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New Zelda: Breath of the Wild interview w/ Aonuma (transl. summary from French)
- Thread starter TheMoon
- Start date
I agree, this is overblown and reactionary
But...
If there is one unifying thing that Zelda fans loved in the series, it was the dungeons. So, unless there are some number of "traditional" dungeons in the game, I could see a lot of fans being miffed about it. (I'm not one of those)
No unique theming doesn't mean no story.
We're not talking about the dungeons being like stars in Mario Galaxy games.
They're going to be tied to the story because otherwise there's no point in doing them.
Even Skyward Sword understood that (to an extent)
I have a NES mini and Zelda TP HD.
I can tell you the dungeons in Zelda 1&2 are vastly better despite the simpler theming if only because they're not fucking braindead.
And I love TP more than I should really.
WW has the single worst selection of dungeons the franchise has to offer.
Seriously the random levels in Four Sword (the gba game) were more engaging than the braindead "thing" WW had.
Oh! A fire/Forest/Earth/Wind dungeons! So novel! On top of that they're done in 20min flat the 1rst time you get there!
By the look of it the small shrines of BotW are already better than that.
Ah, well yeah the Great Plateau is clearly the tutorial section but it's not going to change that much in the course of the game.
I thought you were expecting that the overworld in some parts would change significantly to the point of being unrecognizable or somethng.
Not even that.
Look at WW being so well liked and it wasn't for the dungeons that's for sure.
The switch from "specific dungeon item based puzzles" to "physics/runes/items based puzzles" might potentially be the biggest improvement this new installment brings to the series, which (seeing what they did with everything else) really means something. I already suspected this and i was incredibly excited to see what they did with dungeons this time, which is why i overreacted a bit to Aonuma's statement this morning when i misunderstood what he meant. But like i said, i don't care about the dungeon in the forest being the Forest Temple, the important thing is that they gave a unique, specific aesthetic to each dungeon. Aonuma's quote about "why Link needs to go there" makes me think that they will be important places for him to visit in the main quest, just like in previous entries. So this really is about nothing.
EDIT: i also think they were smart about not showing them in any footage (if not maybe for a few seconds in the latest trailer). What's the point in going in a dungeon if you already saw it and you already know what to do? With shrines is different because they're optional (most of them at least) and there's 120 of them, so showing 5-6 isn't a big deal, especially considering that you can do them in different ways (but this will likely also apply to big dungeons).
EDIT: i also think they were smart about not showing them in any footage (if not maybe for a few seconds in the latest trailer). What's the point in going in a dungeon if you already saw it and you already know what to do? With shrines is different because they're optional (most of them at least) and there's 120 of them, so showing 5-6 isn't a big deal, especially considering that you can do them in different ways (but this will likely also apply to big dungeons).
LegendofLex
Member
Nah, that was just my contribution to the conversation about Nintendo not showing off an early dungeon like they usually do.
For me, the Great Plateau is a look at how the gameplay flows as you move about the overworld, battle enemies, hunt for dungeons and other POIs to check out, and solve puzzles. It gives us most of what we need to know about the game's core systems, without having to walk us through an extended look at one of the main dungeons.
Makes sense, it's true that for pretty much all the other Zelda games they showed off the 1rst few dungeons and even bosses by the time the game was released.
Here we've only seen 1 rock thingy and a few others you only encounter in the wild.
I'd say to not expect much from the anything but the overworld because that's what they advertised so that's what they expect us to play with mostly.
My point here is not every game is MGS2 with some big twist you couldn't see coming for most of the game.
If the game has 50 big themed dungeons that are all extensions of the shrines but harder and bigger, I won't complain though.
It's pretty exciting to see the return of "anything goes" as far as design goes in Zelda.
The overreliance on items being only used for specific uses was one of the worst trend of recent Zelda especially when some alternative uses would have vastly improved the experience (looking at you TP...)
SinCityAssassin
Member
Well this thread certainly blew up since I last got here. I thought we already established the existence of traditional-esque dungeons.
Alternative facts popped up.
Why does a game need to have an MGS2-style twist to be worthy of not spoiling stuff in its trailers? Practically all Resident Evil 7 trailers only showed off the early locations of the game because, much like Nintendo's aim with BotW, it's all about the locations and discovering things for yourself. The dungeons are likely going to be major story points on top of being very different in structure as much of the puzzle gameplay that could only be featured in dungeons before is being moved over to the Shrines; why would Nintendo spoil that stuff?
Breath of the Wild is all about exploration, so what's the point of exploration if you know what you're gonna find before you even find it?
I'm not saying it's not happening.
I'm saying don't be surprised if that's not happening.
Prepare for the worst and hope for the best as they say.
I haven't read the thread thoroughly but the current OP has 3 separate updates all confirming the game has traditional style dungeons.
Evil's Bane
Member
I don't get why people are allowed to be condescending toward others who may have concerns. I don't appreciate being talked down to.
It's an off topic political joke.
Inferno313
Banned
But what if... This one does?
My absolutely crazy, no basis in reality or evidence, theory for this game is that at the mid-way point there will be a major change-up. Kind of like going from the Light World to the Dark World, or from Young Link to Adult Link. But, this time, it'll be that you'll switch from playing Link to Zelda.
Think about it guys.
THINK ABOUT IT.
The point is not only that the game has a huge focus on its world this time, but also marketing. Showing off a gorgeous, giant, interactive open world filled with fantastic mechanics is different than focusing on "hey look, Zelda has dungeons. Shocking". There's also the fact that they finally stopped spoilering the entire game before launch, which is something we should be happy with.
And if you look at the response for the game and the hype they built, is kind of hard to say they were wrong about doing things this way.
And if you look at the response for the game and the hype they built, is kind of hard to say they were wrong about doing things this way.
Neoleo2143
Member
Traditional in the sense that they're "larger". We don't actually know if they behave like other games because Link has the vast Majority of his toolkit right at the start.
I think Mael hit a good sense that they'll probably be more like Zelda II dungeons mixed with the puzzle solving variety of later games.
Because this thread is all about the OP being overly defensive and his friends with silly Nintendo avatars coming to his aid to tell everyone how ignorant they are.
Sure, that's a good policy, but in this case believing there will be no dungeons of any kind at all despite so much evidence (that hasn't been countered with any actual evidence so far) is just needlessly cynical. With Raiden (and, to use duckroll's analogy) the idea of a boss team in MGSV both had no reference whatsoever in interviews, trailers, promotional material, anything, that just isn't the case with Breath of the Wild.
Basically there's more evidence to suggest the inclusion of dungeons than there is to suggest their complete removal (or change into Shrines). Nobody attempting to argue with my long posts outside of "temper your expectations" is just frustrating to me, if you're gonna be cynical the least you could do is acknowledge evidence and arguments going against said cynicism.
TheMoon
Member
Why are we still talking about this addressed, solved, non-issue with "ifs" and "maybes?"
Graphics Horse
Member
A lot of confusion but final point explains it pretty clearly (assuming he's been quoted correctly) that shrines, and dungeons+bosses are two different things
Evil's Bane
Member
I wasn't sure if my tone was wrong or what, but yeah I don't think the hostility is warranted. Nothing wrong with having tempered expectations.
TheMoon
Member
When those with concerns base them on lacking reading comprehension (or an unwillingness to read at all) then everything's fair game.
Team, Unite Up!
TheMoon
Member
But it won't be six months until we know so everyone will be fine.
Also, not sure this is how arguments work.
The term "traditional dungeons" needs to be defined here which is impossible as everyone has a different interpretation of that.
It's getting into semantics here.
Whether they're "bigger" shrines or not change nothing.
I mean take the shrine of Ordeal in TP for example, it's "bottomless" pit with enemy encounters.
They managed to make that themed in some way.
It's not less interesting or more than if it wasn't.
We already know that they won't be the regular item based dungeons we had, whatever we get is already going to vastly different.
It makes no difference if there's forest painting on the walls or not.
The tower of the Gods in WW wasn't more interesting because of the wall textures, it was shit because the designs weren't up to par.
If they deliver on the promise of multiple solution physic puzzles, they can Great Mighty Poo themed for all I care.
Wait are we getting into ban bet territory?
Can I get a tag instead?
Only my interpretation matters.
Skittzo0413
Member
Yeah, I'm not gonna lie here- the initial quote in the post very heavily suggested that there will be no other dungeons outside of the shrines. I don't think reading comprehension was an issue here, it was more the assumption of that translator.
But honestly, Aonuma and several of the Treehouse staff have confirmed that there will be dungeons in addition to the shrines many times since E3. We really have no official information besides that.
TheMoon
Member
Don't forget mine, though.
Chill Penguin
Member
To be fair, themed dungeons like fire forest water etc are a bit played out now, it's more of the same. For this to be a more immersive, believable world the dungeons/shrines have to be presented in a more natural and organic way. If nothing else Zelda has never disappointed with their quality of dungeons. I'm not worried.
SinCityAssassin
Member
Traditional Dungeon
noun
noun: traditional dungeon; plural noun: traditional dungeons
1.
An expansive level found in Romancing SaGa.
I would still think if that were the case with the terminology, then it would be like few shrines are at dungeon-level rather than just being a mini-dungeon.
TheMoon
Member
Wait are we getting into ban bet territory?
Can I get a tag instead?
It's not a bet. It's a lesson in being rude and presumptuous to other Zelda fans.
I'm not gonna lie, I want that now too.
Yeah, I agree, but this is more about the idea that there won't be anything akin to the mandatory story-based dungeons with major bosses at the end seen in previous games, and that all puzzles and combat will be moved to small Shrines instead. The implication is that Breath of the Wild will just be these optional Shrines with a Ganon fight at the end when nobody has provided anything substantial apart from faulty MGS analogies and "but other Zelda marketing showed them off" arguments to refute the evidence that this isn't the case. It's frustrating to me when cynicism, or 'tempered expectations' aren't backed up by anything but themselves.
We already know that the shrines can be quite complex and longer than what was shown.
We also know that the dungeon-like 'shrines' can be skipped to go straight at the last boss too.
All dungeons are optional this time!
If dungeon keys don't make a return in this game I'll wait till I've played to say if that's good or bad.
e: and we know that there exist dungeon bosses so I'd say that at least in design there's dungeons in this game, you can call them whatever you want though.
Can I get still get a tag instead of a ban though
SinCityAssassin
Member
I wonder if Death Mountain's a mega-shrine now.
This is how Ganondorf got elected.
DecoReturns
Member
Ban them till until the next Mainline Zelda game is release.
I'm not that much of a monster...
Evil's Bane
Member
If they plan on booting the traditional dungeon out, I wonder how they'll replace them.
I imagine bigger areas where you have to hunt those beasts we saw in the trailer down. That would be pretty organic and fit into the "wild" theme.
I imagine bigger areas where you have to hunt those beasts we saw in the trailer down. That would be pretty organic and fit into the "wild" theme.
SinCityAssassin
Member
Throw them into the dungeon that is yet to clearly conceptually exists outside internal knowledge, but can be plausibly assumed to be under the umbrella of the term Shrine even though they have the possible scale and complexity of a traditional dungeon.
1000 years.
That or the next release of a SaGa game....in Europe... whichever comes first.
Skittzo0413
Member
The full quote from the original OP:
This at the very least implies that the "bigger and more complex" things are just bigger shrines, that are identical or similar to other shrines in their entrance, purpose, and aesthetic. You could certainly read that quote and assume that there are no dungeons separate from the shrines.
That said, for people following all of this very closely, we have confirmation probably a dozen times now that there will be dungeons separate from shrines. It's just that this particular translation above seems to imply the opposite.
The biggest unknown for me is still how standard progression will feel throughout the game. As some story with cutscenes is apparently still present and bigger dungeons are supposedly there too I really wonder if you even get an item there if the game is as non-linear as proclaimed. Sounds really hard to imagine so I just want to play it already.
DecoReturns
Member
Yeah. Too harsh.
So what does traditional mean to you?
I see traditional as, theme dungeon and need to find special item to solve dungeon and beat boss with special item. Boss has special introductory title.
Plus Heart container at the end
Everything's optional, sure, you can beat Ganon down with a thousand sticks and a lot of skill and willpower, but we've seen so much in terms of cutscenes in both the VGA and Launch trailers that the idea that BotW only features shrines would be like saying Grand Theft Auto V only features the Strangers and Freaks missions. How could the scene, for example, with the head Zora shaking Link's hand happen if there wasn't some major piece of story-driven content before it? Would Link just happen on a Zora tribe and if you've completed say, 60/120 Shrines they say well done? If it's just the shrines then Breath of the Wild would just be a grand adventure where Link completes a bunch of non-connected Portal testing chambers, maybe makes a brief detour to some forest (because the Lost Woods is story-driven content) to get the Master Sword, and then fights Ganon when he feels like it. Even if there wasn't any evidence whatsoever to suggest large story-driven dungeons would be in the sheer lack of sense that game structure makes for a Zelda game and what we've seen of the story so far is a compelling enough reason for me.
As for the semantic distinction between Shrines and Dungeons, it's been said time and again that Shrines are entirely optional, as in, if you don't complete any Shrines you can still trigger all the cutscenes and do all the major story quests. This is a direct quote from Aonuma in the OP:
Aonuma said:
I don't see that as implying that most Shrines are optional but some reward you with story content, I see that as saying that they're the equivalent of side quests or missions in any other open world games. It's pretty clear that that the "Completely different purpose" he talks about is story, hence why they haven't shown off any of them in detail. If you want even more evidence you can even see in the VGA trailer the Ruto (?) flying up to the giant mechanical bird in the sky which is shown in that very same trailer as going from red (i.e. Ganon controlled) to blue, if that's not a dungeon then what else could it possibly be?
The only thing that's somewhat up in the air is to me how different the dungeons will look when compared to the shrines, but even then Nintendo has never been a company for subtle differences between the features within its games so I don't see why they would design important story content the exact same way as the 120 completely optional Shrines.