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[DarkJediKnight]

How I see it:

1. Senna
2. Hamilton
3. Schumacher

Schumacher coming back from retirement was a disaster. He was trounced by Rosberg.
Rosberg literally sold himself to the devil all season, locking himself up and thinking of nothing more than winning the title.
Hamilton never had a teammate who was told not to race him.
That to me is the biggest strike against Schumacher. You can say all you want about how he put together laps, driving in the rain etc. But his desire to make sure the 2nd car was instructed not to beat him is a black mark and it will always be.

 

[Mohonky]

I'm surprised so many people find Hamilton unlikeable. What is it that irks you guys about him?

His politics annoy people (BLM, anti-racism) and some of his lifestyle choices (Veganism, environmentalism, his side antics in fashion etc).

But even before all of that, a lot of people just sort of had it in for him the moment he got into F1. For some its just the fact he started at a top team, for some it was lie-gate and suspicion he was favoured over Alonso....some maybe just straight up because he's black, you know there's at least a few.

But otherwise I dunno, he's always been kind of polarising for some people. Jacki Stewart has had a bug up his ass about Hamilton since the moment he got in a car which makes me laugh everytime Jackie has to stand there and watch Hamilton break another record.

I dunno, I've liked him since Australia 2007. Seeing a young guy get in a car and immediately take it to a 2 x WDC (you know, one that beat Schumacher to WDC twice.....) and the first time he gets into an F1 car Hamilton is straight on pace. Hamilton was probably faster at McLaren in those years tbh, younger and just a lot less cautious. Then he had a few shit years (you could tell a shit year every time he broke up with whatever her name was) but he was still fast and has the record for only driver to win a race in every year he's competed irrespective of the cars performance that year. Lauda I think is one of the biggest factors in Hamilton being where he is, he wanted Hamilton in the team and it was a time Hamilton was still fast but prone to hot and cold periods as well as letting off track shit effect his on track performance. Lauda basically seemed to get him to get over his shit and make him focus when he was st the track.

In terms of raw speed, I reckon Hamilton is slower over a single lap than he was when he was younger, just comes with age, but his consistency, ability to manage car and tyres, know when to push and when to bide his time and when to pick his overtakes puts him on a whole different level over a race distance.

 

[DrDamn]

Schumacher has too many on track controversies to be considered the greatest in pure terms for me. Australia 1994 where he clearly took out Hill to win the championship and 1997 where he tried but failed to do something similar to Villeneuve. Various team/car issues which suggested cheating at that level too.

The biggest point I'd make in comparing in terms of total wins is this. I agree with many here that each of them has been in a dominant car for much of their career. That makes achieving these numbers much easier. F1 isn't just a driver's championship and sport though, it's about the teams and how well they design a car within the rules. So you will get these situations. The very best teams will want the very best drivers at the time to maximise their chances of winning. The crucial point is that there is always at least one other driver in a car as good as yours every race, and that's your team mate. For the vast majority of Schumacher's career that team mate was not allowed to race him, they were there to support him getting more wins. That is a massive difference when comparing this particular statistic.

I have a lot of respect for Schumacher's raw ability though. When refueling was reintroduced he was a master of putting in laps of outstanding quality and speed at the right time to ensure his strategy have him a race win, even in a less capable car.

 

[Gp1]

How many SNES games has Hamilton been featured in?

How many Genesis games?

And before that how many times Hamilton was the "Akuma" of a racing game?

 

[RaZoR No1]

IMO Schuhmacher and I don't think so because I'm from Germany.
Schumacher build/supported the Ferrari Team from the ground and focused only on getting better etc. Unfortunately his comeback didn't do him any favors.
Hamilton just got an extreme over performing car, where anyone else could win races (see Bottas). Even the pink Mercedes has gained a lot of performance after getting some "inspiration" from the Mercedes. Another thing which shows, how strong mercedes is..
IMO you could put nearly any of the 20 drivers into Mercedes and they could win races.

 

[J-Roderton]

I dunno. I’m a new fan and have only watched each race this season, but the guy is literally never challenged.

 

[The Incarnation]

There's good argument to suggest that Hamilton should've won 2 extra championships at McLaren. You don't just waltz into F1 and match Alonso step by step in your debut season without being super talented.

 

[The Incarnation]

His politics annoy people (BLM, anti-racism) and some of his lifestyle choices (Veganism, environmentalism, his side antics in fashion etc).

But even before all of that, a lot of people just sort of had it in for him the moment he got into F1. For some its just the fact he started at a top team, for some it was lie-gate and suspicion he was favoured over Alonso....some maybe just straight up because he's black, you know there's at least a few.

But otherwise I dunno, he's always been kind of polarising for some people. Jacki Stewart has had a bug up his ass about Hamilton since the moment he got in a car which makes me laugh everytime Jackie has to stand there and watch Hamilton break another record.

I dunno, I've liked him since Australia 2007. Seeing a young guy get in a car and immediately take it to a 2 x WDC (you know, one that beat Schumacher to WDC twice.....) and the first time he gets into an F1 car Hamilton is straight on pace. Hamilton was probably faster at McLaren in those years tbh, younger and just a lot less cautious. Then he had a few shit years (you could tell a shit year every time he broke up with whatever her name was) but he was still fast and has the record for only driver to win a race in every year he's competed irrespective of the cars performance that year. Lauda I think is one of the biggest factors in Hamilton being where he is, he wanted Hamilton in the team and it was a time Hamilton was still fast but prone to hot and cold periods as well as letting off track shit effect his on track performance. Lauda basically seemed to get him to get over his shit and make him focus when he was st the track.

In terms of raw speed, I reckon Hamilton is slower over a single lap than he was when he was younger, just comes with age, but his consistency, ability to manage car and tyres, know when to push and when to bide his time and when to pick his overtakes puts him on a whole different level over a race distance.

Stewart's problem is, that he offered to mentor Hamilton early on, and he turned him down. He's had it in for him ever since.

 

[Ma-Yuan]

Schumacher. I hate Hamilton. I just can't stand him. Also never liked Vettel good that he didn't reach Schumies level.

 

[Raven117]

Cant compare.

 

[TaylorSwiftFan]

F1 is like racing. The people involved making the cash aren’t the biggest factor in the wins.

 

[Fox Mulder]

Sure.

Say what you want about Hamilton, but he has never been called a dirty driver.

Mercedes domination has been relentless and historic, but they have nailed multiple rule changes. The cars are already completely different than 2014 and Mercedes will certainly crush the new 2022 car too. They’re just too good.

 

[Tschumi]

Can I just say this thread is a huge joy and surprise for me? I made it expecting a handful of replies, but instead I've got a surfeit of thoughtful, heavily opinionated and savvy takes from some pretty cool dudes. Thanks a ton guys.

Yeah, I tend to agree that F1 in the 90s was just in general far closer to a blood sport/competitive sport than it is today.

He had half of his bones removed to make himself lighter. Big controversy.

i heard Marilyn Manson had the same thing done to his ribs so he could suck his own wang~

 

[RaZoR No1]

He had half of his bones removed to make himself lighter. Big controversy.

Wait what? There are really rumors, that he has removed some bones, so he has a weight advantage??? This is the first time I heard this one.. But somehow it wouldn't surprise me, if it were true. He probably would go to such extremes, to get the championship.

Sure.

Say what you want about Hamilton, but he has never been called a dirty driver.

Mercedes domination has been relentless and historic, but they have nailed multiple rule changes. The cars are already completely different than 2014 and Mercedes will certainly crush the new 2022 car too. They’re just too good.

I only follow F1 actively since around 2010 and you are right. He is a hard but fair driver and I cannot mention one race or scenario, where he did any dirty things.

A lot of people just don't like him that much, because of his attitude outside of the cockpit. Most racers do not behave like a superstar or record tracks, make political statements etc. He completly enjoys his celebrity life, which is fine by me.
But for a lot of people it just gives the feeling of "I am the king and I can do whatever I want and Win easily" about Hamilton.

What I miss were the times with Nico Rosberg. That rivalry they had since their childhood was very interesting to watch (even if the media overused the topic to many times..) . They pushed each other to and over their limits and really raced like there was no tomorrow.

If you want people to think Hamilton has earned and accomplished a big thing with Mercedes by his skills and not just thanks to his car? Change out Bottas for a Verstappen or someone else, who is on the same level as him so that at least two drivers have a real chance to fight for the championship.

 

[notseqi]

Schumacher was obviously very talented, but he had everything handed to him on a silver platter.

Bridgestone was basically making tires for solely for Ferrari during the tire war and team orders were often employed to his advantage (including crazy things like taking the chassis from his teammates if it suited him).

Furthermore, Michael was a cheater and a poor sportsman. I actually find it disappointing when people say that he's their racing hero.

* the team makes the car, the driver just whips it around the course for a few laps
* everybody switched to michelin, dont fault bridgestone for it
* racing history is full of taking advantage in legal or illegal ways
tech doesn't allow for the thrill anymore
as jeremy clarkson said, (once) you could get to the front just by being determined

fuck F1 and watch long distance racing, LeMans prototypes and the lower participating classes, VLN, anything but that cleaned up bullshit

nice nick, fanboy

 

[acm2000]

there is no such thing as the greatest of all time in motorsport, the sport is contantly evolving with technology thus each driver can only be classed within their era.

schumacher was the greatest of his era even taking in to account for his extremely bad sportsmanship, and hamilton is the greatest of his era.

 

[FunkMiller]

Hamilton is a supremely talented driver, but he was also gifted with a car light years ahead of the competition with the change into the (fucking boring) turbo era.

And while Schumacher also benefited from the best car on the grid quite a lot, the discrepancy was NEVER as large as it has been between Mercedes and everybody else for the past six years.

Schumacher was better.


...oh, and the greatest F1 driver in history in terms of sheer driving talent was of course Ayrton Senna.

 

[Starstruck]

Can you imagine Schumacher at his prime loosing a world championship to his teammate?

 

[notseqi]

i heard Marilyn Manson had the same thing done to his ribs so he could suck his own wang~

That's the real reason they had to invent the HANNS-device, to keep the drivers from sucking themselves off. The slow cars in the back of the field are the same as everybody elses but those drivers are still trying to give themselves a blowie. Once they do wise up any driver is able to win the championship.

 

[BigDeadFreak]

I'd love to get into motor sport but I just find it all so boring. I've watched rallying, NASCAR, touring cars, F1, rallycross, Isle of Man TT, everything I can think of but it just doesn't do it for me. It's annoying because I love cars and have done since I was a kid. I've sunk countless hours into Gran Turismo and Forza and own a 2005 Impreza which I cherish more than anything.

If they could come up with something that didn't have so many laps, with more overtaking and more interesting cars that didn't all look the same and I'd be in. Something that combined the romance of F1 from the 1950s with the madness of Group B rallying would be great.

Modern racing seems so sterile. It's all so safe and clean with none of the bravery or genuine thrills of the past. It's hard to see people like Hamilton in the same way as the likes of Fangio or Senna.

Anyway, I'd probably go for Jim Clark as one of the best of all time. He achieved so much across so many different types of racing. The Grand Tour did a good piece on him:

 

[Spaceman292]

Wait what? There are really rumors, that he has removed some bones, so he has a weight advantage??? This is the first time I heard this one.. But somehow it wouldn't surprise me, if it were true. He probably would go to such extremes, to get the championship.


I only follow F1 actively since around 2010 and you are right. He is a hard but fair driver and I cannot mention one race or scenario, where he did any dirty things.

A lot of people just don't like him that much, because of his attitude outside of the cockpit. Most racers do not behave like a superstar or record tracks, make political statements etc. He completly enjoys his celebrity life, which is fine by me.
But for a lot of people it just gives the feeling of "I am the king and I can do whatever I want and Win easily" about Hamilton.

What I miss were the times with Nico Rosberg. That rivalry they had since their childhood was very interesting to watch (even if the media overused the topic to many times..) . They pushed each other to and over their limits and really raced like there was no tomorrow.

If you want people to think Hamilton has earned and accomplished a big thing with Mercedes by his skills and not just thanks to his car? Change out Bottas for a Verstappen or someone else, who is on the same level as him so that at least two drivers have a real chance to fight for the championship.

I was obviously joking about the bones thing

 

[notseqi]

I was obviously joking about the bones thing

Don't try to cover it up, it's out there now.
And all of a sudden F1 has become a little bit more interesting now that I am imagining they're trying to blow themselves while driving.

 

[GeorgPrime]

Wait what? There are really rumors, that he has removed some bones, so he has a weight advantage??? This is the first time I heard this one.. But somehow it wouldn't surprise me, if it were true. He probably would go to such extremes, to get the championship.

I call this bullshit. Thats made up by people who dont like Schumacher.

Even when he tweaked some stuff back then to take advantage in a race.... you cant call it cheating because it wasnt forbidden back then. Some time after Schumacher stuff got regulated more and more to the point that nothing was allowed anymore. Thanks to Schumacher the Formula 1 was a great and exciting sport to watch. Now we got Hamilton. Jeah he is good and he is fast.... thats all. Nothing special about the guy. Nothing that makes me exciting to watch him in a race.

Everybdoy does it in life everywhere, everytime... if something is not forbidden you take advantage of it. We are exploiting politics, exploiting laws, exploiting social help and other things for our own benefit. You cant go back ten years later and call all the people cheater because "now" its forbidden.

 

[notseqi]

I call this bullshit. Thats made up by people who dont like Schumacher.

Even if he did, they still had to redesign the airflow around his car to accommodate that bloody chin.

 

[Spaceman292]

Don't try to cover it up, it's out there now.
And all of a sudden F1 has become a little bit more interesting now that I am imagining they're trying to blow themselves while driving.

Ah shit I've been rumbled. Enzo Ferrari's zombie is gonna fuck me up.

 

[notseqi]

Ah shit I've been rumbled. Enzo Ferrari's zombie is gonna fuck me up.

They turned him into an Enzo with production number 069, did ya hear?

Beep beep, maddafackas!

 

[Tschumi]

They turned him into an Enzo with production number 069, did ya hear?

Beep beep, maddafackas!

so enzo ferrari is the god emperor of motorcarkind

sounds about right

 

[Hissing Sid]

.

 

[notseqi]

Raikkonen probably put it best.

My interest in this shit ‘sport’ waned long before Schumacher went off piste.

I did enjoy Mansell vs Senna and what came before but after that, meh.

Räikkönen is such a bloody legend. One of my many favourite moments is when he got fucked off the track in Monaco during the race and was seen on a mates ship in the harbour drinking vodka before the race ended.

 

[betrayal]

I can't say if Hamilton is better than Schumacher. But right now he has the best car. Like Schumacher back then.

 

[Jezbollah]

In F1 you cannot compare drivers to each other. Era and team wise there are too many variables.

In this comparison, I think the're both top tier. And with them I'd put the likes of Fangio, Jimmy Clark, Senna, Prost, and Vettel

 

[sobaka770]

If Fernando Alonso were to make the smart decisions about which team to join he'd beat Hamilton 90% of the time. He literally outperforms the machine he is given, kind of like Leclerc today.

Both Hamilton and Schumi are extremely talented and disciplined to repeat success year-on-year but nobody outperforms the machine and they rarely got challenged by their teammates.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Im good wit dis I don’t even think Hamilton hit his prime yet oof jealousy in this thread you guys want Hamilton to retire already lol

 

[Gp1]

And while Schumacher also benefited from the best car on the grid quite a lot, the discrepancy was NEVER as large as it has been between Mercedes and everybody else for the past six years.

And at the time there were some heavy discussion thats Ferrari was too dominant for the good of F1...

If Fernando Alonso were to make the smart decisions about which team to join he'd beat Hamilton 90% of the time.

Exactly, Alonso made some pretty bad decisions on his career. Imo he is as talented as these top drivers of all times

 

[The Incarnation]

Hamilton is a supremely talented driver, but he was also gifted with a car light years ahead of the competition with the change into the (fucking boring) turbo era.

And while Schumacher also benefited from the best car on the grid quite a lot, the discrepancy was NEVER as large as it has been between Mercedes and everybody else for the past six years.

Schumacher was better.


...oh, and the greatest F1 driver in history in terms of sheer driving talent was of course Ayrton Senna.

Not sure how you can say that, when Schumacher has won races from the back of the grid in a Ferrari

Im good wit dis I don’t even think Hamilton hit his prime yet oof jealousy in this thread you guys want Hamilton to retire already lol

That's how you tell he's best. People are practically manifesting every reason that their imaginations can think of, to deny the obvious. Try as they might, people can't overwrite reality with their own cognition.

 

[Mohonky]

If Fernando Alonso were to make the smart decisions about which team to join he'd beat Hamilton 90% of the time. He literally outperforms the machine he is given, kind of like Leclerc today.

Both Hamilton and Schumi are extremely talented and disciplined to repeat success year-on-year but nobody outperforms the machine and they rarely got challenged by their teammates.

Alonso literally had exactly the same machine as Hamilton in 2007 and he certainly didnt best him '90% of the time'. And that was an era where Alonso had just come off the back of beating Schumi 2 x to the WDC and Hamilton was in his rookie year.

Its amazing to me so many people forget that.

I think it is Marc Priestley (?) a former McLaren mechanic who was there in 2007. He said he was impressed because the day Hamilton first appeared in the garage, he wanted to know everything, how everything worked, what everything did, how things could be improved. He was like that the day he started.

It was also interesting because of the whole 'McLaren favoured Hamilton' debate as Marc Priestly stated, the mechanics were arguing over whose side of the garage they were going to be on, and Hamiltons side wasnt the side they were all fighting to get on.

 

[notseqi]

Not sure how you can say that, when Schumacher has won races from the back of the grid in a Ferrari

Ayrton is up there, probably uppest. But fuck me wasn't it a joy to watch Schumacher in the rain. Playing those droops like a fiddle.

 

[StonedRider]

If Fernando Alonso were to make the smart decisions about which team to join he'd beat Hamilton 90% of the time. He literally outperforms the machine he is given, kind of like Leclerc today.

Both Hamilton and Schumi are extremely talented and disciplined to repeat success year-on-year but nobody outperforms the machine and they rarely got challenged by their teammates.

Alonso is good, but Hamilton has beat him as a rookie.
Hamilton outperformed his car in McLaren a lot during Red Bull domination years. He simply doesn't need it now, he can win without much effort.

 

[Gp1]

Alonso literally had exactly the same machine as Hamilton in 2007 and he certainly didnt best him '90% of the time

Alonso and McLaren relation by the mid-end of 2007 season were toxic to say at best. It was 2 teams inside McLaren and they heavily favored Hamilton. Both McLaren and Ron Dennis really wanted their protege (UK Drive that McLaren created from 0 in a UK team) to be WDC as soon as possible. And that after hiring Alonso, a 2x and current WDC for a hefty sum...

Of course, this cost McLaren both the WDC and WCC

 

[Dommel]

Hamilton is good but not better than Schumacher unless he wins a championship with another team.

 

[GHG]

Hamilton is good but not better than Schumacher unless he wins a championship with another team.

How many teams did Schumacher win the championship with?

 

[notseqi]

Hamilton is good but not better than Schumacher unless he wins a championship with another team.

Good point!
I'll add: I think the time of drivers one could look up to coming from F1 are over.

I'll never forget the 2011 Le Mans, two Audi DNF due to crazy crashes, Allan McNish at ~140mph shot off by a Ferrari, Mike Rockenfeller at ~200mph shot off by... you guessed it, another Ferrari.
Competition in the three Peugeots was strong and he had to overtake one of them that wasn't on the same lap as the last Audi in #2 and the leading Peugeot.
And did he fucking ever:

How many teams did Schumacher win the championship with?

Benetton 2x
Ferrari 5x

 

[GHG]

Benetton 2x
Ferrari 5x

So 2 different teams. Why does Hamilton need to win with 3 different teams to be considered alongside Schumacher?

It feels like people overlook the fact that the same things that are said of Hamilton now were said of Schumacher when he was enjoying his period of dominance with Ferrari. Even if your equipment is the best, it's difficult to keep churning out consistent results on different tracks and in varying conditions across a season, nevermind across multiple seasons in a row. It takes talent, discipline and mental strength. Not every driver is cut out for it and that's why the top teams pick the guys with the right attributes to give them the opportunity to achieve greatness. Just listen to the post race interviews of Hamilton and Bottas after the Portugal race and its clear to see where they are miles apart, nevermind the 25s time gap.

Come rain or shine, new track or old track, qualifying or race, pressure or no pressure Hamilton finds a way to perform and often put his team mate to shame. The only current driver that comes close is Verstappen but even he is still prone to moment's of immaturity, he will get even better with time.

As always with these things I think that it's only on reflection after the dust has settled more people will start to realise how good he's needed to be over the years to do what he has.

People can talk all they want but his record speaks for itself and always will.

 

[notseqi]

People can talk all they want but his record speaks for itself and always will.

It will but it will also be viewed as a different era of racing.

 

[FunkMiller]

Hamilton is good but not better than Schumacher unless he wins a championship with another team.

Well, he did win it in the Mclaren...

 

[FunkMiller]

Ayrton is up there, probably uppest. But fuck me wasn't it a joy to watch Schumacher in the rain. Playing those droops like a fiddle.

I was at Donington in 1993. It was fucking spine chilling for a young teenage boy at only his second GP, watching Ayrton work some kind of sorcery in that rain.

 

[notseqi]

I was at Donington in 1993. It was fucking spine chilling watching Ayrton for a teenage boy at his first GP.

Been there and Brands Hatch a few times, around the same time. Dad and his friends raced motorcycles and were F1 fans. Got nice pictures from back in the day, one where I'm next to Nigel Mansell.

 

[FunkMiller]

Been there and Brands Hatch a few times, around the same time. Dad and his friends raced motorcycles and were F1 fans. Got nice pictures from back in the day, one where I'm next to Nigel Mansell.

It was actually my second GP. I completely forgot watching Nige win at Silverstone in 92. *facepalm*

I feel privileged to have been going to British GPs at that time. Also saw Damon win in 94.

The last GP I ever went to was Britain in 2014. The hybrid era is just the worst.

 

[JimiNutz]

Not sure if this was posted yet but more wood for the Schumi fire:

85% success against his team mates vs Hams 68%

 

[Airbus Jr]

Schumacher have to fight fierce driver during his days

From Ayrton Senna, Damon Hill, David Couthard, Jacq Vilenouve, HH Frenzten, Mika Hakinen, Juan Pablo Montoya, Kimi Raikonen and Fernando Alonso

The only year his car really dominate was only in 02 and 04

Hamilton on the other hand only have strong competition from Rosberg in 2016 and Vettel in 2018

The rest is way too easy for him

The only driver that can chalenge him is the one riding the other mercedes car and his current teammate Valteri Bottas is crap

Mercedes car is so way ahead from the rest of the grid, when you can see Hamilton nearly overlapped a driver in P4 you know the competition is fucked

Rather watch MotoGP or F2 these days way more exciting then the boring F1