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[SlimySnake]

The duality of man

Graphics thread. Graphics discussion.

I am able to separate gameplay from graphics. The gameplay sucks ass but to see the graphics being downplayed in a graphics thread just because the game isnt open world is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Snake29]

This is the fifth ue5 game and nothing has even come close to this level of fidelity. if it was this easy everyone would be doing it.

and yet you are downplaying hellblade 2 which looks better than both death stranding and hfw just because its not open world. whats next? tlou2 isnt impressive because its not open world?

Sure, UE5 is amazing and in the right hands, it will let them achieve these visuals. Only problem is that no one else has achieved this, let alone easily. especially sony devs who have made cross gen games that dont have access to features like lumen, nanite and draw distance.

Then you have geniuses like ND, Insomniac and Bluepoint who decided to target 60 fps or native 4k resolutions despite being given the greenlight to make next gen only games. I am sorry, they tried and failed. Mission failed, we will get them next time.

now is the time to praise Ninja THeory, not some Sony dev who have not made a game with UE5 or features with UE5. At least Ubisoft Massive and Remedy used mesh shaders, and Respawn and Massive have used RTGI which is even more accurate than Lumen. Sony studios have not used RTGI and aside from Insomniac, not a single sony studio has used any kind of rt feature. Sorry, but this is the one time i wont stan for sony studios. they delivered in 2020, 2021 and 2022 when ms was asleep, but last two years they have been shown up by massive and other studios. And this year, ninja theory has shown just how far behind those sony studios really are. when they show up with these visuals, UE5 or not then i will give them their due credit.

until then, lets celebrate ninja theory today.

So i was correct. We are praising the engine?

ninja theory has shown just how far behind those sony studios really are. when they show up with these visuals, UE5 or not then i will give them their due credit.

Incredibly exaggerated claim you make. They showed they can work with UE5, nothing more then that. Everything else in the game is pretty weak.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Graphics thread. Graphics discussion.

I am able to separate gameplay from graphics. The gameplay sucks ass but to see the graphics being downplayed in a graphics thread just because the game isnt open world is absolutely ridiculous.

I'm just fucking with you lol

 

[SlimySnake]

I'm just fucking with you lol

i thought about going all punished miku on you but didnt think people would get the joke across threads. and i dont feel like getting banned on memorial day weekend.

 

[HeWhoWalks]

This is the fifth ue5 game and nothing has even come close to this level of fidelity. if it was this easy everyone would be doing it.

and yet you are downplaying hellblade 2 which looks better than both death stranding and hfw just because its not open world. whats next? tlou2 isnt impressive because its not open world?

Sure, UE5 is amazing and in the right hands, it will let them achieve these visuals. Only problem is that no one else has achieved this, let alone easily. especially sony devs who have made cross gen games that dont have access to features like lumen, nanite and draw distance.

Then you have geniuses like ND, Insomniac and Bluepoint who decided to target 60 fps or native 4k resolutions despite being given the greenlight to make next gen only games. I am sorry, they tried and failed. Mission failed, we will get them next time.

now is the time to praise Ninja THeory, not some Sony dev who have not made a game with UE5 or features with UE5. At least Ubisoft Massive and Remedy used mesh shaders, and Respawn and Massive have used RTGI which is even more accurate than Lumen. Sony studios have not used RTGI and aside from Insomniac, not a single sony studio has used any kind of rt feature. Sorry, but this is the one time i wont stan for sony studios. they delivered in 2020, 2021 and 2022 when ms was asleep, but last two years they have been shown up by massive and other studios. And this year, ninja theory has shown just how far behind those sony studios really are. when they show up with these visuals, UE5 or not then i will give them their due credit.

until then, lets celebrate ninja theory today.

The problem with what you are presenting is the games you are talking about are doing a lot more than Hellblade II. Right now, said game achieved those visuals with very little happening at any given minute. Besides, it was Microsoft who pushed the 4K/60/120fps narrative and only achieved what they did here by completely ignoring ⅔ of it.

Now, I'm all for the best looking visuals possible, because I work professionally with graphics and love watching games get closer to what I can do offline. But, because of that, and because of what it took to get to Hellblade II's overall fidelity, I'm not going to piss on other games that were also impressive this gen (cross gen or otherwise). We can be happy for it on its own merits.

 

[adamsapple]

Yeah, the water physics isn't one of the game's strong suits.

I'm legitimately surprised you feel this way, the first 5 minutes of the game has some very impressive rain / stream work, even DF point it out in the video / article

Another effect that impressed me is the water - specifically the way it interacts with the environments. You begin the game washed up on a beach and I immediately appreciated the excellent visualisation of waves crashing on the shore. In that same scene, an intense rainfall fills the scene with beautiful particles that convincingly capture the feeling of inclement weather. The mix of rain and volumetrics is simply beautiful, but I was equally impressed by the game's water streaming system - which often falls short in even some of the most high-profile triple-A titles. There's even a scene where you drain a lake to reveal an underground passage which just looks amazing in motion.

 

[SlimySnake]

Incredibly exaggerated claim you make. They showed they can work with UE5, nothing more then that. Everything else in the game is pretty weak.

People who have played the game know there is nothing exaggerated about that claim. Hellblade 2 is the first true next gen game we've seen in every single aspect of its presentation from character models to lighting to asset density to asset quality, draw distance, water rendering, weather effects, fog, smoke, reflections, cinematics, pop-in, cutscene transitions, everything.

you should give it a try. it's $1 on pc gamepass.

 

[SlimySnake]

The problem with what you are presenting is the games you are talking about are doing a lot more than Hellblade II. Right now, said game achieved those visuals with very little happening at any given minute. Besides, it was Microsoft who pushed the 4K/60/120fps narrative and only achieved what they did here by completely ignoring that.

Now, I'm all for the best looking visuals possible, because I work professionally with graphics and love watching games get closer to what I can do offline. But, because of that, and because of what it took to get to Hellblade II's overall fidelity, I'm not going to piss on other games that were also impressive this gen (cross gen or otherwise). Be happy for it on its own merits.

i didnt want to piss on sony games i spent three years praising and giffing and giving my graphics goty either. ive spent countless posts discussing ratchet, demon souls, horizon fw in the graphics thread and why i ranked them goty in their respective years. I didnt bring them up here, the other guy did and I literally said its time to praise the new king in town instead of downplaying it by using sony studios to create some kind of warrior narrative.

 

[Mr Moose]

I'm legitimately surprised you feel this way, the first 5 minutes of the game has some very impressive rain / stream work, even DF point it out in the video / article

Character interaction is the problem.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

I'm on series s so everything looks like a blurry piece of shit anyway. Sweet animations tho

 

[OverHeat]

I'm on series s so everything looks like a blurry piece of shit anyway. Sweet animations tho

 

[Kilau]

The image is a bit soft on the Series X, I’ll need to crank up the Sony TV reality create and flip on the free 60fps mode.

 

[adamsapple]

So i was correct. We are praising the engine?

?

Yes, UE5 is a very powerful engine and as pointed out by DF, other games have used its native features in tandem before as well but this is by-far the most impressive example. The artists work goes a long way.

As an example, if UE5 alone was the magic bullet, SH2 remake would look a lot better than it did in the last trailer.

Look at these flat wall textures and flat lighting, no tessellation, no nothing.

The image is a bit soft on the Series X, I’ll need to crank up the Sony TV reality create and flip on the free 60fps mode.

If you turn on motion smoothing, I'll sick Tom Cruise on your ass.

 

[HeWhoWalks]

i didnt want to piss on sony games i spent three years praising and giffing and giving my graphics goty either. ive spent countless posts discussing ratchet, demon souls, horizon fw in the graphics thread and why i ranked them goty in their respective years. I didnt bring them up here, the other guy did and I literally said its time to praise the new king in town instead of downplaying it by using sony studios to create some kind of warrior narrative.

I only saw him mention Death Stranding (unless I missed it). Regardless, I agree that Hellblade deserves accolades for what it achieved regardless of how it did it.

 

[Kilau]

If you turn on motion smoothing, I'll sick Tom Cruise on your ass.

Don’t threaten me with a good time!

 

[Boaty McBoatface]

Game looks amazing on Series X, but switching between Hellblade 1 and 2 you notice the difference in overall image quality and sharpness, with 1 looking cleaner and crisper. 2 almost looks too 'smeary'.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Graphics thread. Graphics discussion.

I am able to separate gameplay from graphics. The gameplay sucks ass but to see the graphics being downplayed in a graphics thread just because the game isnt open world is absolutely ridiculous.

Who wants to play games that aren't.....games?

Otherwise, why wouldn't we praise the Dark Sorcerer PS4 tech demo?

 

[HeWhoWalks]

Game looks amazing on Series X, but switching between Hellblade 1 and 2 you notice the difference in overall image quality and sharpness, with 1 looking cleaner and crisper. 2 almost looks too 'smeary'.

PC version with some ini adjusts really shines in this respect. Once you turn all that off, the art just blooms!

Also, on the topic of whether or not Hellblade is a "game", it only feels as if there is less gameplay than your traditional 3D adventure game, but is very much a video game. It's just one of those experiences that is more on the niche side of things, and once you go in prepared for that, you start to appreciate it for what it is, particularly if graphics are a big deal to you.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

i didnt want to piss on sony games i spent three years praising and giffing and giving my graphics goty either. ive spent countless posts discussing ratchet, demon souls, horizon fw in the graphics thread and why i ranked them goty in their respective years. I didnt bring them up here, the other guy did and I literally said its time to praise the new king in town instead of downplaying it by using sony studios to create some kind of warrior narrative.

You mostly complained about them being cross gen rather than praising them, let's be honest bruh.

 

[SlimySnake]

I only saw him mention Death Stranding (unless I missed it). Regardless, I agree that Hellblade deserves accolades for what it achieved regardless of how it did it.

He brought up HFW first then death stranding in a later post. See below.

While HB2 is impressive looking. These shots also show directly that it's just a game and why i think comparing it with HFW which already has high quality models with the scale of the game. HB2 shows what you can do with graphics if the rest of the game is limited and almost onrails. It's like you always walk on a small sidewalk and nothing more. HFW is in that case already a bigger achievement with all the different mechanics, enemies on screens, graphics, ai etc.

It's easy to downplay other games for graphics, while imo, a game like HFW is much more impressive with all the high quality visuals on top of the open world, air and sea and all the mechanics, npc's, combat and gameplay around it. The new Death Stranding game also showed how freaking powerful Decima Engine is.

Then says Sony devs can do this easily. My point is that if it was so easy then ND, Insomniac, GG, PD, SSM, BP, Housemarque who have all released games so far this gen wouldve achieved it.

That's why i think that every capable developer, let's say the world class Sony devs, can achieve this easily or go even beyond this with UE5. Not because of the developer alone but more the Engine and tools around it.

We have had five UE5 games released so far. None have come close. I am all for giving devs credit and im doing that right now despite rage quitting the game earlier this morning. you can read my meltdown in the review thread. But im here precisely because NT artists have gone above and beyond just using lumen and nanite. they have created something truly praiseworthy.

 

[balls of snow]

We have reach the zenith. I would be happy with these kinds of graphics all the way deep into the ps6 gen. I say right now the challenge is to make open world game and without those black bars at the same level of fidelity. The rivulets of water when a passageway opens up. Are my eyes even real at this point.

 

[HeWhoWalks]

He brought up HFW first then death stranding in a later post. See below.



Then says Sony devs can do this easily. My point is that if it was so easy then ND, Insomniac, GG, PD, SSM, BP, Housemarque who have all released games so far this gen wouldve achieved it.


We have had five UE5 games released so far. None have come close. I am all for giving devs credit and im doing that right now despite rage quitting the game earlier this morning. you can read my meltdown in the review thread. But im here precisely because NT artists have gone above and beyond just using lumen and nanite. they have created something truly praiseworthy.

Oh yeah, no UE5 games are on this level. Of course, that's to be expected — most of the top UE4 and UE3 games were exclusives with high budgets or a console manufac. to aid them too.

As for ease, it's a matter of resources and where you put them, not lack of capability (especially a top Sony dev). Sony's teams decided to focus on other things so far (higher frames, raytracing, etc). Ninja Theory decided to mainly focus on visuals and that's what we got. It's chasing the perfection of an artform.

 

[DanielG165]

Who wants to play games that aren't.....games?

Otherwise, why wouldn't we praise the Dark Sorcerer PS4 tech demo?

That’s a bit of a reach. The gameplay of HB2 is basic and straightforward overall, but there is very much still plenty gameplay there. It also just happens to… Look the best on top of it.

 

[Gaiff]

Too much dishonesty in this thread because of who developed the game and who the publisher is. The original Death Stranding on the level of this game? This has to be trolling.

Probably is the best-looking game at the moment but definitely not the most impressive or awe-inspiring. The scale is too small, the environments are too constrained, and everything feels too claustrophobic (which I guess is what the dev was going for anyway).

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

That’s a bit of a reach. The gameplay of HB2 is basic and straightforward overall, but there is very much still plenty gameplay there. It also just happens to… Look the best on top of it.

There's no gameplay at all as far as I'm concerned it might as well play itself and be a cutscene

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

That’s a bit of a reach. The gameplay of HB2 is basic and straightforward overall, but there is very much still plenty gameplay there. It also just happens to… Look the best on top of it.

Just stick to priasing what it's best at. No need to give them credit where credit is undue

 

[adamsapple]

We have reach the zenith. I would be happy with these kinds of graphics all the way deep into the ps6 gen. I say right now the challenge is to make open world game and without those black bars at the same level of fidelity. The rivulets of water when a passageway opens up. Are my eyes even real at this point.

This level of fidelity with the scope of semi open-worlds next gen should be the baseline next gen.

I expect Coalition to do some fantastic things with UE5 for Gears 6 but I doubt they reach this level of fidelity with the kind of frantic action and scale Gears 5 had, on this console hardware.

 

[Gaiff]

There's no gameplay at all as far as I'm concerned it might as well play itself and be a cutscene

There definitely is gameplay. It's just really basic. It's not like you're "playing" Until Dawn. You got the regular combat stuff like weak attack, strong attack, dodging, rolling, guard break, etc. You got really simple puzzles that consist so far of just lining up symbols to open doors. It's there but barely serviceable. This might have been better as a TV series.

 

[GudOlRub]

I'm already imagining Kojima salivating while playing this, getting on the phone and telling his engineers to get on working on a nanite-like system for Decima

Spoiler

For real though, one of the main appeals of DS for me was just taking in the view and admiring the details from the environments in that game, I really hope they develop and take advantage of tech like this for DS2...

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

This level of fidelity with the scope of semi open-worlds next gen should be the baseline next gen.

I expect Coalition to do some fantastic things with UE5 for Gears 6 but I doubt they reach this level of fidelity with the kind of frantic action and scale Gears 5 had.

Do we really think this is going to happen barring GTA 6? Everyone makes such a big deal over dev costs that i think we've pretty much hit a wall. We'll either get really good looking tech demos or good looking games.

 

[DanielG165]

So i was correct. We are praising the engine?

We’re praising both. We’re praising the tool, and the artists who knew how to properly take advantage of it. This game didn’t just happen because 80 people pushed some buttons for 4 years. I can hand an average person my DSLR and tell them to go shoot for an hour. They may have a great tool in their hands, but that does not correlate to them being able to produce great results with it, have an eye for photography, and know how to take full advantage of said tool.

UE5 is really great dough or really great ingredients. That doesn’t mean it’s going to automatically make a flame mignon.

 

[Thanati]

I miss the days when the gaming was all about fun. Nowadays, it's just visual, 60fps 4k, 8k, 120fps, high graphic boring stuff.

I agree, 100%!

I played the original Halo a few weeks ago and was immediately drawn into it again, regardless of the (now) outdated visuals.

 

[DanielG165]

Do we really think this is going to happen barring GTA 6?

Probably not this generation, but by PS6 and the next Xbox, we could certainly see more games with fidelity like HB2.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Probably not this generation, but by PS6 and the next Xbox, we could certainly see more games with fidelity like HB2.

I'm not expecting it. I'm not saying this as a tech issue. If you want actual games then you can't strive for Hellblade's level of fidelity

Well I guess you can. But it'll be really inconsistent.

 

[DavidGzz]

That Part I shot is good enough that it's not a complete shutout vs Hellblade II, is my point. I can get behind the argument that Hellblade II is on top, but the hyperbolic "nothing comes close" is what I challenge.

The overall package is a head above the rest. I think Alan Wake 2's environments are close but it's the combination of the character graphics and animation moving through the environment that raises the bar. In comparison AW2 is so static. Even the shrubbery doesn't deform in that game. HB2 is like a peek at what Naughty Dog will do with TLOU3. I think that somehow, ND will improve on these animations too. I can't wait to see more games look like this.

 

[HeWhoWalks]

The overall package is a head above the rest. I think Alan Wake 2's environments are close but it's the combination of the character graphics and animation moving through the environment that raises the bar. In comparison AW2 is so static. Even the shrubbery doesn't deform in that game. HB2 is like a peek at what Naughty Dog will do with TLOU3. I think that somehow, ND will improve on these animations too. I can't wait to see more games look like this.

Hellblade suffers from static assets as well though. Both it and Wake fall short in this area.

Visually speaking, it's Hellblade's presentation and not necessarily individual graphics that make it such a rich and stunning package.

 

[adamsapple]

Do we really think this is going to happen barring GTA 6? Everyone makes such a big deal over dev costs that i think we've pretty much hit a wall. We'll either get really good looking tech demos or good looking games.

You mean this level of fidelity on a notably bigger scope? Definitely not impossible but none of the projects we know of, or have seen, so far show that. GTA VI might be the only outlier but that really depends on how much of that announcement trailer is representative of the game on consoles and how much is Watch Dogs 1 style BS artistry.

The Battlefield games are usually pretty good for their tech for the respective times they release on, let's see how good next year BF game is.

CoD's are good but they're persistently stuck in the cross-gen loop so they can only do so much.

 

[Balducci30]

Do we really think this is going to happen barring GTA 6? Everyone makes such a big deal over dev costs that i think we've pretty much hit a wall. We'll either get really good looking tech demos or good looking games.

Possibly next gen Witcher or cyberpunk?

 

[Beechos]

Game is lovely and it isn't boring, finished the hidden world level last night and found it pretty tense and exciting. The atmosphere created by the sound and visuals in the level was amazing, like the move the decent in game form, some jump scares and sense of threat round every cocorner.

Yeah game is not boring at all. Some of the forced walking segments can be shortened a little but I get it they want you to get an idea of her psyche.

 

[hussar16]

Downgrade

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Possibly next gen Witcher or cyberpunk?

Those games are going to be way too big.

Everyone praises Cyberpunk's fidelity, but that's when you take in the scenes as a whole, but if you actully look at the nooks and crannies it's an ugly game. Same applies to most games frankly

 

[Beechos]

So, can we realistically expect this kind of output in more complex current gen games where combat makes 40 or 60 kind of necessary? Or is this more of a tease but possible in the next-gen future for those games?

I think so the amount of enemies on the screen will prob be very limited though. I can def see survivor horror games looking like this. Imagine a resident evil in this fidelity.

 

[Mortisfacio]

The most impressive before and after comparison for me was that segment with the giant. Short of the flames, it was spot on with what they showed with no other downgrades. Truly looks amazing.

The most jarring part of my experience, however, was the over emphasis on cinematic fighting. I had multiple times in fight sequences where Senua would be pulled and sort of glide to a location then initiate the 1v1 fight. My assumption is the intention is they want you to have a more specific location relative to a specific backdrop to emphasize the cinematic nature of it, but... damn. Really rips the immersion when an otherwise intense scene both visually and audio side, but then Senua is gliding around to a pre-determined location.

 

[Mr Moose]

- Nanite is extensively used and eliminates visible pop-in even during scene transitions

Is this talking about rocks? Because grass pops in.

 

[Balducci30]

Those games are going to be way too big.

Everyone praises Cyberpunk's fidelity, but that's when you take in the scenes as a whole, but if you actully look at the nooks and crannies it's an ugly game. Same applies to most games frankly

I feel like if you look at the character models they may be able to get there next generation. Judy and pan am looked great - it won’t be as consistent but that’s fine

 

[unlurkified]

So at 33 mins you’re looking at seeing about a tenth of the entire game. Want to watch but will wait to play the game later at discount.

This does feel a lot like an Order 1886 moment though.

 

[Kataploom]

Listen to John in the video (who's a big PS fan). Nothing is doing everything to the level of HB2. Sure path-tracing is superior but only Cyberpunk is doing that correctly. AW2 takes short cuts in that regard.

Character rendering, animation, environmental effects are a level above any of the games you mentioned. In the case of Forbidden West the lighting on that is a generation behind.

Nanite is also producing geometric details not possible in the games you mentioned, like it or not HB2 is the new benchmark and will likely remain so until 2025.

I'm pretty sure AW2 had it's equivalent to Nanite, my problem with Remedy games (and I haven't played AW2 yet but it looks prevalent there too) is that their shadows and reflections are full of noise, like it they were using some kind of dithering which breaks the whole IQ to me

 

[adamsapple]

Is this talking about rocks? Because grass pops in.

They don't mention foliage pop-in specifically but just say that Nanite virtually eliminates pop-in.

Then there's Epic's next-gen geometry system: Nanite. This is designed to allow extreme mesh density while virtually eliminating visible pop-in. That means that as you move through the game world, everything remains stable without asset draw-in and other distracting artefacts. That aspect by itself is deeply impressive and contributes to the photorealism on display. Ninja Theory really flexes this when transitioning between different scenes: as the camera swoops down from above, there is simply no visible pop-in within the presentation - a rare thing when moving at speed over vast vistas.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Is this talking about rocks? Because grass pops in.

AFAIK, Nanite only works on static geometry. So grass implemented using splines or other dynamic geometry would not be touched by Nanite.

 

[RPS37]

Honest question .
after this video has released and the weekend passes, does the CCU go up or what?