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NPD December 2011 Sales Results [Up5: Star Wars: The Old Republic Sales]

If UC3 was multiplatform, it would have probably outsold both of those titles.

You have to be kidding me. Skyrim sold 4x more than UC3 last month with a week less time on shelves. Arkham City sold 2x as much (launch month) in 10 days. UC3 is probably tracking close to SR3 or Zelda SS. The demand for UC3 would probably be dulled by the presence of Gears 3 on the 360 side.
 

Opiate

Member
Looking in to next generation: Epic and EA are both claiming that development costs will not go up, but I remain extremely skeptical. Development costs have gone up inside this generation, let alone at the generational jumping points. Further, both companies have obvious incentives to claim that costs will go down (Epic because they sell the Unreal engine, EA because they desperately want to convince investors that they've put their worst behind them).

I think it may be fair to say that overall costs for console development will go down, but that development costs of individual games will continue to go up. That is, each game costs more to make, but they are making less and less games, so the net expenditures are down.

But if outsourcing game development works that well, I may be wrong. The only way to know is to wait and watch third party R&D expenses over time.
 

Opiate

Member
Hence no growth in the core video game playing market, hence the problem with rising development costs each generation, which is what Dalthien is talking about earlier in this thread. I lean toward agreeing with his assessment of the situation.

If no one can get all the new people who bought Wiis (and to a lesser extend, perhaps, Kinect 360s) to buy more games and the next wave of consoles, then there's no growth in the market and the whole industry is in trouble. Gaming will have to downsize or it'll collapse.

This isn't quite right -- gaming is still flourishing, generally speaking. What is not flourishing is console development in particular. The Wii is obviously down by drastic amounts, and even the PS3/360 aren't lighting the world on fire; they're basically keeping pace with the PS2/Xbox.

In comparison, iOS has exploded in popularity, besting any other handheld in gaming revenue in 2011; Android is finally showing signs of gaming software growth; Facebook and social gaming have become a major force to be reckoned with in the gaming world; and Steam continues to gain momentum, producing double or even triple digit growth year after year. In comparison to that, "consoles are as popular as last generation" is not good enough.

And it shows: according to EA, Console's marketshare of the whole gaming market has been hugely reduced, from 80% ten years ago to just 40% now, and still falling.

But revenues are still fine, so there is a real market there and it should be catered to. The problem, then, is that major console publishers like EA and Take 2 did not plan for flat revenues; they assumed that the home console market would continue to dominate -- or even monopolize -- the market as consoles had during the PS2 era. They planned for growth and built for growth, and it's put the home console business in to something of a bind.

The responsible way to handle the console market is to assume slow growth or stagnation, and plan for that; we're unlikely to see the console industry grow significantly beyond the parameters it has now set. Gaming in general will grow, but not consoles in particular. This means budgeting accordingly, but launching new systems in the immediate future will only exacerbate these underlying problems. Console sales stagnation should mandate R&D stagnation, but for a variety of reasons publishers haven't been very good at accomplishing this.
 

Meier

Member
If UC3 was multiplatform, it would have probably outsold both of those titles.

No it wouldn't have. I think that if Uncharted series were on the 360, it would sell more copies there than the PS3, but Skyrim still would have outsold it.
 

kswiston

Member
This isn't quite right -- gaming is still flourishing, generally speaking. What is not flourishing is console development in particular. The Wii is obviously down by drastic amounts, and even the PS3/360 aren't lighting the world on fire; they're basically keeping pace with the PS2/Xbox.

How is it fair to compare PS3/360 sales to PS2/Xbox sales over the course of the entire generation? You can't ignore the fact that the PS2 was the console of choice for younger children and very casual gamers, many of which went to the Wii which you are discounting (and tablets/smartphones) this generation.

360+ps3+wii is well over xbox+ps2+gamecube. Especially in the US.
 

Paracelsus

Member
Opiate: in all seriousness do you believe a scenario in which the tablet/smartphone and to a smaller extent dedicate portable market ends up killing the homeconsole market (like it happened in Japan) is possible 5-10 years from now?
 

spwolf

Member
people really take to seriously. Good numbers for a 7 year console cicle and both PS360 have done well, they are still expensive, both of them, and afaik never the 3rd in the generation sold so well at the end of the generation.

Next year both will probably hit below 199 and they will still do nice numbers.
I have my doubts about WiiU though, i think unless it is well below 299 it won't set the charts on fire either.

I am fine as i do not expect new consoles from Sony or MS before 2013's fall

well both PS3 and 360 are up YoY, right?

Only problem is crash of Wii sales, worldwide.
 

Opiate

Member
How is it fair to compare PS3/360 sales to PS2/Xbox sales over the course of the entire generation? You can't ignore the fact that the PS2 was the console of choice for younger children and very casual gamers, many of which went to the Wii which you are discounting (and tablets/smartphones) this generation.

Because of third party support. We're mostly talking about the fate of software, here, and the Wii was never a major destination for software investment, despite its sales.

360+ps3+wii is well over xbox+ps2+gamecube. Especially in the US.

You forgot the Dreamcast. Worldwide (and this does seem to be a worldwide discussion, not just the US), this is simply not the case: PS3/360/Wii are still below PS2/Xbox/DC/GC. The current generation will eventually pass the previous one, but will do so primarily because the generation is so much longer. You don't have your facts straight, I believe.

Further, "eventually passing the previous generation" is not the bar for success. This is my point: "not shrinking" wasn't the goal. Production costs didn't double under the assumption that the install base would be slightly bigger than last generation.
 

Opiate

Member
Opiate: in all seriousness do you believe a scenario in which the tablet/smartphone and to a smaller extent dedicate portable market ends up killing the homeconsole market (like it happened in Japan) is possible 5-10 years from now?

No -- I was implying that most wounds to the console industry are self inflicted. I believe the console industry could live a long, stable life of ~200-250M consoles sold per generation for quite some time, if handled properly.

The problem is not the existence of other gaming markets, the problem is that the console market built and invested as if it would always be the only game in town and would continue to grow forever, which it has not.

In other words, things would be fine if investment and production costs were kept stable -- you can't keep increasing costs in a stagnant market sector. The increasing costs are where the painful losses and closures of the current generation have come from. Launching new platforms only exacerbates these problems even further.
 

kswiston

Member
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You do realize how much more Skyrim 360 alone has sold right?

There's a chance that the PS3 version of Battlefield 3 outsold Uncharted 3. Considering that Skryrim outsold BF3 overall, I very much doubt that Uncharted 3 would have been anywhere near it as a multiplat title.

The fact that UC3 was an exclusive seriously inflates its PS3 sales numbers. People seem to think that since UC3 sold 700k on PS3, and since 360 games typically sell 60-65% of the multiplat sales total, that UC3 would have broken 2M first month as a multiplat. In reality, the PS3 share would have either been lower, or the game would have performed like Final Fantasy XIII with a much lower than normal 360 take. A multiplat launch MIGHT have pushed Uncharted 3 over 1M first month. Skyrim broke 3M first month.
 
This isn't quite right -- gaming is still flourishing, generally speaking. What is not flourishing is console development in particular. The Wii is obviously down by drastic amounts, and even the PS3/360 aren't lighting the world on fire; they're basically keeping pace with the PS2/Xbox.

In comparison, iOS has exploded in popularity, besting any other handheld in gaming revenue in 2011; Android is finally showing signs of gaming software growth; Facebook and social gaming have become a major force to be reckoned with in the gaming world; and Steam continues to gain momentum, producing double or even triple digit growth year after year. In comparison to that, "consoles are as popular as last generation" is not good enough.

And it shows: according to EA, Console's marketshare of the whole gaming market has been hugely reduced, from 80% ten years ago to just 40% now, and still falling.

But revenues are still fine, so there is a real market there and it should be catered to. The problem, then, is that major console publishers like EA and Take 2 did not plan for flat revenues; they assumed that the home console market would continue to dominate -- or even monopolize -- the market as consoles had during the PS2 era. They planned for growth and built for growth, and it's put the home console business in to something of a bind.

The responsible way to handle the console market is to assume slow growth or stagnation, and plan for that; we're unlikely to see the console industry grow significantly beyond the parameters it has now set. Gaming in general will grow, but not consoles in particular. This means budgeting accordingly, but launching new systems in the immediate future will only exacerbate these underlying problems. Console sales stagnation should mandate R&D stagnation, but for a variety of reasons publishers haven't been very good at accomplishing this.

I think one thing that will help dev costs is that the next gen hardware is pretty much guaranteed to not be radically different compared to what they have become familiar with.

Cell was very unique. From what I recall there weren't any 3+ core processors with SMT in PCs when Xenon was revealed. And Xenos was the first commercially available GPU with unified shading architecture. While they are all "old hat", the latter two have definitely become standard. And at the same time cost and heat constraints on hardware should keep them from making jumps which in turn would "tempt" devs/pubs to spend a large amount of money to push hardware that would have made that kind of jump.
 
You forgot the Dreamcast. Worldwide, this is simply not the case: PS3/360/Wii are still below PS2/Xbox/DC/GC.
Apparently not. As of the start of this gen (November 2005), or as near as makes no difference (Shipped until end of December 2005):

SDC: 10.5m
PS2: 101.0m
XBX: 24.0m
NGC: 20.5m

Total: 156.0m


Now this gen:

PS3: 55.5m
Wii: 89.5m
360: 66.0m

Total: 211.0m... and that's going to go up by at least 10m when Nintendo and Sony announce their next results.

Even if you take the figures for last gen right up until now you only get 209.5m. Not sure where you're getting your figures from.
 
I don't think the picture is bleak at all.

I agree with Opiate that there are certainly some self inflicted wounds though. Frankly, a lot of publishers bet on the wrong horse this generation or weren't willing to spread their bets.

The Wii has sold upwards of 90 million consoles and is still way above the $100 mark, a fact that belies its innards. Were Nintendo getting the third party support they should have gotten, and were Nintendo not trying to kill off the console early to usher in Wii-U, it would doubtless have carried on in a much stronger fashion. In fact, I do think they can milk more than a few tens of millions in sales from it this year if the console sees a price cut.

The problem is that this overbearingly strong Wii doesn't really help software sales a great deal, because third party vendors don't always have their best wares out for it. While we're at ~200m consoles sold this generation, games made for the HD twins are selling to a market of half that - or in the case of platform exlusives, maybe only a quarter. So there's a market fragmentation to consider here. But that system shock to the market aside, the 360 and PS3 have proven that they have the legs to go on. As other posters have indicated, the big drop this year is largely attributable to the Wii -- which lets not mince words here - still sold in excess of a million units in North America in December. 360 and PS3 are both experiencing growth, and will continue to, they are still at a psychologically premium price point and can only come down as time goes on. 3DS has joined the party and Nintendo have righted that particular ship, in February Vita, and sometime this year Wii-U -- clearly then, between price cuts to existing consoles and new and exciting products hitting the shelves, the market has plenty of ammunition with which to rebound.

Opiate points out Riticello's quote about Consoles only being 40% of the market but that is not to say the market has shrunk -- in terms of revenues developers can now hunt the market has definitely grown and expanded. The manufacturers of the HD twins might have blown a few billion on the investment, but those consoles are returning (or have returned) to profitability, and Nintendo have had their best generation in 20 years. There's no doubt the economics of the game are changing and that new channels of distribution are shaking things up, and in the console space - its undeniable that costs have been driving some devs out of business, but the talent never goes away - it just finds other work. The industry is growing, our hobby is probably more brilliant than its ever been, and consoles aren't going anywhere just yet.
 

Opiate

Member
Apparently not. As of the start of this gen (November 2005), or as near as makes no difference (Shipped until end of December 2005):

SDC: 10.5m
PS2: 101.0m
XBX: 24.0m
NGC: 20.5m

Total: 156.0m


Now this gen:

PS3: 55.5m
Wii: 90.0m
360: 66.0m

Total: 211.5m... and that's going to go up by at least 10m when Nintendo and Sony announce their next results.

Even if you take the figures for last gen right up until now you only get 209.5m. Not sure where you're getting your figures from.

Where are you getting that Wii figure? I have 86.0. My totals are:

209.5M (PS2 Gen)
206.5M (Wii Gen)

You could make the argument that this includes PS2 sales post-2005, which is valid and worth considering.

Again, I absolutely agree that this generation will pass the previous one, but the growth is minimal, both compared to previous generations and to other gaming market segments like iOS and Facebook, which have grown from absolutely nothing in to highly competitive markets in the span of only a few years.
 

kswiston

Member
Because of third party support. We're mostly talking about the fate of software, here, and the Wii was never a major destination for software investment, despite its sales.

You forgot the Dreamcast. Worldwide (and this does seem to be a worldwide discussion, not just the US), this is simply not the case: PS3/360/Wii are still below PS2/Xbox/DC/GC. The current generation will eventually pass the previous one, but will do so primarily because the generation is so much longer. You don't have your facts straight, I believe.

Obviously we need to use shipments since worldwide sales numbers don't exist:

PS2: 153M in July, lets say 158M now to be safe.
Xbox: 24M
Gamecube: 22M
Dreamcast: 11M
TOTAL = 211M

PS3: 55M in September, lets say 60M currently
360 = 66M
Wii = 89M in September. Higher now
TOTAL = 215M not counting whatever Wii shipments were made in December.

40 million of those PS2 units were shipped after the PS3 was launched. The current gen consoles should at LEAST have another 40M units left in them. Likely more, since we won't have successors to all three consoles until next year at the earliest.

There won't be a gigantic growth of home hardware sales this generation, but it will be over 20%. Japan did not help things this generation. Japan's home console market shrunk by about 10M units this gen. Around a third of last gen's sales total.


I am almost positive software sales are way up as well. The fact that developer costs have skyrocketed is another matter.
 

Opiate

Member
That's their latest reported shipped figure from October (it's actually 89.5, I just double checked it).

As I said before though, in reality that's even higher now as their (Nintendo's and Sony's) holiday shipments aren't yet reported on.

Yes, absolutely. The PS2 will also have sold more (albeit much less for obvious reasons).

This squabbling, however, only highlights my point; we're having a discussion about whether this generation has surpassed last generation at all (particularly for third party software designers), which only shows how little growth there has been.

It's like arguing over whether you grew .5 inches when all the boys around you grew 3 feet; whether you grew .5 inches or didn't grow at all, relative to the other boys around you, you're effectively stagnant either way. Further, if you bought clothes on the assumption that you would also grow 3 feet, you suddenly discover that you've allocated your resources poorly.
 

ASIS

Member
Why are people completely forgetting the economic crisis that plagued not only the states, but the entire world? Factoring that in, along with the rising popularity of portable games and the ridiculous console prices it's no wonder the growth isn't as big as last generation's.

I believe the consoles are fine. They just fell into some problems that shouldn't be repeated in the future.
 

Opiate

Member
Obviously we need to use shipments since worldwide sales numbers don't exist:

PS2: 153M in July, lets say 158M now to be safe.
Xbox: 24M
Gamecube: 22M
Dreamcast: 11M
TOTAL = 211M

PS3: 55M in September, lets say 60M currently
360 = 66M
Wii = 89M in September. Higher now
TOTAL = 215M not counting whatever Wii shipments were made in December.

I agree, the current generation is likely to surpass the old one. I said that. But you're making assumptions here; let's not say 158M PS2/60M PS3/etc until those totals come. When they do, I fully expect the current generation will have equaled or surpassed the one before.

40 million of those PS2 units were shipped after the PS3 was launched. The current gen consoles should at LEAST have another 40M units left in them. Likely more, since we won't have successors to all three consoles until next year at the earliest.

There won't be a gigantic growth of home hardware sales this generation, but it will be over 20%. Japan did not help things this generation. Japan's home console market shrunk by about 10M units this gen. Around a third of last gen's sales total.

Absolutely. But again, it will do so in large part because of an extended generational lifespan. There is significant opportunity cost associated with that choice. As the consoles continue to age and PCs/iPhones/Tablets continue to get updated, consoles will ebb market share even more significantly in 2012 than they did in 2010/2011. But yes, at least it will ensure this generation surpasses the last one by a notable margin.

I am almost positive software sales are way up as well. The fact that developer costs have skyrocketed is another matter.

I'm not convinced they are at all. But yes, development costs have skyrocketed. That is not another matter; it is central to my point.

Stagnating console sales are fine if investment costs also stagnate. Stagnating console sales are not fine if investment costs continue to rise.
 

deleted

Member
Because of third party support. We're mostly talking about the fate of software, here, and the Wii was never a major destination for software investment, despite its sales.



You forgot the Dreamcast. Worldwide (and this does seem to be a worldwide discussion, not just the US), this is simply not the case: PS3/360/Wii are still below PS2/Xbox/DC/GC. The current generation will eventually pass the previous one, but will do so primarily because the generation is so much longer. You don't have your facts straight, I believe.

Further, "eventually passing the previous generation" is not the bar for success. This is my point: "not shrinking" wasn't the goal. Production costs didn't double under the assumption that the install base would be slightly bigger than last generation.

But if you include the Dreamcast, you have to consider, that the last generation also startet at 1999 (1998 for Japan).
That would put last gen at 7 years, which is where the current one is right now - so with 2011 numbers this gen should be way past the previous for 7 years.
 
Opiate moving goalposts itt

If only a fourth console had launched this gen and collapsed to $50 a year and a half after launch, we could call this a healthy gen.
 

kswiston

Member
Yes, absolutely. The PS2 will also have sold more (albeit much less for obvious reasons).

This squabbling, however, only highlights my point; we're having a discussion about whether this generation has surpassed last generation at all (particularly for third party software designers), which only shows how little growth there has been.

The Playstation 2's continued sales over a 12 year period skews the numbers. Using ps2 shipments for the first 6 years (115M) and the LTDs of the other consoles (they were all dead by 2007 anyhow) you have 172M vs ~210M not counting 4th quarter sales for two of the 3 systems. So at least a 22% growth that will be closer to 28% (maybe more) when we factor in holiday shipments of PS3/Wii.

Looking at the status of hardware shipments for the PS1 generation as of Dec 2001 (when the Gamecube and Xbox launched), I get around 130M units between the PS1, N64 and Saturn. So over a similar timeframe/console transition point, the PS2 generation was 32% larger than the PS1 generation. Not all that different to this generation's growth.


Your biggest point is that Development costs have grown at a disproportionate rate to the growth of the console market. I definitely agree with you. I also agree that alternate forms of gaming will be a lot more important going forward than they were in the PS2 generation. However, the console market is still growing as of this generation. We have way more titles breaking the 5M shipment barrier worldwide than we did last generation. Consoles also have additional streams of revenue through digital distribution, and things like Xbox Live Gold that they lacked in the PS2 generation.

Developers need to get a handle on HD game budgets, and better manage risk vs reward, but I don't see how it would benefit them to abandon consoles in favour of Tablet/smartphone/social gaming. Those platforms have shown in recent months that they are not immune to missed software sales targets and losses either.
 

Opiate

Member
Opiate moving goalposts itt

If only a fourth console had launched this gen and collapsed to $50 a year and a half after launch, we could call this a healthy gen.

I'm definitely not moving goalposts. My point from the very beginning was that sales of consoles are not showing significant growth, that most of the growth that will occur will be a consequence of an extended generational lifespan, and that this growth is poor particularly in comparison to the explosive growth of iOS, Facebook, and others.

Further, it's clear that software developers planned for and expected significantly better growth than we're getting, which is why losses have been so significant and layoffs and closures have been so frequent.

That's very clearly what I've been saying all along, and I don't feel like I've budged much from that position. I think the most important point offered thus far is that the PS2's sales include the last 5 years, which is a significant factor one must consider. Otherwise, I don't see much movement.
 

Opiate

Member
The Playstation 2's continued sales over a 12 year period skews the numbers. Using ps2 shipments for the first 6 years (115M) and the LTDs of the other consoles (they were all dead by 2007 anyhow) you have 172M vs ~210M not counting 4th quarter sales for two of the 3 systems. So at least a 22% growth that will be closer to 28% (maybe more) when we factor in holiday shipments of PS3/Wii.

Already assisted by a longer generational lifespan. The Xbox and Gamecube were dead and buried, for example, by this point. So was the DC, but that's a different animal (because it was not replaced, there is no measurable opportunity cost associated with that choice).

Looking at the status of hardware shipments for the PS1 generation as of Dec 2001 (when the Gamecube and Xbox launched), I get around 130M units between the PS1, N64 and Saturn. So over a similar timeframe/console transition point, the PS2 generation was 32% larger than the PS1 generation. Not all that different to this generation's growth.

Absolutely, this deceleration is not new. Home consoles have been slowing down for some time. The last real explosively growing generation was the PS1 one.
 

kswiston

Member
Already assisted by a longer generational lifespan. The Xbox and Gamecube were dead and buried, for example.



Absolutely, this deceleration is not new. Home consoles have been slowing down for some time. The last real explosively growing generation was the PS1 one.

I addressed some of your newer points in an edit to my previous post. Basically, I agree with some of your points, but don't think the console market is done growing yet.
 
I agree, the current generation is likely to surpass the old one. I said that. But you're making assumptions here; let's not say 158M PS2/60M PS3/etc until those totals come. When they do, I fully expect the current generation will have equaled or surpassed the one before.

He doesn't need to, the figures I've given are the latest reported by the manufacturers, and with those figures we can see that in 6 years the machines of this gen have outsold (by 1.5m units) what's essentially 13 years (starting at the DC, ending now) of last gen sales.

That's before you even take into account the significantly improved handheld performance of this gen vs last (or I guess now last gen vs the gen before that).
 

tim.mbp

Member
I'm definitely not moving goalposts. My point from the very beginning was that sales of consoles are not showing significant growth, that most of the growth that will occur will be a consequence of an extended generational lifespan, and that this growth is poor particularly in comparison to the explosive growth of iOS, Facebook, and others.

Any reason why you're not including handhelds in the discussion?
 

kswiston

Member
Also, most of the best selling games of all time are from this gen. Especially in the US. What games broke 10M worldwide last gen? The Pokemon, GTA and Gran Turismo series? From this year alone, Call of Duty, Skyrim, Battlefield 3, and maybe FIFA are over 10M, and Mario Kart 7 will get there over the next year.

This generation has been hard on mid-range HD titles due to their costs, but the opportunity to make money on a AAA smash hit is better than it has ever been. Mario Kart Wii outsold the previous three console games in its series combined. Nintendo software in general exploded.
 

AniHawk

Member
So with 600K for 14th place, is it safe to say Skyward Sword had around a million in December?

we don't know where zelda lies among the combined platforms chart, and whether or not the old republic is placed in the single platform chart or the combined platforms chart.
wazoo said:
it is over 1M in the US, there is even a PR from Nintendo about it.

i think this just means the game hit the 1m ltd mark.
 
I'm definitely not moving goalposts. My point from the very beginning was that sales of consoles are not showing significant growth, that most of the growth that will occur will be a consequence of an extended generational lifespan, and that this growth is poor particularly in comparison to the explosive growth of iOS, Facebook, and others.

Further, it's clear that software developers planned for and expected significantly better growth than we're getting, which is why losses have been so significant and layoffs and closures have been so frequent.

That's very clearly what I've been saying all along, and I don't feel like I've budged much from that position. I think the most important point offered thus far is that the PS2's sales include the last 5 years, which is a significant factor one must consider. Otherwise, I don't see much movement.

In order for your original point of this generation representing minimal growth over last gen, all we have to do is

-count twelve years of ps2 vs 6 years of current gen
-count a thirteen year old console that was $50 1.5 years after its release and whose user base represents near 100% overlap with its three competitors
-ignore handhelds
-ignore digital distro
-ignore apple
-include Japan's undeniable contraction in a thread about US sales
-Pay no mind to the presence of three fully viable home consoles versus one viable console and three consoles you admit were completely dead before their gen was fully wrapped
 

Jokeropia

Member
Perhaps I'm out of touch these days but why is everyone saying it's disastrous that the 360 sold 1.7million?, that sounds like a high number to me, or is it just because that it's down YoY?

No, this is what's so remarkable about these numbers:
The 3DS and the DS were the only platforms to realize a unit sales increase versus November, which is highly unusual since typically all platforms enjoy a lift in the biggest month at retail.”
Sales being down in December compared to November is an almost unthinkable scenario, and that it happened to all consoles this year is crazy.

Nice to see USA coming through for Zelda, though.
 
No, this is what's so remarkable about these numbers:Sales being down in December compared to November is an almost unthinkable scenario, and that it happened to all consoles this year is crazy.

Nice to see USA coming through for Zelda, though.

Black Friday is the new Christmas.
 

RPGamer92

Banned
If Xbox Next comes out in fall 2013, what are the chances that MS price drops the 360 to less than $200 to get one last holiday surge out of it?
 
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