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[Jaybe]

They would prefer more politics in games rather than more TFLOPS.

 

[MonkD]

They say this every generation.

 

[DeepEnigma]

They would prefer more politics in games rather than more TFLOPS.

 

[Trogdor1123]

I guess it depends. As things are now, i can see the need for more power for sure but there are definitely Deminishing returns.

Personally, id like the them to focus more on reducing the foot print and power usage than on increasing power.

 

[chokotoureiki]

So every generation has to be "mind-blowingly OMG I can't believe my eyes" impressive? It reminds me of some women that want a man who's 6 ft tall, makes 6 figures, has a 6 inch dick. Pretty unrealistic if you ask me, not to mention ridiculously high standards.

If every gen did have a massive jump in graphics every single time, then that's just gonna jack up the costs of hardware and software to a significant margin, and then next you're gonna complain that games are too expensive.

As for artstyle, that's hugely subjective. Like, I find a lot of Nintendo games graphics way too....colorfully oversaturated. The color palette is way too rich, like eating too much sugar for your eyes rich. And no, they should NOT be the standard when it comes to how games are supposed to look. GTFO not everyone is going to like that happy happy rainbow colorfully aww so pretty artstyle. I certainly don't.

 

[PurePlatinum]

The symptom is the same but the actual issue is different than what's being described. The real problem isn't that game graphics cannot get better, it's that there's only a few teams with the talent/budget to push these consoles to their actual maximum.

Every generation there are fewer and fewer games that could not run on the previous gen...because there's only a handful of studios pushing things that hard.

If you need confirmation, look at how Sony markets the PS5. "Better graphics" are a small footnote and they choose to emphasize things like load times, haptics, 3D Audio...etc. They know that screenshots just aren't going to do it anymore because nobody can tell the difference unless they watch a Digital Foundry video for nerds.

 

[SweetTooth]

Console makers needs to stretch the generation longer to 10 years (with Pro in the middle) to be able to see "Perceived" progress with new gens. It will also reduce strain on dev cycles and give a breather to gamers

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

Just do something twice-ish as powerful as Series X, but with a 4TB SSD. And that’d be good enough for me literally forever.

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

Console makers needs to stretch the generation longer to 10 years (with Pro in the middle) to be able to see "Perceived" progress with new gens. It will also reduce strain on dev cycles and give a breather to gamers

This will happen anyway, because software development cycles have gotten so long. Even Nintendo takes 6 years to make a 3D Zelda now. Crazy.

 

[cireza]

With how technically complex games are now surely this will just drive costs up further?

I don't think so. When you stack a billion tools that are supposed to help, you eventually reach a point where it actually doesn't help you that much anymore. For example, Havoc. It was used as a physics engine in a ton of games... including all the Souls games from the PS360. At what exactly was this of any use ? I will tell you : it was utterly useless. You never need such a physics engine in these games. You character not falling through the ground and basic collision with the scenery are enough. We have been doing this since the very first days of 3D. And collision, like, forever. Yet, it was there, and who knows how much it was responsible for the framerates of these games. Someone will tell me "No Havoc was fine". Ok sure, but what about the other ten engines stacked on top of it ? Havoc was even used in Sonic 06 : why ? We never needed this. Just put the right tool for the right need, and stop putting by default a billion useless middlewares. Thankfully SEGA developed the Hedgehog Engine, and it has been brilliant ever since. The games just look excellent and are butter smooth these days.

Looking at Switch right now, we have a number of games from PS360 era that perform not better, and even worse on the console. Resources are being wasted on engines that help build things. How does a game like Sonic Colors ends up riddled with bugs and retains the 30fps limit of the Wii game on a Switch ? Something HAS to be wrong here. Sonic Colors was a Wii exclusive, build and optimized for it. Recent Sonic Colors re-release was built on whatever multiplatform engine, and ends performing worse on Switch than on Wii. The only thing that can make the next Switch relevant is going back to actually exclusive, optimized efforts. Otherwise, I think that on multiplatform efforts, there won't be any gain at all.

Xenoblade Chronicles X comes to mind as a great example of this : the developers threw away any kind of advanced collision detection and physics engine. In this game, you simply can't fall through the ground and can't walk in the scenery. Otherwise, you go through absolutely everything. And your attacks are click based. This is World of Warcraft level of physics, so super simple. And thanks to this, they saved a ton of resources which helped build the absolutely stunning, large scale landscapes. Metroid Prime Remastered is another example of picking your tools and middleware according to your needs, which ends up the best looking and performing game of the console.

 

[mckmas8808]

A lot of critical details have been hand-waived and skipped over in this part.

Yeah, that part of the article totally lost me! Just because the Wii sold 100m, didn't mean gamers stop caring about graphics and tech specs in 2010.

 

[SJRB]

Yes.

Next question.

 

[Represent.]

What a stupid fucking article, and I didn’t even read it

 

[MadchesterManc]

It surprises me people take The Guardian serious enough to have a forum discussion over something they publish

 

[VitoNotVito]

Ad hominem/Keza's looks attacks were unavoidable. GAF is really full of incels.

 

[chokotoureiki]

Yeah, that part of the article totally lost me! Just because the Wii sold 100m, didn't mean gamers stop caring about graphics and tech specs in 2010.

Yep. I feel like a lot of the "Wii or Switch graphics are good enough" mentality stem from insecurity, like deep down they secretly wish Nintendo would make more of an effort to boost the graphics power of their consoles and so they try to make themselves feel better by saying things like, "art style is more important" to compensate for the lack thereof. If Nintendo made a 4k Switch with ray tracing I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that they'd be all over that like white on rice.

 

[TGO]

The problem with the "make everything 60fps" crew is that is doesn't stop there.
60fps will be called a slide show and demand for 120fps will become the norm.
I just want one thing, stable frame rates.
That's it.

 

[Minsc]

Yep. I feel like a lot of the "Wii or Switch graphics are good enough" mentality stem from insecurity, like deep down they secretly wish Nintendo would make more of an effort to boost the graphics power of their consoles and so they try to make themselves feel better by saying things like, "art style is more important" to compensate for the lack thereof. If Nintendo made a 4k Switch with ray tracing I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that they'd be all over that like white on rice.

How much graphics do you need to run Picross? That's mainly what I use my Switch for these days.

 

[Puscifer]

stick to gameboy specs keza

That's either an ugly effeminate male or an ugly butch woman. I honestly can't tell.

 

[Ebrietas]

With how technically complex games are now surely this will just drive costs up further?

Perhaps they don't need to be so "technically complex"? Are the games with bleeding edge visuals/animations and movie style cutscenes actually the best selling or most popular?

 

[Dorfdad]

Even visually, the diminishing returns, raytrace included are incredibly small. Like imagine living in an age where you go from GTA2 to GTA3. How insane that was? Nowadays every game looks visually the same more or less depending on the artistic choice, indies excluded mostly. The gap is getting even smaller now that most studios are switching to UE5. Everything looks samey, lighting, assets, etc. Its all safe and boring. Enemy AI hasnt evolved since FEAR/Rage like at all, physics only a few games managed to push that to the limit but gamers became so stupid that no one cares about that anymore. Say what you want about Borderlands 2 but I havent seen a modern game do particle effects like it did thanks to nvidia physx. You'd think that would evolve into something crazier but it devolved(if thats a words). Architecture is more important to me and thats why I consider Cyberpunk the visual king, because outside of its pathtracing, the game has an insane level design that only maybe GTA6 can match.

I would think this comes down to marketing driving all this. FPS don’t sell, AI doesn’t sell, graphics are the only “tangable” marketing aspect these people care about.

 

[arkhamguy123]

As long as there are games that don’t look like cgi movies there is absolutly aa point in making stronger consoles.

I fixed it for you don’t worry

 

[mitch1971]

Is there even any point in pushing boundries and innovating?

Dumb idiot.

 

[chokotoureiki]

Perhaps they don't need to be so "technically complex"? Are the games with bleeding edge visuals/animations and movie style cutscenes actually the best selling or most popular?

They do leave the most lasting impressions, heck even affect people's lives in a profound way that up until recently, only movies and music were only capable of.

I don't think I can ever recall a time in my life where I've played a Mario game and was like, "omg stomping on that goomba really changed my life in such a way that made me contemplate about life and the universe". I get that gameplay matters, but engaging one's emotions through realism can also be fun, and in many ways transcend it.

 

[Wildebeest]

People didn't always choose the platforms with the best graphics even when it was very obvious. For example if they did the whole PS2 era of consoles would have been a total crash for the console gaming industry as people jumped to PC on mass. But it wasn't like that. It was a solid growth period for console gaming, despite flagships like GTA3 being potentially much better experiences on PC. Now, forget small fry like Nintendo, mobile is eating everything despite the games being total trash in every way imaginable.

 

[Wooxsvan]

YES theres a point. If Sony had released the Pro earlier i wouldnt have purchased a new PC and now am buying most games on there. I want performance. Base Ps5 was great for the first couple years but needed pro in 3rd year IMO

 

[mckmas8808]

I would think this comes down to marketing driving all this. FPS don’t sell, AI doesn’t sell, graphics are the only “tangable” marketing aspect these people care about.

What sells the most are good games! Point blank period. If a stable framerate or AI upscaler helps to make the game better, then that's great!

 

[Mahavastu]

Inflation exists even outside the post covid bullshit and price creep is and always will be inevitable. In the 90s you could get a brand new freshly released console for $200-250, in the 00s it creeped up to $300-400. This idea that a product can never pass a given price point is a recipe for producing somehow even more mediocre hardware. Might as well get used to the idea now because it's happening.

Here in Europe the PS5 Pro is 800€, double of the launch price of the digital PS5.
Inflation is fine, but doubling the price from one generation to the next would be something large parts of the markets would not support. And Playstation needs to sell large volumes to keep its position in the market.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

It doesn't really matter anymore since the days of traditional consoles are coming to an end, so it doesn't matter if Sony puts the console market to a price that's above a lot of former console players. Pretty soon everything will be cloud based. This is the last hurrah.

 

[chokotoureiki]

The problem with the "make everything 60fps" crew is that is doesn't stop there.
60fps will be called a slide show and demand for 120fps will become the norm.
I just want one thing, stable frame rates.
That's it.

60 fps would make sense if it's highly action oriented or in the case with genres like fighters or racers. Otherwise, it wouldn't make much sense if it was applied to games that are striving for that cinematic feel, esp given that most films are shot under 30 fps.

 

[Sethbacca]

Here in Europe the PS5 Pro is 800€, double of the launch price of the digital PS5.
Inflation is fine, but doubling the price from one generation to the next would be something large parts of the markets would not support. And Playstation needs to sell large volumes to keep its position in the market.

I understand what you're saying, but the Pro isn't a next gen console. It's a premium console for the people who are also willing to spend $200 on premium controllers and nicer gear in the current gen. I suspect PS6 will drop at 600 without disc drive after the sticker shock that everyone had from the PS5 Pro announcement though, that way they can pull a "Look, we heard you on pricing" type thing. Time will tell, but chips are only getting more expensive to make right now and fabs are absolutely maxed out with production. Gamers are going to either need to accept the Nintendo route of less powerful hardware, or accept that modern hardware costs money. If the rumors of MS hybrid strategy are true that shit is going to be $$$$$$.

 

[March Climber]

60 fps would make sense if it's highly action oriented or in the case with genres like fighters or racers. Otherwise, it wouldn't make much sense if it was applied to games that are striving for that cinematic feel, esp given that most films are shot under 30 fps.

The film argument doesn't quite work for games. Even when you compare an anime game attempting to emulate anime, it just ends up looking (and feeling) choppy trying to match the frames of animation from an actual anime. In games sometimes that effect can even cause motion sickness.

I don't want to type paragraphs and paragraphs as to why, but it's worth looking up the differences and why they exist. It's part of the reason why '30fps games are more cinematic' argument started dying once the pro consoles came out last gen, and even moreso this gen when performance mode became a standard and is being selected 3/4 times more often than fidelity, according to Sony themselves:



Considering the impact of this data, I'm hopeful that we will eventually reach a generation where we will all finally put this behind us as everyone strives towards 60fps as a standard.

 

[Crayon]

It helps games with smaller budgets get better looking games out. Derp derp, just "optimize" them. No, stfu. A aa game can look a lot better with more horsepower because they don't have the resources to spend squeezing blood from a stone. Look at the mighty ue5 engine. The lumen system is amazing but try cranking up that setting on your pc. My gpu is around 50% more than a ps5 and the higher lumen settings are usable but really take a toll. That's not going to work out too great on a ps5 and smaller developers can't sit there all day touching up light and shadow in every corner to make up for it like a $100,000,000 game can.

 

[chokotoureiki]

The film argument doesn't quite work for games. Even when you compare an anime game attempting to emulate anime, it just ends up looking (and feeling) choppy trying to match the frames of animation from an actual anime. In games sometimes that effect can even cause motion sickness.

I don't want to type paragraphs and paragraphs as to why, but it's worth looking up the differences and why they exist. It's part of the reason why '30fps games are more cinematic' argument started dying once the pro consoles came out last gen, and even moreso this gen when performance mode became a standard and is being selected 3/4 times more often than fidelity, according to Sony themselves:



Considering the impact of this data, I'm hopeful that we will eventually reach a generation where we will all finally put this behind us as everyone strives towards 60fps as a standard.

Yeah I stand corrected.

 

[TGO]

The film argument doesn't quite work for games. Even when you compare an anime game attempting to emulate anime, it just ends up looking (and feeling) choppy trying to match the frames of animation from an actual anime. In games sometimes that effect can even cause motion sickness.

That's because there is a lot of stuff missing that makes it smooth in a film transfer vs game, and ironically most people turn it off in games and games that do have it don't do it well.
But there are games that do it really well.
I will say that frame rate on PC is the real problem why you here people complain as it's not the same as on consoles.
60fps is a must because anything below 60fps is choppy when playing most games on PC, especially if you don't know how to fix it.

 

[March Climber]

But there are games that do it really well.
I will say that frame rate on PC is the real problem why you here people complain as it's not the same as on consoles.

This used to be the case during the period of Xbox to Xbox360 to Xbox One generations, but whatever methods devs used to do to make 30fps feel as smooth as possible, most of them suddenly stopped doing it this generation (partially due to the introduction of pro consoles and performance mode), and that added to the influx of console gamers like myself suddenly complaining about 30fps feeling and looking really bad.

A quick example of smooth 30fps I can bring up: Gears of War 3 felt smooth to play on Xbox 360 and it was only 30fps. Same goes for Uncharted 2 and 3 on PS3. Games aren't built around it as much anymore.

That's why I think we are inevitably heading to a 60fps standard on consoles and there are different ways we can get there, but it just depends on who figures out what first.

Sony definitely made the first move big move with the Pro and what's inside of it.

 

[midnightAI]

We've seen how games run on UE5, yes, we need more power.

 

[tkscz]

To gamers who go onto gaming forums and twitter and Reddit?

Yes, more powerful hardware matters.

To everyone else who casually games or games as a hobby to relax and entertain themselves?

No, they don't really care and would be happy playing a downgraded version of a game on their phone.

 

[Zacfoldor]

Damn, what a stupid take.

 

[CGNoire]

Say Goodbye to Physics then.

 

[chokotoureiki]

The problem with the "Wii/Switch graphics is good enough, art style matters more than visual fidelity " argument is if you're of the PCMR persuasion that is also pro Nintendo, you would also have to argue against the advancement of PC graphics as well, which is self contradicting and disingenuous. If Nintendo made the Switch 2 with graphics comparable or better than PS4, then you'll just move the goalpost again and again, bc hey! Only Nintendo holds the answer to what good graphics should be like. Everyone else is wrong.

Furthermore, it's not like every game that's focused on graphics is aiming towards realism. Look at games like Journey, or Shadow of the Colossus. Games that wouldn't be possible on older hardware and even if you were to reduce the games down to its basic gameplay components, it wouldn't feel the same. The visual presentation can also have a strong impact on how entertaining a game can be.

 

[March Climber]

The problem with the "Wii/Switch graphics is good enough, art style matters more than visual fidelity " argument is if you're of the PCMR persuasion that is also pro Nintendo, you would also argue against the advancement of PC graphics as well, which is self contradicting and disingenuous.

Furthermore, it's not like every game that's focused on graphics is aiming towards realism. Look at games like Journey, or Shadow of the Colossus. Games that wouldn't be possible on older hardware and even if you were to reduce the games down to its basic gameplay components, it wouldn't feel the same. The visual presentation can also have a strong impact on how entertaining a game can be.

I agree and I think a lot of people tend to focus only on the realistic aspect of this, when more people also want the stylistic side to reach it's peak as well. We are nearly reaching a point where games are finally starting to come close to truly matching their concept art 1:1.

Example: Visions of Mana and Granblue Relink

 

[Zacfoldor]

To gamers who go onto gaming forums and twitter and Reddit?

Yes, more powerful hardware matters.

To everyone else who casually games or games as a hobby to relax and entertain themselves?

No, they don't really care and would be happy playing a downgraded version of a game on their phone.

While I agree convenience will drive some really bad decision making, I don't actually think traditional gaming would survive in the hands of the modern audience you described. You may be able to sell bejewled 8 to them but I doubt they will be gathering around to buy the new Team Ninja game on their phones. We would have to take a major hit in quality and quantity of our software to start catering mainly to casuals and cell phone dentist office sisses. Best to just keep things like they are now.

 

[FrankWza]

Of course all these articles come out as soon as the ps5 pro was revealed.

 

[Crayon]

What's the lowest asset and effects quality you could live with? "Graphics", but assuming resolution and framerate get to be upgraded to our standards.

 

[chokotoureiki]

I agree and I think a lot of people tend to focus only on the realistic aspect of this, when more people also want the stylistic side to reach it's peak as well. We are nearly reaching a point where games are finally starting to come close to truly matching their concept art 1:1.

Example: Visions of Mana and Granblue Relink

Yes, those games are breathtakingly gorgeous.

The great thing about powerful hardware is that gives the artist a bigger palette to work with. You can choose whichever art style you want, be it hyperrealism, cartoon, anime, cel-shaded, pixel, film noir-esque, monochromatic.

 

[tkscz]

While I agree convenience will drive some really bad decision making, I don't actually think traditional gaming would survive in the hands of the modern audience you described. You may be able to sell bejewled 8 to them but I doubt they will be gathering around to buy the new Team Ninja game on their phones. We would have to take a major hit in quality and quantity of our software to start catering mainly to casuals and cell phone dentist office sisses. Best to just keep things like they are now.

That's the thing, I'm not talking "only plays puzzle games" type of casual. I'm talking plays Mario Kart, Fortnite, Grand Thief Auto and sports titles level of casual. I've seen these people play Red Dead Redemption 2 on machines that can barely run them and they were fine. They play Doom Eternal on Switch and don't care. These are the people who can go from Call of Duty mobile to Modern Warfare III and not notice a difference in the graphics. As long as the game plays, they are happy.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

Yep. I feel like a lot of the "Wii or Switch graphics are good enough" mentality stem from insecurity, like deep down they secretly wish Nintendo would make more of an effort to boost the graphics power of their consoles and so they try to make themselves feel better by saying things like, "art style is more important" to compensate for the lack thereof. If Nintendo made a 4k Switch with ray tracing I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that they'd be all over that like white on rice.

Pikmins started this fake argument precisely when Nintendo was pushed out of the tech race because of their own wrong decisions. Up to that date, Nintendo was on top and games like Mario 64, Ocarine of Time or Wind Waker were only possible because they ran in beastly machines.

Sure they would love Mario with Astrobot's graphics or Zelda with Genshin's or Infinity Nikki's. And those are colorful cute graphics, not realistic ones, but with advanced textures, animations, physics, and all those things for which you need powerful hardware.

 

[Msamy]

One of the gurdian bullshit articles not need discussion

 

[Dorfdad]

What sells the most are good games! Point blank period. If a stable framerate or AI upscaler helps to make the game better, then that's great!

not true plenty of GREAT small games that never sell because there is no marketing and you don't know they exist. You're a niche hardcore gamer. They don't make their careers off you they need the mass market.