Support NeoGAF

[pacman4000]

The leaked motherboard does not confirm TSMC N6, time to change topic title?

 

[Kataploom]

Yes, u conviniently left out major difference between 90nm manufacturing process of x360 and 20nm manufacturing process of switch, which we wont have anymore in series s vs switch 2, difference in manufacturing process, that is crucial for powerdraw/performance ratio is very small between series s and switch2, while it was humongous between x360 and og switch, and that was major reason switch could be visibly more powerful from x360 even with its handheld powerdraw and formfactor.

From the leaks we got we know console is roughly on pair with ps4 when in handheld mode, ps4pr0 in docked mode( that doesnt mean exact exacly same tflop number on the gpu, switch2 will have weaker gpu, no doubts about it, just with much more modern features/archi it will be able to produce roughly similar quality of graphics).
Series S is stronger from ps4pr0 in every aspect, we know this not only by comparing specs, but by simply comparing same exact game that runs on both platforms, be it cp2077, hogwards legacy or jedi survivor, version for series S is always superior between those 2.
Switch2 will trade blows with ps4pr0 when docked, so will be 4sure weaker from series s, and it will be beyond any doubt.

And I agree with you in all of that, I just added some differences apart from the efficiency against PS360, also remember that part of the reason why the XSS is much better than PS4 Pro is the CPU and I/O, which Switch 2 will also have. I'm not saying it's gonna be as powerful as XSS but I can see it not being so behind as many think it will be

 

[Shadowstar39]

Comparable (if true) to an RTX 2080 or a stock PS4 if I'm not mistaken

Which is damn good and perfectly fine for a handheld hybrid. People expecting ps5 specs are in for a wake-up call.

 

[Negotiator]

Comparable (if true) to an RTX 2080 or a stock PS4 if I'm not mistaken

RTX 2080 is way more powerful than PS4 GPU... are you saying Switch 2 GPU will be equal to RTX 2080?

 

[LordOcidax]

Which is damn good and perfectly fine for a handheld hybrid. People expecting ps5 specs are in for a wake-up call.

Nobody is expecting PS5 specs… We have the specs leaked from a long time ago, and people are expecting PS4 to Pro level of performance.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Why are you quoting some random company and not NVIDIA?

Nvidia's slide is 3 years prior to releasing the platform

Do you not see anything wrong with that slide? It's 200 TOPS. The 2019 version of Orin AGX was not as strong as the T234 we got. In fact, 200 TOPS is the now AGX Orin 32GB which has 14 SMs, not 16.

Different designs with different ratios of Logic/SRAM/Analog can have very different densities. Look at H100 vs AD102 as an example.

Nvidia / Nintendo APUs have never went offroad on existing platforms. Kopite7kimi, you know, one of the few credible leakers, is tapping on T234 as not having to guess anything on Switch 2 except for cutdown CPU cores and SMs.

Been a while since I looked at the hacked NVIDIA data, but IIRC it showed T239 having half the cache for both CPU and GPU portions.

Clock gating adds minimal area.

There's no mentions of T239 cache size I can find anywhere, not even from Nvidia hack years ago. Of course removing a row of ARM A78 cores will remove 2MB of L3 cache, like any binning of Orin. Gaming loves cache, ampere architecture performs better with cache. Nintendo historically loves cache.

As for Ada gates, again, you're pulling out of your ass that this is the only backported features.

No, but it's quite small on PS5/Xbox.

Point it out on the die shot then

It definitely does.

OMG you're wasting my time. Go cut the borders of T234, fully. I'm tired of this shit. Then compare area of that fully cut down bus width with the one including it.

YOU

ARE

NEVER

GOING

TO

APPROACH

42%

AREA

Go ahead, remove DLA. Do you know where it is or I have to point it out?

You can remove a lot of stuff. As I said it's already confirmed that T239 doesn't have the NPU and all RAS features. A lot of I/O can be cutdown, encoder/decoder can be simplified due to targeting a fixed resolution.

lol, really, playing with video encode/decode size to simplify target resolutions? Dude, no GPU has ever done that to an architecture. Why would Nvidia edit NV multimedia and lock devs to specific formats. Who does that, find me a single SOC in modern ages that does this. Stop pulling things out of your ass. What's next? They'll revise APE (audio processing engine) to lock down certain KHz and audio codecs?

But sure.

Do make a new T239 die, point out the cut-down features by identifying on T234 what they are and why it is removed/reduced. Assemble a new APU and come back to us. Or don't waste my time.

You can also cut out the SM & core area from the total T234 and get to 10B transistors just for GPU & CPU. T239 is 75% of that, 8 cores vs 12 core cpu, and 12SM vs 16 SM. So estimate 7.5B transistors JUST for GPU & CPU. You're a long way home to include the rests that makes up an APU, a long long way.

At that point if you strip down everything, why are you even basing anything from T234 chipset? Why would kopite7kimi even start with this baseline? You can go ahead and @ him on twitter with your theories, I'll grab the popcorn.

 

[Negotiator]

They'll revise APE (audio processing engine) to lock down certain KHz and audio codecs?

Now that you mention it, Nintendo had a dedicated audio DSP in Wii/Wii U, but Switch didn't have one (IIRC, Tegra X1 has some kind of ARM cores for audio processing).

Do we know if T239 brings back audio DSPs?

Sony/MS consoles have some kind of dedicated DSP (TrueAudio etc.) to offload audio processing from the CPU.

Even on PCs I'd prefer it if there was some standardized DSP solution (and yes, I know modern CPUs with AVX2 are strong enough for FFT, but every cycle saved counts IMHO).

 

[spookyfish]

How many duct-taped Gamecubes is that?

Sorry, but this will never get old (for me). A reminder of days long past.

 

[loktaiextatus]

Metroid Prime looks fucking gorgeous and runs at a locked 60fps.

The environments are MUCH less detailed, the textures are VERY simple.

 

[loktaiextatus]

Here is my take- not that my opinion is worth much more than me pissing into the wind - But look

I've literally made the argument MANY times on this board that SWITCH is a handheld which can connect to a TV and thus its peak power draw is a big higher when its plugged into AC power.
Lots of handhelds have had TV output. Thats what Switch 2 also is- a handheld.

Yeah switch is about as powerful as the Wii U... a little newer so it has some tricks up its sleeve but the Wii U is a little more powerful than PS3- a console from 2006.
What could devs do with the PS3 if they REALLY milked it in 2020+ with modern dev tools etc? Nobody really knows but I would assume if not for the RAM constraints it could run most of whats on switch.
Thats not to knock switch. The gameboy advance was like having a portable SNES+- Having a handheld a generation behind a console doesnt make for bad gaming.

People are ONLY upset because they bought into the "hybrid" and "its a console" BS.

When SWITCH was announced we were given the possibility that it would have MAXWELL or PASCAL cores based on what was out there- It ended up having the more power hungry and less powerful
MAXWELL cores. I was pretty crushed- I was hoping for a nintendo powerhouse. When it actually came out it was 50 bucks more expensive than expected and had weaker hardware than we hoped.

But SINCE THEN the Switch has had literally hundreds of GREAT releases and I have played the hell out of my switch handheld.

The Switch 2 is likely going to blow your mind- Not because its as powerful as a PS5 but because it will be the most powerful handheld with exclusive games. They will MILK it the way they did the switch.
Those games youre showing on the switch even getting CLOSE to what was on PS3 is great- those were the top PS3 games- and the PS3 is a decade older.
If the Switch 2 can play shit that the base PS4 can play- Youre talking about games like Uncharted 4 and The Order 1886 and God of War and Horizon Zero Dawn etc etc without ever
talking about the PRO at all. Just a 2tf base PS4 which the switch 2 will DEF surpass and the base games will be built for it, not just built for a base PS4 and graphically enhanced by patches-
so youre likely to see even better running on that. Now imagine Gran Turismo 7 (ps4 version) running on a little 7 (or whatever the switch 2 is ) inch likely OLED quality screen - You will be FLOORED. it will look INCREDIBLE. Just sayin!

 

[Kataploom]

Sorry, but this will never get old (for me). A reminder of days long past.

This is technically irrelevant, the detail you put into a texture file doesn't have any incidence in the power required for rendering it on the screen, it's just an artistic choice.

Actually, a game using PBR pipeline requires more texture files per material which also requires more RAM just to render a model in the scene, compared to legacy rendering pipelines used in 7th gen, so Metroid Prime Remaster is literally a generation ahead in that regard.

Almost all first part games fin Nintendo use PBR, except for some early Wii U games like Pikmin 3, you can check yourself by watching Pikmin 3 vs Pikmin 4 and seeing how generationally different the materials of both games look.

 

[Mithos]

I should not expect PS4 Pro level, or PS5 level... But I'm expected to pay PS4 Pro level or PS5 level price, Interesting.

 

[Negotiator]

I should not expect PS4 Pro level, or PS5 level... But I'm expected to pay PS4 Pro level or PS5 level price, Interesting.

Base PS4 on portable and PS4 Pro/XSS on docked.

I mention XSS mainly because of the I/O improvement (let alone rasterization efficiency due to Ampere/DLSS). UFS 3.1 is basically a mobile NVMe, so I/O-wise it's already next-gen compared to PS4 HDD.

Haptic-wise even Switch 1 is next-gen compared to PS4/XB1 basic rumble... I know most people here don't care about controls, but some of us care.

Even widespread gyroscope usage is the norm on Switch (unlike the PS4 DS4, sadly). It's strange, because PS Vita supported gyro aiming in more 1st party games (Uncharted, Killzone etc). Sony dropped the ball on that one (no gyro aiming in Killzone Shadowfall, Uncharted 4 etc).

Nintendo also needs to support 3D audio (RT cores should help, in case they don't add a dedicated audio DSP) and party chat support for MP gamers.

Pricing-wise, $400 in 2025 buys you less groceries compared to 2016 (PS4 Pro release). It's sad, but the US (FED) printed 10 trillion $$$ in 2020 (more than the previous 200 years combined), so your precious dollar got devalued.

 

[Negotiator]

Cache-wise it seems pretty good:

192KB L1 per SM.

I expect L2 to be cut down to 3MB with only 12 SMs and it still won't bottleneck anything.

People tend to forget that Tegra X1 (Switch 1) only had 256KB of L2 to perform tiled rendering with amazing efficiency:

NVIDIA Jetson TX1 Specs

NVIDIA GM20B, 998 MHz, 256 Cores, 16 TMUs, 16 ROPs, 4096 MB LPDDR4, 600 MHz, 64 bit

www.techpowerup.com

L2 is the new eDRAM.

 

[Negotiator]

I'm curious to see if Switch 2 will be able to increase framerates up to 3x with DLSS 3.5 + Ray Reconstruction + Frame Generation (maybe Nintendo has a reason to backport Ada features):

NVIDIA DLSS 3.5 Ray Reconstruction Review - Better Than Native

NVIDIA DLSS 3.5 launches today, supporting GeForce 20 and newer. The new algorithm improves the looks ray traced lighting, reflections, shadows and more. In our DLSS 3.5 Ray Reconstruction review we test image quality, but also discovered that VRAM usage actually goes down and performance goes up.

www.techpowerup.com

If portable mode (2TF) starts from a base resolution of 540p (PS Vita native framebuffer, sounds perfect for a mobile SoC), it could reach 1080p with DLSS and amazing image quality:

Docked mode (4TF) could start from a baseline of 1080p to reach 4K with DLSS.

I think many people will be surprised efficiency-wise...

 

[Hudo]

I just want a new 3D Mario, man...

 

[BlackTron]

Comparable (if true) to an RTX 2080 or a stock PS4 if I'm not mistaken

2080 is closer to a Series X or PS5. Don't start making the "I can't believe delusional N fanboys actually hope it will be a PS5" lies true!

 

[Buggy Loop]

I just want a new 3D Mario, man...

With neural rendering shaders for hyper realism thanks to Nvidia

Spoiler

 

[E-Cat]

I just want a new 3D Mario, man...

But we just had Odyssey?

One of the benefits of getting old...

 

[CityHunter1981]

I think it’s pretty good. Of course they won’t build a state of the art handheld device, since they still want the device to be in a realistic price range for a Christmas or Birthday gift.

We should also remember that DLSS is much better than FSR, so I am sure it will be able to play all modern games with some lowered details.

 

[NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt]

But we just had Odyssey?

One of the benefits of getting old...

That was 2017 though, we are due for a new 3D Mario game.

 

[E-Cat]

That was 2017 though, we are due for a new 3D Mario game.

Of course. The point is, that doesn’t seem that long ago to me.

 

[chromhound]

So between PS4 and PS4 Pro?

 

[GigaBowser]

So between PS4 and PS4 Pro?

more modern less power BETTER performance dlss nvidia chip set

 

[KeplerL2]

Nvidia's slide is 3 years prior to releasing the platform

Do you not see anything wrong with that slide? It's 200 TOPS. The 2019 version of Orin AGX was not as strong as the T234 we got. In fact, 200 TOPS is the now AGX Orin 32GB which has 14 SMs, not 16.

Fair enough, looks like T234 had some changes from announcement to release.

Nvidia / Nintendo APUs have never went offroad on existing platforms. Kopite7kimi, you know, one of the few credible leakers, is tapping on T234 as not having to guess anything on Switch 2 except for cutdown CPU cores and SMs.

This doesn't address my argument. Different dies even on the same node with the same architecture can have very different densities due to different ratios of Logic/SRAM/Analog cells or use of different libraries. FYI the most recent rumor from people with NVIDIA sources is that T239 is using 8LPU, which is slightly denser and more power efficient than 8LPP used by gaming Ampere/T234 due to smaller fin size.

There's no mentions of T239 cache size I can find anywhere, not even from Nvidia hack years ago. Of course removing a row of ARM A78 cores will remove 2MB of L3 cache, like any binning of Orin. Gaming loves cache, ampere architecture performs better with cache. Nintendo historically loves cache.

As for Ada gates, again, you're pulling out of your ass that this is the only backported features.

I seem to recall T239 GPU only having 2MB of GPU L2 cache from either the NVIDIA hack or Linux open source patches. Same for the Ada clock gating features. No, I'm not gonna bother looking for proof of it. Ask someone at Famiboards and I'm sure they can tell you if I'm right or wrong.

Point it out on the die shot then

I can't because it's too small.

lol, really, playing with video encode/decode size to simplify target resolutions? Dude, no GPU has ever done that to an architecture. Why would Nvidia edit NV multimedia and lock devs to specific formats. Who does that, find me a single SOC in modern ages that does this. Stop pulling things out of your ass. What's next? They'll revise APE (audio processing engine) to lock down certain KHz and audio codecs?

Not sure about NVIDIA but AMD does that all the time. Intel does it sometimes too.

Or don't waste my time.

You're right, this is a waste of time. Just wait 3 months and you'll be disappointed that Nintendo cheaped out on HW like they always do.

 

[existensmaximum]

I just want a new 3D Mario, man...

Preferably a good one! Am I the only one who thought Odyssey was the worst 3D Mario game..?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Preferably a good one! Am I the only one who thought Odyssey was the worst 3D Mario game..?

Visually it was very ugly but it was a fun and competent Mario game

Hopefully with Switch 2 they can fix the ugly

 

[Robb]

Preferably a good one! Am I the only one who thought Odyssey was the worst 3D Mario game..?

Probably. Unless you never played 3D Land, 3D World, or Sunshine.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

Preferably a good one! Am I the only one who thought Odyssey was the worst 3D Mario game..?

Definitely not the worst, but it had way too much bloat. There were so many moons with uninteresting chores you had to perform that I just completely lost interest at some point. Less is more. I still think Galaxy 1 and 2 had the perfect balance.

 

[existensmaximum]

Probably. Unless you never played 3D Land, 3D World, or Sunshine.

I think they are way better and more enjoyable, yeah. Well whatever, opinions opinions.

 

[pulicat]

PS5 = 10.28TF

Switch = 0.392TF

 

[Robb]

I think they are way better and more enjoyable, yeah. Well whatever, opinions opinions.

We can’t all have great taste.

Nah, but I’ve enjoyed them all in some capacity. I just don’t jam with the ‘3D Land/World/etc.’ branch of games that try to mix 2D/3D mechanics. Those are by far my least favorite of the bunch.

Although I never played Bowsers Fury, so maybe that approach works better.

But my wish is definitely for the Switch 2 game to be something more exploration based (64/Sunshine/Odyssey).

 

[Buggy Loop]

This doesn't address my argument. Different dies even on the same node with the same architecture can have very different densities due to different ratios of Logic/SRAM/Analog cells or use of different libraries.

Ampere dies, Samsung 8nm

• GA107 - 8.7B Tr, 200mm² = 43.5 MTr/mm²
• GA106 - 12B Tr, 276mm² = 43.5 MTr/mm²
• GA104 - 17.4B Tr, 392mm² = 44.4 MTr/mm²
• GA103 - 22B Tr, 496 mm² = 44.4 MTr/mm²
• GA102 - 28.3B Tr, 628 mm² = 45.1 MTr/mm²
• T234 - 21B Tr, 455 mm² = 46.1 MTr/mm²

Very different densities?

FYI the most recent rumor from people with NVIDIA sources is that T239 is using 8LPU, which is slightly denser and more power efficient than 8LPP used by gaming Ampere/T234 due to smaller fin size.

Recent rumour? 8LPU has been looming in the Switch 2 discussions since 2021

 

[KeplerL2]

Ampere dies, Samsung 8nm

• GA107 - 8.7B Tr, 200mm² = 43.5 MTr/mm²
• GA106 - 12B Tr, 276mm² = 43.5 MTr/mm²
• GA104 - 17.4B Tr, 392mm² = 44.4 MTr/mm²
• GA103 - 22B Tr, 496 mm² = 44.4 MTr/mm²
• GA102 - 28.3B Tr, 628 mm² = 45.1 MTr/mm²
• T234 - 21B Tr, 455 mm² = 46.1 MTr/mm²

Very different densities?

H100 80B 814mm² = 98.3 MTr/mm²
AD102 76.3B 609mm² = 125.3 MTr/mm²

Arden (XSX) 15.3B 360mm² = 42.5 MTr/mm²
Navi21 26.8B 520mm² = 51.5 MTr/mm²

Recent rumour? 8LPU has been looming in the Switch 2 discussions since 2021

I'm not talking about speculation from random famiboard users, but what people with actual sources at NVIDIA are suggesting T239 is using.

 

[ADiTAR]

Although I never played Bowsers Fury, so maybe that approach works better.

BF does not blend 2d and 3d, it's basically an open Mario 3D playground.

 

[Robb]

BF does not blend 2d and 3d, it's basically an open Mario 3D playground.

Yeah, it does look a lot different compared to the regular 3D Land/World style. I’d probably have bought it if it had standalone release.

 

[ADiTAR]

Yeah, it does look a lot different compared to the regular 3D Land/World style. I’d probably have bought it if it had standalone release.

if it's on sale, I really suggest it. it's really amazing.

 

[Robb]

if it's on sale, I really suggest it. it's really amazing.

Even then it seems like a bad deal considering I have zero interest in re-playing 3D World.

But maybe they’ll move in that direction for the next one. A full open-world game sounds like a natural extension of the Bowsers Fury DLC and Odyssey.

 

[jm89]

Nobody is expecting PS5 specs… We have the specs leaked from a long time ago, and people are expecting PS4 to Pro level of performance.

Some

 

[Robb]

Some

 

[Moses85]

Its getting crazier and crazier every day.

 

[Zathalus]

Anybody expecting PS5 equivalent visuals are in for a disappointment. DLSS is good but it’s not magic. That’s being said almost all games that can run on XSX/PS5 can probably be ported to the Switch 2, just expect the usual visual cutbacks and 30 instead of 60 fps.

 

[Buggy Loop]

H100 80B 814mm² = 98.3 MTr/mm²
AD102 76.3B 609mm² = 125.3 MTr/mm²

Not even the same architecture, Hopper vs Lovelace

Apples to apples Samsung 8nm it doesn’t vary across the whole chipsets. Here comes Mr obvious with totally different foundry and architectures

Neo member, you’re testing my patience and going into ignore territory.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Some

Oh god

This will be painful years to come

Diminishing return and this gen dragging its feet into crossgen will create now endless comparisons and DF videos. Since switch 2 will be a tad more powerful than base PS4 and have more modern feature set such as much faster SSD streaming, we’ll have endless bickering compared to PS5.

Not even naughty dog unlocked full PS5 potential it seem like everyone expected

 

[Woopah]

You're always going to get delusional takes on Twitter, but the vast majority of what I read on forums is pretty reasonable.

 

[LordOcidax]

Some

I am talking about this forum, the consensus has their expectations in check. Out there you are going to find a lot of attention whores, but the majority also have their expectations under control.

 

[LordOcidax]

You're always going to get delusional takes on Twitter, but the vast majority of what I read on forums is pretty reasonable.

Agree with you, also the people that shoot that high in the majority of cases are non Nintendo fans or well known Nintendo haters that want to create a narrative of disappointment for the Switch 2 reveal, even in Nintendo centric forums have their expectations in check.

 

[Negotiator]

Agree with you, also the people that shoot that high in the majority of cases are non Nintendo fans or well known Nintendo haters that want to create a narrative of disappointment for the Switch 2 reveal, even in Nintendo centric forums have their expectations in check.

Too many people (fanboys with only 1 platform?) are laughing at this thread, so let's make this clear:

I own a beefy PC (RTX 4070), PS5 and XSX, so I'm not looking to play 3rd party ports on Switch 2.

I only care about 1st party Nintendo exclusives utilizing Tegra T239 to its maximum potential, especially in docked mode (4TF)!

People moaning about Switch/Nintendo (usually PCMR folks that despise consoles) want Nintendo to become a 3rd party publisher and they won't stop crying, until Nintendo becomes like Microsoft & Sony.

Nintendo is the last stronghold of consoles, so no, they won't give you PC ports of their IP portfolio. Deal with it.-

 

[PeteBull]

Its all good, my humble nintendo brethen, i got exclusive footage with what Jensen Huang (CEO of Nvidia) has been cooking for us, its glorious

 

[Hudo]

Preferably a good one! Am I the only one who thought Odyssey was the worst 3D Mario game..?

I wouldn't say it was the worst. But it steered more into the "collectathon-y" style of platformer. And that I still kinda liked it, even though I actually dislike all of Rare's collectathon games. Not a bad achievement! But I hope they don't lean even harder into the Odyssey direction for the next one. Either work off of the "tech demo" that was Bowser's Fury or do a Galaxy 3.