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Can Final Fantasy / JRPGs ever reach the sales of the old days again? - A Discussion

M

Manmademan

Member
Meccanical said:
That's the main reason I bought it, I saw the potential and I had to nurture it.
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It does have a ton of potential- but also a lot of flaws. Fortunately they're easily correctable.

The world is simply too big to not have any kind of fast travel. there are legitimate reasons for limiting it, given the day/night cycle- but having to do the same run between the same towns for every sidequest gets REALLY old.

The enemy diversity and challenge level is seriously lacking- you'll be fighting the same wolves, harpies, goblins and bandits a thousand times over. LITERALLY the same ones. I don't know how many times I wiped out the same damn bandit pack while heading north of the city. It doesn't really improve until the postgame- again, the game really needs some balance here and additional enemy types.

The relationship system is hilariously broken, and makes the climax of the game extremely confusing. Half the time the dragon will "kidnap" someone you barely interacted with, and "force" you to make a "heart wrenching" decision. Other gamers have run into 8 year olds as their love interest, complete with extremely uncomfortable fireside embrace. Fix this shit capcom, that's inexcusable.

for a high profile title like that, it's certainly a bit of an eyesore. Not "nier" bad- but nothing that's going to turn heads. Again, there are legitimate reasons for this (DD can have a TON of NPCs in combat at once compared to the souls games) but visually it could use some polish.

but under all that, it was a solid game and probably my surprise of the year. I'll be looking forward to the expansion.
 
M

Meccanical

Member
I agree with all of that, and as you say, they are easily fixed.

DD2 should be quite spectacular if they improve on its strengths and mend its weaknesses.
 
S

Snakeyes

Member
demidar said:
I think the problem is the young blood isn't getting a shot on their own projects because the seniors (don't conflate that with skilled) are cockblocking them with their elevated position in order to stroke their own ego. There's also the fact that these games tend to be so tropey in a bad way. Look at Alyssa Zaidelle from XIII-2, urgh how despicable with her airheadedness. It's fine to add in some tropes, but don't go overboard since graphical fidelity makes cultural differences stand out.
Click to expand...

Oh right. Forgot all about the Japanese corporate culture.
 
M

Manmademan

Member
Meccanical said:
I agree with all of that, and as you say, they are easily fixed.

DD2 should be quite spectacular if they improve on its strengths and mend its weaknesses.
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True. i think it MIGHT be pushing the PS3 and 360 about as far as they can go, though. I'd like to see DD2 for next gen systems.
 
M

Meccanical

Member
MagiusNecros said:
Dragon's Dogma made it over a million cuz BERSERK weapons and armor. *is bias*
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I bet that did help push some digits honestly.

Main thing I want for the sequel...more weapons.

And by more weapons, I mean more weapon types.

I want to see them get creative, these guys made DMC4 after all.
 
R

RedSwirl

Junior Member
crazyjah2003 said:
I was underwhelmed by how it looked compared to even some of the Launch 360 games; not to count the likes of Lost Odyssey... I think Dark Souls could have easily been ported and handled by the PS2, Especially if you consider how FFXII looks and runs.

I don't really think it is PS2-WII era graphics as it stands, but could have been ported down with minimal loss.
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With hugely downgraded graphics MAYBE a version of something that resembles Demon's Souls. Dark Souls however would at least have to have a ton of loading screens added.
 
MagiusNecros

MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Meccanical said:
I bet that did helped push some digits honestly.

Main thing I want for the sequel...more weapons.

And by more weapons, I mean more weapon types.

I want to see them get creative, these guys made DMC4 after all.
Click to expand...

I've always been a huge battleaxe or scythe guy.
 
M

Manmademan

Member
RedSwirl said:
With hugely downgraded graphics MAYBE a version of something that resembles Demon's Souls. Dark Souls however would at least have to have a ton of loading screens added.
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impossible. the IQ of demon's souls is far beyond what the ps2 was capable of (those worlds were HUGE), and we're not even getting into physics. Half the fun of the souls games is that attacks have weight behind them, and enemies react realistically while in combat.

FFXII, good looking as it is really didn't get this at all.
 
T

Toth

Member
I agree on the points and love of DD but is it really fair to classify it as a JRPG? When I think of a JRPG, I think turn based battles, melodrama, and time honored archetypes. DD feels more like a Japanese take on Skyrim ala a WRPG.
 
O

Orayn

Member
Toth said:
I agree on the points and love of DD but is it really fair to classify it as a JRPG? When I think of a JRPG, I think turn based battles, melodrama, and time honored archetypes. DD feels more like a Japanese take on Skyrim ala a WRPG.
Click to expand...

The combat drawing heavy influence from both Devil May Cry and Shadow of the Colossus further muddles the mixture. I'd still be comfortable in saying that it's an (action) RPG from Japan, but it definitely doesn't fit the specific "JRPG" tradition exemplified by Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy.
 
M

Meccanical

Member
Toth said:
I agree on the points and love of DD but is it really fair to classify it as a JRPG? When I think of a JRPG, I think turn based battles, melodrama, and time honored archetypes. DD feels more like a Japanese take on Skyrim ala a WRPG.
Click to expand...

I see people sometimes classify Action RPGs and JRPGs separately...so I guess it's just an action RPG.
 
M

Manmademan

Member
Toth said:
I agree on the points and love of DD but is it really fair to classify it as a JRPG? When I think of a JRPG, I think turn based battles, melodrama, and time honored archetypes. DD feels more like a Japanese take on Skyrim ala a WRPG.
Click to expand...

It's not what one would think of as a JRPG and that's the point. The genre is stagnant and needs to evolve. DD is not a JRPG, but what it is, is a japanese developer (capcom) taking the time to figure out how to make a unique RPG that will actually sell to an international audience.

Turn based battles and random encounters are a relic at this point. There are many examples of games that can handle a full party in real time via advanced AI, and this is one of the things that capcom experimented with. It's not as refined as FFXII's approach, but it was a good shot at it.

Melodrama and teen angst can die in a fire. DD's plot was solid and original. no complaints here, outside of the rather bizarre relationship system.

"time honored archetypes" of JRPGs go back to 80s and 90s anime and not much farther. There is a WEALTH of other source material that can be and should be mined to make more compelling games. Even the bottom of the barrel of modern fantasy fiction embarasses even the best JRPGs in their heyday. The only ones that are the exception seem to be matsuno's efforts- Vagrant Story, Tactics Ogre, FFT, and FFXII.

All that being said, Dragon's Dogma is not skyrim, and it's not demon's souls. It's completely different. The focus is on the action, but it IS a party based game (those two are not) full of sidequests that flesh out the world and mythology. It's not an open world RPG, and it's not Dragon Age- it's its own thing and capcom did a good job.

double edit: and even considering this, that's a very limited definition of JRPG- both Secret of Mana and seiken densetsu III had (semi) real time combat with AI controlled party members back on the SNES. no one would argue that those weren't JRPGs.
 
R

RaijinFY

Member
Necron said:
It got me thinking - what about not having expensive 3D environments? Not having to control the camera all the time or having it behind the characters?

Or in short: whatever happened to 2D environments?

smelloffire.jpg


BalambGarden_Eingangshalle.jpg


Going back to them but in HD could increase Square's output dramatically and it gets the job done. Perhaps nobody wants them anymore... and I can understand that.

It won't solve the multiple other problems but it's a first step in reducing costs and higher output. I don't want to experience "the tunnel" that was FF XIII ever again.

It's just a thought...
Click to expand...

That would be the only way to have a truthful FFVII remake, at least to me.
 
C

crazyjah2003

Member
PS2's strength might fall just a bit short to be honest; but other systems from the generation would have ran an experience close to Dark Soul's VISUALS.

My only point is that we are never getting anything close to Xenoblade HD or FFXII HD with the amount of polish old square would have put into such a thing. I believe Lost Odyssey was the last one.
 
O

Orayn

Member
demidar said:
I would classify DD as a WRPG.
Click to expand...

That means going into goofy semantics territory. It's sorta stylish action game combat, poured into a sandbox game shaped mold. It has a lot in common with open world games like Skyrim, sure, but defining "W" and "J" with gameplay features gets incredibly silly and arbitrary.

For the sake of clarity and stopping arguments before they start, comparisons to existing games and series are probably the best way to go. The OP is clearly talking about games in the tradition of most of the DQ and FF series. Two clear modern examples of that lineage would be Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon.
 
T

Toth

Member
Manmademan said:
It's not what one would think of as a JRPG and that's the point. The genre is stagnant and needs to evolve. DD is not a JRPG, but what it is, is a japanese developer (capcom) taking the time to figure out how to make a unique RPG that will actually sell to an international audience.

Turn based battles and random encounters are a relic at this point. There are many examples of games that can handle a full party in real time via advanced AI, and this is one of the things that capcom experimented with. It's not as refined as FFXII's approach, but it was a good shot at it.

Melodrama and teen angst can die in a fire. DD's plot was solid and original. no complaints here, outside of the rather bizarre relationship system.

"time honored archetypes" of JRPGs go back to 80s and 90s anime and not much farther. There is a WEALTH of other source material that can be and should be mined to make more compelling games. Even the bottom of the barrel of modern fantasy fiction embarasses even the best JRPGs in their heyday. The only ones that are the exception seem to be matsuno's efforts- Vagrant Story, Tactics Ogre, FFT, and FFXII.

All that being said, Dragon's Dogma is not skyrim, and it's not demon's souls. It's completely different. The focus is on the action, but it IS a party based game (those two are not) full of sidequests that flesh out the world and mythology. It's not an open world RPG, and it's not Dragon Age- it's its own thing and capcom did a good job.

double edit: and even considering this, that's a very limited definition of JRPG- both Secret of Mana and seiken densetsu III had (semi) real time combat with AI controlled party members back on the SNES. no one would argue that those weren't JRPGs.
Click to expand...

I would classify SoM and its sequel as RPGs with a action-style battle system.

For the sake of clarity and stopping arguments before they start, comparisons to existing games and series are probably the best way to go. The OP is clearly talking about games in the tradition of most of the DQ and FF series. Two clear modern examples of that lineage would be Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon
Click to expand...

You got it, Orayn.
 
M

Mooreberg

is sharpening a shovel and digging a ditch
FF has seen a stunning decline in quality, but that is one franchise. What are the rest of them doing in comparison to previous eras?
 
T

thefro

Member
Unless there's some sort of Skylanders/Pokemon-level gimmick that leads to a fad or the graphics & story blow away everything else on the console market, you're not going to see a traditional turn-based JRPG sell ten+ million copies in North America/Europe/Australia/Japan. Now down the road if/when China & India have strong console markets all bets are off.

An action JRPG is a different story.
 
D

demidar

Member
Orayn said:
That means going into goofy semantics territory. It's sorta stylish action game combat, poured into a sandbox game shaped mold. It has a lot in common with open world games like Skyrim, sure, but defining "W" and "J" with gameplay features gets incredibly silly and arbitrary.

For the sake of clarity and stopping arguments before they start, comparisons to existing games and series are probably the best way to go. The OP is clearly talking about games in the tradition of most of the DQ and FF series. Two clear modern examples of that lineage would be Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon.
Click to expand...

Okay fine, we'll not get into this.
 
O

Orayn

Member
demidar said:
Okay fine, we'll not get into this.
Click to expand...

I mean, it's an interesting discussion to have, I just think that this thread probably isn't the place to have it since the premise is defined clearly. New thread to discuss that, maybe? Could be fun as long as people behave themselves.
 
M

Manmademan

Member
Orayn said:
That means going into goofy semantics territory. It's sorta stylish action game combat, poured into a sandbox game shaped mold. It has a lot in common with open world games like Skyrim, sure, but defining "W" and "J" with gameplay features gets incredibly silly and arbitrary.
Click to expand...

Exactly. There are many games we classify as "JRPG" and "WRPG" but the lines that define this aren't exactly clear. Not all JRPGs have turn based battles. not all of them have a full party. Not all of them feature plucky "time honored archetypes" with spiky hair and big swords saving the world. When you start picking apart these definitions and trying to define it, you find a lot of it's totally arbitrary- sort of like pornography in that you "know it when you see it" but there's no definition.

For the sake of clarity and stopping arguments before they start, comparisons to existing games and series are probably the best way to go. The OP is clearly talking about games in the tradition of most of the DQ and FF series. Two clear modern examples of that lineage would be Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon.
Click to expand...

Yes, but Dragon Quest is sort of the exception- going out of it's way to NOT evolve it's gameplay. (disclaimer- i did not play IX, VIII was my last one.) Aside from the voice acting and visual polish, there's not a lot to separate dragon quest VIII from Dragon Quest III. The game is extremely dated and/or retro, but it's intentional and that's part of the charm, I suppose.

Final fantasy went in a totally different direction. Compare Final Fantasy (NES) with Final Fantasy XII and there's not a lot in common- you'd be hard pressed to justify why they're even considered in the same genre. So what's the "tradition" there that we're looking to preserve, besides a few fan servicey references like moogles and chocobos?
 
S

Shinta

Banned
Manmademan said:
Exodus beat me to it, But I've yet to see a JRPG even make the attempt at more mature content. They've been making the equivalent of terrible anime in game form for years, and are wondering why the west is losing interest.
Click to expand...

tumblr_m26tsm6yo81qfy7zpo2_250.gif


Dragon's Dogma shit all over Skyrim, and apparently no one even noticed.

You may have also heard of Demon's Souls and Dark Souls.

There's also NieR.
 
M

Manmademan

Member
demidar said:
More like spreading it to 100000000000 different platforms.
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This also. leaping between competing platforms is a really, really strange way to handle a game series with an interconnected storyline. I can think of maybe one game that did this (crimson sea 2) and that wasn't even an RPG.

Top that off with the fact that fans have been waiting for kingdom hearts III for 6 years, and have gotten nothing but half baked spinoffs, prequels, and remakes and it's no wonder the fanbase is burned out on it.
 
O

Orayn

Member
Manmademan said:
Final fantasy went in a totally different direction. Compare Final Fantasy (NES) with Final Fantasy XII and there's not a lot in common- you'd be hard pressed to justify why they're even considered in the same genre. So what's the "tradition" there that we're looking to preserve, besides a few fan servicey references like moogles and chocobos?
Click to expand...

You're right. FF is weird in that it still keeps the story elements you mentioned, the general "feel" of what many people recognize as a JRPG, along with the core ideas of (partially) turn based battles and melodrama, but they're kind of a Ship of Theseus in terms of mechanics. I'd argue that you still have pretty strong gameplay resemblance from the original through IX, while still being able to break them up by common features of the NES, SNES, and PSX eras.

FFX having a throwback battle system with dramatically different level/class system and world structure is where the discussion gets gnarly and/or truly interesting. Subsequent games only depart more, so I'd mark FFX as the point where the series went off the rails in a certain sense.
 
M

Manmademan

Member
Shinta said:
Yay :)
Click to expand...

I wasn't disagreeing with you either- Dragon's Dogma and the Souls games were brought up- unfortunately no one seems to think these are JRPGs, but instead WRPGs made by Japanese devs.

DD is a solid game, and a successful effort for an original IP, which is very rare.

NIER though is very much a stretch to call an RPG, "J" or otherwise- at least via the parameters established by this thread. It's really sort of it's own thing- the gameplay at times is just as much top down shooter or sidescrolling platformer as it is "rpg".

You're right. FF is weird in that it still keeps the story elements you mentioned, the general "feel" of what many people recognize as a JRPG, along with the core ideas of (partially) turn based battles and melodrama, but they're kind of a Ship of Theseus in terms of mechanics. I'd argue that you still have pretty strong gameplay resemblance from the original through IX, while still being able to break them up by common features of the NES, SNES, and PSX eras.

FFX having a throwback battle system with dramatically different level/class system and world structure is where the discussion gets gnarly and/or truly interesting. Subsequent games only depart more, so I'd mark FFX as the point where the series went off the rails in a certain sense.
Click to expand...

I'd go earlier and say it was VIII. Levels are now meaningless, and only serve to make the game harder! stats are now gained by draining spells or refining items and "junctioning" them to you: and using them will weaken you! Money is now gained at pre-determined points by your salary! Party members have no distinction outside of limit breaks! Weapons can no longer be bought or found! It really flipped the FF paradigm on it's head, i think.
 
C

Claymores

Banned
Manmademan said:
Turn based battles and random encounters are a relic at this point. There are many examples of games that can handle a full party in real time via advanced AI, and this is one of the things that capcom experimented with. It's not as refined as FFXII's approach, but it was a good shot at it.
Click to expand...

I hate when people post this turn based combat isn't a relic thats your option nothing more, and personally just like other games like RE I really can't stand AI controlled parties.
 
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