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[cormack12]

Source: https://amp.theguardian.com/games/2...-point-in-making-more-powerful-games-consoles
(More at link....)

This surprised me because it seems very obvious, but it’s still not often said by games industry executives, who rely on the enticing promise of technological advancement to drum up investment and hype. If we’re now freely admitting that we’ve gone as far we sensibly can with console power, that does represent a major step-change in how the games industry does business.

I also found Layden’s statements quite validating, because I simply do not care about tech specs. I am the least technically minded games journalist I know, and have often felt as if I was in the minority. I would struggle to reliably tell the difference between 50fps and 60fps, or between 4k and 8k resolution, or to explain what ray tracing actually is. To me, games started looking pretty great about 15 years ago and most of the improvement I’ve seen since then has felt incremental.

Technical specifications used to matter immensely to gamers. I vividly remember playground arguments over which was more powerful between the SNES and the Mega Drive, and internet forum arguments over whether the PlayStation 3 had an edge over the Xbox 360. For me, the end of this era began when Nintendo released the Wii, a relatively underpowered console that sold 100m, beat all of its rivals in sales and proved there are millions of players out there who just want to have fun at a reasonable price.

If it’s coming at the cost of studios’ ability to operate sustainably – and therefore at the cost of developers’ livelihoods – is continually escalating visual fidelity actually worth it? Is it time to leave that fight behind?

 

[Digital-Aftertaste]

 

[March Climber]

Technical specifications used to matter immensely to gamers. I vividly remember playground arguments over which was more powerful between the SNES and the Mega Drive, and internet forum arguments over whether the PlayStation 3 had an edge over the Xbox 360. For me, the end of this era began when Nintendo released the Wii, a relatively underpowered console that sold 100m, beat all of its rivals in sales and proved there are millions of players out there who just want to have fun at a reasonable price.

A lot of critical details have been hand-waived and skipped over in this part.

 

[duck_sauce]

As long as there are games not running at 60 fps there is absolutly aa point in making stronger consoles.

 

[FUBARx89]

Keza McDonald wrote that. Ex Kotaku UK editor.

And she can't tell the difference between 50 and 60fps or what ray tracing is. Not sure she's in the correct line of work really.

 

[hemo memo]

As long as there are games not running at 60 fps there is absolutly aa point in making stronger consoles.

Not running at 60fps is a dev choice, not system limitation.

 

[Gaiff]

My only problem is that games haven’t evolved since the early days of the PS360 era.

 

[ap_puff]

 

[mansoor1980]

stick to gameboy specs keza

 

[duck_sauce]

Not running at 60fps is a dev choice, not system limitation.

Yes it is the choice of running a visual heavy game on an underpowered console.

 

[DenchDeckard]

What i would genuinely love to see. People can call me crazy i don't care. I would love a reset where consoles go back to delivering a solid 60fps experience as the baseline. Duck everything else. Get the framerste and performance locked at 60fps. Close to what Nintendo do and then push the graphics until you reach peak efficiency and graphics for a smooth experience.

Then make natural advancements with that ad the baseline.

Ive played too many games that look like they are struggling to even run and need multiple patches before being able to thoroughly enjoy them.

Sonys first party has actually been great in this regard. Maybe that is due to a few cross gen ports this gen but I think they need some respect for delivering more smooth 60fps experiences than third parties and xbox on console.

So I think Sony and nintendo are almost there.

PC can then be used as the platform to introduce new techniques etc as the end user can manually adjust their settings to get the experience they want.

Then once consoles can run games with this tech at a solid 60fps as close to bug free an experience introduce it to consoles.

I'm no designer and this could be complete pie in the sky dreaming but I think it makes sense lol

 

[ap_puff]

stick to gameboy specs keza

uncanny

 

[March Climber]

My only problem is that games haven’t evolved since the early days of the PS360 era.

To give context this post for the tons of people about to quote this, Gaiff is talking about gameplay systems, world/levelution, physics, destruction, and NPC AI…not the graphics.

A good response would be to show him modern games that have evolved in one of those categories, for example Teardown as an example to destruction.

 

[Edmund]

Of course all these articles come out as soon as the ps5 pro was revealed.

 

[TrueLegend]

They made Uncharted and Last of Us Part II and God of War on PS4. Can't say anything like that for any game on PS5, maybe Ratchet and Clank but even that doesn't say this is PS5 look at it. That's the problem with PS5. On Xbox I can say Hellblade 2 kind of delivers on that visual promise but well the game is not a mass appealing one. So Ratchet and Clank, Hellblade 2, A Plague Tales Requiem and Horizon Forbidden West. That's it, On PC you got Control, Alan Wake II, RDR2, Cyberpunk and Black Myth Wukong and that's it. So it's not graphics that is being pushed anywhere, it's all very incremental in most cases. It's the engines that affect, most engines don't engage in physics and less interactivity and more photorealism doesn't make the gameplay immersive. Control and Returnal demonstrates it well. Physics and Animations make a game next gen in gameplay, assets can only make it look good not immersive.

 

[Hyet]

I kinda agree, the diminishing returns this gen have been off the charts this Gen and with more platforms and more complicated components, more complex features like raytracing optimization is extremely poor. I think we should slow down upgrades and let devs take the time they need for good and well performing games. There are more devs than ever so a shortage of games isn't in the horizon even if they did this.

 

[Dr.Morris79]

It's the Guardian

I wouldn't even trust the date on that rag.

 

[Dorfdad]

As long as there are games not running at 60 fps there is absolutly aa point in making stronger consoles.

Every game in existence can be 60fps. Developers prioritize graphics and other features over fps. It was and always will be this way. Even next gen developers will opt for 30fps and push the graphics and attracting envelopes

 

[Robb]

If we’re now admitting that we’ve gone as far we sensibly can with console power

Haven’t even seen a game reach the Matrix UE5 demo yet, and feels like we won’t until next gen.

 

[Calverz]

I still remember reading a myamoto interview around 2005 I think where he said graphical advancements had plateaued with the gamecube so they chose to find a new way of playing which was the revolution.

I sometimes still think about this. I mean if you look at gamecube games like Metroid prime etc, you can sort of understand what he meant.

But at the same time look at twilight princess on gamecube compared to say Elden ring. There is a huge jump there. I think in the past graphics was the number one driver to fuel new consoles. In the 90’s and early 2000’s. But this is no longer the case. It seems what drives them now is content and performance gains. Although the rise of handhelds goes against this.

 

[Majukun]

not really
especially since every gen we see diminishing returns for a really high increase of development costs

i'm sure we can find an handful of mechanics or gameplay elements that were not possible on previous gens just with less image quality or whatever, but not THAT many

 

[Skifi28]

More powerful consoles are a mistake. A ps1 is all the power you need.

 

[The Cockatrice]

My only problem is that games haven’t evolved since the early days of the PS360 era.

To give context this post for the tons of people about to quote this, Gaiff is talking about gameplay systems, world/levelution, physics, destruction, and NPC AI…not the graphics.

A good response would be to show him modern games that have evolved in one of those categories, for example Teardown as an example to destruction.

Even visually, the diminishing returns, raytrace included are incredibly small. Like imagine living in an age where you go from GTA2 to GTA3. How insane that was? Nowadays every game looks visually the same more or less depending on the artistic choice, indies excluded mostly. The gap is getting even smaller now that most studios are switching to UE5. Everything looks samey, lighting, assets, etc. Its all safe and boring. Enemy AI hasnt evolved since FEAR/Rage like at all, physics only a few games managed to push that to the limit but gamers became so stupid that no one cares about that anymore. Say what you want about Borderlands 2 but I havent seen a modern game do particle effects like it did thanks to nvidia physx. You'd think that would evolve into something crazier but it devolved(if thats a words). Architecture is more important to me and thats why I consider Cyberpunk the visual king, because outside of its pathtracing, the game has an insane level design that only maybe GTA6 can match.

 

[dragonyeuw]

My only problem is that games haven’t evolved since the early days of the PS360 era.

I would argue since the PS2/Xbox era. I was thinking about this recently; from Gen 1 to 4, we went from simple images to great pixel art games. Gen 5 was the paradigm shift to 3D, wonky camera, low texture polygons and all. From Gen 6 though...the basic tenants of 3d game design, controls, and camera were perfected and have barely evolved since. We've added HD, ray tracing, larger worlds, etc but the feeling of the games is largely the same.

While gaming compared to movies and music is still a relatively new medium, we are at a convergence point of tech, budget, manpower, and time which has led to this general feeling of diminishing returns. The industry frankly has gotten too big and the cost of games and needed ROI has resulted in less risk averse projects.

 

[dragonyeuw]

I still remember reading a myamoto interview around 2005 I think where he said graphical advancements had plateaued with the gamecube so they chose to find a new way of playing which was the revolution.

I sometimes still think about this. I mean if you look at gamecube games like Metroid prime etc, you can sort of understand what he meant.

But at the same time look at twilight princess on gamecube compared to say Elden ring. There is a huge jump there. I think in the past graphics was the number one driver to fuel new consoles. In the 90’s and early 2000’s. But this is no longer the case. It seems what drives them now is content and performance gains. Although the rise of handhelds goes against this.

I think Nintendo has made a strong case that artstyle is king. Look at something like Metroid Prime Remastered. That was a 20 year old where the assets were redone but otherwise retained the same visual language as the original, and easily could have passed as a newly created game. Ditto for the Windwaker HD Wii U port, artstyles when done right are far more enduring than trying to go for the highest visual fidelity and realism.

 

[March Climber]

Even visually, the diminishing returns, raytrace included are incredibly small. Like imagine living in an age where you go from GTA2 to GTA3. How insane that was? Nowadays every game looks visually the same more or less depending on the artistic choice, indies excluded mostly. The gap is getting even smaller now that most studios are switching to UE5. Everything looks samey, lighting, assets, etc. Its all safe and boring. Enemy AI hasnt evolved since FEAR/Rage like at all, physics only a few games managed to push that to the limit but gamers became so stupid that no one cares about that anymore. Say what you want about Borderlands 2 but I havent seen a modern game do particle effects like it did thanks to nvidia physx. You'd think that would evolve into something crazier but it devolved(if thats a words). Architecture is more important to me and thats why I consider Cyberpunk the visual king, because outside of its pathtracing, the game has an insane level design that only maybe GTA6 can match.

The problem is that the things you’re listing out aren’t all running on the same train tracks at the same time, but people here are treating them like they are.

I have said before that I consider this generation a Supercharged-version of last generation. It’s a half-step, growing pains generation. A necessary sacrifice that people will have to whine and complain through so that we can get all of these radical graphical changes (like path tracing/ray tracing and the physics that interact with it all) in 4k at a stable 60 framerate, next generation.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

I think a lot of things are being missed when talking about modern gaming.

• Gaming before the PS360 era was maxed to 480p. The advent of HDTVs changed everything. Games have been keeping up with not only the demand for higher resolution but the demand for higher framerate ever since. For the longest time 720p30 and 1080p30 were the standards.
• Rather than make significant improvements in specific gameplay, we've been stuck paying for attempts to get to 4K60.
• With the advent of Machine Learning AI Upscaling, this fight is largely over and native resolution is no longer as important and its importance will wane in the coming decade.
• With this a lot of memory and processing can be focused on interactivity and NPC AI which will transform gaming in the future
• So yes, more powerful gaming devices are still crucial, just not in the way people are thinking of
  • More memory
  • More CPU compute
  • More machine learning nodes
• VR will become a bigger aspect of gaming, especially combined with AR

Gaming will reach a point where everyone has fairly unique experiences with games because of the randomness of AI generated content that is responsive to your unique input.

Sub 480p gaming had 27 years under its belt. 4K console gaming has had 8 years... I think ultimately, we're doing pretty well. Super Mario Bros came out 8 years after the Atari 2600 launched. We're getting GTA6 pretty much 8 years after the launch of the first 4K consoles.

 

[Gaiff]

To give context this post for the tons of people about to quote this, Gaiff is talking about gameplay systems, world/levelution, physics, destruction, and NPC AI…not the graphics.

A good response would be to show him modern games that have evolved in one of those categories, for example Teardown as an example to destruction.

I’m aware of Teardown. One of the few games that uses an advanced physics system for gameplay purposes. Most games don’t come anywhere near Red Faction Guerilla, but I suppose destruction is something you either commit to or not.

 

[GymWolf]

Yes we need powerful consoles, next question?!

 

[Ozzie666]

Just becaue a console is more powerful, doesn't mean developers have to use it or for go solid art direction. There is no gun to anyones head to achieve photo realism at the cost of going out of business. Even the 60 frames angle is for the gaming elite and not the average consumer, who really doesn't give a shit. If your talking CPU more power, ram and some better physics, to avoid slow down and lag, sure why not.

Developers need to work smarter not harder and that might come with better tools, who knows. This is where it seems Japan and other Asian developers seem to understand things and are leading the charge.

 

[Fortuneelsewhere]

Yeah I wonder myself if there is any point in building better cars and better TVs and better systems, better phones and PCs and better infrastructures in the world.. I ask myself all the time if evolution should be a thing.. we should still be living in caves and hunting deers in the woods..

 

[Little Chicken]

Haven't really seen a compelling reason for it since Xbox Series X.

 

[Xtib81]

The day we have visuals in all our games that match the latest Unity or UE5 demos running at 4k+ and 60fps, with full path tracing and all the whistles, I MIGHT agree. Until then, more power is desperately needed.

 

[Hohenheim]

Keza McDonald wrote that. Ex Kotaku UK editor.

And she can't tell the difference between 50 and 60fps or what ray tracing is. Not sure she's in the correct line of work really.

This.
Just because this "journalist" can't see and understand various tech, doesn't mean everyone should be happy with all aspects of the current state of things.
And yeah, the "journalist" should definitly look for a job where she understand the basics.

 

[Judge Magister]

 

[Hero of Spielberg]

Obviously consoles should always take advantage of more powerful technology. That being said I think console manufacturers will make more use of AI to achieve greater leaps in performance to combat diminishing returns and reduce hardware costs in doing so.

 

[vkbest]

As long as there are games not running at 60 fps there is absolutly aa point in making stronger consoles.

Lazy developers who don't bother in optimize their games surely approve your statement

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Not sure she's in the correct line of work really.

It seems like she is just perfect for where she is.

Also - same article about iPhones when?

 

[Judge Magister]

First time seeing that. WTF.

 

[yazenov]

This is a dumb article. More options for consumers who want to play games at higher frame rates and visual fidelity are good. It's an optional upgrade.

Ex Kotaku staff

 

[mdkirby]

Yes, because we need powerful ai in these boxes, so ai can pick up a lot of the heavy lifting in visuals, thus allowing developers to get their runaway budgets under control.

 

[Lucifers Beard]

Not the most technically minded person? Then shut the fuck up about this stuff. Devices must be more powerful if we want to see not only graphical benefits but also more complex A.I or interesting game systems and mechanics. It's not all about 60fps.

 

[Randall365]

This guys such a stupid dickhead.

"Tech specs used to matter immensely to gamers!!!! Nobody cares anymore."

These days, everyone talks about resolutions and frame rates - I don't remember anyone giving a shit about that in the early nineties. He is just plain wrong - so a good fit at the Guardian.

 

[Radical_3d]

My only problem is that games haven’t evolved since the early days of the PS360 era.

Oh, but they have devolve wonderfully.

 

[kazuyamishima]

This article was brought to you by Nintendo.

 

[SplunkyMunkey]

This stone age u probably wouldn't strong hardware take a look at ps5 pro and pssr despite the low res ps5 pro would able to use very high/ultra setting and help by the pssr to achieve 4k at 60fps

 

[DirtyBast8rd]

stick to gameboy specs keza

She?

 

[kyussman]

How are they going to bullshit people with their technical specs that never have any meaningful applications if they don't continue to push forward,lol(I thought instant loading was going to fundamentally change how games could be designed this gen).If they don't have bullshit tech specs to brag about they will need to actually have some compelling software out with the launch of their new consoles and that would surely be too much to ask.

 

[winjer]

Modern gaming journalists are so freaking stupid.

 

[Boss Mog]

I guess everything The Guardian publishes is complete garbage.