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[MagiusNecros]

I'm all for a creator following his heart and staying true to his vision.

But Toriyama's vision is all fucked up and I don't want that shit anymore.

Matsuno is to Toriyama like a Coherent Vision is to a Incoherent one.

Toriyama himself admitted they lost focus of what he wanted XIII to be. That should imply a problem to begin with.

And Matsuno has made it clear he is done with Ivalice and possibly Square. He's said if Square wants to remake Ivalice games then that's up to them.

 

[Manmademan]

I rarely like japanese games that try to cater to western audiences (probably because my interests are not in line with most western gamers). Even if it isn't cost effective for them, games that don't try to cater to international audiences are a huge boon for me.

After all, I play Japanese games because they're nothing like western games. If I wanted games with western sensibilities, I'd play more western games.

There's something to be said for retaining a cultural identity even when the game heads overseas. I can't stand the idea that everything needs to be bent and contorted to fit the western image. It creates homogeny, of which the gaming industry already has too much.

Let's be clear- when i say catering to western sensibilities, I don't mean having the next FF be skyrim.

There are things you can do with your games to NOT turn off international audiences en masse, while still maintaning the uniqueness that makes it distinctively a japanese game.

Like I said previously, there are plenty of japanese games outside of the JRPG genre that manage this just fine. I can play all the way through Vanquish or Resident Evil 4 and not have say...Chocolina dancing across my screen making me embarrassed to play it.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I think some RPG's need to drop the indecisive teenager motif in some instances and give us an older protagonist who has to make very strict decisions that not only affect his little group but an entire group of people amounting to several thousands, not the whole world is in danger because when you really think about it, the world is never truly in danger, unless something is directly draining it or some otherworldly object decides to have a collision course with the planet being it's destination. It's more your little subgroup is in danger most of the time.

 

[Glass Rebel]

I rarely like japanese games that try to cater to western audiences (probably because my interests are not in line with most western gamers). Even if it isn't cost effective for them, games that don't try to cater to international audiences are a huge boon for me.

After all, I play Japanese games because they're nothing like western games. If I wanted games with western sensibilities, I'd play more western games.

There's something to be said for retaining a cultural identity even when the game heads overseas. I can't stand the idea that everything needs to be bent and contorted to fit the western image. It creates homogeny, of which the gaming industry already has too much. The Japanese have already been brainwashed into thinking their cultural identity is worthless, and they need to be more like us to succeed in the industry. What an awful message we send to the rest of the world.

I hate bringing up Demon's/Dark Souls because it's always brought up as the game that does everything the best but I really think they managed to make a game that appealed to international audiences while still keeping it very Japanese in design and aesthetics.

 

[encephalon]

You know, given that Versus is mentioned in almost every single thread to do with Final Fantasy or Square Enix in some form, not just on NeoGAF but on other boards as well, I have to wonder if their horrible mismanagement of their game production has turned into an advertising campaign. If they could actually get the game out.

 

[ReyBrujo]

It's the same as with the music industry in Japan, nowadays the best-selling singles and albums (by AKB48, Arashi and Mr. Children, mainly) would barely or not rank at all in the top 10 back in the late 90's and early 2000. People change their preferences, and the industry doesn't react on time.

 

[Riposte]

Hmm...can we consider Dragon Dogma to be a JRPG though? It's more of an open world WRPG by a Japanese developer.

It is a 3D action game from a lead developer previously most famous for making Devil May Cry 3 and 4.

There was a Final Fantasy inspired by Berserk: FF7.

 

[Dresden]

I think when people say things like "while still maintaning the uniqueness that makes it distinctively a japanese game," they underestimate the barrier of entry for some consumers that being 'distinctively a japanese game' entails.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

No. The fanbase is too splintered and JRPGs are dying in the West. I'd really like them to make a new FF that builds upon the FF XII formula, but I'm sure they'd just muck it up anyway.

 

[Mandoric]

I think when people say things like "while still maintaning the uniqueness that makes it distinctively a japanese game," they underestimate the barrier of entry for some consumers that being 'distinctively a japanese game' entails.

I think "some consumers" is the key word there. It's difficult-to-impossible for people heavily invested in the particular design language we call "hardcore" now, and honestly no amount of brown paint or gruff middle-aged men will bridge that gap because there are just as many mechanical as aesthetic miscommunications.

The question is where this leaves the average buyer. There's no longer a conveyor belt dropping every nerdy kid on S-E's front door, but "hardcore" gamers are their own little world too, and there's room for a disruptive title or a steady flow of slow-burners to gradually trim the feeders away from that.

 

[Riposte]

I think when people say things like "while still maintaning the uniqueness that makes it distinctively a japanese game," they underestimate the barrier of entry for some consumers that being 'distinctively a japanese game' entails.

With the right marketing you can overcome most difficulties.

The pretty boys of Final Fantasy are not too far off from the vampires of Twilight. Let's do it Square, make that money.

 

[The Awesomest]

Ok, I get where you're going. this is a common complaint of mine as well- JRPGs are typically like playing through bad anime. Given the amount of GOOD source material one can use as inspiration, that's inexcusable. Fantasy and Science fiction are going through a goddamned renaissance in the west and it's a missed opportunity. But at this point I'll happily settle for something that isn't "plucky teens hop on their airship and save the world."

I don't play most big-name JRPGs, so I'm not really familiar with this trope. However, one of the few big-name JRPGs I played and loved was Skies of Arcadia, where that pretty much is the entire plot, and it was done very well, in my opinion. Some plucky teenage pirates got on a boat and fucked shit up. There was no romantic melodrama, no overly complicated backstory, no teenage protagonist angst, just some kids getting on an airship and being awesome. It's really refreshing, now that I've played other games and they all have the same stupid romantic melodrama and orphaned protagonists dealing with issues from their childhood.

 

[Meccanical]

I don't play most big-name JRPGs, so I'm not really familiar with this trope. However, one of the few big-name JRPGs I played and loved was Skies of Arcadia, where that pretty much is the entire plot, and it was done very well, in my opinion. Some plucky teenage pirates got on a boat and fucked shit up. There was no romantic melodrama, no overly complicated backstory, no teenage protagonist angst, just some kids getting on an airship and being awesome to the end. It's really refreshing, now that I've played other games and they all have the same stupid romantic melodrama and protagonists dealing with issues from their childhood.

Yes, thank you.

The complaint should be about "angsty teens".

Plucky teens are fine and we need more.

 

[Cheddahz]

No, but the Final Fantasy games of this gen don't deserve to make money anyways

 

[MagiusNecros]

No, but the Final Fantasy games of this gen don't deserve to make money anyways

Except Type 0. Hailing from the end of 2011. May the Crystal bless Class Zero for their deeds.

 

[SolidSnakex]

hey, I agree with you completely. Final fantasy (and to a larger extent JRPGs as a whole) simply can't keep going on as they have been and expect to thrive. Anime is dead in the west. deal with it. Japanese gamers are no longer a driving force in the console space. deal with it. or you can pretend that it's still 1997 and none of this is happening to you, and go out of business.

Anime isn't as popular as it once was in the US, but it's definitely still popular in Europe. That's why One Piece Musou 2 has been confirmed for Europe but not the US. It's also why Europe will be receiving a limited edition for Naruto UNS2. The US doesn't determine the tastes of the entire western world.

But considering that doing that makes your games unsellable overseas (the market which is expanding), and the japanese console market is shrinking by the minute- why do you continue to tool your expensive multimillion dollar flagship games to a shrinking segment of the market?

It doesn't make your game unsellable overseas. The biggest issue with selling JRPG's in the in the western market is a complete lack of marketing. People keep remembering when JRPG's really blew up in the west, but they also completely forget about which JRPG's actually did sell well during that period. They were games that were actually marketed. Like Chrono Cross and Legend of Dragoon. They also piggybacked off the success of Final Fantasy with huge budgets, nice pre-rendered backgrounds and fancy CG. Those really don't exist anymore outside of FF.

So, not a whole lot has changed if you look at it from that perspective. FF is still really the only JRPG that sells in the west. And not surprisingly, it's also the only one that actually receives a decent marketing campaign.

 

[Hours Left]

Can JRPGs reach the level of success they had before? Of course they can.

Nothing is ever finite.

 

[Cheddahz]

Except Type 0. Hailing from the end of 2011. May the Crystal bless Class Zero for their deeds.

I was talking about the American releases, but yeah, I would still love to play Type-0

 

[MagiusNecros]

Can JRPGs reach the level of success they had before? Of course they can.

Nothing is ever finite.

Neither is consistent success. As time has clearly shown us.

 

[Kagari]

The lack of JRPG marketing is definitely a problem. Even Square Enix is at fault here with either mismarketing or undermarketing a lot of their products over the past few years. Namco too with absolutely zero marketing for their Tales games.

 

[kayos90]

The lack of JRPG marketing is definitely a problem. Even Square Enix is at fault here with either mismarketing or undermarketing a lot of their products over the past few years.

Wasn't Dissidia marketed very well? Then again... I guess that doesn't count as a JRPG.

 

[Hours Left]

Neither is consistent success. As time has clearly shown us.

But that can be said of any genre.

 

[Kagari]

Wasn't Dissidia marketed very well? Then again... I guess that doesn't count as a JRPG.

I don't remember, but Crisis Core at least was.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I don't remember, but Crisis Core at least was.

Dissidia was. Duodecim was not.

But that can be said of any genre.

This is true.

 

[kayos90]

I don't remember, but Crisis Core at least was.

Well, this was also back when Sony was still pushing for the PSP I believe.

 

[Teletraan1]

I want them to go way back to actually having a party of more than 3 characters. While I appreciate what FF12 did I would prefer to go back to FF6 battle system with updated graphics.

I would like to see FF6 battle system married with HD FF9 style pre-rendered backgrounds. With how linear and "cinematic" most 3D games are they might as well be pre-rendered backgrounds with no camera control.

 

[MagiusNecros]

FFV Job System is what I liked the most in all of FF. I like customization. Part of why BDFF is appealing to me.

I always looked at FFVI as really easy IMO.

 

[Kagari]

Well, this was also back when Sony was still pushing for the PSP I believe.

Square released all of their 2011 PSP titles with next to no marketing.

 

[kayos90]

Square released all of their 2011 PSP titles with next to no marketing.

Well... at this point wasn't the PSP pretty much abandoned by Sony in the US? I'm not discounting that SE is doing a shitty job with marketing. They definitely have been for the past few years. I'm just saying that Sony pushing for the PSP may have had a part in it.

 

[MechaX]

There was a Final Fantasy inspired by Berserk: FF7.

Outside of the Buster Sword's likeness to the Dragonslayer, I'm honestly not seeing (or remembering) the comparison here.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Outside of the Buster Sword's likeness to the Dragonslayer, I'm honestly not seeing (or remembering) the comparison here.

Type 0 is closer to BERSERK IMO in the war atmosphere.

But no FF comes close to BERSERK.

If anything GILGAMESH'S portrayal in Type 0 seemed more like a homage to GUTS of BERSERK fame in a way. Large sword and plot stuff and all.

 

[Kagari]

Well... at this point wasn't the PSP pretty much abandoned by Sony in the US? I'm not discounting that SE is doing a shitty job with marketing. They definitely have been for the past few years. I'm just saying that Sony pushing for the PSP may have had a part in it.

Sony pushing their platform or no, it's not really up to them to cover SE in this case really. SE should have invested more promotion into these games so they could have potentially sold better. As a result, SE has really shunned handheld game localization, especially after their continued failures on the Vita and 3DS. But again, they barely put out any marketing for their games on those platforms as well.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Sony pushing their platform or no, it's not really up to them to cover SE in this case really. SE should have invested more promotion into these games so they could have potentially sold better. As a result, SE has really shunned handheld game localization, especially after their continued failures on the Vita and 3DS. But again, they barely put out any marketing for their games on those platforms as well.

Especially evident when BDFF devs encouraging facebook support as a way of free marketing. Core audience seems to be japanese.

 

[kayos90]

Sony pushing their platform or no, it's not really up to them to cover SE in this case really. SE should have invested more promotion into these games so they could have potentially sold better. As a result, SE has really shunned handheld game localization, especially after their continued failures on the Vita and 3DS. But again, they barely put out any marketing for their games on those platforms as well.

I agree. Once again, I'm not saying you're wrong. I do think that Sony and SE has close ties with each other and it might have affected the marketing in some way shape or form. It's definitely possible. I think that if the console maker isn't really showing support for the consoles, it's hard for devs to get behind it whether it be making games or marketing them - see the Vita in this case for the closest and relevant example.

Is it SE's job to market regardless of any situation? Of course.

In the end, yes, SE did a shit job. Period.

 

[Juken]

Square has made plenty of mistakes this gen and really damaged the FF brand.

But soon the XIII games will be over, ARR will be out, and next gen will begin. Square still has plenty of resources/talent - they have a huge opportunity to hit the reset button and try to create something amazing with XV. If it comes out and is truly fantastic, I think the fans will come back and it'll do great commercially (although it'll have to be truly revolutionary to come close to the likes of VII).

 

[Plywood]

It got me thinking - what about not having expensive 3D environments? Not having to control the camera all the time or having it behind the characters?

Or in short: whatever happened to 2D environments?

Going back to them but in HD could increase Square's output dramatically and it gets the job done. Perhaps nobody wants them anymore... and I can understand that.

It won't solve the multiple other problems but it's a first step in reducing costs and higher output. I don't want to experience "the tunnel" that was FF XIII ever again.

It's just a thought...

This is actually a really good idea.

 

[Celine]

Yes.

It's just going to take ONE breakthrough game, and the rest of the pubs will fall over themselves to get one out. Everything old becomes new again, eventually.

Nope.
Jrpgs got a boost by the new possibilities (in term of presentation) offered by the cdrom medium whereas at the same time being little bothered by the new 3d gameplay growpain since gameplaywise they were still 2d games.
I don't think Japan or western markets will greatly support a jrpg unless it is a very peculiar one.

Last brandnew jrpg to achieve the million sales WW was Inazuma 11.

 

[RedSwirl]

If you're talking about western sales, a big part of the problem is the difference between demographics. I think Toriyama admitted that FF games (and probably JRPGs in general) are still geared towards teenagers. Far fewer adults play video games in Japan compared to the rest of the world.

In my opinion that doesn't excuse crap writing. Just look at Persona 4 -- a cast full of teenage characters who still manage to be very likable, in a story that's still very well-handled. The translation didn't hurt either. But that game is still little more than a niche success. How are you gonna get general western audiences to respond to it? The closest western equivalent I can think of that got anywhere near mainstream success was Buffy the Vampire Slayer (the TV series not the game).

FF BERSERK story would be even better. Not just a visual feel.

Or just have Kentaro Miura do the characters and art design for an FF game.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

so, you have nothing then. good to know.

I see you may be just trolling with the pedantry, double standards, and the spewing of solutions long-since discredited by sales as only occasionally correct and simplistically broad.

If you're not trolling an excitable fanbase with these shallow confrontational stereotypings, it would do you well to read this forum and other informed sources from people far more learned than me for the real reasons behind these problems and then, maybe, just maybe you can understand those first two posts. Or you can go back to pontificating from a position of willful ignorance that has grown wearily annoying over the years.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Or just have Kentaro Miura do the characters and art design for an FF game.

While that would be awesome I wouldn't want to stall the manga for any period of time.

 

[RPGCrazied]

I'd eat my socks for more jRPGs like Xenogears, Shadow Hearts, Wild Arms, Suikoden.... list goes on and on. :/

 

[Mandoric]

Or just have Kentaro Miura do the characters and art design for an FF game.

What Kentaro Miura's inspiration for mass-market, fashionable female characters in the FF heroine mold might look like:
http://livedoor.4.blogimg.jp/hatima/imgs/f/f/ffd0dcb0.jpg

 

[ohlawd]

idolmaster pic

Hmm would that work?

A Final Fantasy with the plot written by Miura and idolmaster character designs.

shit I'd buy two copies. One for the PS3 and the other for my 2nd bed.

 

[outunderthestars]

JRPG's have become so obtuse and complicated that they alienated too much of the market to have a resurgence, Square being the worst offender.

 

[P90]

FF12 was exactly what the JRPG needed to start the transition to the new generation. And yet it inexplicably became one of the most divisive FF games. This in spite of a gorgeous, well-conceived world and a less childish story.

I could not stand FF XII. The FF brand took a major downgrade in my book with that game. FF XIII was even worse.

 

[May16]

I'll just leave this here....

Has this sold a lot?

 

[kayos90]

Has this sold a lot?

A believable amount.

 

[MagiusNecros]

A believable amount.

Ouch.

 

[kayos90]

Ouch.

I could've written "An unbelievable amount" and it still would've been alright. rofl.

 

[Toth]

The whole marketing angle is an interesting development. I remember 13 had some marketing behind it and it sold very well. Leona Lewis playing the game!!!!. 13-2 had a fraction of that marketing and sold much lower. Coincidence? I think SE needs to reconsider their marketing department.