Ghost_Protocol
Member
QFT. Guess we should give everybody guns now.
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Man buys knife, stabs 2 at Salt Lake City store, stopped by Conceal Carry Holder...
- Thread starter Manos: The Hans of Fate
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QFT. Guess we should give everybody guns now.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Those are illegal guns since they were stolen and not acquired legally.
IISANDERII
Member
Only because the quote serves to understate the destructiveness and lethality of firearms.
speculawyer
Member
We need more guns. That way we can be safe like Somalia.
CrazedArabMan
Member
I don't know what you are talking about, I can't walk down the road without being scared a shootout will take place in front of me /sarcasm.
The way I see it with the gun argument now a days is that you have people who will continually call for a ban on guns or concealed carry, etc... The truth is is that they will most likely not change their opinion and neither will those who support guns. As much as people want to complain, guns will continue to be a part of American society and there is absolutely nothing that will change that for a very long time or even forever (doing so would be a death sentence politically and culturally). Guns are a huge part of American culture, something that I'm very proud of. Sorry but guns are here to stay, and I happily will continue to go shoot as it is extremely fun and something that I enjoy doing, and if you don't like it, there really is very little you can do that will make any major changes to American gun policy. There is also the argument of those that want to ban them or don't like them, have never fired nor were raised with them in their life (ie: hunting or recreation shooting) now I know that doesn't apply to everyone, I just mean that it is a factor to the anti-gun argument at times.
reggieandTFE
Member
How did you walk around in public before getting a gun, with a flak jacket and a football helmet? You are insanely terrified of the world.
Mammoth Jones
Member
Stop making sense, you!
methane47
Member
lol Wat?
the Guns are illegal, because they were stolen from Legal Owners of guns.
Or placed another way, there would be less illegal guns used in crimes if there were no guns to be stolen.
That makes no sense.
The guns come from somewhere. By Virtue of people losing guns to criminals there are MORE criminal uses of guns.
I'm not claiming anything. Unless you're referring to my hypothetical factory worker. Then ok. Either way, the point is that these crime reduction measures you're talking about cost money. That money comes out of the factory worker's check and it's money that he believes will go into the pockets of people who aren't hard at work like he is. He doesn't want that any more than he wants a burglar to break into his house.
Imagine what the gun debate would be like if there were no constitutional guarantee.
So what was the point of your post? You were clearly trying to make it sound that since you cleaned your shotgun and didn't kill anybody and because you dont have homicidal tendencies, that these are somehow justifications for your gun ownership. How else was somebody supposed to interpret your post?
2nd amendment argument is much better, definitely.
And I dont see anybody saying that everybody or even a large percentage of gun owners are homicidal maniacs. You're massively exaggerating the 'stance' of anti-gun proponents and destracting from the fact that gun crime in the United States is a huge problem.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Those guns are illegal as they were stolen or acquired illegally to compare criminal use and lawful use as if they were the same is wrong.
methane47
Member
Huh what?
Do you not see the relation between Legal guns that were stolen and stolen guns used in Crimes?
empty vessel
Member
If he does not want to use resources socially to address his concern about being victimized by violence, then that is just another way of saying that his concern really is not a high priority, which is another way of saying it rings hollow. If he isn't even that concerned, then he hardly has a good argument that the rest of us should let him carry a concealed weapon on him around the rest of us. You see how this works? The factory worker may not both have and eat his cake.
None of this, again, is a substantive argument against concealed carry laws. It is an argument that if one supports them, then one must also support reducing violent crime by advocating effective social welfare policy lest one look like a hypocrite.
Mammoth Jones
Member
Reading comprehension definitely helps interpret things...such and...words...and stuff....
But my point was that people are talking like every god damn gun in America is a fucking nuclear bomb reading to explode and kill everyone. And it's not. There's a fuck ton of responsible gun owners that don't go around murdering people. I own a gun. Since I've owned one I've had verbal fights, nearly a fist fight, arguments, stress, and all that shit yet I've never ever considered "gettin' mah gun and showing that mofo how I get down!". So my point is there's millions of gun owners in America. The vast majority of which don't run around poppin caps. Just a little perspective would be nice....just sayin'....
The insinuation that even a law abiding citizen with a gun is a ticking time bomb is right there....but whatever...we're getting into semantics if you're not interpreting what I am blah blah blah...
Crime is a problem in the US because poverty is a problem. Education is a problem. Greed is a problem. Fix those and guns or no guns the crime level will drop. (hasn't crime BEEN dropping in the US for some time....?)
I get what you're saying. I just disagree.
methane47
Member
What is the purpose for your gun ownership?
You made a poor post and I pointed it out. Lets not skirt around that now.
Nope, nobody is saying anything remotely close to that, sorry.
Not just crime being a problem, but gun crime specifically. And yes, poverty plays a part, but the US isn't exactly a third-world country. Most every other countries with similar poverty rates dont have anything close to our gun crime rates.
adamsappel
Member
I would assume Japan's suicide rate would be even higher if they had more access to firearms. Guns don't cause suicide, nobody claims that, but it makes it much easier to be successful at it. Do you not acknowledge that suicide-by-gun is pretty effective, and assumed to be quick and painless? It is a lot harder psychologically to slit your throat or wrists, jump from a building, hang yourself, etc., than to pull a trigger.
Mammoth Jones
Member
Mammoth Jones
Member
My post was fine. You didn't like it. Learn to cope.
It was heavily insinuated. But regardless....
The point is fixing those things will lead to a far greater reduction in crime compared to the emotionalism of "Ban all the bad things!"
IMACOMPUTA
Member
I think I am FOR CC.
But I live in IL (non-cc state).
My one argument against Concealed carry is this :
If someone robs you at gunpoint, most of the time they will not shoot if you just give them what they want.
BUT -- if they thought you were packing, wouldn't they be more likely to shoot first and then steal your shit? Meaning less survivors of armed robbery?
But I live in IL (non-cc state).
My one argument against Concealed carry is this :
If someone robs you at gunpoint, most of the time they will not shoot if you just give them what they want.
BUT -- if they thought you were packing, wouldn't they be more likely to shoot first and then steal your shit? Meaning less survivors of armed robbery?
outunderthestars
Banned
Good to see anti-gun GAF piling on the OP as usual.
I am not a fan of guns, but appreciate people who are willing to go through the training and certification to CC in a responsible and safe manner.
I might be required to start carrying a weapon next year for work. Not super thrilled about it, but if I can use my weapon like the person in this situation did it will worth the stress...
I am not a fan of guns, but appreciate people who are willing to go through the training and certification to CC in a responsible and safe manner.
I might be required to start carrying a weapon next year for work. Not super thrilled about it, but if I can use my weapon like the person in this situation did it will worth the stress...
IISANDERII
Member
There are 70 million American citizens who might disagree with you.
I didn't like it because it contained two very poor arguments. I coped with it by responding.
No, it wasn't! lol Not even close. Its a blatant strawman.
Fixing these things will help dramatically, sure, but the fact that we're so much worse than other similar countries definitely shows that there's much more to it than that. Additionally, it doesn't help that the people most dedicated to welfare reform and education and whatnot aren't the 2nd-amendment waving, gun-toting right-wing conservatives, ya know? I'm not saying that all Republicans are like this or that you cant have left-wingers who love the 2nd amendment as well, but the generalization works enough for it to be a valid concern.
People were discussing Japan and their high suicide rate, and I believe thats largely a cultural thing. They tend to put a lot of emphasis and pressure to accomplish something and when they're out of jobs and whatnot, there's a lot of stress and shame that follow. They are also a pretty strong-willed people compared to your average American. Anyways, my point is that I think the culture here in the US contributes a lot to the gun problem. We're a very 'guns, fuck yea' sort of country and we have by far the most amount of guns per capita. So basically, we have a LOT of guns around, which makes it much easier and cheaper for criminals to get their hands on one. I know I could illegally obtain a gun pretty easily if I wanted to. So yea, crime will exist one way or another, but give these criminals easy access to guns and you're making the situation far more problematic.
nVidiot_Whore
Banned
I'm fine with C&C permits.. but hope that if I was in any other situation than someone actually violently attacking people the C&C types wouldn't try to go Rambo on anyone.
Seems like most are pretty damn reasonable; not hearing of bank robberies gone bad or anything.. pretty much ever.
I know or have known quite a few people in my day who carry. I'd say 75% of them don't concern me at all, but I've known a few that I wouldn't trust anywhere near a crime happening. They carried over some fantasy of gunning down criminals.. not sure they'd actually go through with it if a situation faced them, but wouldn't put it past them either.
I've been robbed at gunpoint before myself. Still don't have a desire to carry. It really wouldn't have helped me, and I do have a bit of a temper problem. Could have ended up shooting them when they ran.
Other than that, I think conceptually a lot of "pro gun" types are just.. off base.. we should address root causes of crime, not arm more people to "fight" criminals as a lot of people believe. Not that I have some end-all solution for poverty or the problems our urban centers face with violence, but the gun nut types certainly don't seem to have any great ideas either.. other than arming themselves, removing welfare programs, and letting the wealthy keep more of their money.
Seems like most are pretty damn reasonable; not hearing of bank robberies gone bad or anything.. pretty much ever.
I know or have known quite a few people in my day who carry. I'd say 75% of them don't concern me at all, but I've known a few that I wouldn't trust anywhere near a crime happening. They carried over some fantasy of gunning down criminals.. not sure they'd actually go through with it if a situation faced them, but wouldn't put it past them either.
I've been robbed at gunpoint before myself. Still don't have a desire to carry. It really wouldn't have helped me, and I do have a bit of a temper problem. Could have ended up shooting them when they ran.
Other than that, I think conceptually a lot of "pro gun" types are just.. off base.. we should address root causes of crime, not arm more people to "fight" criminals as a lot of people believe. Not that I have some end-all solution for poverty or the problems our urban centers face with violence, but the gun nut types certainly don't seem to have any great ideas either.. other than arming themselves, removing welfare programs, and letting the wealthy keep more of their money.
They can disagree all they want, but our poverty rate isn't dramatically worse than countries like England, Spain, Germany and other obviously first-world countries. To even categorize us anywhere near third-world is a dramatic overexaggeration.
I'm not saying it isn't a problem, but for the sake of reasonable discussion, this is important to point out.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Good story is good.
empty vessel
Member
It's actually not poverty (or not simply) but specifically inequality that drives violent crime up. So it doesn't matter whether the American poor are living in third-world conditions.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
It is
In the UK there's very few gun deaths. Overall, their murder rate is much lower, but they are still looking for improvements.
Kitchen knives are one of the more common murder weapons there, so there had been some discussion of blunting the tips of the large kitchen knives most people buy for their home.
Personally, it seemed like a good idea to me. I never use the point of anything but my smallest knives.
fastford58
Member
You know what the real solution to crime is? Eradicate all humans. I guarantee that there will be no gun crime when everyone is dead.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
So what percentage of crimes committed with guns in the US are from guns stolen in the US? Since this is, apparently, the only way for them to obtain them and is such a large percentage of gun crimes you surely have stats to back up these arguments.... Right?
polyh3dron
Banned
You're too extreme. Cutting off ours hands will do.
'Inequality' is a vague term. Who is unequal? And would you mind expanding on how its different than poverty, how it drives crime up and how 'equality' here is any different than other places?
No one is thinking that a homicide-less society is possible. But its ridiculous to ignore how easy guns have made it for people to kill somebody or even themselves. Humans can be very rash, irrational beings that make quick, emotional decisions and adding guns to that mix definitely increases the likelihood of somebody getting seriously hurt or killed.
ReBurn
Gold Member
I was just thinking that if we had more stringent regulation on knife ownership there could be a dramatic decrease in knife violence. This entire situation could have been easily avoided.
fastford58
Member
I was about to say the same thing.
Its an old and generic joke, but knives actually have a practical purpose in life. With guns, people either use them for fun/sport or for killing. Whats funny are people who have guns just for these reasons, yet still go on about the 2nd Amendment. The percentage of people who own guns just in case they need to use it to defend against an oppressive and brutal government are absolutely miniscule. This amendment is just an easy teacher's pass for gun owners justifying their ownership of such a deadly weapon.
I know its GAF and its normal to joke about any and everything, but when you are personally affected by guns like I have, it really stops being funny at a certain point.
ReBurn
Gold Member
But I read the Cliffs Notes and everything.
http://www.cliffsnotes.com/study_gu...rime.topicArticleId-10065,articleId-9923.html
As somebody who has used cliffnotes a fair amount because I was very resistant to doing homework in high school, I can testify that while you might pass a test about the subject(barely, in a lot of cases), you will never be mistaken for a knowledgeable person on it.
ReBurn
Gold Member
You're probably right. But I doubt that you'd ever really have to testify about it.
This thread is crazy. I own guns and love them. I don't CC but I will probably apply in a few months for my job. Is it a bit easy for any person to buy a gun? I'd say so. I can go into a store and buy a handgun right now. The problem with banning guns is there will still be guns, just not for the people who want them legally.
Regardless to guns if some one is going to kill they will kill. Guns here been banned forever. The rate is no different than America. Hell you can still get guns in a country where they are banned.
Mammoth Jones
Member
I've been personally affected by guns too. Twice. Thankfully both of those times they were used to defend my life.
I don't find it funny at all. I just think guns can be used for good or evil. The overwhelming majority use guns for the right purpose. Recreation, hunting or legitimate self defense. Say what you want about the criminals but the fact is they're a minority compared to legit gun owners. Period.
Of course you wouldn't have to. But some people do somehow feel the desire to put in their word in conversations and on message boards about such things. Innocent acts, but again, nobody will mistake for you somebody knowledgeable about what you're saying.
Fuck, I mean, I know you were just joking around, but I guess I'm just not in a 'joke around' mood. Not about this at least. My dad was killed in a stupid drunken argument that probably wouldn't have been more than a drunken brawl at the most if not for the easy availability of guns. I mean, I can understand living with yourself if you develop weapons for pure military purposes(and even that cant be easy), but for whoever developed guns and other gun-powder powered weapons, I sometimes wish that Hell existed. The amount of lives lost needlessly and the suffering that people close to them had to endure is incalculable.
So you think that homicide/suicide rates would be exactly the same whether guns existed or not? lol
And where is 'here'?
Sorry you live in such a shitty place that you've twice needed to fend for your life. Perhaps you should consider moving. You haven't specified exactly what happened to you, so while I'm somewhat doubtful you're even telling the truth given your very poor arguments in the first place and the likelihood that you're just making stuff up to somewhat make your previously crap arguments somehow meaningful(but no less crappy), but its also fairly undeniable that if the assailant has a gun themselves, you are not in a 'better' situation by having a gun yourself.
I agree that the majority use guns for harmless purposes. You wont find many people that argue otherwise. But that minority cant be ignored. I dont know if you've ever felt the pain of losing somebody really close to you, but its difficult. Its really fucking god-damn difficult to deal with. Too many people use guns for bad purposes that it doesn't matter that guns can be used responsibly. Guns aren't a necessary part of life. Why cant you give up a hobby or yours in order to save some fucking lives?
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