Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
My take from playing the Beta for a day now is that someone at WOTC is getting fired.
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Magic: the Gathering |OT10| Aether Revolt - That shit that make your Soul Burn slow
- Thread starter SigmasonicX
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Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
"Oh nice it's regular UW flash for once", gets comboed turn 8 off an aether hub...
"Mardu vehicles, we have a game", never mind combo
"Okay countered their combo, now just--- they drew into it right away again not even 20 cards into the deck."
inspiring vantage port town concede
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Like, I'm not Magic Nostradamus or anything, but the deck is legitimately less fun than playing Aetherworks and its better than Aetherworks and beats Aetherworks. I'm not even beating it with decks specifically constructed to beat it unless I play the deck also.
Joe Molotov
Member
Meanwhile, at R&D:
Etrian Oddity
Member
So how pricey is it to build budget, viable Modern decks? Because this Standard is the worst I've seen since I got back into Magic.
Depends on how budget is your budget.
I quit Standard just before the current block, and built a Soul Sisters modern deck. Personally I love it, and it honestly wasn't very expensive to put together (save a few key cards). It isn't a top tier modern deck, but it's viable and usually a LOT of fun to play.
What do you like to play?
8 whack is budget friendly and leads into burn relatively easily. Maybe around 240 with guides (most expensive at 35 or so per)
Etrian Oddity
Member
My favorite decks include Sidisi Whip/Delve/Reanimator, Kiora Ramp/Fatty, and Fish.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Well I finally had a fun game playing a Vehicles deck against some dude running GB Counters or some such other non-combo wombo brew.
What were you running in it? I've been wanting to put together a fun vehicles deck to just bring to FNMs.
Merfolk is relatively inexpensive as well depending on your overall budget.
Expensive cards are vials, and caverns and one each of the kamigawa blue lands.
Also if you ever enter into legacy it has an easy upgrade path with 4 forces, 4 daze, 4 true name and a Jitte.
Mtggoldfish a good place to check the modern decks, it even has a budget part.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/modern#paper
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/modern#paper
Merfolk is a bad choice right now. It's the only Vial deck, so that's 160$ locked to one deck. Plus, all of the Lorwyn Merfolk would plummet in price if reprinted in Mm
I'm not seeing the combo there. You mean the exile? Wouldn't that just stop after 2 Felidars are artifacted because of Sahelli's 3 health (if you -2 twice?)?
Saheeli is blinked.
Design starts off by making the cards they think would be cool in the set.
Development takes the cards and puts them through their paces and tries to break the cards and/or balance them so they're great in limited. Then they consider how they work in other formats after that (Standard first, then likely Modern/Vintage/Commander all the same ratio).
The problem is that Development has this huge hard-on right now for making limited formats crazy and awesome and forgetting to balance correctly for Standard (the format MOST Magic players want to play at FNM).
Every time a permanent leaves and re-enters the battlefield, it is treated as if it was just cast (ie, counters go back to initial state). Saheeli comes back with her 3 loyalty to -2 again to complete the loop.
Counter magic backs up the combo so you need at LEAST two Shocks to get through it if you anticipate it coming, and if they drop the 1/4 early barely ANY removal can take care of it (Warping Wail can, Collective Defiance can hit 4, Grasp of Darkness)
charlequin
Banned
To be clear, it's not that it's a bad idea, but it's a lot more complicated to implement in a sensible way than just deciding to do it. The reason they're resistant to this approach is just how negatively it impacts all their marketing channels. For one, the PT and competitive play in general is a huge part of their set-to-set marketing and it relies on having a bunch of consistent high-end players over time. Most people playing for real PT success aren't going to skip seasons to help playtest unless you pay them equivalently, and if you have arbitrary pros getting the advantage of months-early knowledge you create huge resentment problems.
The other big issue is just leaks. We've seen the last couple years both how hard it already is to keep major leaks under wraps and exactly how destructive it is to get super-big, super-early leaks when they rely on the spoiler season -> pre-release -> release timing to drive hype. The last time they even gave finished sets to pros early it caused both of these problems -- the whole set leaked months early and people got mad that certain players were being unfairly favored.
Now, there's probably a way to set it up that avoids these problems, but it's definitely not as simple as "just call up some top pros for each set."
Nah, this is still less of a problem than at least half of the previous ban-generating Standard environments.
Yeah one of our lessons from Twin should've been about the problem with control decks being able to just poop out unanswerable instant wins with a decent draw.
Ah, okay. You play the Felidar, exile Saheeli. Comes back good as new, rinse repeat. If my understanding is right. Been a while since I've played.
charlequin
Banned
They call them "initial design" and "final design" now, which is a much more descriptive set of names. The initial design part involves coming up with the block concept, creating mechanics, doing a first draft of a card list, and a lot of playtesting to see what is and isn't fun and interesting to play with.
The final design team fleshes out the limited themes, costs cards, tests Standard, picks cards to push for constructed play, makes sure that cards exist for different kinds of players, thinks about how the sets interact with the other ones around them, and otherwise puts everything into final shape.
When a set has just bizarre ideas and unfun, incoherent mechanics (like Battle for Zendikar) that's generally a design mistake. When a set is either bland and characterless to the point of boredom or full of interactions that majorly warp the limited or Standard environment, that's a development mistake.
Correct.
Looking at the set as a whole, Revolt as a mechanic is pretty lame, and was clearly intended specifically for limited use. Granted, there are cards that can use the mechanic well to its advantage outside of the scope (Fatal Push) there just isn't any other cards you WANT to use outside of Hidden Stockpile and maybe Solemn Recruit.
I don't think you could be more wrong. Fatal Push, Vengeful Rebel, Greenwhell Liberator, Hidden Herbalists, Narnam Renegade, Hidden Stockpile, Renegade Rallier are all constructed playable. I'd argue that Revolt is one of the most pushed mechanics in a long ass time.
Of course if all standard becomes is combo vs marvel vs emrakul they might not see play, but the cards are very good.
CornBurrito
Member
So is this a bad time to get into Magic?
No, it's always a good time to get into Magic.
Depends on what kind of MTG you're playing.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I actually feel that Aether Revolt could lend some much needed diversity to Standard except lol at the white blinker and lol at the WG recurrence guy. Stop guys. Just stop
No. Obviously it depends on you local scene and the format you're interested in playing but a lot of local shops aren't full of optimized, top tier lists so even if you come in with a more casual brew you'll be able to have plenty of fun and accrue some wins. If you play Commander, Draft, Modern, or Pauper all the complaints you're hearing here are moot. So far this is a lot of screaming about a combination of cards that hasn't even been released into the Standard environment yet and hasn't had a chance to go through the rigors of a broader, live testing environment. With all of this whining the truth is that no one here knows what the Standard environment will look like in a few weeks when Aether Revolt is released so don't let it deter you if you're interested in playing Magic. Also, feel free to ask questions here.
I'm sure they'll see play, but will be any good or seen as good in pro eyes? Remains to be seen. My opinions are just that.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Legacy is eternal in the same way people consider dead authors to be immortalized.
Oh yes, it's not something they can do lightly or easily. As you say, they face additional hurdles other ccgs didn't face - there's more money behind the game, so a much greater incentive to leak stuff, or to buy up certain cards in advance to make a profit. But it could / should be done if they want to avoid this stuff.
In terms of marketing, as an aside, are the pro-tours really that effective as a marketing tool? I'm curious because the streams and commentary always seem so bad, and it doesn't get viewership figures anywhere near comparable to other big games and events.
Not entirely disagreeing with you, it may be a bit slower in the modern meta for the moment as well I suppose looking at the top lists.
Just depends on what he wants to build though, the only other thing that is relatively cheap is Tron. Gw is the current flavor and doesn't need groves which is nice. Again though a lot of that is all tied up in one deck.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The problem isn't diversity; its that all of the decks are unfun to play.
Playing against Saheeli combo is one of the least fun experiences I've had in a while. You can't even pressure your opponent because you have to constantly either have one of the shitty pieces of available removal ready or you have just accept that you could get combo'd out the next turn.
It's like playing Twin in a format where all of the removal is expensive and shitty.
Infinite Stars
Member
This just solidifies my idea that the current Development team at Wizards needs to be sacked. I'm beginning to think that KtK was a fluke in development, because that's the only set recently(RTR onwards?) that's been an A+ in limited and in Constructed.
Fire Stoddard, because the dude literally goes "We might have made X a little too strong" when it's obvious to anyone not in R&D.
Kaladesh is a fucking great plane that is saddled with a shit Standard.
I know it's bad, but the entirety of Development needs to either be fired or yelled at, because it's their fault that 90% of this shit happens. BFZ Sucked, but I'm fairly certain it wouldn't have been as bad if it wasn't the Gideon/Expedition Lottery.
D&T in Modern and Legacy play Vial, along with Slivers, Allies, and some other niche decks.
Modern was the most popular format by a long shot last year. It's not dying lol.
Why do they think this is okay to do in Standard? Really.
Infinite Stars
Member
Because Development only just got the idea that maybe having piss answers for busted cards was a dumb idea.
The 3 block rotation was why, they wanted to make sure cards would see play that features major mechanics. They just went to an insane extreme with the concept by taking away literally every safety valve.
Joe Molotov
Member
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Revolt is actually not that easy to activate in standard constructed if you don't build the entirety of your deck around it, especially not at instant speed and during your opponent's turn
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
If standard really becomes a shit show in reality we should change it to Please Understand for a short while.
Fatal Push is the only one that needs revolt on your opponent's turn though, and that is good even without revolt.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
True but there it's the most aggravating. You might have to hold back cracking a vessel/evolving wilds for turns just to be able to kill a Felidar Guardian and that's bad. On your own turn it's considerably easier but still not completely free
charlequin
Banned
It's never a bad time to get into casual Magic, usually not a bad time to get into drafting, and always a bad time to get into competitive constructed.
Revolt is a cousin of Morbid, it's clearly built to be workable in constructed because it's a bonus-effect mechanic that triggers off something that happens all the time (one of your permanents dying/bouncing.)
The Pro Tour is what sets the competitive metagame for a quarter and makes people aspire to be successful in tournament play. It's not as much that the direct video stream is good marketing as that it's the anchor of the organized play system that drives a large portion of sales.
While I'm not sure I buy this for everything before now, it's definitely a huge problem with the Cat Lady combo; one of the big problems with Twin was just that it wasn't satisfying to play and was miserable to lose against.
Part of his job is communicating to the public. Part of that is being circumspect. He's not going to say anything really strong until and unless the whole team has had a come-to-Jesus moment and decided to admit to a significant failing. Attributing the problems to him personally just because he's the guy they put out on the website is pretty silly.
If anything, this is a systemic problem. When there have been problematic individual designers or developers in the past, it was usually pretty obvious from their comments and their leads (like, it was hard to mistake that Tom LaPille had a very poor track record.) The issues they have now are borne out of inability to get external perspectives and consistently getting into trouble due to the way that different elements of the game scale differently from unpolished to fully refined.
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