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Demon's Souls Remake is an artistic disaster

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CliffyB's Cock Holster
Oh well, since people brought up the topic again, here's an old video I watched some time ago:



Agree or not, I think he argues the point pretty well.


I disagree, its just fan-fiction. Not everything has "meaning" in Souls' Games, that's just projection. FROM are very good at creating the illusion of meaning, which is why we give their massive nonsensical structures a pass!

I've spent literally thousands of hours in their "worlds" and the truth is that the core philosophy is about crafting a compelling gameplay experience, not a consistent story. And certainly not a spatially consistent lore and worldview! I mean, how many times do we run across monsters that are way to big to get in or out of the rooms we find them in? How did they get in there in the first place? Let alone WHY are they just hanging out there ?

Yet we're supposed to think that the level of ornamentation on a castle or fortress wall has to be treated as sacrosanct for lore reasons ?!?
Fuck. Off.

Its a formula. End of.
 

Nickolaidas

Member
Some of you are acting as if the ps3 was the mega drive or something. It was a plenty powerful enough console.
Yeah, but back then FROM's games looked like they were a gen ago. I mean, look at Demon's Souls (PS3) next to Last of Us (PS3). FROM sucked donkey dick in terms of visuals back then, and it's only due to Miyazaki's incredible artistic direction that the game still has some breathtaking shots, even back then.

First time I saw the dragon circle the castle from afar as I was shuffling through the undercorridors of Boletaria had my heart pumping. Miyazaki was and is a true master in making castles out of cards.
 

Nickolaidas

Member
I disagree, its just fan-fiction. Not everything has "meaning" in Souls' Games, that's just projection. FROM are very good at creating the illusion of meaning, which is why we give their massive nonsensical structures a pass!

I've spent literally thousands of hours in their "worlds" and the truth is that the core philosophy is about crafting a compelling gameplay experience, not a consistent story. And certainly not a spatially consistent lore and worldview! I mean, how many times do we run across monsters that are way to big to get in or out of the rooms we find them in? How did they get in there in the first place? Let alone WHY are they just hanging out there ?

Yet we're supposed to think that the level of ornamentation on a castle or fortress wall has to be treated as sacrosanct for lore reasons ?!?
Fuck. Off.

Its a formula. End of.
Or how about the merchants who sell their wares to basically just a couple of people? And make shop literally inside a dungeon death trap or a den of monsters?
 
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Nickolaidas

Member
Love how you speak for most Souls fans, describe them as 9 to 5 low IQ crowd that's looking for instant gratification and pew pew pew, yet most people here liked the OP.
There's nothing 'low IQ' in loving a game for the way it's played.

"Oh, I love chess, mainly because of how the pawns look." That's some high IQ right there.
 

Sentenza

Member
I disagree, its just fan-fiction. Not everything has "meaning" in Souls' Games
That's completely irrelevant.
Not everything needs to have a specific meaning or to pass a specific threshold of intentionality to be considered added value.

Back to the previous example of Planescape Torment, I recently watched a very long post-mortem about the game that (among other things) suggested that a lot of very impactful details about the game were more the byproduct of random decisions or collective arguing in the dev team than part of any deliberate design document.
This is not going to change the fact these details are NOW part of the full thing and left their mark on the audience, so their relevance to the fans overrides any authorial intentionality.

IF we have to stick on the Souls series, here's a another example: while I never cared that much about the "lore details", a big part of the appeal of Dark Souls 1 to me remains -to this day- its crepuscular and decadent atmosphere. If the creators themselves would come and say "That was completely by accident because our environmental artist couldn't pull off what we asked of him" that wouldn't change a single thing about my fondness for what we have.
 
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Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
That's completely irrelevant.

I disagree. The basis of the complaint is that there's a meta-narrative that isn't reflected in the remake. If it doesn't exist, or even if its ambiguous in the original material, how can you fault Bluepoint for not incorporating it?

The bottom line is the flawed expectation that a certain interpretation is canon, when it actually isn't.

I used "Fan Fiction" as a short-hand for this sort of extrapolated meaning. You have to agree that FROM's stuff thrives on ambiguity! It lays out the dots but asks the player to connect them, a method while interesting and fun isn't going to resolve to absolute canonical "fact".

This seems to be lost on a lot of super-fans who are entirely locked into their chosen interpretations and get upset when anything subsequently contradicts it. Hence videos like this which trade under the guise that there's an absolute underlying canonical framework that must be respected.
 
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Spiral1407

Member
"The remake's soundtrack is just generic orchestral slop!"

- Remake's OST literally sounds closer to other FROM games' OSTs than the original Demon's Souls itself.

Which begs the question: Is Demon's Souls on PS3 the way it is because that was Miyazaki's intent? Or because they didn't have the budget, the manpower and the tech knowledge to make it closer to the remake? Because if you look upon Bloodborne, Dark Souls III, and Elder Ring, they look more similar to the remake than they do with the DS PS3 version
My problem with it is that none of it is memorable. I can still remember tracks from Bloodborne despite dropping that game 5y ago. Same thing with the OG Demon's Souls.

In contrast, I remember nothing from remake despite beating it last year. And I'm not alone on this.
 

Nickolaidas

Member
I disagree. The basis of the complaint is that there's a meta-narrative that isn't reflected in the remake. If it doesn't exist, or even if its ambiguous in the original material, how can you fault Bluepoint for not incorporating it?

The bottom line is the flawed expectation that a certain interpretation is canon, when it actually isn't.

I used "Fan Fiction" as a short-hand for this sort of extrapolated meaning. You have to agree that FROM's stuff thrives on ambiguity! It lays out the dots but asks the player to connect them, a method while interesting and fun isn't going to resolve to absolute canonical "fact".

This seems to be lost on a lot of super-fans who are entirely locked into their chosen interpretations and get upset when anything subsequently contradicts it. Hence videos like this which trade under the guise that there's an absolute underlying canonical framework that must be respected.
I agree. People act as if every fucking pebble in the original's textures is the freakin' Mona Lisa and the second you take it out, the entire structure crumbles.

I mean, we're talking about a project which devs were debating to axe and it changed director in order to save the project. You're telling me that every single asset, every single object in the game, every single thing is not part of the stuff they kept solely because they didn't have time to rework or change? I mean, for fuck's sake, there is an entire 'world' they had to take out, a world which has assets inside the disc, a world which is mentioned by the monumental, a world whose gate is 'broken' because the devs didn't have the time or the budget to finish. This is literal proof that the final project is incomplete and is not the true vision of Miyazaki for the game. Who knows what else they wanted to make, but couldn't? Who knows what they would have added if they had the time? Who's to tell us that Miyazaki wouldn't have his team draw vines into Boletaria's walls if they weren't in a hurry to finish the game?
 

ClosBSAS

Member
They gave a scarf to the knight armor in the remake..gay as fuck. I love the remakes graphics but ya, original is way more fun specially on rpcs3 60gps 4k
 

Filben

Member
Care to share the or some keypoints the video's making? Why is it a disaster? Unless the creater makes some really great points instead of how this matter is usually treated ("I like this"; "I don't like this") there's little relevance to this.

Some of you guys could really put a bit more effort into our original posts if you want to have a discussion and share ideas and views.
 

Killer8

Member
I disagree, its just fan-fiction. Not everything has "meaning" in Souls' Games, that's just projection. FROM are very good at creating the illusion of meaning, which is why we give their massive nonsensical structures a pass!

I've spent literally thousands of hours in their "worlds" and the truth is that the core philosophy is about crafting a compelling gameplay experience, not a consistent story. And certainly not a spatially consistent lore and worldview! I mean, how many times do we run across monsters that are way to big to get in or out of the rooms we find them in? How did they get in there in the first place? Let alone WHY are they just hanging out there ?

Yet we're supposed to think that the level of ornamentation on a castle or fortress wall has to be treated as sacrosanct for lore reasons ?!?
Fuck. Off.

Its a formula. End of.

The problem with the 'fan-fiction', and why I do not subscribe to the sorts of VaatiVidya mental masturbation, is that it conflates a lot of artistic intent, specifically as a means for the developer to instil a certain feeling in the player, with their storytelling intent ie. "that the level of ornamentation on a castle or fortress wall has to be treated as sacrosanct for lore reasons". I do not believe that the decision making at From was as granularly thought out as that.

Many of the things being criticised in the remake are ones which we can see, on face value, change the feeling of the game, and it's perfectly easy to argue why much of that is negative without relying on lore theorising to back any of it up.

I'll use the Tower of Latria sound design example from the video. The video creator goes into great depths about why it was a mistake to have Return to Slumber playing in the background of Latria, because for lore reasons this is meant to only play during the ending, and it has deep significant meaning, and and and - I don't really find that argument interesting. What is more important is how it changes the feel of the level. The original version has no music, relying purely on SFX to create a sense of dread in the player. Via the ambient insect noise and, much more importantly, the periodical sound of the bell chimes, there is the sense that you are trapped in an insect nest which is being punctuated by the sound of your impending doom. The remake, on the other hand, now has a sort of ethereal quality due to the singing. The once sinister bell chimes just sort of blend in amongst that introduced music. They are front and centre in the original so that the player makes the connection very rapidly that if they hear that bell chime among the relative silence, it's very likely all going to be over soon. It highlights how a good sound mix which places more emphasis on certain sounds above others can heighten tension.

The other example of the Fat Official is another one to mention. I still do not know, or really care much, about who this character actually is or what he represents like the video speculates. But it's very apparent what sort of feeling the different designs create:



No fan-fiction voice over in the video, just a clear presentation of the designs. There is a sadistic glee to the character in the original with the grinning death mask, the jovial laugh, as well as the almost comical running animation. It's creepy in the way that an evil clown is. The remake on the other hand replaces that with something that just looks explicitly threatening, like a fat footie hooligan who's upset that Gregg's ran out of sausage rolls. A clear difference in feeling.

It isn't even a case of the original being far too ambiguous because of a lack of polygons and Bluepoint just didn't know what to do with the material - they've chosen to go in the opposite direction of the source here. Turn that frown upside down, Bluepoint:

0cO4vKR.jpeg



On the subject of ambiguity in the games, of course there is some level of that in the storytelling. One of Miyazaki's game's greatest strengths is how fans can spin these elaborate theories out of what seems like nothing. Miyazaki himself said in an interview regarding storytelling:

“I kind of have a virtual pendulum in my mind. Generally, every other game I make is inscrutable and interpretive, then the next one is easier to understand. Armored Core 4 was my first game as a director. That was really hard to understand, but then my next one, For Answer was a lot more approachable. Then Demon’s Souls was inscrutable, Dark Souls more approachable, and now we have Bloodborne."

So there is a lot of wiggle room, with Demon's Souls in particular, in how people can interpret who someone like the Fat Official is, what his back story is, who he represents, etc. It's VaatiVidya fodder and Miyazaki knows it. But I do not think everything behind From's design ethos is rooted in ambiguity. Miyazaki's other quotes in the video indicate that there is a certain feel which he wanted to create:

"You may not believe me, but I always tried to maintain a certain level of refinement and elegance in all designs. I often told the artists that muddy or messy is definitely not good. I think this carries through the entire game."

I take from that quote a few things:

First, that there was intent behind the designs in the game. Even if what that was is not explicitly spelled out in the interview ("a certain level of refinement and elegance" is vague), and it may not exactly align with the reasoning that fan theories try to later give, Miyazaki still had a specific idea of what he wanted. We might never know his exact thought process but we also can't just say it's all ambiguous, or unfinished, or whatever, so Bluepoint should therefore just do whatever they want to the designs.

Second, it suggests that artists were not simply given free reign. They were explicitly instructed by Miyazaki on what he wanted (or rather didn't want) when creating the designs. It's one thing to write off someone's silly elaborate theory, like the Elden Ring color theory one, as something vague they pulled out of their ass. It's very different to say that the original character designs are similarly malleable and open to interpretation by others, when there were explicit instructions and feedback given by Miyazaki during their creation.

And finally, when Miyazaki says that this carries through the entire game, it's a sign that this instruction also likely applied to things like level design and architecture. Miyazaki is not shy that the design of his games is all just his personal preference. Very likely the castle battlements look the way they do because Miyazaki saw that design in a medieval book and wanted to recreate it in the game. But that was still intent, for a specific feel, and Bluepoint deciding to change that into a Gothic looking structure from hundreds of years in the future would be going against that.

Yeah, but back then FROM's games looked like they were a gen ago. I mean, look at Demon's Souls (PS3) next to Last of Us (PS3). FROM sucked donkey dick in terms of visuals back then, and it's only due to Miyazaki's incredible artistic direction that the game still has some breathtaking shots, even back then.

First time I saw the dragon circle the castle from afar as I was shuffling through the undercorridors of Boletaria had my heart pumping. Miyazaki was and is a true master in making castles out of cards.

So the game was a technical let down on PS3 which was only saved by Miyazaki's incredible artistic direction, yet you've been whining the whole thread whenever people bring up instances of that artistic vision being changed.

Right...
 

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Reminds me of a YouTuber bitching about the Skylights and sky backdrops in Tomb Raider Remastered.
While also forgetting it would be pitch black if no light got in 🙄
 

Nickolaidas

Member
So the game was a technical let down on PS3 which was only saved by Miyazaki's incredible artistic direction, yet you've been whining the whole thread whenever people bring up instances of that artistic vision being changed.
Just because I loved many of the things Miyazaki did on the original doesn't mean I am completely indifferent to other things. I can *see* that they made a change to the fat official, I just think it's a nothingburger.
 

Radical_3d

Member
Miyazaki’s “artistic” vision was to salvage a failed game which was way long in development and was already decided to be cancelled. Something which was made in a matter of months. He wanted to test some new ideas that, yes, were revolutionary about the use of online in single player. But that’s it.
 

nkarafo

Member
I just think it's a nothingburger.
You might think that but others clearly don't for a number of legitimate reasons. Some more or less legit than others. But i can clearly see where they come from.

Your degrading "Only a donkey arse licking peanut butter window licker would not have an instant erection at the perfect glory that is DS remake" and "lol, lmao, even" style posts don't help. You just come of as an unhinged troll.
 

KimDongHwan

Member
Finished watching the video, I think this is the first time I've changed so much my perception of what I thought to be true with a single video. Before going in I was on the boat of "The remake was great, looked great and played great so this video is probably nitpicking on stuff" but then wow, the amount of changes that were done for particularly no reason at all really looks to be a bit "disrespectful". Like the change of the statue of Old King Doran :/ hopefully none of it was done with bad intentions but just lack of understanding of Miyazaki's work.
 

GametimeUK

Member
"The remake was great, looked great and played great so this video is probably nitpicking on stuff"

To be fair I still think the remake is great, looks great and plays great. Yeah, they really did stray far away from the originals art style and basically did whatever they wanted with it instead of staying true to the art style. To me it's excellent, but it does not resemble the original.

What changes in particular swayed your opinion? (Other than the statue)
 
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MMaRsu

Member
The problem with the 'fan-fiction', and why I do not subscribe to the sorts of VaatiVidya mental masturbation, is that it conflates a lot of artistic intent, specifically as a means for the developer to instil a certain feeling in the player, with their storytelling intent ie. "that the level of ornamentation on a castle or fortress wall has to be treated as sacrosanct for lore reasons". I do not believe that the decision making at From was as granularly thought out as that.

Many of the things being criticised in the remake are ones which we can see, on face value, change the feeling of the game, and it's perfectly easy to argue why much of that is negative without relying on lore theorising to back any of it up.

I'll use the Tower of Latria sound design example from the video. The video creator goes into great depths about why it was a mistake to have Return to Slumber playing in the background of Latria, because for lore reasons this is meant to only play during the ending, and it has deep significant meaning, and and and - I don't really find that argument interesting. What is more important is how it changes the feel of the level. The original version has no music, relying purely on SFX to create a sense of dread in the player. Via the ambient insect noise and, much more importantly, the periodical sound of the bell chimes, there is the sense that you are trapped in an insect nest which is being punctuated by the sound of your impending doom. The remake, on the other hand, now has a sort of ethereal quality due to the singing. The once sinister bell chimes just sort of blend in amongst that introduced music. They are front and centre in the original so that the player makes the connection very rapidly that if they hear that bell chime among the relative silence, it's very likely all going to be over soon. It highlights how a good sound mix which places more emphasis on certain sounds above others can heighten tension.

The other example of the Fat Official is another one to mention. I still do not know, or really care much, about who this character actually is or what he represents like the video speculates. But it's very apparent what sort of feeling the different designs create:



No fan-fiction voice over in the video, just a clear presentation of the designs. There is a sadistic glee to the character in the original with the grinning death mask, the jovial laugh, as well as the almost comical running animation. It's creepy in the way that an evil clown is. The remake on the other hand replaces that with something that just looks explicitly threatening, like a fat footie hooligan who's upset that Gregg's ran out of sausage rolls. A clear difference in feeling.

It isn't even a case of the original being far too ambiguous because of a lack of polygons and Bluepoint just didn't know what to do with the material - they've chosen to go in the opposite direction of the source here. Turn that frown upside down, Bluepoint:

0cO4vKR.jpeg



On the subject of ambiguity in the games, of course there is some level of that in the storytelling. One of Miyazaki's game's greatest strengths is how fans can spin these elaborate theories out of what seems like nothing. Miyazaki himself said in an interview regarding storytelling:



So there is a lot of wiggle room, with Demon's Souls in particular, in how people can interpret who someone like the Fat Official is, what his back story is, who he represents, etc. It's VaatiVidya fodder and Miyazaki knows it. But I do not think everything behind From's design ethos is rooted in ambiguity. Miyazaki's other quotes in the video indicate that there is a certain feel which he wanted to create:



I take from that quote a few things:

First, that there was intent behind the designs in the game. Even if what that was is not explicitly spelled out in the interview ("a certain level of refinement and elegance" is vague), and it may not exactly align with the reasoning that fan theories try to later give, Miyazaki still had a specific idea of what he wanted. We might never know his exact thought process but we also can't just say it's all ambiguous, or unfinished, or whatever, so Bluepoint should therefore just do whatever they want to the designs.

Second, it suggests that artists were not simply given free reign. They were explicitly instructed by Miyazaki on what he wanted (or rather didn't want) when creating the designs. It's one thing to write off someone's silly elaborate theory, like the Elden Ring color theory one, as something vague they pulled out of their ass. It's very different to say that the original character designs are similarly malleable and open to interpretation by others, when there were explicit instructions and feedback given by Miyazaki during their creation.

And finally, when Miyazaki says that this carries through the entire game, it's a sign that this instruction also likely applied to things like level design and architecture. Miyazaki is not shy that the design of his games is all just his personal preference. Very likely the castle battlements look the way they do because Miyazaki saw that design in a medieval book and wanted to recreate it in the game. But that was still intent, for a specific feel, and Bluepoint deciding to change that into a Gothic looking structure from hundreds of years in the future would be going against that.



So the game was a technical let down on PS3 which was only saved by Miyazaki's incredible artistic direction, yet you've been whining the whole thread whenever people bring up instances of that artistic vision being changed.

Right...

You are 100% correct in that the changes made are for the worst in that the atmosphere of the levels is changed. Latria was a creepy af place in the of, now its not.

I dont actually give a fuck about the lore in these games and have never watched a vaatividya or whatever, but there is a story, there is lore present there.

And the changes made to the remake are just for the worst. The sound design is wack, the menu sounds are gone, the music is changed.

And I dont like things that are different
 

nkarafo

Member
Finally watched the whole video and wow, the OST changes are completely stupid. So much was changed to generic "epic" choir. Couldn't be more uninspired and cliched.
 
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