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[Topher]

I haven't read all you guys back and forth but legit asking

You don't believe Steam will be accessible from a PC hybrid or just saying said machine would have to loosen restrictions?

Because I don't believe this particle machine will be that closed but this is 100% an actual guess

If it is a hybrid then I guess it will depend on how open it is. If people are able to install other storefronts on a strip downed version of Windows or something like that then sure. I'm saying I don't see a case where Valve partners with a closed console to put Steam alongside the platform's own store.

Perfect timing......

People haven’t been paying attention.

Phil Spencer wants Epic Games Store and others on Xbox consoles

More stores mean more sales!

www.polygon.com

You skipped a key part:

"Spencer mentioned his frustrations with closed ecosystems, so we asked for clarity. Could he really see a future where stores like Itch.io and Epic Games Store existed on Xbox? Was it just a matter of figuring out mountains of paperwork to get there?"

An open ecosystem "console" is simply a SFF PC.

 

[reinking]

People haven’t been paying attention.

Phil Spencer wants Epic Games Store and others on Xbox consoles

More stores mean more sales!

www.polygon.com

Do you believe these will be "Alienware" priced consoles? Or, do you believe they can get the costs down and still make enough profit? Not that I have not paid attention, when I originally read that my thought was that it will price mass market "console" players out.

 

[Topher]

I am trying to figure out what is in it for MS/XB unless they can get a small commission on Steam sales through their console. I do not think adding Steam to a "PC-like" console is going to be a big draw for people that are not already part of the Xbox eco-system. I do not think this is going to be a system seller the way it is being implemented (if it is). If they could have pulled this off on a $500 console, I believe it would have been huge. Doing on what is expected to be a premium priced hybrid console isn't that big of a draw. Even the handheld would be competing with other Steam compatible handhelds (including Steam Deck 2). Like I said earlier, I am willing to watch and see. If they have a decent looking hybrid and it is not too overly priced, I will buy one myself. I just think this could backfire and dilute the Xbox brand even more...

I think they would have to sell the hardware at a profit or simply license out the Xbox brand to OEMs.

 

[kevboard]

I don't see a market for this. The reason that consoles are successful are because people don't want to PC game and prefer the comfort and ease of use of a console. If you're now getting rid of the identity of a console by shifting towards a PC box you put in your living room then you effectively aren't even a console anymore and you've lost yourself as a brand. Xbox as a brand has absolutely 0 identity and this isn't going to help things because the market isn't going to buy this and no one is asking for this outside of like 1% of console gamers.

you are basically describing the current gen consoles there.

the difference between PC and console these days is the frontend interface. that's basically it.

 

[reinking]

I think they would have to sell the hardware at a profit or simply license out the Xbox brand to OEMs.

I agree but I am trying to determine who it is marketed to. I do not see traditional PC players making the switch since they already have access to those things. I do not see PS/Nintendo console players making the switch because they rejected Xbox consoles this generation. The only real target I see is current Xbox players and those are shrinking. Maybe that is the plan, to maintain those players and keep them from jumping to PC, but again, pricing is going to be key. If those players can buy/build a less expensive alternative, they might lose them too. They can't even use Game Pass as a draw in this situation because Game Pass is cheaper on traditional PC. At least for now. All of the Xbox fanatics that have been pushing PC are probably going to get their wish.

I'm not really knocking the strategy but trying to think of the benefits of doing it this way now. Maybe the OS will really be that good? Maybe it will be powerful enough to take over the growing micro-pc market? Maybe it will get more people to hook a PC up to a TV? It seems to me that it solves problems that used to exist instead of current ones.

*I have plans to buy a Beelink Micro-PC with the oculink dock. If this new Xbox pans out, and I see a benefit to it over the Beelink, I will buy the Xbox day one.

 

[simpatico]

You can argue if this is a good idea or not, but this is the only option they have left beyond not doing any hardware at all.

It just makes sense. Why spend millions if not billions building a walled garden around silicon that can run hundreds of thousands of games right out of the box?

 

[ManaByte]

you are basically describing the current gen consoles there.

the difference between PC and console these days is the frontend interface. that's basically it.

Consoles have been small form factor PCs for two generations now.

 

[Ritsumei2020]

Fuck now Im conflicted, I thought there was no way the next Xbox was going to be a success but Neogaf is famous for shit predictions on its first page. So who knows, maybe the next Xbox is going to sell really well.

 

[Dr. Samuel Hayden]

So they're definitely getting rid of the online paywall if they do this right?

Right?

 

[ShaiKhulud1989]

Consoles have been small form factor PCs for two generations now.

Point me to a PC with custom ssd controller with hardware Kraken support, unified memory and tempest 3D audio chip. Presumably with custom BT protocol and wifi/bt onboard. Consoles are still quite heavily custom, even Xbox Series.

 

[ManaByte]

Point me to a PC with custom ssd controller with hardware Kraken support, unified memory and tempest 3D audio chip. Presumably with custom BT protocol and wifi/bt onboard. Consoles are still quite heavily custom, even Xbox Series.

 

[Topher]

I agree but I am trying to determine who it is marketed to. I do not see traditional PC players making the switch since they already have access to those things. I do not see PS/Nintendo console players making the switch because they rejected Xbox consoles this generation. The only real target I see is current Xbox players and those are shrinking. Maybe that is the plan, to maintain those players and keep them from jumping to PC, but again, pricing is going to be key. If those players can buy/build a less expensive alternative, they might lose them too. They can't even use Game Pass as a draw in this situation because Game Pass is cheaper on traditional PC. At least for now. All of the Xbox fanatics that have been pushing PC are probably going to get their wish.

I'm not really knocking the strategy but trying to think of the benefits of doing it this way now. Maybe the OS will really be that good? Maybe it will be powerful enough to take over the growing micro-pc market? Maybe it will get more people to hook a PC up to a TV? It seems to me that it solves problems that used to exist instead of current ones.

*I have plans to buy a Beelink Micro-PC with the oculink dock. If this new Xbox pans out, and I see a benefit to it over the Beelink, I will buy the Xbox day one.

It's a good question and I don't know that there is a good answer. I certainly don't.

I'm hoping oculink takes off in the future. I've seen a few mini PCs with them these days. Might breathe new life into the eGPU market.

you are basically describing the current gen consoles there.

the difference between PC and console these days is the frontend interface. that's basically it.

Consoles have been small form factor PCs for two generations now.

Then I guess you can already install Steam or GOG on your Xbox then? No? Then it isn't a PC. Closed ecosystem changes everything.

 

[ManaByte]

Then I guess you can already install Steam or GOG on your Xbox then? No? Then it isn't a PC. Closed ecosystem changes everything.

Both companies have been using AMD GPUs and x86 CPUs for two generations and AMD sells the equivalent hardware to build PCs with. It’s not remotely the same as consoles previously using custom designed processors like he Emotion Engine or Cell. They’re cheap PCs and have been for 11 years now. Pretending they aren’t is pure denial.

 

[Topher]

Both companies have been using AMD GPUs and x86 CPUs for two generations and AMD sells the equivalent hardware to build PCs with. It’s not remotely the same as consoles previously using custom designed processors like he Emotion Engine or Cell. They’re cheap PCs and have been for 11 years now. Pretending they aren’t is pure denial.

No shit. Who said otherwise? I'm pointing out that there is more to the differences between a PC and a console than that. You already know this or you are being willfully ignorant.

 

[ShaiKhulud1989]

Both companies have been using AMD GPUs and x86 CPUs for two generations and AMD sells the equivalent hardware to build PCs with. It’s not remotely the same as consoles previously using custom designed processors like he Emotion Engine or Cell. They’re cheap PCs and have been for 11 years now. Pretending they aren’t is pure denial.

In short: you're confused, especially on software side of things. PS5 is using it's own heavily custom renedering pipeline and Xbox Series is full of hardware-related tricks too.

But even with that x86 means nothing outside of relative ease of cross-platform development. Consoles handle memory pool in vastly different way, they have customized blocks (for BC on Xbox and for PSSR/Kraken on PS5), things are never 1 to 1 even in basic things like the OS. That's why PS4 emulation took so long for a x86 platform on x86 PCs lol.

My god, some takes here.

 

[LectureMaster]

At the this point I feel like the only way out for Xbox is to make a good valued handheld that can access both Xbox and PC library.

It's a dead end on the console race lane.

 

[odhiex]

No wonder it would probably have another store fronts can be installed like Steam, Epic, etc. on it, because it's a fuxking PC.

They're gonna OEM that Windows 12/Xbox thing to other "console manufacturers" in 2027 lol

 

[Astray]

People are placing too much stock into the x86 stuff. There's far more to the console business than just making a cheap PC.

You have to include some sort of secret sauce that makes these machines as optimized as possible, you have to invest into custom software, you have to invest into a lot of things, and this iteration of "Xbox" will likely fail because the leadership is rn very motivated to design their way into cutting spending on all of these very essential things.

you are basically describing the current gen consoles there.

the difference between PC and console these days is the frontend interface. that's basically it.

Lmao no.

Both Xbox and Playstation have invested a lot into their machines to make them perform better than equivalent PC specs would.

Theres a reason why PC optimization fell down a deep hole when current gen-targeting games started coming out.

At the this point I feel like the only way out for Xbox is to make a good valued handheld that can access both Xbox and PC library.

It's a dead end on the console race lane.

If the brand has to change significantly in a short period of time to survive, then said brand is clinically dead already and just waiting for someone to pull the plug.

 

[LectureMaster]

If the brand has to change significantly in a short period of time to survive, then said brand is clinically dead already and just waiting for someone to pull the plug.

Can't speak for others, but for me I value the quality of a product over branding all the time, especially when it comes to consumer electronics. If Xbox makes a good handheld, I'll buy it.

 

[ManaByte]

In short: you're confused, especially on software side of things. PS5 is using it's own heavily custom renedering pipeline and Xbox Series is full of hardware-related tricks too.

They’re still using AMD hardware you can buy right now and build a PC with.

 

[FIREKNIGHT2029]

This is the only path left for them. A traditional console will be dead on arrival because no will buy it after the way they've failed hard two gens in a row.


This new PC Xbox will still fail hard but the investment on their part will be a lot less than it would be if they did R&D on a traditional console.

 

[Astray]

Can't speak for others, but for me I value the quality of a product over branding all the time, especially when it comes to consumer electronics. If Xbox makes a good handheld, I'll buy it.

Yeah I'm talking more from a strategy and management standpoint.

Microsoft generally makes nice hardware imo. A bit soulless and sterile in design imho, but well-built nonetheless.

 

[Astray]

They’re still using AMD hardware you can buy right now and build a PC with.

Can you buy a motherboard right now with Kraken decompression, onboard 3D sound hardware and supporting shared memory pools between GPU and CPU?

 

[Ebrietas]

Consoles aren’t defined by what kind of chips power them.

Switch isn’t a “cheap smartphone” because it uses mobile class hardware.

 

[Topher]

They’re still using AMD hardware you can buy right now AMD build a PC with.

Really? Show where the exact same APUs being used in PlayStation and Xbox Series are being sold right now.

 

[kevboard]

Lmao no.

Both Xbox and Playstation have invested a lot into their machines to make them perform better than equivalent PC specs would.

Theres a reason why PC optimization fell down a deep hole when current gen-targeting games started coming out.

they perfom maybe 5% better than the equivalent PC specs.
the only time this is a larger discrepancy is if the port sucks, which is a dev issue, not a hardware issue.

also the hardware inside the consoles is barely customised. it's off the shelf hardware that has been stripped of stuff they don't need for cost reasons.

the minimal performance difference between a console and an identically specced PC comes down to devs being able to target a specific spec, and a tiny difference in OS and API overhead.

a standardized PC with a specific gaming oriented frontend is in principle identical to a PS5 or Series X. because that's literally what they are. PCs with standardized hardware and a gaming oriented frontend.

 

[ManaByte]

Consoles aren’t defined by what kind of chips power them.

Switch isn’t a “cheap smartphone” because it uses mobile class hardware.

I’m just going to pretend that people didn’t spend the past 8 years calling the Switch an underpowered tablet.

 

[ManaByte]

Really? Show where the exact same APUs being used in PlayStation and Xbox Series are being sold right now.

I never said you can buy an APU. But those APUs are composed of hardware AMD sells:

CPU:

https://www.newegg.com/amd-ryzen-7-3700x/p/N82E16819113574

Series X GPU:

https://www.newegg.com/radeon-rx-6700-xt-amd-radeon-rx-6700xt/p/27N-0018-00114

PS5 GPU:

https://www.newegg.com/asrock-challenger-d-rx6600xt-cld-8go-amd-radeon-rx-6600-xt-8gb-gddr6/p/N82E16814930063

 

[Fafalada]

I agree but I am trying to determine who it is marketed to. I do not see traditional PC players making the switch since they already have access to those things.

The problem is GamePass experience on existing PCs is abysmal.
Literally - you get a superior experience by running GamePass games through GeForce Now, compared to using whatever sorry excuse MS passes for their UX/App. Even with the much reduced library on GFNow and the latency trade-off, it's STILL objectively better.

So given strategy is 'more XBox players' - this would have to be central to whatever they're planning.
HW is completely secondary and largely irrelevant as end-success driver - but it could be the vehicle to highlight the improved experience (if such a thing existed) with a preconfigured system that carries nice branding and start getting people into ecosystem outside of Xbox faithful. MS has proven they can built better Windows PCs than anyone else on the market with Surface line, so if you had the gaming equivalent of that, that's your gateway to start eating other stores marketshare.
Eventually MS wins when everyone is just using it on standard devices/PCs anyway - but they can still make money off of premium HW parallel to it all, the two are pretty orthogonal and reinforce each other.

*I have plans to buy a Beelink Micro-PC with the oculink dock. If this new Xbox pans out, and I see a benefit to it over the Beelink, I will buy the Xbox day one.

So you're already the potential target audience.

 

[Panajev2001a]

also the hardware inside the consoles is barely customised. it's off the shelf hardware that has been stripped of stuff they don't need for cost reasons.

Looks at PS5 and PS5 Pro GPUs and the mix of RDNA versions they have.

Looks at the Ryzen CPU in PS5 and the massively re-organised FPU: https://chipsandcheese.com/p/the-nerfed-fpu-in-ps5s-zen-2-cores

Looks at the I/O of the console and all the custom HW they have for that and audio…

On the PC comment, keep under appreciating devs that get heavy console titles to perform well on PC and minimise how difficult it is to navigate the HW, drivers, and OS differences (let alone the lack of standardised technology to accelerate many tasks like I/O, having split memory pools, etc…) when current generation exclusives / current gen led games have a hard time on PC.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

They’re still using AMD hardware you can buy right now and build a PC with.

I think you are confused about a closed system, it has nothing to do with the hardware used

 

[Fafalada]

they perfom maybe 5% better than the equivalent PC specs.
the only time this is a larger discrepancy is if the port sucks, which is a dev issue, not a hardware issue.

Eh that's circular reasoning that's been around for decades, long before consoles were 'literal' PCs in a box. Many 'bad' PC ports are actually direct result of hw differences, the 'lazy dev' complaint is simply devs not rearchitecting the codebase to fit the hardware constraints. Which is just how ports are always done - or at least 99.999%, so calling it lazy, is basically calling most ports (good and bad) lazy. Including PC->console ones.
In fairness - porting is intended to be cheap/lazy by design (it's after all - about maximizing profits), but that's neither here nor there.

a standardized PC with a specific gaming oriented frontend is in principle identical to a PS5 or Series X. because that's literally what they are. PCs with standardized hardware and a gaming oriented frontend.

There are differences in sourcing/supply chain of parts - consoles cost efficiency to the platform holder is quite different. But obviously that's not an issue for PC with a gaming frontend as it would be sold on PC pricing terms anyway. Even SteamDeck is more expensive than a console equivalent would have been, and competition only gets pricier.
And sure - company of MS size could optimize their products better there than most of the other players.

 

[Topher]

I never said you can buy an APU. But those APUs are composed of hardware AMD sells:

CPU:

https://www.newegg.com/amd-ryzen-7-3700x/p/N82E16819113574

Series X GPU:

https://www.newegg.com/radeon-rx-6700-xt-amd-radeon-rx-6700xt/p/27N-0018-00114

PS5 GPU:

https://www.newegg.com/asrock-challenger-d-rx6600xt-cld-8go-amd-radeon-rx-6600-xt-8gb-gddr6/p/N82E16814930063

Yeah, because these consoles are using custom hardware. According to your logic, if I build a computer with an ARM processor then it is a Mac.

As far as those GPUs.....

XSX: 3328 cores, 320 bit bus, 1825 MHz
6700 XT: 2560 cores, 192 bus width, 2321 MHz

PS5: 2304 cores, 256 bit bus, 2233 MHz
6600 XT: 2048 cores, 128 bit bus, 2359 MHz

AMD Xbox Series X GPU Specs

AMD Scarlett, 1825 MHz, 3328 Cores, 208 TMUs, 64 ROPs, 10240 MB GDDR6, 1750 MHz, 320 bit

www.techpowerup.com

AMD Radeon RX 6700 XT Specs

AMD Navi 22, 2581 MHz, 2560 Cores, 160 TMUs, 64 ROPs, 12288 MB GDDR6, 2000 MHz, 192 bit

www.techpowerup.com

AMD Playstation 5 GPU Specs

AMD Oberon, 2233 MHz, 2304 Cores, 144 TMUs, 64 ROPs, 16384 MB GDDR6, 1750 MHz, 256 bit

www.techpowerup.com

https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-rx-6600-xt.c3774

 

[Astray]

they perfom maybe 5% better than the equivalent PC specs.
the only time this is a larger discrepancy is if the port sucks, which is a dev issue, not a hardware issue.

Why do you think Devs struggle to optimize for unoptimized hardware that's cobbled together from like 3-5 different vendors? Serious question.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

This is the only path left for them. A traditional console will be dead on arrival because no will buy it after the way they've failed hard two gens in a row.


This new PC Xbox will still fail hard but the investment on their part will be a lot less than it would be if they did R&D on a traditional console.

Yeah the goal is simply to offer an extension for owners in their ecosystem already to continue playing their library.

They will not subsidize the console, and it will sell very little (less than 20M over the entire gen).

 

[amigastar]

I personally wish them great success with it.

 

[Astray]

Yeah, because these consoles are using custom hardware. According to your logic, if I build a computer with an ARM processor then it is a Mac.

As far as those GPUs.....

XSX: 3328 cores, 320 bit bus, 1825 MHz
6700 XT: 2560 cores, 192 bus width, 2321 MHz

PS5: 2304 cores, 256 bit bus, 2233 MHz
6600 XT: 2048 cores, 128 bit bus, 2359 MHz

AMD Xbox Series X GPU Specs

AMD Scarlett, 1825 MHz, 3328 Cores, 208 TMUs, 64 ROPs, 10240 MB GDDR6, 1750 MHz, 320 bit

www.techpowerup.com

AMD Radeon RX 6700 XT Specs

AMD Navi 22, 2581 MHz, 2560 Cores, 160 TMUs, 64 ROPs, 12288 MB GDDR6, 2000 MHz, 192 bit

www.techpowerup.com

AMD Playstation 5 GPU Specs

AMD Oberon, 2233 MHz, 2304 Cores, 144 TMUs, 64 ROPs, 16384 MB GDDR6, 1750 MHz, 256 bit

www.techpowerup.com

https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-rx-6600-xt.c3774

Notice how he ignored my earlier question too.

Can you buy a motherboard right now with Kraken decompression, onboard 3D sound hardware and supporting shared memory pools between GPU and CPU?

 

[Hohenheim]

Sounds good.

A lot will depend on specs and price point.

I think it will offer a narrow window where hardware will offer good performance for price point. Max 2-3 yrs I say. After that pc parts will start coming offering better features and VFM.

They will have to offer new specs every 5 yrs or less to keep up with pc hardware development.

I see no issue in dropping cash every 5 yrs to get upto date performance.

So.. Just like upgrading a PC then.

 

[bitbydeath]

If people had been following along here at GAF they would have known this box would be a PC based machine with a user friendly console like experience, have been saying this for maybe a year now?

As far as no devkits as other said in the 2026 COD thread that of course there are no true devkits as its a PC based on specs


They were still looking at a traditional console, I don't think we are only getting the handheld (this year would be my bet) and the PC inspired box

This was my understanding as well but from recent messaging this year it feels like the plans had changed/evolved.

Now it sounds more like a cloud future on OEM devices. Of course being a PC it will be able to handle both cloud and digital but the cloud aspect I suspect will be used to specifically handle BC.

 

[Topher]

Notice how he ignored my earlier question too.

Creating false equivalences requires ignoring a lot of inconvenient facts.

 

[bitbydeath]

They’re still using AMD hardware you can buy right now and build a PC with.

They’re not doing this.
They’re using AMD but not AMD hardware.
It’s no different to consoles in the past using Toshiba or whomever back in the day. They all need someone with the skills to design/build it.

 

[Ashamam]

So basically what Jez is saying is that he read my post.

I find the idea that a 'traditional' devkit is already available not credible. An agreed PC spec labelled as a devkit sure, but mostly complete custom silicon seems very unlikely.

Obligatory nod to onQ123, couldn't have done it without you.

 

[deriks]

I don't see a market for this. The reason that consoles are successful are because people don't want to PC game and prefer the comfort and ease of use of a console. If you're now getting rid of the identity of a console by shifting towards a PC box you put in your living room then you effectively aren't even a console anymore and you've lost yourself as a brand. Xbox as a brand has absolutely 0 identity and this isn't going to help things because the market isn't going to buy this and no one is asking for this outside of like 1% of console gamers.

Since Xbox One the OS are Windows, so it's basically a PC simplified, and works well

Could be better thou, without the online shenanigans for example

 

[Ebrietas]

They’re not doing this.
They’re using AMD but not AMD hardware.
It’s no different to consoles in the past using Toshiba or whomever back in the day. They all need someone with the skills to design/build it.

No you see it isn’t a console unless Sony designs and manufacturers every single component in house.

 

[bitbydeath]

So they're definitely getting rid of the online paywall if they do this right?

Right?

I believe they are, BUT something people haven’t discussed is that the cloud isn’t a free service.

If you want to play all your old games you’ll need to sub.

 

[Embearded]

If that's true then the only way to run previous gen games would be through cloud.
I don't think they will be able to run Series games on a PC.

 

[Buggy Loop]

So an itx pc basically

I would honestly consider a more than optimized ITX build with lowered cost by a company like MS mass produced rather than AIBs fleecing on mini-ITX and charging more money than an ATX build "just because" its a nicher market where peoples pay premium from all other fleecing companies to be compact.

A more gaming focused OS maybe while we're at it and allow Steam on it. With a 2~3 years iteration it could be amazing. I would seriously consider it.

 

[Puscifer]

They built their own grave. And Sony are incredibly following the same "Future is PC" path. It's not. The easiest way is on PC, sure.

But people do like buying dedicated boxes to play their games. hence PS4, PS5 (at this price...) and Switch successes in the age of "only PC and mobile future".

The moment you guys switched to x86 on PS4 you became dedicated Windows/FreeBSD/Linux boxes.

 

[Puscifer]

I would honestly consider a more than optimized ITX build with lowered cost by a company like MS mass produced rather than AIBs fleecing on mini-ITX and charging more money than an ATX build "just because" its a nicher market where peoples pay premium from all other fleecing companies to be compact.

A more gaming focused OS maybe while we're at it and allow Steam on it. With a 2~3 years iteration it could be amazing. I would seriously consider it.

I said the same thing. That a box with a dedicated hardware spec could make hardware last even longer than it does now (seriously, how the hell the 1070/1080/1080ti/titan XP are STILL going baffles me). You'd have to guarantee that box works and scale up for 5-8 years.

My itx builds usually add another 150-200 for an sfx PSU upgrade, case and motherboard. If they pull it off I'm not joking that it's likely a keeper for me depending on how repairable it is + if I have full access to the windows OS when I DO need it

 

[Sanepar]

Point me to a PC with custom ssd controller with hardware Kraken support, unified memory and tempest 3D audio chip. Presumably with custom BT protocol and wifi/bt onboard. Consoles are still quite heavily custom, even Xbox Series.

The secret sauce for 30 fps and low settings.