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Man buys knife, stabs 2 at Salt Lake City store, stopped by Conceal Carry Holder...

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People in this thread have been saying that Concealed Weapon holders are not violent. And you have to be homicidal to kill someone if you are a Concealed Weapon holder.

I placed just a couple stories there. Just to show how diverse the situations can be. And its not always criminals who act crazy and end up killing people.

You used a highly biased sourced dedicated to banning gun ownership in the United States. You need to stop trying to hide that fact. Even adding "one self defense" is indicative of your trying to deligitimize self defense claims...which until it was pointed out that it was self defense you didn't acknowledge on your own.

See but it doesn't prove anything about concealed weapons and that's the point, your beef is with not having all guns being illegal which is a completely different matter.

Explains why he cited off a "report" from the VPC.
 

XenoRaven

Member
I think that it is fair to assume that if a crime is going to happen, and the intended victim (or a bystander) shows a gun, then the crime probably won't take place. However, I also would think that the incident would be reported to police.

This may just be my own bias, but if someone is trying to rob me and some dude walks up and points a gun at the would-be mugger, who then runs off, I would call the cops. I think most people would do that as well, but maybe I'm just not desensitized enough to guns. Maybe other people think that someone pulling a gun in public is a common enough occurrence that it doesn't warrant police involvement. I don't agree, but I don't know.

However, my main stance is that I don't agree that more guns is the solution to anything. The reason that concealed carry works (as in the OPs story), is because both parties don't have access to a weapon. The more weapons that are put onto the streets, in the good guy's and the bad guy's hands, then the more escalation which will occur.

While in the short term, you might feel better because you're more likely to have a gun than the bad guy, in the long run, you're just inflating the gun numbers and forcing more criminals to get guns in order for them to engage in their enterprise.

Buying a gun does nothing to stop the number of criminals on the streets, it doesn't treat that, it just provides a temporary stopgap to the problem of crime.
Did you grow up in a city, a suburb, or out in the country? I will tell you that in more rural areas, an incident is MUCH less likely to be reported. It is more likely it will be a story told to friends over a beer. I live in a more suburban area now, while I grew up in a very rural area. People were I live now are much more likely to contact the police for any little thing that happens. Where I grew up it was much more relaxed. As long as everyone was safe, it wasn't a big deal.

I agree that the advantage to owning a gun is somewhat lessened the more people start carrying them. I think the picture you paint for the future of gun-related crimes is certainly a sensible conclusion to come to. But isn't that also somewhat anecdotal? Could I also say that less people will commit crimes because they would be afraid of being shot?

Ultimately my position is that with an issue like this, where it's extremely difficult to determine the benefit of additional legislation, it's best to err on the side of minimal legislation. Until gun ownership because a huge, pressing issue, and we can demonstrate that banning them would be a huge benefit, I think we should allow people to carry guns if they want to.
 

Yoritomo

Member
You see.. my intention was to show that many times, there is no criminal intent and sometimes there is. Fact of the matter is, You have NO IDEA what the state of mind someone has when you give them that license to carry a gun. Sometimes putting either themselves or Others in danger NEEDLESSLY.



See that right there, Defenders of Gun rights Seem to believe that its ONLY Criminals and Violent people that can end up hurting others with guns. See the SHORT list above. and you will see that ANY ONE, for WATEVER REASON, can end up hurting others. I do not think Anyone truly believes that everyone with a gun is a threat. What I do believe people think is that hurting someone whether intentional or not is SO much easier when you DO have access to a gun.

Lay some stats down. The fact is that a concealed carry license holder is more than 10 times less likely to kill someone than your average american. This is taken on a per capita basis.

So let's say there are 5 homicides per 100,000 US citizens. That means there are 0.5 homicides per 100,000 conceal carry license holder... or 1 per 200,000.

Your assertions don't bear out in facts and statistics at all.
 

Binabik15

Member
He didn`t shoot him? I thought pulling your gun out is only okay with the intent to use deadly force for (self)defense and actually doing it, and that it`s considered brandishing otherwise?

Not trying to be snarky, I`m seriously wondering, because GAFfers told me before (in gun threads) that holding up your attacker is ilegal (because no real immediate danger if you just hold him up), shooting him is okay.
 
He didn`t shoot him? I thought pulling your gun out is only okay with the intent to use deadly force for (self)defense and actually doing it, and that it`s considered brandishing otherwise?

Not trying to be snarky, I`m seriously wondering, because GAFfers told me before (in gun threads) that holding up your attacker is ilegal (because no real immediate danger if you just hold him up), shooting him is okay.

I'm sure he did intend to use deadly force, he just didn't have to because the guy surrendered. If a guy is running around the store stabbing people, his belief that he and others are in danger is grounded in reasonableness. It's a perfectly legitimate use of the weapon.
 

Kinyou

Member
"(The bystander) was suspicious of what might be going on, and when he saw the stabbing, he just drew his pistol and challenged the individual," which caused the alleged attacker to lie down on the ground, said Salt Lake City Police Lt. Brian Purvis.
So you are allowed to draw your weapon without instantly shooting someone?

Edit: ah, I'm not the only one confused.

I'm sure he did intend to use deadly force, he just didn't have to because the guy surrendered. If a guy is running around the store stabbing people, his belief that he and others are in danger is grounded in reasonableness. It's a perfectly legitimate use of the weapon.
Yeah but I remember asking if it's okay to draw a weapon with the hope that it might scare the robber/thug away, and if I recall correctly, did everyone say that you're not allowed to do that.
 
Brandishing is whipping it out WITHOUT INTENT to use, it's like threatening
He had the intent, however technically a lawyer could TRY to get him on brandishing but no one will ever convict him of not having intent to shoot a guy stabbing people
You're taught to constantly re-evaluate the situation while your gun is out, if you pull the trigger and it's a dud, you clear it, but you dont immediately shoot them without thinking, you reevaluate, because seeing that he would have been shot if not for a tiny fluke might have caused him to surrender.
 
Yeah but I remember asking if it's okay to draw a weapon with the hope that it might scare the robber/thug away, and if I recall correctly, did everyone say that you're not allowed to do that.

He wasn't attempting to just scare the guy, though, if he fully intended to shoot him. That's the difference. The guy dropped the knife so he simply didn't have to do it. He doesn't have to shoot him to prove intent.
 

Arcteryx

Member
He didn`t shoot him? I thought pulling your gun out is only okay with the intent to use deadly force for (self)defense and actually doing it, and that it`s considered brandishing otherwise?

Not trying to be snarky, I`m seriously wondering, because GAFfers told me before (in gun threads) that holding up your attacker is ilegal (because no real immediate danger if you just hold him up), shooting him is okay.

No. You're confusing brandishing (for intimidation) with stopping someone from committing/further committing a crime.
 

Binabik15

Member
I'm sure he did intend to use deadly force, he just didn't have to because the guy surrendered. If a guy is running around the store stabbing people, his belief that he and others are in danger is grounded in reasonableness. It's a perfectly legitimate use of the weapon.

Oh, I understand that that was the case here, but if this is possible, I don't understand why people ridiculed me or told me that it was just not possible when I proposed that instead of shooting someone dead you're supposed to announce that you have a gun and will use it unless the person stops acting threatening and holding him up where I live, unless the situation really calls for split second shooting to prevent harm. I was told that holding someone up would be brandishing, because the danger was not immediate enugh to require instant shooting.


He wasn't attempting to just scare the guy, though, if he fully intended to shoot him. That's the difference. The guy dropped the knife so he simply didn't have to do it. He doesn't have to shoot him to prove intent.


Huh? Of course you should be willing to use your gun if you pull it, even if you hope you don't have to. Why`d you pull it otherwise, to smack the guy? I don't really see the difference.

I come from a couple of semesters of studying German law, I guess our systems are just that different.
 

XenoRaven

Member
See that right there, Defenders of Gun rights Seem to believe that its ONLY Criminals and Violent people that can end up hurting others with guns. See the SHORT list above. and you will see that ANY ONE, for WATEVER REASON, can end up hurting others. I do not think Anyone truly believes that everyone with a gun is a threat. What I do believe people think is that hurting someone whether intentional or not is SO much easier when you DO have access to a gun.
I'd be surprised if anyone actually thinks that. I would say they either a) believe that the number of lives saved or crimes prevented would be greater than the number of incidents like the ones you posted or b) believe they have the right to protect themselves, in a manner they deem appropriate regardless of the statistics.
 
Oh, I understand that that was the case here, but if this is possible, I don't understand why people ridiculed me or told me that it was just not possible when I proposed that instead of shooting someone dead you're supposed to announce that you have a gun and will use it unless the person stops acting threatening and holding him up where I live, unless the situation really calls for split second shooting to prevent harm. I was told that holding someone up would be brandishing, because the danger was not immediate enugh to require instant shooting.

Can you be more specific? I wasn't privy to whatever you are referencing, so I can't speak to specific discussions.

There is an important distinction between brandishing and intent to kill.
 

Yoritomo

Member
So you are allowed to draw your weapon without instantly shooting someone?

Edit: ah, I'm not the only one confused.


Yeah but I remember asking if it's okay to draw a weapon with the hope that it might scare the robber/thug away, and if I recall correctly, did everyone say that you're not allowed to do that.

Unless it's a situation that would justify also shooting the individual it could be seen as brandishing and you'd get in some trouble. CCW licensed individuals are not police, do not have any legal authority, and can't just point guns at individuals to intimidate without harsh consequences. If there's a felony in progress or your life is in imminent danger then you might be legally justified in shooting an individual. This man in the store could have pulled his weapon and immediately fired and most likely would never have been charged with anything. That's the problem with guns. If you miss or hit, everything behind your target is also in danger. If you're in a crowded store and a guy is going nuts with a knife opening fire is probably a very bad idea, whereas just pulling and threatening could have a decent outcome.
 
Another question: what would have happened if the dude actually did shoot the stabber?

Pardon my redirection, but what do you think would be different? Aside from the homicidal maniac being dead instead of incarcerated.

I mean, there are plenty of tragic scenarios which could have played out if he had done that, but you're painting in broad strokes, here.
 

GungHo

Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
So you are allowed to draw your weapon without instantly shooting someone?

Edit: ah, I'm not the only one confused.

Yeah but I remember asking if it's okay to draw a weapon with the hope that it might scare the robber/thug away, and if I recall correctly, did everyone say that you're not allowed to do that.
Obligatory "in my state":
If he pulls the gun and the presence of the gun stops attack in progress or an immenent attack (i.e. guy with knife in his hand clearly about to go stab someone), it's not brandishing.

If he pulled the gun to stop what he thought might eventually become an attack (i.e. people saying "fuck you" "no, fuck you" "your momma's ugly" "what did you say about my momma?!?"), it's brandishing.

Honestly, it really depends on the law in Utah. Different states have different definitions of what's considered brandishing and how brandishing is prosecuted.

Oh, I understand that that was the case here, but if this is possible, I don't understand why people ridiculed me or told me that it was just not possible when I proposed that instead of shooting someone dead you're supposed to announce that you have a gun and will use it unless the person stops acting threatening and holding him up where I live, unless the situation really calls for split second shooting to prevent harm. I was told that holding someone up would be brandishing, because the danger was not immediate enugh to require instant shooting.
I don't remember every thread, but I do remember someone talking about just "showing" a gun in a window just to get someone else to back off. There was no intent to shoot. That's brandishing.
 

Seanspeed

Banned
Pardon my redirection, but what do you think would be different? Aside from the homicidal maniac being dead instead of incarcerated.

I mean, there are plenty of tragic scenarios which could have played out if he had done that, but you're painting in broad strokes, here.
Painting in broad strokes? What are you talking about?

I just asked a question. And I'm asking about legal ramifications, not moral implications or anything.
 

jj350

Banned
Fact: the only thing that outlawing guns will accomplish is taking guns out of the hands of honest citizens, rendering them defenseless, while dishonest lowlife criminals are completely unaffected. In fact, it is only a good thing for criminals, since they won't have to worry about running into someone who can actually defend themselves while they commit their crimes.

Gun control fanatics always seem to ignore the simple fact that criminals don't care about the law, so outlawing something will have absolutely no effect on criminals, it only effects honest citizens. There will always be a black market for anything that is illegalized, so criminals will always be able to purchase illegal firearms no matter what happens to the law.

Thinking that illegalizing firearms will prevent criminals from performing crimes is like believing illegalizing alcohol will prevent people from getting drunk... I think we all learned the hard way from prohibition what happens when you think that way.
 

alphaNoid

Banned
This thread went south fast. Its a genuine good news story and it didn't even take 1 page for anit gun crowd to show up with their agenda.

Fact: the only thing that outlawing guns will accomplish is taking guns out of the hands of honest citizens, rendering them defenseless, while dishonest lowlife criminals are completely unaffected. In fact, it is only a good thing for criminals, since they won't have to worry about running into someone who can actually defend themselves while they commit their crimes.

Gun control fanatics always seem to ignore the simple fact that criminals don't care about the law, so outlawing something will have absolutely no effect on criminals, it only effects honest citizens. There will always be a black market for anything that is illegalized, so criminals will always be able to purchase illegal firearms no matter what happens to the law.

Thinking that illegalizing firearms will prevent criminals from performing crimes is like believing illegalizing alcohol will prevent people from getting drunk... I think we all learned the hard way from prohibition what happens when you think that way.

Pretty much this, but you see .. people are blinded by political agendas and common sense goes out the window.
 
Painting in broad strokes? What are you talking about?

I just asked a question. And I'm asking about legal ramifications, not moral implications or anything.

My mistake...sorry! I thought you were implying that firing the gun could have potentially dangerous consequences for everyone, innocent bystanders included (which is true). I wasn't aware you were asking about the legality...in which case I wouldn't have commented, because I have no idea. It varies so much state to state.
 
Fact: the only thing that outlawing guns will accomplish is taking guns out of the hands of honest citizens, rendering them defenseless, while dishonest lowlife criminals are completely unaffected. In fact, it is only a good thing for criminals, since they won't have to worry about running into someone who can actually defend themselves while they commit their crimes..

Yep . . . that is exactly why Britain is completely over-run with gun violence.
 
My biggest issue with concealed wielding vigilantes is that I don't want some random asshole who thinks he's fucking Rambo step up, escalate a situation that doesn't call for it, and get me fucking killed.

Yeah, good stories happen once in a while, but that still doesn't mean its a good idea. Simply put, I don't trust random people with guns who are not trained to use them under dire situations to use them to protect me. I feel that I have much greater chance of being shot by them by accident than being saved.


Fact: the only thing that outlawing guns will accomplish is taking guns out of the hands of honest citizens, rendering them defenseless, while dishonest lowlife criminals are completely unaffected. In fact, it is only a good thing for criminals, since they won't have to worry about running into someone who can actually defend themselves while they commit their crimes.

Gun control fanatics always seem to ignore the simple fact that criminals don't care about the law, so outlawing something will have absolutely no effect on criminals, it only effects honest citizens. There will always be a black market for anything that is illegalized, so criminals will always be able to purchase illegal firearms no matter what happens to the law.

Thinking that illegalizing firearms will prevent criminals from performing crimes is like believing illegalizing alcohol will prevent people from getting drunk... I think we all learned the hard way from prohibition what happens when you think that way.
Illegalizing firearms isn't meant to prevent criminals from committing crime, it's to prevent regular ass people from killing other regular ass people. The danger of legalized firearms isn't that criminals can use them to hurt people, it's that completely normal people, put under very bad situations, mixed with the convenience and availability of firearms, will use them to hurt other normal people intentionally or unintentionally.

Most of the worst gun stories aren't of criminals killing people, it's of completely normal people who are too stupid to use a gun accidentally create a situation where they or someone else gets shot. How many stories have we heard of families, friends or neighbours shooting each other after a heated debate because they had a gun and the emotions just took over and caused them to pull the trigger? How many stories have we heard of kids shooting themselves or bringing guns to school because their parents were too fucking stupid to figure out how to lock up their guns, but were apparently deemed capable enough by the state to own a goddamn firearm.

I'm actually fine with legal firearms, but there needs to be a MUCH more stringent requirement to getting one, because honestly, I feel like the majority of people who own a gun are too stupid to be trusted with one.
 
Yep . . . that is exactly why Britain is completely over-run with gun violence.

Actually overall violence increased after the 1998 ban on handguns in England and so did Gun Violence.

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.0/Gun-Facts-v6.0-print.pdf
Pg 62 (in a PDF viewer) Pg53 on the doc itself. Now this is something put together to refute Anti-Gun claims. I am not going to try and hide or obscure that (like others do). I also don't think every counter-argument given in other areas are compelling or definitive. However, every claim is cited to a source. In this case these are stats taken from the UK Home Office, and therefore (while potentially under-reported or miss classified, like stabbings in England) are not going to give an overestimation of crime and can be assumed to not be pushing an type of pro-gun agenda.

Illegalizing firearms isn't meant to prevent criminals from committing crime, it's to prevent regular ass people from killing other regular ass people. The danger of legalized firearms isn't that criminals can use them to hurt people, it's that completely normal people, put under very bad situations, mixed with the convenience and availability of firearms, will use them to hurt other normal people intentionally or unintentionally.

You've just summed up the fatal flaws of gun control.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Actually overall violence increased after the 1998 ban on handguns in England and so did Gun Violence.

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.0/Gun-Facts-v6.0-print.pdf
Pg 62 (in a PDF viewer) Pg53 on the doc itself. Now this is something put together to refute Anti-Gun claims. I am not going to try and hide or obscure that (like others do). I also don't think every counter-argument given in other areas are compelling or definitive. However, every claim is cited to a source. In this case these are stats taken from the UK Home Office, and therefore (while potentially under-reported or miss classified, like stabbings in England) are not going to give an overestimation of crime and can be assumed to not be pushing an type of pro-gun agenda.



You've just summed up the fatal flaws of gun control.

I thought citing sources with an obvious political agenda was a no-no.
 

ultron87

Member
Yeah, well:

suwWx.jpg

"Fwocka" is a really great sound for a gun to make.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
...but Britain has no shortage of problem these days. Poor example.

What has this even got to do with it?

This is a flabbergasting change of subject.

Actually overall violence increased after the 1998 ban on handguns in England and so did Gun Violence.

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.0/Gun-Facts-v6.0-print.pdf
Pg 62 (in a PDF viewer) Pg53 on the doc itself. Now this is something put together to refute Anti-Gun claims. I am not going to try and hide or obscure that (like others do). I also don't think every counter-argument given in other areas are compelling or definitive. However, every claim is cited to a source. In this case these are stats taken from the UK Home Office, and therefore (while potentially under-reported or miss classified, like stabbings in England) are not going to give an overestimation of crime and can be assumed to not be pushing an type of pro-gun agenda.

Do you even know anything about gun control in the UK? Do you really think that we had something like an American gun license system before 1998?

We had (very) strict gun control before 1998, and because of a number of high profile killings by people with gun licenses, a lot of guns were banned.
 

jj350

Banned
Illegalizing firearms isn't meant to prevent criminals from committing crime, it's to prevent regular ass people from killing other regular ass people. The danger of legalized firearms isn't that criminals can use them to hurt people, it's that completely normal people, put under very bad situations, mixed with the convenience and availability of firearms, will use them to hurt other normal people intentionally or unintentionally.

Most of the worst gun stories aren't of criminals killing people, it's of completely normal people who are too stupid to use a gun accidentally create a situation where they or someone else gets shot. How many stories have we heard of families, friends or neighbours shooting each other after a heated debate because they had a gun and the emotions just took over and caused them to pull the trigger? How many stories have we heard of kids shooting themselves or bringing guns to school because their parents were too fucking stupid to figure out how to lock up their guns, but were apparently deemed capable enough by the state to own a goddamn firearm.

I'm actually fine with legal firearms, but there needs to be a MUCH more stringent requirement to getting one, because honestly, I feel like the majority of people who own a gun are too stupid to be trusted with one.

I think you are forgetting or simply dancing around the fact that every criminal was at one point in the group of "regular ass people." The main thing that separates a criminal from a regular ass person is their willingness to perform criminal activities as well as a general lack of empathy.

Having a gun is a big responsibility, and a lot of people shouldn't have one, but honestly thinking the world will be a better place if the guns are illegalized is to utilize flawed logic while completely ignoring history.

You know what they say about people who ignore history... they are doomed to repeat it.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
I wasn't citing him.

Yes you were. He cites to some report but it's not clear what the actual source says, or if he made the graph himself. Who knows if he's fairly representing the source given his obvious agenda? Poor choice on your part. You should find neutral sources lest people think you're also pushing some kind of agenda.
 
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