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[Syphon Filter]

lmao your sources are nothing, why do you think 30m units are still sold if there were supply issues on Sony? their just creating this "chips" shortage to justify their increase while it was all scalpers buying all those consoles.

xbox has already confirmed this games are coming until the end of 2023:

• Age of Empire 4
• Forza Motorsport (8)
• Starfield
• Redfall
• Hellblade 2
• The Last Case of Benedict Fox
• Stalker 2 (time exclusive)
• ARK 2 (time exclusive)
• Warhammer 40K Darktide (Time Exc.)

Ghostwire Tokyo will also be heading to xbox this year, and what does playstation have to offer yet? another spider man sequel? that ain't even a console seller game

ABK acquistion would probably go this year and this would mean day one gamepass CoD/WoW and other games that they own, your playstation VR is a niche market wouldn't make a dent on consoles platform. And we know multi plat games like CoD is what a real console seller game is not some first party "sequel" game again LOL

All those games are on PC too.

 

[Gamerguy84]

PS5 has been killing it with software since launch. Any gamer getting it right now has a lot of hi quality games to catch up on.

With PSVR 2 coming next month that only gets better. I hope they can keep this pace up through the generation.

I do have PC gamepass also. I tend to only play the PS exclusives though because I have limited time.

 

[poppabk]

1. The majority of XGP users won't buy the game. Why would they after all when it's available on GP day one.
2. 5 million on PC is realistic. It'll likely happen unless the game is a major flop (which I doubt). But is 5 million enough? I doubt it. Bethesda's last game was Skyrim, which sold more than 30 million copies 2 generations ago. If Starfield sells only 5-6 million copies in 2023, fuck!

Sony's big games are selling 20 million copies on PS alone left, right, and center. Starfield is now Xbox's biggest game, releasing on Xbox as well as PC. Anything less than 20 million copies (or 20 million new Gamepass subscribers) would be a big loss for them.

If they sold 20 million copies it would mean gamepass is a failure - and gamepass is their big bet for gaming as a whole - so huge numbers for Starfield would be, ironically, a failure for them. They also dont need 20 million new subs, just to continue a general upward trend. Netflix never saw a huge jump in subscribers just a general increasing upward trend. What is important is that a lot of current gamepass subscribers play the game and that it keeps subscriber growth from stalling.

 

[nial]

This is most interesting to me.



It shows a distrust in Sonys digital solutions vs Microsoft. And a brand loyalty to the point they will forsake games, because they aren't on thier PS5.

This is nothing new though and you can see it daily here on NEOGaf.

For sure for single player one and done games,

Not so much when it cones to the actually fun games Pol want to keep playing

In the end this proves PS fanboys will be PS fanhoyss and gaming fans will go where the games are.

Two worst posts I've ever seen on GAF.

Ghostwire Tokyo will also be heading to xbox this year, and what does playstation have to offer yet? another spider man sequel? that ain't even a console seller game

And the most delusional one I've seen here.

 

[Crayon]

A good number of Xboxes might have sold to people who couldn't get PS5s. Who knows if it's enough to affect these numbers, assuming they're even accurate in the first place.

 

[Woopah]

Kinda werid how they didn;t split out the Switch SKUs, but did it for all the others.

No, it doesn't.

That'd have to be a different type of market study that would show total console sales (PS5, Series X, Series S) for this generation and the previous generation (PS4 vs. Xbox One).

From this data, we can't accurately predict if, for a particular company, the market shrank or not. However, one can surmise that the UK console market expanded for PS5 and shrank for Xbox, but as I said, not accurately and/or confidently because we don't have total console sales.

This doesn't tell us anything about the sales of any platform. We can only use this data to look at user behaviour in 2022.

lmao your sources are nothing, why do you think 30m units are still sold if there were supply issues on Sony? their just creating this "chips" shortage to justify their increase while it was all scalpers buying all those consoles.

xbox has already confirmed this games are coming until the end of 2023:

• Age of Empire 4
• Forza Motorsport (8)
• Starfield
• Redfall
• Hellblade 2
• The Last Case of Benedict Fox
• Stalker 2 (time exclusive)
• ARK 2 (time exclusive)
• Warhammer 40K Darktide (Time Exc.)

Ghostwire Tokyo will also be heading to xbox this year, and what does playstation have to offer yet? another spider man sequel? that ain't even a console seller game

ABK acquistion would probably go this year and this would mean day one gamepass CoD/WoW and other games that they own, your playstation VR is a niche market wouldn't make a dent on consoles platform. And we know multi plat games like CoD is what a real console seller game is not some first party "sequel" game again LOL

If there's no supply issues, there aren't any scalpers.

Those numbers are very surprising. I find it hard to believe that there is already a significant amount of people that own both a Series X and a PS5. So if you own a Series X and its not your daily driver..then what is? Playstation 4 maybe? Perhaps a PC? Same goes with PS5 digital.

Its looking at all consoles, not just Series and PS5. Someone could own one of them but also own a PS4, Switch or Xbox One.

 

[Heisenberg007]

If they sold 20 million copies it would mean gamepass is a failure - and gamepass is their big bet for gaming as a whole - so huge numbers for Starfield would be, ironically, a failure for them. They also dont need 20 million new subs, just to continue a general upward trend. Netflix never saw a huge jump in subscribers just a general increasing upward trend.

Sorry, I disagree with your assessment.

Suppose there was no Gamepass, and Starfield released on Xbox/PC, and sold 20 million copies. That'd have been a success. Now in a post-GP world, they need to make the same or more money. Otherwise, in terms of lost opportunity cost, it'd be a failure. That money could either come from new subscribers or game sales revenue.

And also, although I don't agree with or believe Phil when he says it, Gamepass increases game sales according to him. So more sales of Starfield should be expected at the bare minimum.

What is important is that a lot of current gamepass subscribers play the game and that it keeps subscriber growth from stalling.

This is a vanity metric at the end of the day. User engagement or total number of players for a game will always be a vanity metric.

 

[poppabk]

Sorry, I disagree with your assessment.

Suppose there was no Gamepass, and Starfield released on Xbox/PC, and sold 20 million copies. That'd have been a success. Now in a post-GP world, they need to make the same or more money. Otherwise, in terms of lost opportunity cost, it'd be a failure. That money could either come from new subscribers or game sales revenue.

And also, although I don't agree with or believe Phil when he says it, Gamepass increases game sales according to him. So more sales of Starfield should be expected at the bare minimum.

This is a vanity metric at the end of the day. User engagement or total number of players for a game will always be a vanity metric.

Subscriptions and one off game sales are two different things. They only need to make up the 20 million x profit (minus whatever they actually do sell) over the lifetime that Starfield is relevant to subscribers. There is a reason that everything from food delivery, to tv, to games is going subscription based. It brings in more money and more reliably long term.
MS I am pretty certain would happily trade 2 or 3 game sales for one subscription.

 

[reksveks]

Suppose there was no Gamepass, and Starfield released on Xbox/PC, and sold 20 million copies. That'd have been a success. Now in a post-GP world, they need to make the same or more money. Otherwise, in terms of lost opportunity cost, it'd be a failure. That money could either come from new subscribers or game sales revenue.

Microsoft has sacrificed first party revenue/profits for user growth and revenue from other transaction on the store which then makes comparison between the old model and the new one very difficult.

This is going to take some time to play out for a new release.

 

[Fatmanp]

I guarantee that the vast majority of people who answered that way play twi games. Its the UK so you know what they are thus making the exclusives a pointless discussion point.

Its sheer brand power and marketing rights for the two biggest games. I bet if this poll was run in 2010 the 360 would show similar preference vs PS3 mainly due to brand power and marketing rights for those two games being with MS.

 

[SLB1904]

Two worst posts I've ever seen on GAF.

And the most delusional one I've seen here.

Nicheman 2 strikes again

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

I have both a XSX and a PS5, I play the XSX far more.

Same. Of course, I play Switch more than both of them put together.

 

[ReBurn]

PS5 is a great system and I really enjoy it. I've really spent more time with it now that the new PS Plus makes so many PS5 games available.

I don't know that I really have a main platform any more since I play more games on subscription services than I buy. Xbox became my primary platform when One X released since it really was the best way besides PC to play most multiplat games once it released. This gen has been weird for me because outside of a few games I haven't been interested in new stuff. I can count on one hand the number of new games I've wanted to play to completion in the last two years. So I bounce back and forth between consoles waiting for something to capture my attention.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Sorry, I disagree with your assessment.

Suppose there was no Gamepass, and Starfield released on Xbox/PC, and sold 20 million copies. That'd have been a success. Now in a post-GP world, they need to make the same or more money. Otherwise, in terms of lost opportunity cost, it'd be a failure. That money could either come from new subscribers or game sales revenue.

And also, although I don't agree with or believe Phil when he says it, Gamepass increases game sales according to him. So more sales of Starfield should be expected at the bare minimum.

This is a vanity metric at the end of the day. User engagement or total number of players for a game will always be a vanity metric.

What is a vanity metric? Aren't sales a vanity metric when you don't know what they sold at? People just imagine that when they hear 10 million sales it's 10 mill x 60 dollars but that is not the case. Last of us 2 has been like 5 to 10 pounds a copy brand new for the best part of a year now in the UK.

I'm sure Sony would take rather take 10 pounds a month and keep monthly active users logging in, checking digital sales, being engaged with the platform and buying content for them to make profit on than one 10 pound sales that the console then gets left collecting dust until fifa 23 or cod launches. It's not vanity its just you're not looking at the wider picture at all. Too narrow minded.

A subscription services keeps your customers and fans engaged in the eco system and your console.

Why do you think cinemas are pushing for more monthly subscriptions to see as many films as you want? Because it gets bums on seats, shows interest and some percentages of customers will buy popcorn etc that rakes the money in.

Like digital shite on a consoles store.

MAUs are not vanity, its proven to drive profit and sales....the more someone is using your service the more eyes you have for advertising and to sell them something else.

Such small minded thought processes by you here tbh.

 

[TonyK]

My main platform has been PS5 during 2 years. Now is Xbox X thanks to the Quick resume function. In my opinion it's the best new gen feature. I hope the other consoles and PC will implement something similar in the future.

 

[Hobbygaming]

What is a vanity metric? Aren't sales a vanity metric when you don't know what they sold at? People just imagine that when they hear 10 million sales it's 10 mill x 60 dollars but that is not the case. Last of us 2 has been like 5 to 10 pounds a copy brand new for the best part of a year now in the UK.

I'm sure Sony would take rather take 10 pounds a month and keep monthly active users logging in, checking digital sales, being engaged with the platform and buying content for them to make profit on than one 10 pound sales that the console then gets left collecting dust until fifa 23 or cod launches. It's not vanity its just you're not looking at the wider picture at all. Too narrow minded.

A subscription services keeps your customers and fans engaged in the eco system and your console.

Why do you think cinemas are pushing for more monthly subscriptions to see as many films as you want? Because it gets bums on seats, shows interest and some percentages of customers will buy popcorn etc that rakes the money in.

Like digital shite on a consoles store.

MAUs are not vanity, its proven to drive profit and sales....the more someone is using your service the more eyes you have for advertising and to sell them something else.

Such small minded thought processes by you here tbh.

What about the people who subscribe for a month or so just to play the newest game on the service for $2 - $15 then unsubscribe

 

[DarkMage619]

What about the people who subscribe for a month or so just to play the newest game on the service for $2 - $15 then unsubscribe

Do you have any metrics that show the number of people who only sub for a month then drop the service? Netflix has near 200 million subscribers. How many of them do you think sub a month then drop it?

 

[bentanchorbolt]

ITT a bunch of folks try to use math to prove which console is better but despite the outcome their lives are not richer for it.

 

[DEAD ORIGINAL]

Why do people get so upset I have both PS5 is main Xbox is just exclusives waiting for StarField hopefully good. I personally don't think Xbox has been any good since early Xbox 360 before kinect honestly Halo 3 Gears 1 Vs 100 left 4 dead what a time shame it's been pretty wank since hope they get good soon however I will say Forza Horizon is a great series prefer 4 over 5 though Mexico kinda shit location

 

[Hobbygaming]

Do you have any metrics that show the number of people who only sub for a month then drop the service? Netflix has near 200 million subscribers. How many of them do you think sub a month then drop it?

Idk but I dont think we should compare something like Netflix

 

[onnextflix5]

Exclusives matter who would have thought, Jimbo and spencer take note.

 

[DarkMage619]

Idk but I dont think we should compare something like Netflix

So you'd compare it to something like Nintendo Online or PS+ then? How many people sign up to those services month to month?

 

[GHG]

Man, I hope for MS's sake that the PC Bethesda fanbase buys this game on steam. I have no faith in the Xbox userbase to buy this game. I know i wont lmao.

Thankfully bethesda games are huge on PC so it should do 5 million easily.

As long as the windows store and their Xbox app continue to be a dumpster fire then it should actually play in their favour. The vast majority of PC gamers will just opt to buy it on Steam.

 

[Stooky]

So you'd compare it to something like Nintendo Online or PS+ then? How many people sign up to those services month to month?

Sony looked at their numbers and came to the conclusion that having big releases makes them more money. I’m sure that if the numbers looked the other way they would be doing exactly what Microsoft is doing. This can change at some point. Sony with a strong 1st party like Nintendo rely on big releases. Xbox with a weak 1st party lean on subscriptions.

 

[Heisenberg007]

What is a vanity metric? Aren't sales a vanity metric when you don't know what they sold at? People just imagine that when they hear 10 million sales it's 10 mill x 60 dollars but that is not the case. Last of us 2 has been like 5 to 10 pounds a copy brand new for the best part of a year now in the UK.

Nobody multiplies sales x 60 lol.

And sales and sales revenue are two of the only real metrics that matter. You need money in the end to run a business; not how many foxes were pet or how many guns were fired in a game.

I'm sure Sony would take rather take 10 pounds a month and keep monthly active users logging in, checking digital sales, being engaged with the platform and buying content for them to make profit on than one 10 pound sales that the console then gets left collecting dust until fifa 23 or cod launches. It's not vanity its just you're not looking at the wider picture at all. Too narrow minded.

Oh you're sure? lol. So why don't they?

If they wanted to, they'd have to launch their games on PS+ (which is the biggest gaming subscription service right now), but they don't. And guess what, they generate more revenue than any other console platform holder and has a higher MAU and engagement rate.

A subscription services keeps your customers and fans engaged in the eco system and your console.

Vanity metrics.

What a horrible take, man. You usually do better than this.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Microsoft has sacrificed first party revenue/profits for user growth and revenue from other transaction on the store which then makes comparison between the old model and the new one very difficult.

This is going to take some time to play out for a new release.

I agree that this new model is difficult to measure.

But the "user growth and revenue" part is also tricky on the surface because their Gamepass subscription service has hit a saturation point on console (their biggest driver of said subscription service). There is only so much growth that can be possible now.

Considering that, the conversation will eventually turn back to $ made per game and console sales.

 

[reksveks]

I agree that this new model is difficult to measure.

But the "user growth and revenue" part is also tricky on the surface because their Gamepass subscription service has hit a saturation point on console (their biggest driver of said subscription service). There is only so much growth that can be possible now.

Considering that, the conversation will eventually turn back to $ made per game and console sales.

Not necessarily purely $ per game but do agree that MS is expecting an increase of console hw sales which in theory could/would drive additional subscriptions (not in %, but in absolute terms).

The great non-secret that first party games from platform holder have a different set of criteria of success in comparison to third party games so comparison on just sales numbers will not be how MS/Sony/Nintendo looks at it.

 

[Balducci30]

Well my Xbox hasn’t had a game release on it that I’m interested in in over a year so…

 

[Heisenberg007]

Not necessarily purely $ per game but do agree that MS is expecting an increase of console hw sales which in theory could/would drive additional subscriptions (not in %, but in absolute terms).

The great non-secret that first party games from platform holder have a different set of criteria of success in comparison to third party games so comparison on just sales numbers will not be how MS/Sony/Nintendo looks at it.

I agree that the criteria have changed for MS. As a matter of fact, I started this conversation a couple of times here but got shut down every time by fanboys.

I believe it's an important discussion to have at this pivotal point in the industry, i.e., what would be the criterion for measuring the success of single-player non-mtx games launching on subscription services day one?

Will it be console sales, game sales, revenue (attribution will be an issue), subscriber growth (attribution will again be an issue), engagement (that's a vanity metric), total player count (that's also vanity as well as misleading), game completion ratio (again, vanity), etc.

 

[DarkMage619]

Sony looked at their numbers and came to the conclusion that having big releases makes them more money. I’m sure that if the numbers looked the other way they would be doing exactly what Microsoft is doing. This can change at some point. Sony with a strong 1st party like Nintendo rely on big releases. Xbox with a weak 1st party lean on subscriptions.

I don't think I've seen any statistics that show Game pass subscribers only stay a month and drop the service. That's why I asked. Most people tend to just subscribe to services and forget about it. The strength or weakness of Xbox first party is largely subjective and as long as there is a steady stream of content customers will be happy. Most of the games on the service have reviewed well.

 

[Hobbygaming]

I don't think I've seen any statistics that show Game pass subscribers only stay a month and drop the service. That's why I asked. Most people tend to just subscribe to services and forget about it. The strength or weakness of Xbox first party is largely subjective and as long as there is a steady stream of content customers will be happy. Most of the games on the service have reviewed well.

I've seen some people say that they only sign up to play a certain game then cancel, who knows what the number is

And I wonder if this steady stream of content will stifle creativity. Will devs get the time they need or be forced to release their game without that gameplay feature that they need more time on

 

[alphachino]

MS played the perfect game of "How to leave the console industry without saying 'We've left the console industry', while at the same time, appearing as though we continue to compete in the console industry"

 

[reksveks]

And I wonder if this steady stream of content will stifle creativity. Will devs get the time they need or be forced to release their game without that gameplay feature that they need more time on

I was going to be snarky in my tone but honestly devs at publicly traded companies already face issues that force them to release games. GP isn't going to change that massively in comparison to the pressure of earnings calls.

I do also believe that MS is giving Bethesda more time to release their game cause they need it to be a success. Subscription services need 'good' content to growth (there are a shit tonne of other factors) but good is subjective.

 

[reksveks]

I believe it's an important discussion to have at this pivotal point in the industry, i.e., what would be the criterion for measuring the success of single-player non-mtx games launching on subscription services day one?

Will it be console sales, game sales, revenue (attribution will be an issue), subscriber growth (attribution will again be an issue), engagement (that's a vanity metric), total player count (that's also vanity as well as misleading), game completion ratio (again, vanity), etc.

I suspect its going to be a combination of console sales, game sales, total revenue and subscriber growth but the issue is that we won't see it and definitely won't see it in real time.

Microsoft doesn't help that and if MS does complete the ABK, I do want more transparency especially into MAU's.

 

[Heisenberg007]

I suspect its going to be a combination of console sales, game sales, total revenue and subscriber growth but the issue is that we won't see it and definitely won't see it in real time.

Microsoft doesn't help that and if MS does complete the ABK, I do want more transparency especially into MAU's.

I agree with most of this stuff, but the problem is that there will be counterarguments for almost every metric we can think of. For example:

• Console sales -- "but consoles aren't even that important to Microsoft anymore!"
• Game sales -- "but MS doesn't care game sales, that's why they put their games on GP day one."
• Total revenue -- this is a good metric but useless if it's muddied by acquisitions and no information on operating expenditures and profit/loss. We'd not know if an individual game launching on a sub was actually profitable or not and what may happen with that franchise in the future.
• Subscriber growth -- another good metric, but only if it's accompanied by other metrics such as CpS, RpS, etc. For measuring individual game's commercial success, however, it'll still be super tough to use this metric. It'll be difficult to isolate one game's impact.

*using MS and GP only because they represent this example perfectly, being the only console company to launch games day one on a subscription.

 

[Hobbygaming]

I was going to be snarky in my tone but honestly devs at publicly traded companies already face issues that force them to release games. GP isn't going to change that massively in comparison to the pressure of earnings calls.

I do also believe that MS is giving Bethesda more time to release their game cause they need it to be a success. Subscription services need 'good' content to growth (there are a shit tonne of other factors) but good is subjective.

We know devs have milestones/ deadlines but with trying to line games up to have a steady stream of content it sounds like it might affect ideas and concepts even more

It kinda sounds like games on an assembly line lol

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

I mean I own a PS5 Disc Edition, XSX, Switch, and gaming PC and my time is like 90% PS5, 3% XSX/Switch/PC each (remaining 1% retro consoles).

 

[yurinka]

lmao your sources are nothing, why do you think 30m units are still sold if there were supply issues on Sony? their just creating this "chips" shortage to justify their increase while it was all scalpers buying all those consoles.

xbox has already confirmed this games are coming until the end of 2023:

• Age of Empire 4
• Forza Motorsport (8)
• Starfield
• Redfall
• Hellblade 2
• The Last Case of Benedict Fox
• Stalker 2 (time exclusive)
• ARK 2 (time exclusive)
• Warhammer 40K Darktide (Time Exc.)

Do you have any official source to Hellblade 2 being announced for 2023? As I know it never happened and in summer 2021 its director said they still had to make a vertical slice to move into full production.

Which means that pretty likely then entered full production late 2021/(more likely since UE5 was released during 2022) early 2022 and doesn't sound that a 2023 release would be possible, specially when the game is supposed to be bigger than the previous one.

 

[Batiman]

I’ve been like 80% Xbox and 20% PS. I just have too many games to play on Xbox. Sony has the better exclusives this gen no doubt but nothing really to keep me playing more on their console. I beat most of their IPS in a few sittings then switch back to Xbox for most of my time goes.

What are people playing on Ps5 that takes up a lot of game time. There’s no really long games that are time consuming and even though it does have better exclusives they’re mostly one and some type games.

 

[DarkMage619]

I've seen some people say that they only sign up to play a certain game then cancel, who knows what the number is

And I wonder if this steady stream of content will stifle creativity. Will devs get the time they need or be forced to release their game without that gameplay feature that they need more time on

I've seen people sign up for a service and keep it going even when they aren't using it regularly. I don't think either number is representative of most users or statically relevant.

Games like Pentiment and Grounded show there is plenty of space for developers to work on passion projects. Those games likely would not have existed outside of a sub service. Especially with a push from some platform holders to go bigger. The biggest criticism against MS currently is that they are too 'hands off' not that they are forcing their devs to do things against their will.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I’ve been like 80% Xbox and 20% PS.

What are people playing on Ps5 that takes up a lot of game time. There’s no really long games that are time consuming and even though it does have better exclusives they’re mostly one and some type games.

 

[Mr Hyde]

What are people playing on Ps5 that takes up a lot of game time.

What are you playing on Xbox that takes up all of your time?

 

[DenchDeckard]

What about the people who subscribe for a month or so just to play the newest game on the service for $2 - $15 then unsubscribe

Just like the people that borrow the disk from their friend and play it. Or buy it used.

 

[johnjohn]

Series S with Game Pass is the perfect secondary console. It's a big reason why Xbox is gaining market share this gen.

 

[dano1]

where do they put these polls and how do they even say 71% of UK PS5 owners, I wasn't even asked lol

Well what’s your choice? Maybe 72%

 

[Batiman]

What are you playing on Xbox that takes up all of your time?

Gamepass fills my time with tons of games. I played ragnarok last week then I’m back to my gamepass games. Played through Pentiment and High on life this week.

I guess if you’re buying a shitload of games then my opinion is mute though. I’m just wondering what everyone’s playing that’s on ps5 that’s not on xbox?

 

[phil_t98]

Well what’s your choice? Maybe 72%

the point is it says the poll says 71% of PS5 users which states it as a fact. if it says 71%. of all polled users then fair enough

 

[Mr Hyde]

Gamepass fills my time with tons of games. I played ragnarok last week then I’m back to my gamepass games. Played through Pentiment and High on life this week.

I guess if you’re buying a shitload of games then my opinion is mute though. I’m just wondering what everyone’s playing that’s on ps5 that’s not on xbox?

I guess they are doing the same as you. They play games. On their preferred console. First party and third party. And if they're subscribed to PS Plus extra they don't need to buy a shitload of games. It's not rocket science.

 

[dano1]

the point is it says the poll says 71% of PS5 users which states it as a fact. if it says 71%. of all polled users then fair enough

Welcome to the way news is done now a days

 

[Batiman]

I guess they are doing the same as you. They play games. On their preferred console. First party and third party. And if they're subscribed to PS Plus extra they don't need to buy a shitload of games. It's not rocket science.

It’s not rocket science to see that GP has a lot more subscribers than ultimate either.