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[nemiroff]

FFR was created to gain performance

Yeah we agree about that of course. My simple point was only that FFR wouldn't be introduced in the first place if there was no light physics flaws in the headset configuration and full clarity extended to the edges. If it wasn’t so we would use FFR on our monitors as well so to speak

 

[midnightAI]

Yeah we agree about that of course. My simple point was only that FFR wouldn't be introduced in the first place if there was no light physics flaws in the headset configuration and full clarity extended to the edges. If it wasn’t so we would use FFR on our monitors as well so to speak

I think that's where we disagree though, the lenses have nothing to do with it, FFR would exist whether we can see clearly across the screen or not.
We kind of can do it for flat screen gaming (Variable Rate Shading) but the big differentiator is with a VR headset you can keep your eyes still and move your head around, on a monitor your eyes move around while you keep your head still mostly (or rather you move your head more in VR, that's where ETFR comes in as then you don't have to move your head as much so it does have the extra benefit of being more natural to how we normally use our eyes/head)

I get where you are coming from in that if the edges are blurry anyway then why not use FFR but that's more of a coincidence rather than FFR being derived from how lenses work.

 

[Rudius]

From what people are saying, it's a small increase. Like only a 20% jump in power.

The XR2 Gen 1 of Quest 2 is based on the snapdragon 865. The XR2 Gen 2 of Quest 3 will be based on the snapdragon 8 Gen 2.

Confusing names, but based on smartphone comparisons it should be between 2x and 2.5x improvement for the GPU and no more than 1.5x for the CPU.

I expect the overall upgrade to be similar to PS4 amateur to PS4 Pro, if they don't use eye-tracking.

 

[Rudius]

The problem with fixed foveated rendering is that your eyes move.

 

[midnightAI]

The XR2 Gen 1 of Quest 2 is based on the snapdragon 865. The XR2 Gen 2 of Quest 3 will be based on the snapdragon 8 Gen 2.

Confusing names, but based on smartphone comparisons it should be between 2x and 2.5x improvement for the GPU and no more than 1.5x for the CPU.

I expect the overall upgrade to be similar to PS4 amateur to PS4 Pro, if they don't use eye-tracking.

You of course won't get quite as much performance as you think because the resolution will increase which in itself takes a performance hit

 

[XXL]

Full color pass-through is awesome.

 

[mckmas8808]

The XR2 Gen 1 of Quest 2 is based on the snapdragon 865. The XR2 Gen 2 of Quest 3 will be based on the snapdragon 8 Gen 2.

Confusing names, but based on smartphone comparisons it should be between 2x and 2.5x improvement for the GPU and no more than 1.5x for the CPU.

I expect the overall upgrade to be similar to PS4 amateur to PS4 Pro, if they don't use eye-tracking.

I think you are spot on here since we know they aren't using eye-tracking or FFR. Plus the CTO of Meta said this......





The way he laughs shows that he knows MetaQuest3 isn't close and will never ever be close to PCVR quality in graphics.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I think you are spot on here since we know they aren't using eye-tracking or FFR. Plus the CTO of Meta said this......





The way he laughs shows that he knows MetaQuest3 isn't close and will never ever be close to PCVR quality in graphics.

Those side by sides remind me of comparisons way back in the 8/16/32bit days.

 

[mckmas8808]

Those side by sides remind me of comparisons way back in the 8/16/32bit days.

And that's on a computer screen. Imagine what the difference is like in the headsets. I truly wonder what some of these Quest 2 owning video game journalists will think once they receive their PSVR2s.

 

[CrustyBritches]

PC has plenty of good looking racing games you can use with Quest 2 or Quest 3. It's retarded to compare a mobile chipset from a $299 device from 2020 to a $950-1050 monstrously-sized console setup from 2023.

 

[midnightAI]

I think you are spot on here since we know they aren't using eye-tracking or FFR.

Don't you mean ETFR? They will be using FFR (well, game by game basis but I reckon most will use it)

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

And that's on a computer screen. Imagine what the difference is like in the headsets. I truly wonder what some of these Quest 2 owning video game journalists will think once they receive their PSVR2s.

Probably the same when they get a Quest 3, outside of PS exclusives.

 

[Rudius]

You of course won't get quite as much performance as you think because the resolution will increase which in itself takes a performance hit

I bet it won't go higher than 2160x2160, the same resolution as Pico 4.

 

[sachos]

Pretty disappointing with no eye tracking or foveated rendering, i wonder if it will have HDR.

 

[mckmas8808]

PC has plenty of good looking racing games you can use with Quest 2 or Quest 3. It's retarded to compare a mobile chipset from a $299 device from 2020 to a $950-1050 monstrously-sized console setup from 2023.

I think it's equally stupid to compare the price of PSVR2 to Meta Quest 2. But that hasn't stopped the media and many gamers from doing it

 

[poppabk]

Pretty disappointing with no eye tracking or foveated rendering, i wonder if it will have HDR.

It has foveated rendering.

 

[Raonak]

Also, the idea that these VR/AR headsets will be used for business/productivity is a bad angle to take imo. I see why facebook and apple are trying this angle, because thats where the most money is.
but it's not gonna succeed because you need to actually beat the efficiency and precision of keyboard+mouse. You have to legitimately make it more productive than what they already have.
Not more fun. But more productive. And that's not taking into account the software problem.

 

[CrustyBritches]

I think it's equally stupid to compare the price of PSVR2 to Meta Quest 2. But that hasn't stopped the media and many gamers from doing it

He knows what he was doing: trolling. He's fully aware that you can connect your Quest 2, or upcoming Quest 3, to a capable PC and experience some really great visuals. Even on hardware from 4-5yrs ago.

 

[midnightAI]

I bet it won't go higher than 2160x2160, the same resolution as Pico 4.

True, but that's still a fair bit over Quest 2 resolution

 

[sachos]

It has foveated rendering.

How can it have foveated rendering without eye tracking?

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

How can it have foveated rendering without eye tracking?

foveated rendering without eye tracking is basically worthless. it can still have it, just has near zero perf improvements

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I feel like Quest 3 will mostly be a cost-saving Quest headset to increase the margins, rather than being a significant improvement. Lack of eye tracking is a big misstep given the Mobile GPU it uses it could stand to benefit significantly from it

 

[DenchDeckard]

doesn't the quest 3 literally let me hook it up to a pc and get graphics that are amazing as well?

So I get the best of both worlds don't I?

 

[poppabk]

foveated rendering without eye tracking is basically worthless. it can still have it, just has near zero perf improvements

What? Where are you getting this from? Just having foveated rendering gets you the biggest performance boost and then eye tracking allows an incremental boost on top of that by allowing for even more restricted foveated rendering.
You can have fixed foveated rendering because we spend most of our time focusing in a small region in front of us, plus fresnel lenses become increasingly blurry anyway as you get out of that region.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

What? Where are you getting this from. Just having foveated rendering gets you the biggest performance boost and then eye tracking allows an incremental boost on top of that by allowing for even more restricted foveated rendering.
You can have fixed foveated rendering because we spend most of our time focusing in a small region in front of us, plus fresnel lenses become increasingly blurry anyway as you get out of that region.

You have it backwards

See what the Song in the Smoke Devs have to say about it:

 

[poppabk]

You have it backwards

See what the Song in the Smoke Devs have to say about it:

He doesn't say anything about performance increase. Quality increase for sure, depending on how harsh you make fixed foveated rendering the drop in resolution will become apparent.
Here is Meta's data:

Here's The Exact Performance Benefit Of Foveated Rendering On Quest Pro

Quest Pro supports Eye Tracked Foveated Rendering, but exactly how much does it improve performance? If you’re not familiar with the term, eye tracked foveated rendering (ETFR) is a technique where only the region of the display you’re currently looking at is rendered in full resolution, thus...

uploadvr.com

FFR 34-43%, ETFR 36%-52%
He also refers to Sony data but the link doesn't actually reference that data but it is listed in the article as:
FFR 60%, ETFR 72%.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

He doesn't say anything about performance increase. Quality increase for sure, depending on how harsh you make fixed foveated rendering the drop in resolution will become apparent.
Here is Meta's data:

http://[URL]https://uploadvr.com/quest-pro-foveated-rendering-performance/

[/URL]
FFR 34-43%, ETFR 36%-52%
He also refers to Sony data but the link doesn't actually reference that data but it is listed in the article as:
FFR 60%, ETFR 72%.

Perf and quality improvements go hand in hand, they are two sides of the same coin

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

doesn't the quest 3 literally let me hook it up to a pc and get graphics that are amazing as well?

So I get the best of both worlds don't I?

Sort of yes.

 

[reinking]

I think Meta are about to run into a wall, wherein people with the Quest 2 won't be upgrading to the Quest 3 this early. It's too expensive. I know I certainly won't be. That's part of the problem with the early tech cycle - it advances so quickly that people get left behind after their buy in. Consoles space themselves out roughly 6-8 years, which is plenty of time to get your money's worth, and for developers to settle in. Quest 2 won't be three years old when the Quest 3 launches. At these prices, releasing this year, I suspect Quest 3 will be a sales disappointment.

..until he cuts support for Quest 2.

(yes, I know PSVR is in the same boat but as you said, console cycles are a bit longer)

 

[CrustyBritches]

He doesn't say anything about performance increase. Quality increase for sure, depending on how harsh you make fixed foveated rendering the drop in resolution will become apparent.
Here is Meta's data:

Here's The Exact Performance Benefit Of Foveated Rendering On Quest Pro

Quest Pro supports Eye Tracked Foveated Rendering, but exactly how much does it improve performance? If you’re not familiar with the term, eye tracked foveated rendering (ETFR) is a technique where only the region of the display you’re currently looking at is rendered in full resolution, thus...

uploadvr.com

FFR 34-43%, ETFR 36%-52%
He also refers to Sony data but the link doesn't actually reference that data but it is listed in the article as:
FFR 60%, ETFR 72%.

So on Quest Pro ETFR saves an additional 3-19% GPU performance over FFR when using FFR set to Level 1 and ETFR on any setting. It's something, I suppose.

SadlyItsBradley did an interview with the CEO of a leading OLED display company and the guy basically said that you get most of the benefit of foveated rendering without eye tracking since you usually turn your head when you look at things anyway. This is of course true for the vast majority of things, especially with gaming. I've been trying to think of some exceptions in gaming and the best I could come up with is in a precision driving scenario when glancing at the mirrors. If you really strain your eyes to look far into your peripheral vision on most headsets you're going to end up looking at the plastic casing surrounding the lenses.

 

[AJUMP23]

For good or bad -probably bad- Meta is two steps ahead of the rest on the VR space. Kinda logical considering the R&D investments they made.

Palmer Lucky and Carmack really built a huge advantage. Carmack was instrumental in reducing latency.

 

[Techies]

He doesn't say anything about performance increase. Quality increase for sure, depending on how harsh you make fixed foveated rendering the drop in resolution will become apparent.
Here is Meta's data:

http://[URL]https://uploadvr.com/quest-pro-foveated-rendering-performance/

[/URL]
FFR 34-43%, ETFR 36%-52%
He also refers to Sony data but the link doesn't actually reference that data but it is listed in the article as:
FFR 60%, ETFR 72%.

You cannot have a quality increase without additional performance headroom.

 

[E-Cat]

The problem with fixed foveated rendering is that your eyes move.

Yeah seriously, what’s even the point

 

[E-Cat]

Pass through vr porn in the truth.

Pass-through deepfakes are gonna be a trip

 

[Ronin_7]

Hopefully OLED HDR

 

[Darko]

Hopefully OLED HDR

Please. Zuckerberg

 

[Buggy Loop]

Hopefully OLED HDR

It’s rumoured to be LCD actually.

Everything is a trade off in VR.

Pancake lenses dim the display brightness. But they make headsets much less bulky than with fresnel lenses and don’t have the god rays.

Oled are less bright displays, so they become a bad combination with pancake lenses. This PSVR 2 using fresnel.

Micro-OLED are much brighter, thus we see them with pancake lenses in the upcoming expensive headsets.

 

[poppabk]

It’s rumoured to be LCD actually.

Everything is a trade off in VR.

Pancake lenses dim the display brightness. But they make headsets much less bulky than with fresnel lenses and don’t have the god rays.

Oled are less bright displays, so they become a bad combination with pancake lenses. This PSVR 2 using fresnel.

Micro-OLED are much brighter, thus we see them with pancake lenses in the upcoming expensive headsets.

If we could get some kind of local dimming QLED with pancake lenses, I would be happy with that. I don't need infinite contrast but would like something better than the Quest 2s LCD.

 

[nemiroff]

foveated rendering without eye tracking is basically worthless. it can still have it, just has near zero perf improvements

That's not even remotely true.

If you have a PCVR headset with OpenXR compatibility (most of them) you can even try it out yourself with OpenXR Tool and see how it affects performance (significantly so).

Yeah seriously, what’s even the point

To save performance by reducing resolution in the areas of the lens that in effect doesn't have full clarity/"resolution" anyway. It can ruin image quality though if used too aggressively. A proper dev would use dynamic foveation adjustment for best result. Here's a snippet from the best practices from the Quest headsets (the white areas are where foveation with eye-tracking is the most effective SO-TO-SPEAK):

Foveation Example Images​

In the following images, the resolution in the center white areas is native: every pixel of the texture will be computed independently by the GPU. However, in the red areas, only 1/2 of the pixels will be calculated, 1/4 for the green areas, 1/8 for the blue areas, and 1/16 for the magenta tiles. The missing pixels will be interpolated from the calculated pixels at resolve time, when the GPU stores the result of its computation in general memory.

 

[MR ARCADE FOREVER]

Fuck Facebook

 

[mckmas8808]

It’s rumoured to be LCD actually.

Everything is a trade off in VR.

Pancake lenses dim the display brightness. But they make headsets much less bulky than with fresnel lenses and don’t have the god rays.

Oled are less bright displays, so they become a bad combination with pancake lenses. This PSVR 2 using fresnel.

Micro-OLED are much brighter, thus we see them with pancake lenses in the upcoming expensive headsets.

Thanks for explaining this so easily.

 

[E-Cat]

Everything is a trade off in VR.

Pancake lenses dim the display brightness. But they make headsets much less bulky than with fresnel lenses and don’t have the god rays.

Oled are less bright displays, so they become a bad combination with pancake lenses. This PSVR 2 using fresnel.

Micro-OLED are much brighter, thus we see them with pancake lenses in the upcoming expensive headsets.

What about aspherical lenses?

 

[Klik]

We really need some 500$ foveated rendering capable VR headset with at least 2400x2400 res per eye.

Foveated rendering needs to be integrated in every VR game..

 

[RJMacready73]

Despite whatever you might feel, right now Meta is the best bet for getting real developers to VR, not Sony, PSVR 2 has some niche shovelware lineup right now.

It's going to take mass acceptance for VR to grow.

Resident Evil8, GT7, Horizon, No Man's Sky... Shovelware....

 

[SLB1904]

Resident Evil8, GT7, Horizon, No Man's Sky... Shovelware....

Leave him alone. He's trying to make himself feel better.

 

[MasterCornholio]

I truly wonder what some of these Quest 2 owning video game journalists will think once they receive their PSVR2s.

Sony clean VR.

 

[systemr123]

PC has plenty of good looking racing games you can use with Quest 2 or Quest 3. It's retarded to compare a mobile chipset from a $299 device from 2020 to a $950-1050 monstrously-sized console setup from 2023.

Nice argument, first of all, quest 2 costs 399 and when compared to the console setup maybe you want to include the 2000 dollar pc you’ll need and still have a smaller fov, resolution, lcd screen, no eye tracking and foveated rendering etc.

 

[Darius87]

He doesn't say anything about performance increase. Quality increase for sure, depending on how harsh you make fixed foveated rendering the drop in resolution will become apparent.
Here is Meta's data:

http://[URL]https://uploadvr.com/quest-pro-foveated-rendering-performance/

[/URL]
FFR 34-43%, ETFR 36%-52%
He also refers to Sony data but the link doesn't actually reference that data but it is listed in the article as:
FFR 60%, ETFR 72%.

the GPU time saving depends on how intense GPU time is we won't see big savings with ETFR on indie games because theyr not GPU intense PS5 can render at 90FPS without ETFR it only makes more stable i guess we would see at full glory if FPS would be unlocked but it's not good idea in VR.

 

[Teletraan1]

That is mixed reality of colour you bigot.

 

[Buggy Loop]

What about aspherical lenses?

Can’t say I know much about those are they are extremely rare, but from what I gather :

It removes the fresnel ridge and god ray problems, has no impact on brightness, still requires a big focal distance so the headsets are as big as fresnel solutions, they are very expensive and heavy. I think only the Varjo headset has this.

The future is clearly micro-OLED/micro-LED + pancake when prices become reasonable.

There’s the Oculus prototype with holographic lenses which are don’t know much about and probably not ready for consumers until a long time for cost reasons. Has super small form factor, high resolution, no optic distorsion, address the focal distance. Eventually this is the way to glass form factor headsets.