, and nothing of real value would have been lost. And considering the way the X series utilized the connection as it did, it might as well have been done this way. It'd also make sense why NOTHING pertaining to Wily's multiple attempts at world domination is seemingly documented, or else you might have thought that at least someone would be a bit more hesitant about making a new brand of weapons of mass destruction. Only THIS TIME, said weapons can actually think (and rebel) for themselves, instead of needing a mad scientist to do it for them.

That would have been a smarter move for the way it was handled. Personally, I think the actual connection is a better idea conceptually, and had potential to be great if it was handled well. Even just something like the Elf Wars from MMZ, which were told and not shown, would have been fine. We got slight hints, like Zero's blueprints in Power Battles and Roboenza sharing similarities with the Maverick Virus, but they were nothing more than hints. But it's all moot at this point unless Capcom miraculously decides to continue Classic or X again.

 

[Zero-ELEC]

Is there a Mega Man lore thread? I wish to discuss/be sad about ZX Advent's cliffhanger and how we'll never get anything resolving Master Thomas' plans. ;_;

Spoiler

Also I want to discuss how iX and X-Kai should totally be canon. Totally.

 

[Vex_]

Is there a Mega Man lore thread? I wish to discuss/be sad about ZX Advent's cliffhanger and how we'll never get anything resolving Master Thomas' plans. ;_;

Spoiler

Also I want to discuss how iX and X-Kai should totally be canon. Totally.

I was just looking for a lore thread. It makes me so sad that there is so much lore in the megaman universe(s) that will goto waste :c

 

[Magnet_Man]

There's a general in the Community tab and then there's this topic from earlier this week where I wasted my time...

 

[TreIII]

That would have been a smarter move for the way it was handled. Personally, I think the actual connection is a better idea conceptually, and had potential to be great if it was handled well. Even just something like the Elf Wars from MMZ, which were told and not shown, would have been fine. We got slight hints, like Zero's blueprints in Power Battles and Roboenza sharing similarities with the Maverick Virus, but they were nothing more than hints. But it's all moot at this point unless Capcom miraculously decides to continue Classic or X again.

A definitive yes, to the bolded! But of course, that end part would be the keywords!

Anyway...I have a sneaking suspicion that if any Rockman was going to get the nod to be revived, it's probably going to be Classic. A recent appearance in a major crossover game (Smash4), plus the focus seeming to be on the most recognizable and marketable version of the character, in general, seems to point to this much.

But the flipside is that I still can imagine what I said in a prior post happening. If Classic gets the nod, it's anyone's guess if the larger "Mega metaverse" will still be a factor at all. Considering that I remember a few Capcom execs hinting at the notion that "too many Mega Man series" was a part of what contributed to the series' fall from grace, I could definitely see X and the rest being either completely iced or relegated to cameos, at best.

Is there a Mega Man lore thread? I wish to discuss/be sad about ZX Advent's cliffhanger and how we'll never get anything resolving Master Thomas' plans. ;_;

Spoiler

Also I want to discuss how iX and X-Kai should totally be canon. Totally.

Well...

Spoiler

iX and X-Kai are canon, considering many sources consider the Megamissions content as such. You just won't ever see them in an actual game, more than likely...

 

[Vex_]

There's a general in the Community tab and then there's this topic from earlier this week where I wasted my time...

Thanks for that.

 

[poodaddy]

Excuse me? Did you just say that Zero has character flaws? And you think X was a perfect character? I'm reaching for a "not sure if serious" image...

Throughout the X series and Zero series, Zero has never done anything wrong and never made a mistake. He's also the character that everyone defers to for advice, support, or to just outright solve the problem. Him being sad at Iris's death is not a character flaw. That's being sad at a character dying.

How about the entirety of the Zero series? Zero is completely devoid of personality. He does everything flawlessly, he never hesitated at any point, never questioned any thing, the entire Resistance group is literally worthless without him, looks to him to solve every single one of their problems or dispose of whatever the current threat is, and is who Ciel turns to for emotional guidance to which his answer is always "I'll handle it" as he just kills everything in front of him.

Zero's so perfect and clean he squeaks.

X on the other hand, the very first line we hear from him in the very first game is him with no confidence and questioning his worth. Those are character flaws. After that his character constantly questions and regrets his actions for perpetuating the violence he wants to stop, but since that became his only character trait thanks to Inafune never giving any attention to the guy, his character never moved past that point across the 7 sequel games so he just became whiny and annoying.

That's the entire point of this topic. X and his series and its setting and its story had so much potential but all of it was wasted with Inafune's selfish and blatant nepotism being one of the primary factors.

Enjoy and like Zero more than X, sure, nothing wrong with that but claiming that X was perfect is outright wrong. One of the main reasons most people dislike X is because he never shuts up about his flaws since Inafune never gave him a chance to do anything else.

Ok chill man, seriously you're getting pretty heated over fictional characters here. I was referring to Zeros aggression and combative attitude as a character flaw and the fact that he murdered several innocent reploids when he was infected with the Sigma virus. From an ethics standpoint X has always seemed perfect and pure to me, that's what I was intending to get across. Good God man chill out lol. It's video games bro, enjoy them. I love Zero and I think he's a better character than X, you don't and that is cool dude. Seriously, have a beer haha. Great series that I wish would come back. I was just playing Maverick Hunter X on the Vita before hopping on here, there just aren't many games I can go back to so casually like that.

 

[lazygecko]

A definitive yes, to the bolded! But of course, that end part would be the keywords!

And the kind of situations where this actually turns out well seems so exceptionally rare to the degree that I feel uncomfortable with the prospect of even trying. I can do without the Mega Man equivalent of midichlorians.

It seems to me that fandoms of any long running fictional universe often have this misconception that the authors have this kind of big grand plan that's just waiting to be unveiled and finally reveal all the plot holes and gaps in all its prophetic grandeur. When the reality is that most of the creators are just making shit up as they go along.

 

[Magnet_Man]

Ok chill man, seriously you're getting pretty heated over fictional characters here. I was referring to Zeros aggression and combative attitude as a character flaw and the fact that he murdered several innocent reploids when he was infected with the Sigma virus. From an ethics standpoint X has always seemed perfect and pure to me, that's what I was intending to get across. Good God man chill out lol. It's video games bro, enjoy them. I love Zero and I think he's a better character than X, you don't and that is cool dude. Seriously, have a beer haha. Great series that I wish would come back. I was just playing Maverick Hunter X on the Vita before hopping on here, there just aren't many games I can go back to so casually like that.

You thought my post was heated? Um...weird. Me disagreeing with you and explaining it doesn't mean hostility, but if you took it that way I apologize. I certainly wasn't saying "No, stop liking Zero, the correct choice is to like X!"

It had to do with a misunderstanding of what a character flaw is. What you described are character traits. Flaws are, like their name implies, a problem with the character; something that is wrong or destructive to the character or the situation. Seeing how the character overcomes or copes with those flaws gives them interest or character arcs.

Zero's attitude and aggressiveness aren't flaws because they never get him or others into trouble; in fact it has always been shown to be the correct choice. Zero is confident, a realist, and doesn't hesitate to act on what he believes which makes him enjoyable to watch and control while X is often shown to be uncertain and kind of wishy washy which isn't very enjoyable to someone with a more leisurely interest in the series, especially when X was stuck at that point without getting a proper resolution to those flaws.

Again, I apologize if you felt I was being overly aggressive. It's just that those aspects of Zero are, by definition, not character flaws and I wanted to explain that.

 

[Boss Doggie]

X6 Zero's ending is stated not to be directly after X6's stuff but waaay more far to the future.

 

[Village]

I don't get this, why would someone with a Metal Gear avatar want a X's character assassinated?

There isn't enough character there to be assassinated.


He's evil now.

Alright. Whens Zero.

 

[Videoneon]

Anyway...I have a sneaking suspicion that if any Rockman was going to get the nod to be revived, it's probably going to be Classic. A recent appearance in a major crossover game (Smash4), plus the focus seeming to be on the most recognizable and marketable version of the character, in general, seems to point to this much.

But the flipside is that I still can imagine what I said in a prior post happening. If Classic gets the nod, it's anyone's guess if the larger "Mega metaverse" will still be a factor at all. Considering that I remember a few Capcom execs hinting at the notion that "too many Mega Man series" was a part of what contributed to the series' fall from grace, I could definitely see X and the rest being either completely iced or relegated to cameos, at best.

I would have to agree that all of this is plausible, to my great disappointment. I remember those "too many series" comments and since, were the franchise as a whole to be revived, Capcom probably couldn't be assed to give more than one series its due, they'll probably just go with Classic. Rumors of new media production (from last year) notwithstanding.

X and Battle Network being casualties would be a huge loss IMO. I've been of the opinion that there should be a way to bring BN back...

 

[CragMan241]

X6 Zero's ending is stated not to be directly after X6's stuff but waaay more far to the future.

IIRC, it was even stated as the "ending" to the X series by someone at Capcom.

They even went on to say they have a story for connecting Classic to X, but we're obviously never going to see that.

 

[SephLuis]

Thanks to this topic, I have read a lot of Megaman Lore that I had forgotten or didn't knew.

I kinda wish now Capcom does a Hyrule Historia to clear a lot of things up.

 

[Cheerilee]

Only one thing bothers me about it and that is the unexplained gap between the classic series and the X series. Do you have an explanation? I've heard a few ideas like Zero murdering everyone or Wily nuking everything, but none were completely satisfying.

And that's why Megaman 9 and Megaman 10 were frustrating, because they existed purely as fan service, and not to bridge the long awaited gap between the two games.

Megaman Classic only exists/existed in X's mind.

X was sleeping for 100 years, while his pod system "tested" him to ensure that he wasn't capable of going maverick (and if he did, it would abort him). He was sleeping, but his mind must have been awake, dreaming, for there to be something to test. One hundred years/games of Megaman, all playing out in X's head.

Now you can wonder why X dreamed he was made by Light/Wily when he was only made by Light, why Roll in his dream had long blonde hair, why he eventually started to dream about Zero, and why X's dreams reset back to 8-bit after they started getting a little too real.

 

[SoulUnison]

What X game was it that had the weird square shaped arm cannon?

I always called it the "Dust Buster."

EDIT: It was X3.

 

[chaobreaker]

And that's why Megaman 9 and Megaman 10 were frustrating, because they existed purely as fan service, and not to bridge the long awaited gap between the two games.

I would rather not see whatever cataclysmic events that killed off all the happy-go-lucky classic characters.

Now that I think about it, maybe Mega Man and friends might have outlived Dr. Light and Wily. They were already old men when the series started.

 

[poodaddy]

You thought my post was heated? Um...weird. Me disagreeing with you and explaining it doesn't mean hostility, but if you took it that way I apologize. I certainly wasn't saying "No, stop liking Zero, the correct choice is to like X!"

It had to do with a misunderstanding of what a character flaw is. What you described are character traits. Flaws are, like their name implies, a problem with the character; something that is wrong or destructive to the character or the situation. Seeing how the character overcomes or copes with those flaws gives them interest or character arcs.

Zero's attitude and aggressiveness aren't flaws because they never get him or others into trouble; in fact it has always been shown to be the correct choice. Zero is confident, a realist, and doesn't hesitate to act on what he believes which makes him enjoyable to watch and control while X is often shown to be uncertain and kind of wishy washy which isn't very enjoyable to someone with a more leisurely interest in the series, especially when X was stuck at that point without getting a proper resolution to those flaws.

Again, I apologize if you felt I was being overly aggressive. It's just that those aspects of Zero are, by definition, not character flaws and I wanted to explain that.

Traits can be flaws though, and it is somewhat relative. My wife would tell you that my aggressive nature is a character flaw for myself, as she doesn't care for it, but I've never been arrested for aggressive behavior and I've never really hurt anyone so to you it's not a flaw at all. I mean I'm more in agreement with you on that, but I don't necessarily think my wife's wrong either. To her, my tendency towards aggressive problem solving and debate is a flaw, whereas I think her meager mousey behavior and fear of conflict is a flaw while some would just call her "too sweet for that stuff." My point here is that flaws are somewhat subjective, and X, to me at least, has always been the Cyclops to Zero's Wolverine. I get what you're saying about X though, he's definitely got a Shinji complex, and it's one of my favorite traits about him, that tendency towards pacifism; I just never considered that a character flaw. Still don't, I think X is just like a guy who joins the Military and realizes that, while he's talented enough, he's just not cut out for a violent line of work and ends up getting out, becoming a pacifist, joining the Peace Corp, retiring with his new wife Spirit Pom that he met while volunteering in Thailand, and starting a goat farm on a Scottish mountain or some shit. I love thinking of X as a goat farmer.....wait what was I talking about?

Gaf artists, your mission is clear: Mega Man X; goat farm; Scotland. Please, I need this.

 

[SkyOdin]

Depends on the game. Sigma's body in X2, while no official confirmation was offered, was most definitely built by the X-Hunters or Serges himself.

On X3, his body was built by Doppler.

On X4? Who knows. Pre-built? Wily?

On X5 his new bodies were built by Wily.

On X6 he was being repaired/rebuilt by either Isoc or Gate.

X7? Only god knows.

X8? Again, who knows. Maybe Lumines?

In my headcanon, the original Sigma and his virus were destroyed in X5, and the subsequent three were all copies that deluded themselves into thinking they were the real thing. Gate made a Sigma clone that was clearly a half-built zombie at best. Everything that happens in X6 is entirely the result of Gate's actions anyways. Gate being killed by a failed copy Sigma that shared Gate's delusions feels more appropriate than Sigma somehow actually being behind everything. The Sigmas that appear in X7 and X8 have an easy explanation: Next-Generation Reploids with Copy abilities. You fight an entire army of fake Sigmas in X8, and there is very little proof that the big boss one isn't a fake either. Sigma wasn't even the final boss in X8, and he was supposedly beaten for good there. X5 really is the end of the Sigma Virus plotline anyways, so it feels most appropriate for that to be the end of Sigma.

X6 Zero's ending is stated not to be directly after X6's stuff but waaay more far to the future.

Yeah. In Zero's X8 ending, he makes a reference to how now might be a good time for him to leave things in X's hands, which seems to be a clear allusion to his X6 ending. So the X6 ending that leads into Megaman Zero is clearly something that was kept as canon for the subsequent X games.

The really big plothole in the X series is the ordering of Mega Man X8 and Command Mission. That's just a mess. Command Mission takes place in 22XX, while X8 supposedly takes place in 21XX, but there are several plot points in Command Mission that only make sense if it takes place before X8. It is a clear case of two development teams not communicating properly.

 

[Boss Doggie]

I thought CM was somewhat of an "international" mission since Signas wasn't around

 

[Azure J]

At this point, I wouldn't at all be surprised if, by the time Capcom is seriously ready to launch MM again, anything pertaining to the previous "expanded universe" timeline(s)/lore is expunged in order to give the brand a clean slate, and you wouldn't need to have read Zan's in-depth write ups to get an idea on what's going on.

I just nostalgia'd so hard. :lol

I've always felt like a modern Megaman series needs to do more to consolidate ideas and themes around one character (the Megaman blue bomber archetype) and a good method to do so would be to take hints from the Tezuka-verse/Astro Boy proper (and hints of the Ariga Megaman Megamix/Gigamix universes). Just define roles and tones but make sure that everything that happens is just relevant to a core gang of folks that are expected (re: Megaman himself and the Dr. Light gang; Wily antagonists) with the more popular characters over the series' tenure being made into reoccurring bonuses to play or just spot in a crowd.

Spoiler

We've spoken about this before, but this is a post for GAF.

The series has potential and a surprisingly fun lore to pull from. The issue comes in introducing people to it all without confusing them from the jump.

 

[Jaeger]

What X game was it that had the weird square shaped arm cannon?

I always called it the "Dust Buster."

EDIT: It was X3.

You say weird but I think you meant "awesome".

 

[Reset]

In my headcanon, the original Sigma and his virus were destroyed in X5,

In the Zero series wasn't the Mother Elf that erased the Sigma virus?

I thought Fourth/Force is different from Ultimate

The Ultimate armor looks like a modified color swap of the Fourth armor. Oh and speaking of ultimate armors, I was always a fan of Zero's ultimate armor in Command Mission. Since it reminded me of Bass + Treble. X's ultimate armor in that game looks awful.

 

[SkyOdin]

In the Zero series wasn't the Mother Elf that erased the Sigma virus?

I can't recall if they specifically mention the Sigma virus in the Zero games. Sigma is officially dead as of X8, and the Sigma Virus doesn't appear in X7 or X8, so there really isn't any proof of the Sigma virus lasting past X5 that I can recall.

There are new viruses though, such as the Nightmare Virus. The Nightmare Virus in particular was pretty much an evil prototype Cyber-Elf: a group of non-physical entities related to the "souls" of Reploids that are commanded by a Mother Nightmare that was built based on Zero. It isn't official, but I somewhat consider that the transition point from the Maverick Wars into a distinct new phase. Following X6, the main new antagonists, the Next Generation Reploids, are pretty much immune to viruses anyways. There are a few signs that point towards the Next Generation Reploids being connected to Albert and Weil as well. So I sometimes consider X6 onwards to be the start of the Elf Wars.

 

[Man God]

Has anyone ever figured out the exact math behind the Enigma/Space Shuttle chance of success in X5?

What a weird direction for the series to go.

 

[Boss Doggie]

The Ultimate armor looks like a modified color swap of the Fourth armor. Oh and speaking of ultimate armors, I was always a fan of Zero's ultimate armor in Command Mission. Since it reminded me of Bass + Treble. X's ultimate armor in that game looks awful.

Ahh right, it was a recolor.

the first thing that came to my mind in CM's ultimate armor was gundam seed lol