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[SnakeswithLasers]

Guns can be used for target shooting something something Olympic event something something Awe Skeet Skeet.

In this thread, guns are just soccer balls that can fight crime!

 

[XenoRaven]

The fact that you think this is thread-worthy tells me that instances like this aren't too common.

If a fight gets broken up before it starts, how many people hear about it or are interested in it?

Maybe it's not so much these instances aren't common, it's just the fact that if nothing happens, no one reports it. Obviously there aren't stats to back this up, so it's all conjecture. But I don't think it's much of a leap to say this happens a lot more often than we hear about on the news, because when it does happen it doesn't get reported by the people involved.

 

[whytemyke]

Can't wait for more stories about planes successfully landing.

Seriously.

Isn't it more telling that we're actually discussing a story in which a gun wasn't used to murder someone? That it's such a rare occurrence that THIS is what we're talking about, rather than the countless times guns are used to maim people?

 

[Beerman462]

This is reminds me of the penthouse letters for gun nuts you find in gun magazines. When ever the subject of owning a gun comes up my co-workers point at the story and go see that's why I have a gun.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Seriously.

Isn't it more telling that we're actually discussing a story in which a gun wasn't used to murder someone? That it's such a rare occurrence that THIS is what we're talking about, rather than the countless times guns are used to maim people?

It's not that it's rare, it's talking about the type of self-defense use of a firearm, that is not studied or collected in anyway, and skews debate on the issue.

 

[LordCanti]

It seems like a lot of the places I go to now have those big "no concealed weapons" signs on their doors. What happens when you have a concealed weapon and you come across one of those? Do you leave the gun in the truck and then buy your groceries for instance?

I couldn't live like that. If I felt like I needed the thing in the first place, I'd be a nervous wreck without it for the ten minutes it's going to take for me to get my business done inside a place of business and then leave.

 

[XenoRaven]

It seems like a lot of the places I go to now have those big "no concealed weapons" signs on their doors. What happens when you have a concealed weapon and you come across one of those? Do you leave the gun in the truck and then buy your groceries for instance?

I couldn't live like that. If I felt like I needed the thing in the first place, I'd be a nervous wreck without it for the ten minutes it's going to take for me to get my business done inside a place of business and then leave.

Maybe you just don't have to conceal it anymore.

 

[echoshifting]

Everyone here has an agenda - why pretend not to?

So much negative connotations on the word "agenda", as if acting in pursuit of one's aims is a sin. "Agendas are only bad when they don't agree with mine". GAF is so ridiculous sometimes.

I don't even necessarily disagree with Manos, in fact. But I have a problem with either
a) Incident A proves point B (when in fact incident A is anecdotal and demonstrates nothing on a larger scale)
or
b) derailing threads with tangentially related agendas, which occurs quite frequently in gun violence threads, though this thread isn't an example of that. A better, recent example would be the tattoo thread (i.e., because this woman with a horrible tattoo got thrown out of an amusement park, people are anti-tattoo).

If you want to have an "agenda thread," if that's the word we're sticking to, just put one out there. Talk about the reactions people have to tattoos in its own thread...it's an interesting topic! And of course Manos is entitled to link this incident to an attempt to talk about the larger issue in his own thread...I just don't think it will be well received by those it is aimed at. Nobody is going to see this and reverse their opinion on gun control or concealed carry laws, because it's anecdotal.

It's not up to me to be a thread nanny, though, and that's not my intent with that post. I just don't think the story ultimately contributes much to the greater conversation on the issue. That said, his response to my post was fair and well reasoned.

 

[LordCanti]

Maybe you just don't have to conceal it anymore.

Generally speaking, the signs I see are just a big crossed out circle over a picture of a gun. They don't really differentiate between concealing and not concealing.

If you were making a "whip it out and see what reaction you get" joke, then I applaud you sir.

 

[Stet]

That's it. This proves it. I'm not sure what "it" is, though.

 

[RDreamer]

It seems like a lot of the places I go to now have those big "no concealed weapons" signs on their doors. What happens when you have a concealed weapon and you come across one of those? Do you leave the gun in the truck and then buy your groceries for instance?

I couldn't live like that. If I felt like I needed the thing in the first place, I'd be a nervous wreck without it for the ten minutes it's going to take for me to get my business done inside a place of business and then leave.

At the place I work at they can leave it up front in the office.

We absolutely have to ban guns where I work, too. We're a laser tag facility, and if someone were to accidentally drop their gun somewhere and a kid picked it up thinking it was a laser tag gun we'd be screwed... and the kid's target would, too.

 

[Deified Data]

"Don't talk about guns not killing people! The gun might change its mind..."

I swear the anti-conceal posters on this forum are getting to be almost as paranoid as the pro-conceal posters.

 

[Esch]

Hunting?

True, but the utility of that argument has decreased with... Stores.

 

[LordCanti]

At the place I work at they can leave it up front in the office.

We absolutely have to ban guns where I work, too. We're a laser tag facility, and if someone were to accidentally drop their gun somewhere and a kid picked it up thinking it was a laser tag gun we'd be screwed... and the kid's target would, too.

That seems like it would be the most awkward exchange imaginable. "Hi unknown stranger, here's my gun. Try not to shoot anyone with it."

 

[RDreamer]

Seriously.

Isn't it more telling that we're actually discussing a story in which a gun wasn't used to murder someone? That it's such a rare occurrence that THIS is what we're talking about, rather than the countless times guns are used to maim people?

You think it's a rare occurrence that a gun doesn't murder someone? Really?

I live in a state with heavy hunting and I know tons and tons of people with guns that have never been an instrument of murdering a person.

That seems like it would be the most awkward exchange imaginable. "Hi unknown stranger, here's my gun. Try not to shoot anyone with it."

Yeah, it probably would be pretty awkward, but the girls up front know why the person is handing it in and are cool with it. The scenario of someone dropping their gun absolutely terrifies everyone that works there, though, because our guns are very realistic, especially to a child. If one of them got a hold of a real handgun there's no doubt in my mind they'd use it.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Hunting?

Real men hunt with knives. Knives still win.

 

[Deified Data]

You think it's a rare occurrence that a gun doesn't murder someone? Really?

I live in a state with heavy hunting and I know tons and tons of people with guns that have never been an instrument of murdering a person.

Don't be naive. Every one of those guns is secretly contemplating murdering someone as we speak.

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

Interesting facts (you know, not anecdotal, but actual studies):

Men perceive other men with guns in their hands to be physically larger and more muscular than reality would suggest.

Men carrying guns are more likely to falsely assume that others are carrying weapons (as opposed to Skittles, or Arizona Iced Tea).

 

[xbhaskarx]

This is exactly why we need to ban all knives! Also pointy sticks.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Don't be naive. Every one of those guns is secretly contemplating murdering someone as we speak.

Lets not forget about sexually assaulting people too!

 

[Kinitari]

Guns still seem like much more trouble than they're worth.

 

[XenoRaven]

Interesting facts (you know, not anecdotal, but actual studies):

Men perceive other men with guns in their hands to be physically larger and more muscular than reality would suggest.

Men carrying guns are more likely to falsely assume that others are carrying weapons (as opposed to Skittles, or Arizona Iced Tea).

Honest question: Are you just posting facts you find interesting and relevant to the topic for the sake of discussion or is this a "ho ho what say you now gun supporters" thing?

Another honest question: Do you think we should completely ignore evidence that is impossible to measure with statistics but can be logically explained?

 

[Deified Data]

Guns still seem like much more trouble than they're worth.

They're no trouble either way unless you're an omnicidal hair-trigger.

 

[Dyno]

Nobody in the knife story was a six year old boy. It seems all the gun mis-fire stories have a six year old boy somewhere in the mix.

 

[XenoRaven]

Nobody in the knife story was a six year old boy. It seems all the gun mis-fire stories have a six year old boy somewhere in the mix.

Because "Poor Innocent Child Killed by Gun" sells more papers than "Idiot Shoots Himself." Unless the idiot is Plax Burress.

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

Honest question: Are you just posting facts you find interesting and relevant to the topic for the sake of discussion or is this a "ho ho what say you now gun supporters" thing?

Another honest question: Do you think we should completely ignore evidence that is impossible to measure with statistics but can be logically explained?

Honest answer 1: I think discussing facts and study based conclusions is more useful than discussing an anecdotal story. I was merely posing two study based conclusions about gun carrying, which is two more than the OP included.

Honest answer 2: I don't think that anyone on this board is the arbiter of what is common sense or logical, and what claims are impossible to measure statistically.

 

[RDreamer]

Don't be naive. Every one of those guns is secretly contemplating murdering someone as we speak.

Damn, I should really be afraid. I'm lucky I'm still alive considering how many hunters are in my family and how many people at my work place own guns for recreational shooting.

Guns still seem like much more trouble than they're worth.

Probably are, I suppose, but how in hell are you going to stop it now? It's a major hobby for millions and millions of people. You're not going to get rid of the things. Prohibiting them would go the same as prohibiting alcohol (which is probably also "more trouble than its worth").

 

[echoshifting]

omnicidal

Oh, I like this word. A lot. Thanks.

 

[Buddha Beam]

Yay for vigilantism! Movies have taught me that taking the law into ones own hands is perfectly acceptable.

 

[Seanspeed]

It's actually not uncommon, BUT if the person hand't stabbed people but threatened them with a knife and the same outcome occurred, you wouldn't be likely to hear about it. It's the occurrence of violence that generated the coverage. The lack of violence on the CCW is something that is not statistically collected or often give coverage.

Fair point.

I can see how it skews the debate somewhat, but its far from an argument ender. And I'm totally against anyone who extols the virtues of owning guns, let alone carrying them around in public. Sure, it works out when its just 'some' people that do it and have a sense of security knowing they have an advantage over most people, but the more people that start doing it, the more your advantage starts disappearing and it soon becomes a case of having to do it because everyone else has a gun but you and I do not wish to live in a world where everyone carries guns around. Of course my hypothetical situation is just hypothetical and not likely to ever come into being thank god, but its the logical conclusion of agreeing with gun proponents, isn't it?

 

[Plywood]

Never bring a knife to a gun fight.

Yeah, well:

 

[XenoRaven]

Honest answer 1: I think discussing facts and study based conclusions is more useful than discussing an anecdotal story. I was merely posing two study based conclusions about guns carrying, which is two more than the OP included.

Honest answer 2: I don't think that anyone on this board is the arbiter of what is common sense or logical, and what claims are impossible to measure statistically.

Fair enough. The snarky nature of most debates I see on here completely turns me off from posting in most threads. Like everyone is having a contest to show how much smarter they are than everyone who disagrees with them.

Point taken on number 1. I would like to see more statistics about crimes prevented by people carrying weapons, but I'm at work and can't really pull them and don't really know where to find stats like that that are reliable.

On number 2, would you say it's fair that at the very least, it is more likely for an incident not to be reported if it ends without any violence thereby making the numbers skewed in the favor of incidents that end in someone innocent being killed or injured?

 

[Deified Data]

Fair point.

I can see how it skews the debate somewhat, but its far from an argument ender. And I'm totally against anyone who extols the virtues of owning guns, let alone carrying them around in public. Sure, it works out when its just 'some' people that do it and have a sense of security knowing they have an advantage over most people, but the more people that start doing it, the more your advantage starts disappearing and it soon becomes a case of having to do it because everyone else has a gun but you and I do not wish to live in a world where everyone carries guns around. Of course my hypothetical situation is just hypothetical and not likely to ever come into being thank god, but its the logical conclusion of agreeing with gun proponents, isn't it?

I fear the endgame here.

Everyone buys a gun because they assume everyone else they meet is a Trailer Park Pete who's itching to fill 'em full of holes. We fear becoming that "innocent bystander gunned down in vigilante attack". So the rational arm themselves to protect themselves from the irrational, and lines start to blur.

 

[GaimeGuy]

If the stabber had a gun he would have been able to defend himself from the concealed carry holder.

 

[methane47]

A Small list Concealed Weapon Shoortings (There are 400 more in the link)
Note: This is only confirmed Concealed Weapon license holders in the past couple years. And Most Police stations do not release records of whether or not victims/assailants had the license. So most of these records are from Newspapers.

Date: March 10, 2009
People Killed: 11 (including shooter)
Circumstances: On March 10, 2009, Michael McLendon, a self-proclaimed survivalist, killed his mother at their family home, beginning a shooting rampage that stretched across 24 miles. .... he had shot four more relatives, including his 74-year-old grandmother, and five strangers, including the wife and 18-month-old daughter of a local sheriff’s Deputy. McLendon had a concealed handgun permit for two handguns.

Date: December 3, 2009
People Killed: 1
Law Enforcement Officers Killed: 1
Circumstances: On December 3, 2009, Bart Johnson shot and killed Pelham, Alabama, police officer Philip Davis during a routine traffic stop. Officer Davis had stopped Johnson for speeding. According to videotape ... Davis went to write Johnson a ticket. Upon his return, Johnson told Davis that his brother was a police officer. Officer Davis replied, “Why didn’t you tell me that before? Let me have his name and number so I can tell him what happened.” Then, “unprovoked and without a word, Johnson fired one shot, striking Davis in the face.” Johnson fled the scene, abandoned his Acura, and attempted to break into another vehicle. When he was noticed by someone, Johnson displayed his gun and waved the person away. He was later picked up by his brother and surrendered to authorities. A local pharmacist, Johnson obtained a concealed weapons permit in 2007 and renewed it in 2008 and 2009. He is charged with capital murder.

Date: June 2, 2011
People Killed: 6 (including shooter)
Circumstances: On June 2, 2011, Carey H. Dyess, 73, went on an hours-long shooting rampage in two communities, killing five before taking his own life. In Arizona legal gun owners can carry concealed handguns without a permit. From approximately five in the morning till approximately five and three quarters of an hour later when he was found dead from a self-inflicted gunshot wound, Dyess gunned down his fifth ex-wife, Theresa Lorraine Sigurdson, 61, her lawyer, and three of her friends. One additional victim was shot seven times and survived. In court filings Dyess had claimed that Sigurdson—from whom he was divorced in 2007 after arguments over money and their 10-acre property—and her friends had harassed him.

Date: September 15, 2010
People Killed: 1
Circumstances: On September 15, 2010, concealed handgun permit holder Solomon Davis allegedly shot and killed Timothy Lemont Prackett at the Steeple chase Apartments in West Memphis. According to news reports, witnesses said that Prackett was in an argument with several people over parking spaces. After the shooting, Prackett ran and then collapsed.

Date: January 19, 2010
People Killed: 2
Circumstances: On January 19, 2010, Richard Vithya Tauch allegedly shot and killed his ex-girlfriend Jenny Van Sor and her new boyfriend Wen Chao. The shooting occurred at the senior facility where Chao’s father lived. Tauch had a permit to carry a firearm as a security guard. Tauch was booked for investigation of the double murder and held in lieu of $1 million bail.

Date: December 18, 2009
People Killed: 1
Circumstances: On December 18, 2009, concealed handgun permit holder James Thomas Boll, 68, shot and killed Charles John Morrison, 48, his neighbor at the Mount Vista Mobile and RV Park. Boll fired at Morrison 15 times with a 45 caliber pistol, hitting him with 11 rounds. Aiming at his head and center of his body, Boll stopped to reload after firing his first eight shots, and continued shooting Morrison as he lay on the ground. Conflict between the two men had been building for months. Morrison had parked his trailer on a space formerly used by Boll, an “avid cat lover.” He soon found 30 to 40 cats frequently defecating around the trailer, having become accustomed to visiting it when Boll occupied the space. Morrison reportedly told Boll that he hated cats and would shoot them. Boll’s efforts to clean up around Morrison’s trailer led to an additional confrontation then Morrison accused Boll of spying on his girlfriend through a trailer window.

Date: January 2, 2012
People Killed: 1
Circumstances: On January 2, 2012, concealed carry permit holder Allana Carey, 35, allegedly shot and killed her boyfriend Edward Landry, 44, at the Carrier Motor Lodge motel in Newington. Carey pleaded “not guilty” to a charge of murder and claimed that she shot Landry in self-defense when he threatened her with a knife.

Date: February 12, 2012
People Killed: 1
Circumstances: On February 12, 2012, concealed handgun permit holder Moises Zambrana, 48, was showing his 9mm Ruger pistol to Dustin Bueller, 20, and another man after church services when the handgun accidently fired (Bueller was thinking of buying the model for himself when he turned 21). Although he “took precautions” in showing the gun to Bueller—going with Bueller into a closet in the church and removing the gun’s ammunition magazine—Zambrana left a round in the pistol’s chamber. The Ruger fired as he was explaining its safety features to Bueller, “sending a bullet through the wall and into the head of Hannah Kelley, 20, — Bueller’s girlfriend and daughter of the church’s pastor, Tim Kelley.” Hannah Kelley died the following Saturday. Zambrana, a licensed security officer, also served as security for the church’s events. Church member Tony Diehl told a reporter that after the shooting his father told him that he knew of three church “regulars” with concealed handgun permits. “I was kind of hoping it wasn’t going to be Moises,” Diehl added, “Why does this need to happen?”

Date: June 30, 2011
People Killed: 2
Circumstances: On June 30, 2011, concealed handgun permit holder Vishna Beepot, 26, got into an argument with Junior Lodge, 35, at the South Rock Lounge Bar and Grill in Lauderdale Lakes. When Beepot pulled out a gun, an unnamed security guard at the bar told him to drop his weapon. When Beepot refused, the security guard pulled his own weapon and both men fired. Ten people were shot and injured in the crossfire and Lodge and Beepot were killed. Broward Sheriff Al Lamberti told the press that given the small size of the bar and the number of customers in it at the time, “It’s a wonder more people didn’t die.” Beepot’s mother told the press that her son carried his gun for selfprotection. The security guard, who detectives stated may have fired his gun in selfdefense, was unhurt.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

A

The Violence Policy Center....really that's about as biased of a source you can get.

Nice try though.

[URL="http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/ccwtotalkilled.pdf"]A Small list Concealed Weapon Shoortings

(There are 400 more in the link)
Note: This is only confirmed Concealed Weapon license holders in the past couple years. And Most Police stations do not release records of whether or not victims/assailants had the license. So most of these records are from Newspapers.

So anecdotal evidence too and questionable inclusions.

Date: January 2, 2012
People Killed: 1
Circumstances: On January 2, 2012, concealed carry permit holder Allana Carey, 35, allegedly shot and killed her boyfriend Edward Landry, 44, at the Carrier Motor Lodge motel in Newington. Carey pleaded “not guilty” to a charge of murder and claimed that she shot Landry in self-defense when he threatened her with a knife

Well if he did than it was kind of justified.

 

[xbhaskarx]

This person had played knifey-gunney before...

 

[methane47]

The Violence Policy Center....really that's about as biased of a source you can get.

Nice try though.

Are you saying the cases aren't true?

 

[Shambles]

Lol @ people thinking that guns make you safe. Oh dear, time to force everyone to take a stats class in grade school.

 

[Kinitari]

Damn, I should really be afraid. I'm lucky I'm still alive considering how many hunters are in my family and how many people at my work place own guns for recreational shooting.



Probably are, I suppose, but how in hell are you going to stop it now? It's a major hobby for millions and millions of people. You're not going to get rid of the things. Prohibiting them would go the same as prohibiting alcohol (which is probably also "more trouble than its worth").

Well, after a previous gun thread on gaf, I did some research and I'm not crazy. Where I'm from guns are far from accepted, in facT....

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/ne...igma-drives-toronto-gun-hobbyists-underground

 

[GungHo]

By the way this is one of the dumbest posts I've ever seen on Neogaf.

Name any state that keeps statistics and I'll show that individuals with a concealed carry permit are far less likely than average to commit any type of crime.

Look, I say this as someone with said permit... the kind of people who are going to pay the licensing fees, submit their fingerprints, submit their photos, take the class, and send in the application in the first place are already people who care about obeying the law. If they didn't really care about obeying the law, they wouldn't do all that shit in the first place. You're hardly the first person to bring this up here or elsewhere, but this revelation doesn't have a lot of impact, and it just spurrs people on to find and accentuate all the exceptions.

It seems like a lot of the places I go to now have those big "no concealed weapons" signs on their doors. What happens when you have a concealed weapon and you come across one of those? Do you leave the gun in the truck and then buy your groceries for instance?

In my state, yes. If you're in a designated no-carry location, either due to the nature of the location or because they posted the correct signage, it's not legal for you to carry on the premesis. Personally, I think leaving a gun in a car is a great way to arm a thief, so I just wouldn't bring the pistol with me if I knew I was going somewhere like that in the first place.

Some guys here will raise shit with business owners for not posting the correct signage, because legally those businesses have no recourse against you unless they post the correct signs, but honestly... if they post "no guns", I respect their decision and may at that point choose to take my business elsewhere (especially if I was carrying for some reason... I usually don't).

Fry's used to never have the right signage up and some guys tried to cause a stink with them and then learned what "right to refuse service" meant -- and subsequently "criminal tresspass" when they thought that standing there to yell at the manager was a good idea. The correct signs were up the next day.

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

On number 2, would you say it's fair that at the very least, it is more likely for an incident not to be reported if it ends without any violence thereby making the numbers skewed in the favor of incidents that end in someone innocent being killed or injured?

I think that it is fair to assume that if a crime is going to happen, and the intended victim (or a bystander) shows a gun, then the crime probably won't take place. However, I also would think that the incident would be reported to police.

This may just be my own bias, but if someone is trying to rob me and some dude walks up and points a gun at the would-be mugger, who then runs off, I would call the cops. I think most people would do that as well, but maybe I'm just not desensitized enough to guns. Maybe other people think that someone pulling a gun in public is a common enough occurrence that it doesn't warrant police involvement. I don't agree, but I don't know.

However, my main stance is that I don't agree that more guns is the solution to anything. The reason that concealed carry works (as in the OPs story), is because both parties don't have access to a weapon. The more weapons that are put onto the streets, in the good guy's and the bad guy's hands, then the more escalation which will occur.

While in the short term, you might feel better because you're more likely to have a gun than the bad guy, in the long run, you're just inflating the gun numbers and forcing more criminals to get guns in order for them to engage in their enterprise.

Buying a gun does nothing to stop the number of criminals on the streets, it doesn't treat that, it just provides a temporary stopgap to the problem of crime.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Are you saying the cases aren't true?

One hasn't even gone to trial yet.

They are also being selectively presented by a known Anti-Gun group that wants to ban most guns in this country and has been known for making shit up to get media attention.

 

[Yoritomo]

Seriously.

Isn't it more telling that we're actually discussing a story in which a gun wasn't used to murder someone? That it's such a rare occurrence that THIS is what we're talking about, rather than the countless times guns are used to maim people?

How is it a rare occurrence? There are over 220 million guns in the US. Most of those guns haven't killed anyone.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Are you saying the cases aren't true?

Dude did you even read the stories? What does this have to do with concealed weapons laws? The first one they say they don't even know why, he was told he was getting a ticket and then shot the cop in the head, the second story is about a woman waiting for another woman who had a baby by her boyfriend. What does the legality of carrying a concealed weapon have to do with any of these stories? Maybe you should read what you post.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Dude did you even read the stories? What does this have to do with concealed weapons laws. The first one they say they don't even know why, he was told he was getting a ticket and then shot the cop in the head, the second story is about a woman waiting for another woman who had a baby by her boyfriend. What does the legality of carrying a concealed weapon have to do with any of these stories? Maybe you should read what you post.

Look at the source too.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Look at the source too.

I know the source sucks but the selective bolding for stories that are of just crazy people carrying guns doesn't change anything. Even if it was illegal/they don't have a permit it doesn't change anything. Making it illegal doesn't magically ever prevent it from being concealed on a person.

 

[Yoritomo]

Look, I say this as someone with said permit... the kind of people who are going to pay the licensing fees, submit their fingerprints, submit their photos, take the class, and send in the application in the first place are already people who care about obeying the law. If they didn't really care about obeying the law, they wouldn't do all that shit in the first place. You're hardly the first person to bring this up here or elsewhere, but this revelation doesn't have a lot of impact, and it just spurrs people on to find and accentuate all the exceptions.

I don''t care about anecdotes. When people blatantly lie and draw the picture that CHL holders are violent criminals just waiting for road rage to take out half a highway I enjoy calling them on their bullshit. There is far too much idiocy in the debate both for and against gun ownership.

Gun homicide vs overall homicide rates
Arrests vs convictions
Licensed vs unlicensed and illegal carry
Straw purchase vs purchase from an FFL holder

Every single aspect is twisted to conform to what the individual or think tank wants to show.

 

[methane47]

Dude did you even read the stories? What does this have to do with concealed weapons laws. The first one they say they don't even know why, he was told he was getting a ticket and then shot the cop in the head, the second story is about a woman waiting for another woman who had a baby by her boyfriend. What does the legality of carrying a concealed weapon have to do with any of these stories? Maybe you should read what you post.

People in this thread have been saying that Concealed Weapon holders are not violent. And you have to be homicidal to kill someone if you are a Concealed Weapon holder.

I placed just a couple stories there. Just to show how diverse the situations can be. And its not always criminals who act crazy and end up killing people. I even added a story about self defense.

So we have a
- Survivalist who went crazy and killed 11 people

- a Pharmicist who killed a police and then tried to Steal a car

- a 73 (SEVENTY THREE) year old man who went on a shooting spree and killed 6 people. Do you really feel safe knowing that a person who is decrepit has the ability to legally carry around a gun in his old (possibly senile) state and end your life with it? I would definitely be less threatened by a old person with a knife.

- A Guy who was upset he lost his PARKING SPACE

- A Security guard who killed his ex girl friend and her new Boyfriend?

- A Guy in a trailer park that was upset that his neighbors CATS where taking dumps on his Lot!!?!?

- A woman in self defense

- A Church member and security guard who shot his OWN GIRLFRIEND AND DAUGHTER OF THE PASTOR in an accident?!

- Two guys who decided to have a Shootout (One being a security guard) and managed to Injure 11 people in the process?

You see.. my intention was to show that many times, there is no criminal intent and sometimes there is. Fact of the matter is, You have NO IDEA what the state of mind someone has when you give them that license to carry a gun. Sometimes putting either themselves or Others in danger NEEDLESSLY.

When people blatantly lie and draw the picture that CHL holders are violent criminals just waiting for road rage to take out half a highway I enjoy calling them on their bullshit. There is far too much idiocy in the debate both for and against gun ownership.

See that right there, Defenders of Gun rights Seem to believe that its ONLY Criminals and Violent people that can end up hurting others with guns. See the SHORT list above. and you will see that ANY ONE, for WATEVER REASON, can end up hurting others. I do not think Anyone truly believes that everyone with a gun is a threat. What I do believe people think is that hurting someone whether intentional or not is SO much easier when you DO have access to a gun.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

People in this thread have been saying that Concealed Weapon holders are not violent. And you have to be homicidal to kill someone if you are a Concealed Weapon holder.

I placed just a couple stories there. Just to show how diverse the situations can be. And its not always criminals who act crazy and end up killing people. I even added a story about self defense.

So we have a
- Survivalist who went crazy and killed 11 people

- a Pharmicist who killed a police and then tried to Steal a car

- a 73 (SEVENTY THREE) year old man who went on a shooting spree and killed 6 people. Do you really feel safe knowing that a person who is decrepit has the ability to legally carry around a gun in his old (possibly senile) state and end your life with it? I would definitely be less threatened by a old person with a knife.

- A Guy who was upset he lost his PARKING SPACE

- A Security guard who killed his ex girl friend and her new Boyfriend?

- A Guy in a trailer park that was upset that his neighbors CATS where taking dumps on his Lot!!?!?

- A woman in self defense

- A Church member and security guard who shot his OWN GIRLFRIEND AND DAUGHTER OF THE PASTOR in an accident?!

- Two guys who decided to have a Shootout (One being a security guard) and managed to Injure 11 people in the process?

You see.. my intention was to show that many times, there is no criminal intent and sometimes there is. Fact of the matter is, You have NO IDEA what the state of mind someone has when you give them that license to carry a gun. Sometimes putting either themselves or Others in danger NEEDLESSLY.

See but it doesn't prove anything about concealed weapons and that's the point, your beef is with not having all guns being illegal which is a completely different matter.