Support NeoGAF

[Ashodin]

Spell Queller GET

go go Clue Production

8 Island
7 Plains
4 Port Town
4 Prairie Stream
2 Archangel Avacyn
3 Baral, Chief of Compliance
4 Bygone Bishop
3 Confirm Suspicions
4 Dovin Baan
4 Erdwal Illuminator
4 Mechanized Production
3 Metallic Rebuke
3 Reverse Engineer
4 Spell Queller
1 Tamiyo's Journal
2 Trail of Evidence

Sideboard:

3 Baral's Expertise
4 Disallow
4 Dispel
1 Fumigate
1 Planar Outburst

Still in editing phase. Want to use Dec in Stones. Can use it on my own creatures to trigger win con

 

[Santiako]

The issue with Goryo's was getting your bomb into the yard before you could reanimate it. Expertise+ Breaking and Entering is Mill 8 ontop of Reanimation without the "Exile EoT" clause.

It feels less fragile, because it's not just one swing with the card you reanimate.

It feels way more inconsitent though, since you have to have the expertise + break/enter + a target for the expertise. With goryo's all you need is a target in the graveyard and you win.

 

[Infinite Stars]

It feels way more inconsitent though, since you have to have the expertise + break/enter + a target for the expertise. With goryo's all you need is a target in the graveyard and you win.

Goryo's needs a target in the yard that can either kill your opponent(Blightsteel) or generate such advantage(Emrakul, Big G) that you win the game in one turn.

Also, the only decks that don't run creatures in Modern is Esper Draw Go, and that's already such a terrible matchup I can imagine.

They're both two card combos essentially, but I'd definitely put it up there in terms of stupid noninteractive stuff. I mean, your options for answering it while developing and progressing your win cons are minimal.

 

[Santiako]

Goryo's needs a target in the yard that can either kill your opponent(Blightsteel) or generate such advantage(Emrakul, Big G) that you win the game in one turn.

Also, the only decks that don't run creatures in Modern is Esper Draw Go, and that's already such a terrible matchup I can imagine.

They're both two card combos essentially, but I'd definitely put it up there in terms of stupid noninteractive stuff. I mean, your options for answering it while developing and progressing your win cons are minimal.

You can't Goryo a Blightsteel , you do Giselbrand and draw a lot and end up winning through Borborygmos.

Most decks run creatures (there are quite a bit more creature less or very light than Esper), but the expertise is relatively easy to make wiff (ravager, displacer, any burn piece, vines/blossoming defence, viscera seer, etc).

I'm not saying it's unplayable or anything, but I can't see it being a major player.

 

[Infinite Stars]

You can't Goryo a Blightsteel , you do Giselbrand and draw a lot and end up winning through Borborygmos.

Most decks run creatures (there is quite a bit more creature less or very light than Esper), but the expertise is relatively easy to make wiff (ravager, displacer, any burn piece, vines/blossoming defense, viscera seer, etc).

I'm not saying it's unplayable or anything, but I can't see it being a major player.

I keep on missing the Legendary clause on Goryo's, but there's also the Goryo's deck that cheats in Emrakul as opposed to flinging Lands.

Yeah, I don't see it being this pillar of the format, but it is frustrating how it's something Wizards missed/allowed

 

[Ashodin]

CONSTRUCT TRIBAL

It's actually... pretty strong?

4 Walking Ballista
4 Scrapheap Scrounger
4 Metallic Mimic
4 Chief of the Foundry
4 Metalwork Colossus
3 Reverse Engineer
4 Metallic Rebuke
2 Renegade Map
4 Warping Wail
4 Spatial Contortion
4 Spire of Industry
4 Aether Hub
4 Sea Gate Wreckage
9 Wastes
2 Island

 

[OnPoint]

Oh, Jeskai Saheeli won at SCG this week?

Weird, the deck seemed... real good?

Seemed like Jeskai was the entire top 4?

So it's 1-1 in big events right now.

We'll see how things shake out. When's the Pro Tour?

 

[Infinite Stars]

Oh, Jeskai Saheeli won at SCG this week?

Weird, the deck seemed... real good?

Seemed like it was the entire top 4?

So it's 1-1 in big events right now.

We'll see how things shake out. When's the Pro Tour?

This weekend, iirc. FEB 3-5. The issue I See with taking the Pro Tour as a snapshot is that pros tend to meta game around the very pro Tour. As in, "I shouldn't play X because it's going to be heavily played, so I'll play Y(which beats X)". Then there's next leveling, where everyone Assumes everyone will be on Y, so they go on Z, etc.

 

[Ashodin]

Oh, Jeskai Saheeli won at SCG this week?

Weird, the deck seemed... real good?

Seemed like Jeskai was the entire top 4?

So it's 1-1 in big events right now.

We'll see how things shake out. When's the Pro Tour?

Upcoming weekend. CATMAGEDDON

This weekend, iirc. FEB 3-5. The issue I See with taking the Pro Tour as a snapshot is that pros tend to meta game around the very pro Tour. As in, "I shouldn't play X because it's going to be heavily played, so I'll play Y(which beats X)". Then there's next leveling, where everyone Assumes everyone will be on Y, so they go on Z, etc.

Which is why the second ban judgment will take into account across everything including the PT.

But I agree with Angry Grimace: It keeps other decks down and makes BG Aggro the best to defeat it, making the meta real strange and warped.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Kid from my old LGS is on the pro tour now: https://mobile.twitter.com/magicprotour/status/825815314931724288/video/1

Kid loves magic, always salty as hell though.

 

[Santiako]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";229350104]Kid from my old LGS is on the pro tour now: https://mobile.twitter.com/magicprotour/status/825815314931724288/video/1

Kid loves magic, always salty as hell though.[/QUOTE]

Wow, really young.

 

[Joe Molotov]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";229350104]Kid loves magic, always salty as hell though.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like perfect Pro Tour material.

 

[Santiako]

On the last Making Magic Maro goes off again on saying Chaos Warp was a mistake. Ugh, let red do something good for a chance.

 

[Joe Molotov]

On the last Making Magic Maro goes off again on saying Chaos Warp was a mistake. Ugh, let red do something good for a chance.

If we all band together, maybe we can get through the horror of giving Red a card that can remove enchantments that's only been printed in a supplemental product.

 

[Violet_0]

when's the next ban announcement again? Not that I play standard anyway, but I figure that at some point they've got to admit they made an mistake when they missed the combo

 

[OnPoint]

If we all band together, maybe we can get through the horror of giving Red a card that can remove enchantments that's only been printed in a supplemental product.

No, it's an egregious offense that can never be forgiven. We will NEVER get through it. NEVER.

 

[Hero]

On the last Making Magic Maro goes off again on saying Chaos Warp was a mistake. Ugh, let red do something good for a chance.

I love MaRo but his seething hatred for Chaos Warp of all cards that 'break' the color pie this decade is something I can't see eye to eye on him.

 

[Joe Molotov]

I love MaRo but his seething hatred for Chaos Warp of all cards that 'break' the color pie this decade is something I can't see eye to eye on him.

Green can have Beast Within and Song of the Dryads, but Chaos Warp is just a hill too far.

 

[Hero]

Green can have Beast Within and Song of the Dryads, but Chaos Warp is just a hill too far.

Blue, white, and green can pretty much deal with any type of permanent freely and black has discard against artifacts/enchantments, but red? Nah, fuck red. You can't do shit against enchantments.

 

[OnPoint]

Green can have Beast Within and Song of the Dryads, but Chaos Warp is just a hill too far.

Actually I believe he views Beast Within and Song of the Dryads both as breaks.

 

[Hero]

Actually I believe he views Beast Within and Song of the Dryads both as breaks.

I agree that both of those are are breaks, but the difference and my issue with his stance is that Beast Within was printed in a standard legal set and is a legal card for Modern. Chaos Warp was throwing red Commander players a bone, a format MaRo admits he has no interest in and so in this case he just needs to be quiet.

 

[OnPoint]

I agree that both of those are are breaks, but the difference and my issue with his stance is that Beast Within was printed in a standard legal set and is a legal card for Modern. Chaos Warp was throwing red Commander players a bone, a format MaRo admits he has no interest in and so in this case he just needs to be quiet.

OK? I completely agree with you. I don't 100% understand why your fury is being directed my way in regards to aspects of the 'debate' I never remotely touched upon.

Calm down haha

 

[Hero]

OK? I completely agree with you. I don't 100% understand why your fury is being directed my way in regards to aspects of the 'debate' I never remotely touched upon.

Calm down haha

I'm not sure how you took any of that as fury towards you, I was just adding context for both of those cards.

 

[OnPoint]

I'm not sure how you took any of that as fury towards you, I was just adding context for both of those cards.

Oh I see. I read it too quickly.

He really does need to get off his high horse with this stuff. He comes off super tone deaf a lot of the time.

 

[Hero]

Oh I see. I read it too quickly.

He really does need to get off his high horse with this stuff. He comes off super tone deaf a lot of the time.

Haha, yeah, sorry, if any fury it's towards MaRo/WotC for just thinking it's perfectly acceptable for red to not have any type of answer to enchantments at all, in addition to it not even being the best color for artifact removal anymore.

I'm a big fan and defender of MaRo but this is the one thing I vehemently am against him with.

 

[OnPoint]

Haha, yeah, sorry, if any fury it's towards MaRo/WotC for just thinking it's perfectly acceptable for red to not have any type of answer to enchantments at all, in addition to it not even being the best color for artifact removal anymore.

I'm a big fan and defender of MaRo but this is the one thing I vehemently am against him with.

While I agree with protecting the color pie, he gets it 100% wrong sometimes. This is certainly one of those issues. Red needs some sort of indirect way to deal with enchantments, the way Black has discard. It could even be something simple like "target player discards two cards at random then draws two cards".

 

[Maledict]

My main issue is that Marco always takes the most objection to red and green cards that break the colour pie. Meanwhile, that perennial offender Blue, still gets stupid cards it shouldn't have because 'it's the colour of magic and trickery!'.

E.g. How on earth can he complain about Beasts Within, when Blue, the colour that isn't suppossed to have an answer to creatures once on the table, gets to destroy them using the same spell type?

I generally agree with him on the colour pie stuff, and do think it's something that should only be broken very rarely, but it feels a bit like he applies it more to some colours than others.

 

[charlequin]

On the last Making Magic Maro goes off again on saying Chaos Warp was a mistake. Ugh, let red do something good for a chance.

I mean he's hated the card since its inception. I do think he's right in a sense: Chaos Warp usually just destroys and doesn't give you anything back, which I agree is way out of red's pie and kind of cheating. But there's a midpoint here with a card that guarantees you something back but not necessarily what you got rid of that I think would be reasonable. The thing about red and enchantments is just the strongest remaining "well it just always worked this way" principle in the color pie at this point, it doesn't really make sense (and you see this in how hard it is for Maro to defend giving green one-sided fight while this rule stays in place) and is mostly in place due to inertia and stubbornness. At some point they'll give in and come up with some way they're okay with to solve this problem, we're just not there yet.

Anyway he specifically isn't in charge of the color pie anymore, there's a council for that, so his particular hobby horses aren't as relevant anymore.

My main issue is that Marco always takes the most objection to red and green cards that break the colour pie. Meanwhile, that perennial offender Blue, still gets stupid cards it shouldn't have because 'it's the colour of magic and trickery!'.

I think the automatic deference to blue has come a long way towards disappearing, they've been taking mechanics away from blue for years now and bringing the actual list of allowed abilities much closer to what it ought to be. But there's definitely a problem where red is the only color that's not allowed to solve its problems obliquely, and I think it's because they have a fundamentally impoverished idea of what red is that players have been trying to drag them away from kicking and screaming.

 

[Hero]

While I agree with protecting the color pie, he gets it 100% wrong sometimes. This is certainly one of those issues. Red needs some sort of indirect way to deal with enchantments, the way Black has discard. It could even be something simple like "target player discards two cards at random then draws two cards".

My main issue is that Marco always takes the most objection to red and green cards that break the colour pie. Meanwhile, that perennial offender Blue, still gets stupid cards it shouldn't have because 'it's the colour of magic and trickery!'.

E.g. How on earth can he complain about Beasts Within, when Blue, the colour that isn't suppossed to have an answer to creatures once on the table, gets to destroy them using the same spell type?

I generally agree with him on the colour pie stuff, and do think it's something that should only be broken very rarely, but it feels a bit like he applies it more to some colours than others.

Agree 100% with both of you. I hated the color blue when I first stared playing Magic because it literally had everything. Counter, card draw, bounce, direct damage even (Psionic Blast or whatever), it was just dumb. Red needs better ways to deal with stuff. Maybe it can't destroy enchantments but maybe make it so that you can ignore enchantments effects until EoT or whatever.

 

[Simply Sarah]

On the last Making Magic Maro goes off again on saying Chaos Warp was a mistake. Ugh, let red do something good for a chance.

See, he has a point on the fact that Chaos Warp can often not replace the destroyed card and that doesn't seem right at all. It should have worked like Polymorph in that regard. But yes, he's totally off base on the enchantment thing. Make it expensive, make it super rare, make it have major drawbacks, but an adjusted Chaos Warp type effect should not be a problem for red.

If we all band together, maybe we can get through the horror of giving Red a card that can remove enchantments that's only been printed in a supplemental product.

That's a no go. Banding hasn't been a thing for like two decades.

 

[bigkrev]

Apparently a LOT of people are trying to sell out of Magic Online right now. When I sold out in November, the going rate for tickets was $.96

Welcome, Ajani. May you be one of many to join the Gatewatch.

PLEASE STOP THE GATEWATCH I'M ALREADY SICK OF IT ONE YEAR LATER

I'm happy to say direct damage is back on the upswing and that Shock's return was meant as a sign that the pendulum is swinging in its direction.

Shock is one of the weakest tournament playable burn spells ever (i'd say Volcanic Hammer was actually the worst?), so GOOD JOB instilling confidence, especially when every creature you print is an X/3 these days

 

[OnPoint]

PLEASE STOP THE GATEWATCH I'M ALREADY SICK OF IT ONE YEAR LATER

I would love if Bolas shattered the Gatewatch for a couple of sets. Won't happen yet, it's too soon, and I do think they'll suffer an L, but it won't break them.

 

[bigkrev]

I would love if Bolas shattered the Gatewatch for a couple of sets. Won't happen yet, it's too soon, and I do think they'll suffer an L, but it won't break them.

No, cause then every set would be focused around the re-building of the Gatewatch. What we need is a Time Sprial-esque "Everything that has happened before this point is now dead and forgotten, we are moving ahead with an all new direction"

It's been 10 years- that's plenty long enough to reboot a universe. Have new Planeswalkers, but don't have them be the focal point of every set, let the new worlds be the stars

 

[red13th]

I hate the Gatewatch, you can only fit so many ridiculously pushed PW cards in a cube. I'm considering cutting KOTH ffs, and he was one of my favourite cards for a long time.
I also hate red being fucked over by the colour pie because red.

 

[Santiako]

No, cause then every set would be focused around the re-building of the Gatewatch. What we need is a Time Sprial-esque "Everything that has happened before this point is now dead and forgotten, we are moving ahead with an all new direction"

It's been 10 years- that's plenty long enough to reboot a universe. Have new Planeswalkers, but don't have them be the focal point of every set, let the new worlds be the stars

Yeah, we had plenty of good new characters in Kaladesh that should've carried the story (Dovin, Yasheeni, Rashmi, Oviya, Saheeli, Pia, etc), but all the focus was on the Gatewatch again, it's pretty lame.

 

[bigkrev]

Yeah, we had plenty of good new characters in Kaladesh that should've carried the story (Dovin, Yasheeni, Rashmi, Oviya, Saheeli, Pia, etc), but all the focus was on the Gatewatch again, it's pretty lame.

And no matter what Amohnkeht ends up being, i'm not really going to know jack shit about the world, because they won't have a giant PAX event built around hyping it, and none of the characters are going to mean anything cause it's just gonna be "WHA ELSPETH IS BACK! OMG! WHERE IS MY OATH OF ELSPETH CARD WIZARDS?!?!?!?"

I hate the Gatewatch, you can only fit so many ridiculously pushed PW cards in a cube. I'm considering cutting KOTH ffs, and he was one of my favourite cards for a long time.
I also hate red being fucked over by the colour pie because red.

The fact that we had Red win back-to-back Pro Tours a few years ago, resulting in R&D deciding to get rid of the only things Red is actually allowed to have at a constructed power level has basically made the color irrelevent for the last few years

 

[Ashodin]

Kaladesh has suffered because of the tight focus on Ghirapur. You get glimpses of the outside, but it's pretty terrible. I hope Vryn won't be so limited.

Amonkhet is likely to suffer because of the focus on the gods trial thing.

 

[SigmasonicX]

I'm fine with the Gatewatch. Giving more focus to the actual people of the plane doesn't require a drastic shift.

As for red, it's been doing fine as a support color.

 

[duxstar]

And no matter what Amohnkeht ends up being, i'm not really going to know jack shit about the world, because they won't have a giant PAX event built around hyping it, and none of the characters are going to mean anything cause it's just gonna be "WHA ELSPETH IS BACK! OMG! WHERE IS MY OATH OF ELSPETH CARD WIZARDS?!?!?!?"



The fact that we had Red win back-to-back Pro Tours a few years ago, resulting in R&D deciding to get rid of the only things Red is actually allowed to have at a constructed power level has basically made the color irrelevent for the last few years

I've said it before but red is too hard to balance harnessed lightning is killing 5/6s, and at 2R or RR would be unplayable. Chandra should be an Amazing card by all accounts , but first there was an unkillable 3/3 flier , and now there's a combo deck that makes tapping out turn 4 all but impossible.

Seriously fuck the combo

 

[OnPoint]

No, cause then every set would be focused around the re-building of the Gatewatch. What we need is a Time Sprial-esque "Everything that has happened before this point is now dead and forgotten, we are moving ahead with an all new direction"

It's been 10 years- that's plenty long enough to reboot a universe. Have new Planeswalkers, but don't have them be the focal point of every set, let the new worlds be the stars

Isn't the current line we're getting from them concerning The Gatewatch that they're popular and the story has never has more interest? Why would they do that if we're the minority?

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Kaladesh suffered because it got next to no exposition. People are probably more engaged in the story but I'd be surprised if they had any clue about the planes it's happening on.
The inventor's fair was a mistake, confining a revolution to happen in mere days with zero build up is weird.

Also fuck MaRo's opinion on Chaos Warp, Red offers next to nothing as a supportive colour in EDH as is.

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

Kaladesh/Aether Revolt really did waste it's setting and characters. Saheeli was the face of a set and did literally nothing.

 

[platypotamus]

The Expertise Cycle are a mistake in Modern.

Nothing beats Salt like losing to Zari Yev's Expertise free casting Breaking//Entering, and getting an Emrakul because I foolishly chose to tap out on Turn 2 when playing Delver.

It's like Twin, but with added levels of RNG/Stupid. Modern really could have used a Revolt counterspell.

Wait... you can use both sides of a fuse card in that situation?

 

[Hero]

So interestingly enough, I tweeted @Maro254 and got a response from him regarding Chaos Warp and red//color pie.

AllYouCanGeek ‏@allyoucangeek 4h4 hours ago

@maro254 Why do you hate Chaos Warp so much? It's one of the few spells red has to take care of certain cards in its entire card pool
1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
Mark Rosewater ‏@maro254 4h4 hours ago

@allyoucangeek Those are cards Red is supposed to have a problem with. #WotCStaff
1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
AllYouCanGeek ‏@allyoucangeek 4h4 hours ago

@maro254 I understand the explanation but no other color has such a glaring weakness for a card type as red does with enchantments.
1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes

Mark Rosewater Verified account
‏@maro254

@allyoucangeek The problem isn't that Red has a weakness but that the others don't. #WotCStaff


So maybe they're going to introduce weaknesses to the other colors?

 

[hermit7]

So interestingly enough, I tweeted @Maro254 and got a response from him regarding Chaos Warp and red//color pie.

AllYouCanGeek ‏@allyoucangeek 4h4 hours ago

@maro254 Why do you hate Chaos Warp so much? It's one of the few spells red has to take care of certain cards in its entire card pool
1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
Mark Rosewater ‏@maro254 4h4 hours ago

@allyoucangeek Those are cards Red is supposed to have a problem with. #WotCStaff
1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
AllYouCanGeek ‏@allyoucangeek 4h4 hours ago

@maro254 I understand the explanation but no other color has such a glaring weakness for a card type as red does with enchantments.
1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes

Mark Rosewater Verified account
‏@maro254

@allyoucangeek The problem isn't that Red has a weakness but that the others don't. #WotCStaff


So maybe they're going to introduce weaknesses to the other colors?

Seems a bit late for that all things considered.

Not like legacy or edh is going to care whether or not green can't suddenly destroy creatures considering they already have beast within. Even black has ways to deal with artifacts from the old days that mono black edh plays.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Wait... you can use both sides of a fuse card in that situation?

Yes, works the same with brain in the jar. CMC conditions are fulfilled by 1 of them and the wording allows shenanigans.
Another fun interaction with split cards is imprinting them on isochron scepter. If you can imprint one side you can choose to cast either when activating the scepter.

 

[red13th]

So maybe they're going to introduce weaknesses to the other colors?

Yes that is OBVIOUSLY a great solution regarding eternal and nonrotating formats. sigh

 

[bigkrev]

So maybe they're going to introduce weaknesses to the other colors?

Black also can't deal with Enchantments, and it used to have a weakness in that it couldn't kill Black creatures

Green used to not be able to deal with creatures, and they have done a good job of finding a way to address this in limited without it creeping into constructed (Fight)

White used to not have targeted outright creature removal, which they changed in 2007 when they printed Oblivion Ring

Blue's only real weakness is that it's a bad Aggro color, but they have messed up enough times (with Snapcaster and Delver) that you can run aggresive blue based decks

Red's weakness is that it can't deal with Enchantments- which since they stopped printing color hosers, has really only been an EDH issue. The main issue with red is that it's strenths are:
-Temporary Mana Accelleration: It doesn't seem possible to make this in a form that isn't either completely useless or completely broken
-Direct Damage: they have focused on making this significantly less flexable/weaker. While reprinting Bolt in M10 was probably a mistake, Lightning Strike is a perfectly fine base point for power level- 3 damage for 2 mana to anything at instant speed
-Aggressive creatures: they have given us some 1 mana 2/Xs in standard, but it turns out that the reason those decks worked was that it could use burn spells to deal the last points of damage once the opponents creatures outclassed it's own creatures

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Is the team behind the modo beta a bit dense? They are testing trading changes and when they do that they only give you 2 copies of each card. Except they give you 2 foil and non foil of each...

Has anyone tried captured by the consulate in a saheeli deck? Should protect the combo formidably.

 

[Yeef]

Yeah, we had plenty of good new characters in Kaladesh that should've carried the story (Dovin, Yasheeni, Rashmi, Oviya, Saheeli, Pia, etc), but all the focus was on the Gatewatch again, it's pretty lame.

By my count, there are currently 17 stories from Kaladesh block. Yahenni, Rashmi, Pia and Dovin each had two stories told from their perspective. Kari Zev has one from hers. That's about half of the stories from non-Gatewatch members (slightly more if you want to count Ajani's story).

The bigger problem, I think, is that the non-Gatewatch stuff tends to not make it onto the cards. That might be an issue of lead times though. They might just have the major story beats down when commissioning art and focus on the minor scenes too late to make putting them on cards viable.