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[Negotiator]

Insiders say cutting-edge graphics are too costly for AAA games

The ongoing industry crisis may finally teach that more graphics do not equal more sales.

www.tomshardware.com

As former Square Enix executive Jacob Navok noted to The New York Times, "It's very clear that high-fidelity visuals are only moving the needle for a vocal class of gamers in their 40s and 50s. But what does my 7-year old son play? Minecraft. Roblox. Fortnite."

Rami continues, "How can we as an industry make shorter games with worse graphics made with people who are paid well to work less? If we can, there might be short-term hope. Otherwise, I think the slow strangulation of the games industry is ongoing."

Rings any bells?

Nintendo knows what they're doing, they have the most sustainable business model in the industry... whether you like it or not.

 

[Banjo64]

 

[Melon Husk]

 

[loktaiextatus]

As I said- Youre talking about HANDHELD and when people talk about handheld - only one generation behind is AMAZING AND A BASE PS4 is GREAT!

But people bought into the "hybrid console" thing and they are placing their eggs in the "home console" basket and being pissed off when its not competitive with current home consoles.

The gamecube was competitive- VERY
The Wii was not - it was a gamecube
The wii U EASILY beat the machines already out on its release (the machines stronger than it were not yet out- so it wasnt a generation behind as Wii was - they were moving forward as far as that goes the machine just didnt catch on - bad naming confused people)

The Switch and Switch 2 are handhelds- Nintendo only allows the TV function because they pulled out of the CONSOLE market- so their handhelds do TV connectivity now so they can cater to that market especially since people are much more sedentary and leave home less than they did 20 years + ago. The switch series of machines are handhelds- and people would be HAPPY with even base PS4 power if thats how they saw them - but they dont - they are invested in the "its a console" rhetoric.

 

[Kataploom]

Insiders say cutting-edge graphics are too costly for AAA games

The ongoing industry crisis may finally teach that more graphics do not equal more sales.

www.tomshardware.com

Rings any bells?

Nintendo knows what they're doing, they have the most sustainable business model in the industry... whether you like it or not.

I've been saying it for a while already, time generations care more about great art direction than fidelity and realism.

It's obvious: They've grown up with mobile games which relied more on art than fidelity, and contrary to us, they already have realistic graphics available in other devices, for them graphics fidelity means nothing unless it boosts art direction, but that's it.

 

[LordOcidax]

But but but the PS5 version looks better… Can’t wait to read those comments.

 

[kevboard]

As I said- Youre talking about HANDHELD and when people talk about handheld - only one generation behind is AMAZING AND A BASE PS4 is GREAT!

But people bought into the "hybrid console" thing and they are placing their eggs in the "home console" basket and being pissed off when its not competitive with current home consoles.

these people are what I would call delusional...
a hybrid console is literally just a handheld with optional TV connection. "hybrid console" isn't an actual hardware class, it's a usage concept.
so anyone expecting more than handheld performance is, well, as I said, delusional.

from a device class standpoint the Switch 1 was the successor to the 3DS not to the Wii U.

 

[ADiTAR]

these people are what I would call delusional...
a hybrid console is literally just a handheld with optional TV connection. "hybrid console" isn't an actual hardware class, it's a usage concept.
so anyone expecting more than handheld performance is, well, as I said, delusional.

from a device class standpoint the Switch 1 was the successor to the 3DS not to the Wii U.

Switch in docked mode did offer a boost in resolution and IQ. It didn't just connect to a TV and had the same exact graphics.

 

[kevboard]

Switch in docked mode did offer a boost in resolution and IQ. It didn't just connect to a TV and had the same exact graphics.

yes, which was possible because the Wii U had a slower GPU and CPU than the 360, a console that launched a generation before the Wii U.

so the Switch was in line with "like a last gen console but portable" pattern we are used to.
and the Switch 2 will again repeat this pattern.

3DS was a portable GC gen in terms of performance, and the Switch a portable 360 gen.
it follows the exact pattern.

 

[Negotiator]

I've been saying it for a while already, time generations care more about great art direction than fidelity and realism.

It's obvious: They've grown up with mobile games which relied more on art than fidelity, and contrary to us, they already have realistic graphics available in other devices, for them graphics fidelity means nothing unless it boosts art direction, but that's it.

Even someone like me who grew up playing Pitfall! on Atari VCS doesn't care about having AAAA graphics if the story is infected by Sweet Baby Inc BS and the gameplay is subpar.

I'll be very happy if Nintendo manages to have Uncharted 4 graphics on Switch 2. Anything more than that is added bonus.

from a device class standpoint the Switch 1 was the successor to the 3DS not to the Wii U.

Can you play Splatoon on 3DS? Does 3DS support programmable shaders? How come they never released a 3DS version of it?

Also, I'm pretty sure Switch docked has roughly the same TDP as SNES.

Does that mean that SNES is a portable console?

Just because the norm these days is 200W home consoles, doesn't mean Nintendo had to follow and risk a YLOD/RROD fiasco.

Nintendo caters to their market (Japan) first and Americans/Europeans are free to buy it IF they like it.

They don't have to cater to West first (like modern American Sony does) and let Japan behind.

 

[Kataploom]

Even someone like me who grew up playing Pitfall! on Atari VCS doesn't care about having AAAA graphics if the story is infected by Sweet Baby Inc BS and the gameplay is subpar.

I'll be very happy if Nintendo manages to have Uncharted 4 graphics on Switch 2. Anything more than that is added bonus.


Can you play Splatoon on 3DS? Does 3DS support programmable shaders? How come they never released a 3DS version of it?

Also, I'm pretty sure Switch docked has roughly the same TDP as SNES.

Does that mean that SNES is a portable console?

Just because the norm these days is 200W home consoles, doesn't mean Nintendo had to follow and risk a YLOD/RROD fiasco.

Nintendo caters to their market (Japan) first and Americans/Europeans are free to buy it IF they like it.

They don't have to cater to West first (like modern American Sony does) and let Japan behind.

Hell, Wii U was 40w or something like that, it's not a matter of "being portable", it's a matter of "being Nintendo" if anything lol

 

[kevboard]

Can you play Splatoon on 3DS? Does 3DS support programmable shaders? How come they never released a 3DS version of it?

what in the ever loving fuck are you trying to say here?

Also, I'm pretty sure Switch docked has roughly the same TDP as SNES.

Does that mean that SNES is a portable console?

...like really, are you on drugs?

Just because the norm these days is 200W home consoles, doesn't mean Nintendo had to follow and risk a YLOD/RROD fiasco.

nothing you say has any logic behind it. what does power consumption have to do with anything?

 

[Negotiator]

yes, which was possible because the Wii U had a slower GPU and CPU than the 360, a console that launched a generation before the Wii U.

Slower GPU? Not really. It's a lot faster and has bigger eDRAM.

Even the CPU is faster (OoO vs in-order), in kinda the same way Pentium 3 is faster (low clocks, high IPC) than Pentium 4 (higher clocks, low IPC).

Cell/Xenon were pursuing high clocks (like P4 did) and SIMD performance (to make up for the lack of GPU compute).

 

[phant0m]

Just tell me if this sucks or not.

you new here? everything sucks and is unplayable or DEI trash

 

[That Damn Kid]

 

[Buggy Loop]

IS IT 8nm???

6nm???????????????????


5nm ?????????????????

I CANNOT SLEEP UNTIL I KNOWWWWWW

 

[dragonyeuw]

"As former Square Enix executive Jacob Navok noted to The New York Times, "It's very clear that high-fidelity visuals are only moving the needle for a vocal class of gamers in their 40s and 50s. But what does my 7-year old son play? Minecraft. Roblox. Fortnite."

Yep. My soon to be 7 year old nephew just got a Series S for Christmas. What are the games on his account so far? Minecraft Dungeons. Roblox, Fortnite and Marvel Rivals.

 

[Kataploom]

Switch in docked mode did offer a boost in resolution and IQ. It didn't just connect to a TV and had the same exact graphics.

Not only that, it's a system designed from its very conception as a hybrid machine, it's marketed as such, it comes with a Dock and HDMI cable in the box, the controllers can be plugged and unplugged in the console and in the grip out of the box as well, it's not just "a tablet with HDMI port", it's literally a device designed for couch gaming as much as a PS5.

I think some people have that idea from the fact that the main body is the tablet, but as they're designing a hybrid experience, each part has to be reduced to the lowest common denominator, else it wouldn't work, and that's literally about it for the portable characteristics.

The Switch Lite the only thing that did was to remove those elements for TV experience, literally changing nothing else in terms of functionality, but then you can do the same for a TV only Switch, you can remove the screen and put all internals inside a Dock-like box and call it a day, because it's a device ready for both types of experiences out of the box.

 

[Negotiator]

The Switch Lite the only thing that did was to remove those elements for TV experience, literally changing nothing else in terms of functionality, but then you can do the same for a TV only Switch, you can remove the screen and put all internals inside a Dock-like box and call it a day, because it's a device ready for both types of experiences out of the box.

I don't know why Nintendo doesn't do that, but I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

I remember Iwata saying NX would be like "brothers", a family of systems (multiple SKUs). Portable, hybrid, home console.

They could launch a docked-only SKU at $299 with Pro controller and call it a day.

Removing the screen, 3 batteries (1 from the console, 2 from the joy-cons) and fusing the dock with the PCB could reduce BOM quite a bit.

 

[Dacvak]

I don't know why Nintendo doesn't do that, but I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

I remember Iwata saying NX would be like "brothers", a family of systems (multiple SKUs). Portable, hybrid, home console.

They could launch a docked-only SKU at $299 with Pro controller and call it a day.

Removing the screen, 3 batteries (1 from the console, 2 from the joy-cons) and fusing the dock with the PCB could reduce BOM quite a bit.

I suspect the reason they don’t do that is because there are actually a handful of Switch games that essentially require portable mode and/or the touchscreen. AFAIK, there aren’t any games that require Docked mode. Which is probably why they were comfortable putting out a Switch Lite that didn’t dock.

Not saying it’s a good reason, but I’d imagine it has something to do with their reasoning.

 

[Negotiator]

I suspect the reason they don’t do that is because there are actually a handful of Switch games that essentially require portable mode and/or the touchscreen. AFAIK, there aren’t any games that require Docked mode. Which is probably why they were comfortable putting out a Switch Lite that didn’t dock.

Not saying it’s a good reason, but I’d imagine it has something to do with their reasoning.

Apart from 1-2 Switch and Labo (which don't support Switch Lite either AFAIK), I cannot think of any other games.

99.9% of Switch games would work just fine in a docked-only SKU with a Pro controller.

 

[crazyriddler]

Apart from 1-2 Switch and Labo (which don't support Switch Lite either AFAIK), I cannot think of any other games.

99.9% of Switch games would work just fine in a docked-only SKU with a Pro controller.

My bet is that the telemetry will indicate to them that handheld mode is much more widely used than dock mode. So it probably won't be profitable for them to invest in a docked-only SKU.

 

[Dacvak]

Apart from 1-2 Switch and Labo (which don't support Switch Lite either AFAIK), I cannot think of any other games.

99.9% of Switch games would work just fine in a docked-only SKU with a Pro controller.

Yeah actually I’m just mostly wrong on this. Aside from VOEZ and that Brain Age game, I can’t think of any either.

 

[Juja]

I know they're wizards over at Retro, and I did play Metroid Prime Remastered, but I still have a hard time believing it's going to look this good on the original Switch.

 

[Lionel Richie]

Switch in docked mode did offer a boost in resolution and IQ. It didn't just connect to a TV and had the same exact graphics.

Console warrior (largely Snoy fans) shitposters operate in one way: the Switch, and soon Switch 2, is a handheld device when you’re talking about the absolute dicking it’s handing every other console (and therefore it doesn’t count!!), BUT it’s a console when you want to say it’s underpowered (and therefore it sucks!!).

Truly a Schrödinger’s Cat device for the severely mentally retarded.

 

[Mozza]

This thing is gonna be a beast, and I cannot wait to see the next Mario game running on it.

If you look what Nintendo managed with the very dated Switch hardware, they will simply knock it out of the park with this, even with the most pessimistic of power outcomes. And that is all Nintendo really needs, As Nintendo's own software always drives it's hardware, pure and simple.

 

[Mozza]

This.

Why the fuck did people expect a Nintendo device to start entering the power chat all of a sudden? That would require chip parts to go down in price and Xbox or Sony leaving the console space.

These guys hit a price point that is low enough to be affordable and will guarantee big profit margins on consoles, then they rely on brand recognition and their distinctive game design ethos to sell the things. That's their model.

Because the same core minorities who are obsessed with graphics and frame rates, and always think everybody outside of this bubble buys consoles for the exact reasons as them. When in reality most of the potential audience for the new Switch console could not care less about the power of the system, or that any of this is even being discussed on niche internet forums in the first place.

 

[Kataploom]

I don't know why Nintendo doesn't do that, but I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

I remember Iwata saying NX would be like "brothers", a family of systems (multiple SKUs). Portable, hybrid, home console.

They could launch a docked-only SKU at $299 with Pro controller and call it a day.

Removing the screen, 3 batteries (1 from the console, 2 from the joy-cons) and fusing the dock with the PCB could reduce BOM quite a bit.

Muy assumption is to avoid having multiple versions of the Switch in the market that may confuse the normies. So maybe they thought if they were gonna do it, it's gonna be the form factor that has more chances to sell.

I hope they finally release a TV only console this time around, lowering the prices with different versions seems to be the way to go forward considering suppliers and factories are not lowering the prices as much as they did before COVID.

 

[asdasdasdbb]

If they were going to do a Home only console right now... it'd be for Switch 1. Which btw Nintendo has released new revisions of the older generation after the new one has come out.

I'd still say if they do that, it would be a cheaper Switch Lite instead of a Home one.

 

[peronmls]

Who cares. It’s a Nintendo console. Since when did Nintendo fans care about the internals of a Nintendo console? It’s not like they push the latest technology in their products. Ever.

 

[64gigabyteram]

When in reality most of the potential audience for the new Switch console Videogames could not care less about the power of the system.

fixed

 

[deriks]

Who cares. It’s a Nintendo console. Since when did Nintendo fans care about the internals of a Nintendo console? It’s not like they push the latest technology in their products. Ever.

I can see doing hyperbole, but "ever"?!

NES was built as a computer, so it could access the internet in fucking 1988

Super Nintendo used satellite technology in fucking 1995. Starlink who?

Nintendo 64 used a 64 bit in fucking 1996. AMD n00b

Wii started in 2006 a whole trend of motion sensors, which the VR guys still uses to this day

Graphics are a thing in technology, not everything

 

[LordOcidax]

Who cares. It’s a Nintendo console. Since when did Nintendo fans care about the internals of a Nintendo console? It’s not like they push the latest technology in their products. Ever.

In this thread? Everybody, thats the topic…

 

[SScorpio]

As I said- Youre talking about HANDHELD and when people talk about handheld - only one generation behind is AMAZING AND A BASE PS4 is GREAT!

But people bought into the "hybrid console" thing and they are placing their eggs in the "home console" basket and being pissed off when its not competitive with current home consoles.

The gamecube was competitive- VERY
The Wii was not - it was a gamecube
The wii U EASILY beat the machines already out on its release (the machines stronger than it were not yet out- so it wasnt a generation behind as Wii was - they were moving forward as far as that goes the machine just didnt catch on - bad naming confused people)

The Switch and Switch 2 are handhelds- Nintendo only allows the TV function because they pulled out of the CONSOLE market- so their handhelds do TV connectivity now so they can cater to that market especially since people are much more sedentary and leave home less than they did 20 years + ago. The switch series of machines are handhelds- and people would be HAPPY with even base PS4 power if thats how they saw them - but they dont - they are invested in the "its a console" rhetoric.

The Wii U was released in 2012 and struggled with some 360/PS3 generation game ports due to its architecture. The PS4 and XBO released a year later and blew it away. It should have played every game at 1080p 60fps that the 6-7 year old other consoles on the market ran. But it didn't. You argue the Wii was a Gamecube, we'll the Wii U the exact same architecture and was again a Gamecube with more cores and a faster GPU.

I guess Nintendo also needs to change up their game output. They've been putting out full console style games rather than ones designed around the pick up and play quick sessions of a handheld. You should let Nintendo know they are doing it wrong, I'm sure they have better success if they weren't doing things the wrong way.

 

[ChackanKun]

Right now I just need Nintendo to announce it to know when and how much I will need to spend.

 

[hemo memo]

Right now I just need Nintendo to announce it to know when and how much I will need to spend.

Yes, this long period is honestly tiring. My dream would be if Nintnedo did an Apple style announcement then release after 2 weeks. My god that would be amazing.

 

[Woopah]

these people are what I would call delusional...
a hybrid console is literally just a handheld with optional TV connection. "hybrid console" isn't an actual hardware class, it's a usage concept.
so anyone expecting more than handheld performance is, well, as I said, delusional.

from a device class standpoint the Switch 1 was the successor to the 3DS not to the Wii U.

Switch in docked mode did offer a boost in resolution and IQ. It didn't just connect to a TV and had the same exact graphics.

Especially with Switch 2 having a fan in the dock, it's TV performance is going to be higher than if it was just a handheld with a TV out.

Still won't match an actual home console though.

 

[Minsc]

Especially with Switch 2 having a fan in the dock, it's TV performance is going to be higher than if it was just a handheld with a TV out.

Still won't match an actual home console though.

The fan will help, but look at the Ally X - the silent profile which caps to 10-15W runs significantly slower than the turbo profile which can hit 40W.

As long as they allowed docked to tap in to more watts, you'll get more performance. Naturally 100W will provide way more performance than 10W on the same hardware. Battery life will be non-existent at 100W, so you'd never see that outside a gaming laptop.

 

[Woopah]

The fan will help, but look at the Ally X - the silent profile which caps to 10-15W runs significantly slower than the turbo profile which can hit 40W.

As long as they allowed docked to tap in to more watts, you'll get more performance. Naturally 100W will provide way more performance than 10W on the same hardware. Battery life will be non-existent at 100W, so you'd never see that outside a gaming laptop.

Will be very interesting to see what power draws they go for!

 

[Moses85]

I know they're wizards over at Retro, and I did play Metroid Prime Remastered, but I still have a hard time believing it's going to look this good on the original Switch.

100% Switch 1 Footage

 

[Jinzo Prime]

100% Switch 1 Footage

People are really underestimating what Retro and Next Level are going to do with PS4 grade hardware. Prime 4 looks like Prime Remastered with a 30 fps cap.

 

[Warspite]

100% Switch 1 Footage

When you see those games ported to the switch from the Ps4, thats what Metroid looked to me.

 

[Crystal Winters]

I do not understand tech talk. Is this a good thing? layman's terms please.

 

[asdasdasdbb]

I do not understand tech talk. Is this a good thing? layman's terms please.

Using Samsung 8 nm is bad but it's cheap.

 

[Negotiator]

Using Samsung 8 nm is bad but it's cheap.

Nintendo says it wants to avoid Switch 2 scalping by making enough to meet demand | VGC

President Shuntaro Furukawa says he doesn’t think component shortages will be an issue…

www.videogameschronicle.com

Plenty of cheap wafers...

 

[LordOcidax]

Next week is going to be gold here

 

[Negotiator]

This is an extreme example of what DLSS can do:



Nintendo should stick to 540p -> 1080p for portable mode and 1080p -> 4K for docked mode.

Deep learning super sampling - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This technology is a savior, especially for 3rd party ports.

Regarding CPU usage, video games rarely if ever max out all available (7 I think?) Zen 2 cores on PS5/XBOX Series.

They won't have any issues with 8 beefy ARM cores.

 

[night13x]

The only question that people should be asking after seeing the mobo of the switch 2 -

but can it run crysis?

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

I do not understand tech talk. Is this a good thing? layman's terms please.

If 8nm it will use more energy and run hotter.

Shouldn't be a issue in docked mode.

 

[Ozriel]

As I said- Youre talking about HANDHELD and when people talk about handheld - only one generation behind is AMAZING AND A BASE PS4 is GREAT!

But people bought into the "hybrid console" thing and they are placing their eggs in the "home console" basket and being pissed off when its not competitive with current home consoles.

The gamecube was competitive- VERY
The Wii was not - it was a gamecube
The wii U EASILY beat the machines already out on its release (the machines stronger than it were not yet out- so it wasnt a generation behind as Wii was - they were moving forward as far as that goes the machine just didnt catch on - bad naming confused people)

The Switch and Switch 2 are handhelds- Nintendo only allows the TV function because they pulled out of the CONSOLE market- so their handhelds do TV connectivity now so they can cater to that market especially since people are much more sedentary and leave home less than they did 20 years + ago. The switch series of machines are handhelds- and people would be HAPPY with even base PS4 power if thats how they saw them - but they dont - they are invested in the "its a console" rhetoric.

Not a single person is upset that the Switch 2 isn’t as powerful as the current gen flagships. None.

In fact, because it’s Switch 2, people know exactly what to expect. Power levels under the PS5 and Series X. Only ambiguity is the actual power of the console, which will have a significant impact on third party support.