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[ProtoByte]

Lot of posters seem confused about what Indie, AA, and AAA games are. It's not an exact formula but something like this:

Indie = Independent developer(s), smaller budget from anywhere of $50-000-$5 million. Usually need help to publish, little to no advertising unless again they get help/exposure.

AA games are usually green lit or backed by publishers with a ton of money to expand their library of offerings, $5-40 million budget, need to sell like 1-2 million to break even. Get moderate advertising.

AAA are supposed to be blockbuster movies in videogame form north of $100 million budget, take 3+ years just to get made nowadays. High risk/High Reward for publisher. Massive advertising campaigns. Need to sell 4-5 million+, micro transactions, season passes, loot boxes, everything!

This isn't an exact science but that's the general gist of it.

Trying to attach numbers to this makes it non-functional. Because:
1) not every AAA is in the same budget bracket,
2) because these numbers have changed and will change over time and
3) because even 2 games developed over the same period of time at the same "pedigree" in 2 different countries will have very different budgets. Remedy puts out AAA games like Alan Wake 2 at less than your 100 million - 78M USD to be exact. Control's budget was less than 34M, and Control 2's budget will be barely over 52M.

So I define AAA is near to the height of what the game industry is able and willing to produce in terms of production values and expertise to a game's given genre at the time. Mario Odyssey, Astro Bot and Psychonauts 2 (probably) are absolutely AAA titles, while Yooka Laylee and Penny's Big Breakaway are not. Returnal and (probably) Hades are AAA roguelikes - Vampire Survivors is not.

Indie games or quasi-indies that get published by the big guys are anything beneath that.

So I even disagree with Yoshida that the AA market has ever existed. It's just that Japan Studio was making unappealing games from the moment the PS3 launched.

AA space marines 2 did great.

Space Marine 2 isn't AA. It was just developed in St. Petersburg, Russia.

 

[Boss Mog]

I'd rather play a good AA than some woke AAA slop any day.

 

[nial]

Yeah, Shu, we know Sony's Japanese development business was completely fucked up under your watch.

 

[nial]

Sony only wants to make AAA stuff currently. It's a different strategy from Xbox and Nintendo.

Good to know that Helldivers 2, Stellar Blade, Astro Bot, Until Dawn, Lego Horizon Adventures and Lost Soul Aside all are extremely big budget AAA productions.

 

[Blank Space Invader]

The AA market was great. Modern big business corpo killed it. Fuck big business gaming.

 

[Hudo]

Give me some examples of AA games.

Well, according to some "experts" in this thread, all of Nintendo's first-party games.

 

[PauloRoberto]

It looks like everyone is spinning and nobody is asking THE question: WHAT THE HELL is a AA game?

A AAA game is easy to identify... big bugdet, lots of people working, 'visible' high value and lots of marketing: Any 3D Mario game, any 3D Zelda, almost every big Sony game, lot's of FROM games, etc etc...

And a AA game?

 

[ProtoByte]

Yeah, Shu, we know Sony's Japanese development business was completely fucked up under your watch.

All Japanese development was fucked until 2 seconds ago. Literally the second the PS3 came out the entire sector fell way the fuck behind.

The "renaissance" we're now experiencing comes primarily from Capcom - Street Fighter titles that have always worked to some degree, Monster Hunter finally not being exclusively shackled the underpowered Nintendo hardware, and a slew of remasters and remakes.

 

[Judge Magister]

One of the best games in the video game industry...

and there are people who support this garbage.

The people are also to blame.

"Mainstream" stuff sells more. Unfortunately, most artists end up having to deal with what is commercially viable vs what they really want to do.

 

[nial]

All Japanese development was fucked until 2 seconds ago.

SCE was the most affected by it, despite having less internal development teams than the likes of Capcom or Square Enix.
Internal development wasn't even the bulk of SCE's Japanese output on PS1 and PS2, but rather, external collaborations with studios that, for one reason or another, stopped working with SCE in the PS3 era.

SCEI's output on PS2 in 2004-2006:

Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex (March 4, 2004)
Popolocrois: Tsuki no Okite no Bouken (March 18, 2004)
Doko Demo Issyo: Toro to Nagareboshi (April 1, 2004)
Koufuku Sousakan (April 15, 2004)
Vib-Ripple (May 27, 2004)
Gacha Mecha Stadium Saru Battle (July 1, 2004)
Finny the Fish & the Seven Waters (July 15, 2004)
EyeToy: Monkey Mania (August 5, 2004)
Doko Demo Issyo: Toro to Ippaii (September 2, 2004)
Waga Ryuomiyo: Pride of The Dragon Peace (October 28, 2004)
Arc the Lad: End of Darkness (November 3, 2004)
Bakufuu Slash! Kizna Arashi (November 3, 2004)
Bokura no Kazoku (March 24, 2005)
Wild Arms 4 (March 24, 2005)
Genji: Dawn of the Samurai (June 30, 2005)
Kenran Butousai (July 7, 2005)
Ape Escape 3 (July 14, 2005)
Bleach: Erabareshi Tamashii (August 4, 2005)
Mawaza (October 6, 2005)
Shadow of the Colossus (October 27, 2005)
Rogue Galaxy (December 8, 2005)
Gunparade Orchestra: Shiro no Shou – Aomori Penguin Densetsu (January 12, 2006)
Rule of Rose (January 19, 2006)
Forbidden Siren 2 (February 9, 2006)
Bleach: Hanatareshi Yabou (February 16, 2006)
Gunparade Orchestra: Midori no Shou – Ookami to Ano Shounen (March 30, 2006)
Brave Story: Wataru's Adventure (July 6, 2006)
Saru! Get You! Million Monkeys (July 13, 2006)
Gunparade Orchestra: Ao no Shou (July 20, 2006)
Blood+: Souyoku no Battle Rondo (July 27, 2006)
Everybody's Tennis (September 14, 2006)
Bleach: Blade Battlers (October 12, 2006)
Wild Arms 5 (December 14, 2006)

SCEI's output on PS3 in 2011-2013:

Bleach: Soul Ignition (June 23, 2011)
Tokyo Jungle (June 7, 2012)
Puppeteer (September 5, 2013)
Rain (October 3, 2013)

Bolded titles in both lists are internally-developed games, the rest were externally-deeloped projects.

 

[MMaRsu]

The people are also to blame.

 

[RodriGames40]

How ironic that the Switch's weak hardware turns into its strength and Switch 2 will eat well with PS4 ports

That already ran out for Nintendo, it was in the PS4 era where budgets ballooned and this is a significantly better device than it.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

All Japanese development was fucked until 2 seconds ago. Literally the second the PS3 came out the entire sector fell way the fuck behind.

The "renaissance" we're now experiencing comes primarily from Capcom - Street Fighter titles that have always worked to some degree, Monster Hunter finally not being exclusively shackled the underpowered Nintendo hardware, and a slew of remasters and remakes.

The Japanese renaissance is overstated by people trying to shit on western game development.

Square Enix has never been worse.
Konami farmed out Silent Hill to Poland because they don't have development teams. Metal Gear Solid has been farmed out to China/Philippines
Namco Bandai is about the same as they've always been maybe slightly worse
Capcom will be interesting when they run out of remakes, though it looks like they'll go from RE to Devil May Cry and Onimusha

People lump in the success of games like Marvel Rivals and the buzz around Stellar Blade and Wukong into saying that Japan has had a renaissance when these aren't even Japanese.

Other than Capcom, I'm not sure anyone is really thriving. From is making good money on really technically unsound games.

 

[Punished Miku]

The Japanese renaissance is overstated by people trying to shit on western game development.

Square Enix has never been worse.
Konami farmed out Silent Hill to Poland because they don't have development teams. Metal Gear Solid has been farmed out to China/Philippines
Namco Bandai is about the same as they've always been maybe slightly worse
Capcom will be interesting when they run out of remakes, though it looks like they'll go from RE to Devil May Cry and Onimusha

People lump in the success of games like Marvel Rivals and the buzz around Stellar Blade and Wukong into saying that Japan has had a renaissance when these aren't even Japanese.

Other than Capcom, I'm not sure anyone is really thriving. From is making good money on really technically unsound games.

And Capcom is a remake factory. In their defense they did try Kunitsu-Gami and Exoprimal but no one cared. Pragmata shit the bed from the looks of it. They're a great publisher but this is not exactly their strongest generation or anything. More RE and more MH. Onimusha is a bright spot, but again they seem to only be able to capitalize on existing IP.

 

[Kagoshima_Luke]

but AAA games suck ass

fixed

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Square Enix has never been worse.

Square is the best it’s been since the ps1 days

Lots of cherry picked hand waiving to claim Japan sucks when they don’t.

Sega is also doing better than they have in decades

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Square is the best it’s been since the ps1 days

Lots of cherry picked hand waiving to claim Japan sucks when they don’t.

Sega is also doing better than they have in decades

Square was much better on PS2 than this. They're a complete shell of their former selves.

I didn't say Japan sucks and how did I cherry pick, I literally named all the biggest Japanese publishers...

Sega is not doing better than they have. The company that made Shenmue, Virtua Fighter, NFL 2K, and Sonic Adventure is nothing now. I'll ignore NFL 2K since it was never Japanese.

 

[blacktout]

Are Obsidian AA?

I don't know about Avowed, but The Outer Worlds is a textbook AA game: a product with a modest (but not small) budget and scope, made by a midsized studio.

 

[Zeblatoul]

Jokes aside, Obsidian, Double Fine, Undead Labs, inXile, Compulsion all are AA studios. Nintendo also puts out tons of AA stuff. It really is only Sony 1st party that doesn't. It shouldn't even be a controversial point since it's plainly there for people to see. But now at least we have the guy on the inside explicitly stating it for people that can't see.

While they did cut back, Returnal and Astro bot are still AA imho. And that Returnal sequel is as well. I would not consider Helldivers 2 or shitty lego horizon AAA either

 

[demigod]

I think someone was giving me shit yesterday for saying that Sony doesn't really support AA currently like Xbox 1st party does. Glad I didn't have to wait 5 years to get validated this time.

It says it right there plain as day. Sony only wants to make AAA stuff currently. It's a different strategy from Xbox and Nintendo. Its just a fact.

Nah fam. Xbox makes AAA and even AAAA games, but their quality ends up being AA.

 

[SHA]

The target audience grew up already and don't give a shit.

 

[W11d]

Sony needs more AAA games.
That's what people want.
We need a new Uncharted.

 

[RickMasters]

And yet….. this is the area Sony should develop more. Otherwise what’s the plan? Money hat 3p games until their AAA games are ready? Set up some double A studios to fill the gap. Your a big company, you can suck any loss in outed from low cost development. They are dunce as MS but in a different way.

 

[Holammer]

That's what a aa game is. AA doesn't corelate to the amount of people.

Stardew valley was made by 1 guy. It's a AA game

AA & AAA indicate the cost of people employed in a project.
A guy working alone from home with cola and frozen pizza is as indie as it gets.

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

That’s such a cop out answer. there were certainly games they could’ve made if they wanted to invest in them.

Half or more of Nintendo’s annual output are “AA games”.

 

[bitbydeath]

It looks like everyone is spinning and nobody is asking THE question: WHAT THE HELL is a AA game?

A AAA game is easy to identify... big bugdet, lots of people working, 'visible' high value and lots of marketing: Any 3D Mario game, any 3D Zelda, almost every big Sony game, lot's of FROM games, etc etc...

And a AA game?

Technically remasters would fit into the AA definition of low budget + low staff.

 

[W11d]

That’s such a cop out answer. there were certainly games they could’ve made if they wanted to invest in them.

Half or more of Nintendo’s annual output are “AA games”.

It works better for Nintendo cause these AA are linked to old popular IPs

 

[Gp1]

What Shu meant was that Japan studio closed because it became expensive to make AA games in Japan while the market for those games was taken over a by developers from Eastern Europe, other Asian countries and Indies in generalml
For a fraction of the price.

 

[bitbydeath]

It works better for Nintendo cause these AA are linked to old popular IPs

I’d argue Nintendo’s games are AAA and the level of polish is more important than blown out budgets.

 

[W11d]

I’d argue Nintendo’s games are AAA and the level of polish is more important than blown out budgets.

If Mario Party and Mario & Luigi Brothership are AAA then all Japan Studio games are AAA as well.

 

[bitbydeath]

If Mario Party and Mario & Luigi Brothership are AAA then all Japan Studio games are AAA as well.

Well, not all of them.
But games like Luigi’s mansion I would count as AAA.

 

[PendekarRajawali]

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I didn't read any of the responses to this thread, but let me guess...

NeoGAF: "Shuhei is an idiot because of these 4 successful AA franchises!"

Did I nail it?

 

[Loomy]

So dumb. And completely false.

Shu baby... the amount of AA games that have been great far exceeds the aaa games that have been released in that time period.

Dredge, signalis, vampire survivor.... the list goes on. Massive shit in pants moment for Shu

Shu's explanation for the decline of Japan Studio reeks of corporate deflection and a profound misunderstanding of the gaming landscape. His assertion that the "double-A market disappeared" is a lazy generalization, a convenient excuse for a failure to adapt. To claim that a market segment simply vanished ignores the vibrant indie scene and the countless mid-sized titles that thrive by embracing innovation and niche audiences. This narrative conveniently shifts blame away from Sony's internal decisions, suggesting that external forces, rather than strategic missteps, led to Japan Studio's demise.

At the time Japan Studio was was closed/restructured that was the case. Was there a market for "AA" games? Yes. Were those players buying AA games on console? No. They were not.

His account of Keiichiro Toyama's rejected concepts paints a picture of a company stifling creativity in favor of safe, predictable AAA returns. "We were not able to greenlight any of his new concepts" is a bureaucratic platitude that masks a fundamental lack of vision. Instead of nurturing talent and taking calculated risks, Sony appears to have prioritized chasing trends, a strategy that ultimately homogenizes the gaming market. His following statement, that the company wanted only AAA titles, while also stating that Japan studio held many double A titles, shows a clear contradiction, and lack of clarity.

They prioritized growing a profitable business, yeah. Since this forum loves, Steam CCU, check out the CCU for Slitterhead(around 700). The game sold less than 5000 copies when it came out on PS5. Are you surprised Sony no longer wanted to fund those concepts?

We treat this like some huge conspiracy, that Sony hated Japan Studio or something. In reality, it's incredibly simple - like Shu explained here. The games they made were not selling, and not what people associated with the Playstation brand at the time.

 

[Dorfdad]

Plenty of room for AA games. Not ever developer can support a budget or talent for AAA games. I kinda feel like all AA titles ar just being relabeled as Indie now.

But I don't see why we can't get 8-10 games with AA budgets than could become bigger franchises. Let them experiment and grow new IP's

 

[Vaquilla]

I'd hesitate to call any Nintendo game AAA, not because of quality, but because even something like Breath of the Wild likely costs a small fraction of the big AAA blockbusters like Call of Duty, Spiderman, Horizon, God of War, GTA, etc.
By current industry standards, even Zelda or Mario are AA really.

Arguably the smartest thing Nintendo ever did was decide to divest from the graphics arms race.

 

[flying_sq]

F in the chat for a fantastic studio, and for making an underrated gem on PS3.

 

[Griffon]

The AA market still lives just fine on PC and Switch.

 

[nial]

Let's not forget that Shuhei Yoshida didn't have any experience with the Japanese development biz for 8 whole years until he became president of WWS. He missed a very important transition period that was poorly headed by the likes of Phil Harrison (first head of WWS), Tomikazu Kirita and Yasuhide Kobayashi.
One of his moves to fix WWS Japan was to appoint Allan Becker (former head of Santa Monica Studio, a single department of WWS America) as SVP of the division. Later that year, Masami Yamamoto and Kazuo Kato were appointed as studio heads of the newly established External Development Department and Internal Development Department studios respectively; when both were consolidated into a single studio (Product Development Department) in April 2016, Kazuo Kato, the less productive out of the two, was appointed head of that studio, which produced basically every Japanese first-party game from that point in the PS4 era.
It was clear that Kazuo Kato's performance wasn't precisely positive (though I will give him that he tried to run the best he could for what was a fucked up situation), and the transitional period of 2019-2021 ultimately concluded in him getting sacked.
Fast forward to 2025, there's fresh blood in the company running things, Nicolas Doucet at internal development (Astro Bot), Arnaud Saint-Martin at external development (Rise of the Ronin, Stellar Blade), and another group that specifically produces Chinese games, seemingly at the helm of Bao Bo (Lost Soul Aside).

 

[March Climber]

People are going all around this thread confusing AAs with AAAs and indies then acting shocked the AA market is non-existent.

I have always considered AA games to be games like Wayfinder, Robocop, or Space Marine 2.

Much lower in the millions budget, but high enough budget to afford voice actors, some cutscenes, and high end graphical capabilities.

3 things that indie devs struggle with because it requires more manpower than they can usually afford.

AAA has that extra step of Mo-cap acting, high end animations with attention to detail, huge billboards and paid advertisements, red carpet-style reveal and rollout marketing, etc.

Death Stranding 2 is an example of AAA. With any cutscene in that game, an AA team would need a huge asterisk (of funds and manpower) to do something of that caliber.

A good enough AA dev team can always make you feel like you’re playing an AAA game, with enough creativity and a bit of trickery.

 

[vkbest]

Nope.

The fact that people think it's AA kinda shows why AA is dead. It's being squeezed from the top by AAA-driven feature expectations, and squeezed from the bottom by indie devs innovation + cheaper dev costs.

No way a game developed in 3 years with 60 people is AAA game.

 

[The Pleasure]

AA is just another word for garbage, it has no meaning.

If you mean low budget, Sony supports a lot of those games in Asia, just not with their own studios.

Gravity Rush sold like shit, Stellar Blade did far better

That's because when Stellar Blade bends over, the wagon goes with her.

 

[FeastYoEyes]

PS5: Japan Studio closed because the double-A market has ‘disappeared’, says Shuhei Yoshida | VGC

The former SIE president says the market became “really difficult” for the types of games Japan Studio made…

www.videogameschronicle.com

Feels like a poor excuse.

 

[Danjin44]

Sony.....

Spoiler: NSFW

 

[GigaBowser]

liiiiaaarrrr astrobot and returnmal are the best games on PS5 annnnnd AA games pal

most nintendos games AA

 

[xrnzaaas]

Companies like Sony will always want to market everything as AAA, even if the game is leaning more towards AA. Should Returnal be considered a triple A game? Probably not, but calling it that will justify the 80€ pricetag.

 

[Astray]

You're just arguing semantics then. If what you're calling "indie" has a millionaire budget and is worked on by teams numbering the dozens, what's even the fucking difference?

No indie has a millionaire budget. You're just mentioning indie games like Hades 2 and calling them AA when in fact they are not.

Examples of AA games are things like Banishers: Ghost of New Eden, or Vampyr or Chorvs, or Slitterhead.

Nearly all of the above list flopped btw.

No way a game developed in 3 years with 60 people is AAA game.

It's a AAA game. Just look at the marketing campaign it got, look at the polish it clesrly got.

Being made efficiently does not magically make a game AA.

People in this thread have been clearly playing AAAs for so long that they forgot what a AA actually is.

 

[Panajev2001a]

At the time Japan Studio was was closed/restructured that was the case. Was there a market for "AA" games? Yes. Were those players buying AA games on console? No. They were not.


They prioritized growing a profitable business, yeah. Since this forum loves, Steam CCU, check out the CCU for Slitterhead(around 700). The game sold less than 5000 copies when it came out on PS5. Are you surprised Sony no longer wanted to fund those concepts?

We treat this like some huge conspiracy, that Sony hated Japan Studio or something. In reality, it's incredibly simple - like Shu explained here. The games they made were not selling, and not what people associated with the Playstation brand at the time.

One thing I liked about Sony is that they also fostered internal talent, Polyphony did not start with GT but with far less successful content, and allowed projects to be published that were not meant to sell a LOT but to enrich the software offering and with PS+ they have an avenue for those releases and a need for them again.

First party titles were not just about making money but to prove concepts, to make a case for the HW, to add variety to the software output (each of the games could lead to small sale figures but to different audiences per game thus giving one more incentive to each group to jump on the console… last drop in the bucket can be very helpful, might be what tips the scale ) to lead their party devs showing them what the potential of the HW could do. To take smaller calculated risks for them. There is a lot of value for first party funded A and AA games beyond the sales.

 

[KungFucius]

So dumb. And completely false.

Shu baby... the amount of AA games that have been great far exceeds the aaa games that have been released in that time period.

Dredge, signalis, vampire survivor.... the list goes on. Massive shit in pants moment for Shu

That is not what an AA game is, those are indies. AA games are AAA - like but light on scope and sometimes polish. Outer Worlds Would be basically the limit of AA or maybe the lowest AAA game. Recent games Kena, Evil West, Eternal Strands

 

[Yoboman]

It didn't though it just moved digital

If we are being honest Sony's real issue is that AA games became a $40 product