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[squatingyeti]

My only gripe with the Wii controls stems more from the way I play games I guess. I sit comfortably on my couch and put my feet up on my coffee table. With PS3 or 360 I can sit my hands on my lap with the controller and play. With the Wii, that just doesn't work. I find I have to adjust the way I set myself up and I just can't play the Wii for extended periods of time.

First person to say you're supposed to get exercise while playing the Wii gets cockpunched. Just because you and your friends are lazy slobs, doesn't mean I need the Wii so I don't get fat.

 

[speculawyer]

What is the Wii not getting? Looking at the current + future lineup, I see RPGs, shooters, sports, etc. I'm not saying that the 360 doesn't have a superior lineup (it does), but I think the Wii's lineup will cover the spectrum as well.

GTA IV (maybe older GTAs eventually), Bioshock, good basketball, any hockey (VC doesn't count), sim baseball, high end racers (GT5, Forza, PGR, etc.), etc. But honestly, it doesn't need a lot of that stuff since the people that buy that stuff would buy it for the 360/PS3 instead.


And that is not to say the Wii lacks great titles . . . it has great titles not available anywhere else (Zelda, Super Paper, Super Mario Galaxy, Wii Sports, Resident Evil 4 w/cool controls, Brawl, Metroid, . . . Carnival Games. )

 

[Forgotten Ancient]

We're talking about quality games for the core gamer, so i don't know why should we leave 1st party out of that... Wii has the stronger "core" first party games in its 10 months (Zelda, Paper, Metroid..)... so it evens out..

I mean, eh, I feel weird and uncomfortable saying what I'm about to say: If we're to count Zelda and Super Paper Mario as Wii games, it's almost as fair as calling GOW2 a PS3 game.

I know they're different, but the optimization of the Wiimote in SPM and Zelda was pretty bleh. It felt tacked on and a band-aid to make up for an otherwise mediocre traditional game experience.

Besides, I believe the 360 handles casual games better than anyone else as well through XBLA.

FUCK I sound like a 360 fanboy. I'm admittedly feeling a little buyer's Wiimorse for my Wii, but the next 3 months contain probably the best lineup for any system (for me) ever. If the Wii trends like the DS did, I"ll be ecstatic. If third parties would get off their asses, it could even surpass it. But comparing the first 10 months for each system, I'm most disappointed in the Wii's offerings.

 

[felipeko]

GTA IV (maybe older GTAs eventually), Bioshock, good basketball, any hockey (VC doesn't count), sim baseball, high end racers (GT5, Forza, PGR, etc.), etc. But honestly, it doesn't need a lot of that stuff since the people that buy that stuff would buy it for the 360/PS3 instead.


And that is not to say the Wii lacks great titles . . . it has great titles not available anywhere else (Zelda, Super Paper, Super Mario Galaxy, Wii Sports, Resident Evil 4 w/cool controls, Brawl, Metroid, . . . Carnival Games. )

There will be no system with everything this gen.. (i know you aren't blaming) but why a lot of people blame Wii because of that?

 

[birdchili]

i'd say if you combine released games with announced ones (and assume everything will be localized, and even discounting nintendo dev'd stuff), i'm liking the wii lineup as much as the competition, and i'm easily a core gamer (with somewhat "quirky" tastes, probably). this is very-much a matter of opinion - there are some really interesting third party wii games in development that we know about.

 

[Arde5643]

My only gripe with the Wii controls stems more from the way I play games I guess. I sit comfortably on my couch and put my feet up on my coffee table. With PS3 or 360 I can sit my hands on my lap with the controller and play. With the Wii, that just doesn't work. I find I have to adjust the way I set myself up and I just can't play the Wii for extended periods of time.

First person to say you're supposed to get exercise while playing the Wii gets cockpunched. Just because you and your friends are lazy slobs, doesn't mean I need the Wii so I don't get fat.

Uhh..what kind of games are you playing that you're not able to sit down while playing it?

There's a lot of wrong with what you said above, but I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt first.

 

[Threi]

My only gripe with the Wii controls stems more from the way I play games I guess. I sit comfortably on my couch and put my feet up on my coffee table. With PS3 or 360 I can sit my hands on my lap with the controller and play. With the Wii, that just doesn't work. I find I have to adjust the way I set myself up and I just can't play the Wii for extended periods of time.

First person to say you're supposed to get exercise while playing the Wii gets cockpunched. Just because you and your friends are lazy slobs, doesn't mean I need the Wii so I don't get fat.

I seriously don't get why people have such a hard time using the Wii controller. I am not exaggerating when i say it is more comfortable to use than a traditional controller, sitting back, standing up, or lying in bed.

 

[squatingyeti]

Uhh..what kind of games are you playing that you're not able to sit down while playing it?

There's a lot of wrong with what you said above, but I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt first.

I'm the only one that has trouble with pointing towards the bottom of the screen if you rest your hands on your lap and your feet are on the coffee table? My problem is it's uncomfortable to point towards the bottom of the screen. I've messed with every setting. I've tried moving the sensor bar below the TV instead of on top, and nothing has made a difference.

 

[jarrod]

I mean, eh, I feel weird and uncomfortable saying what I'm about to say: If we're to count Zelda and Super Paper Mario as Wii games, it's almost as fair as calling GOW2 a PS3 game.

I'd say it's actually far more comparable to Kameo and PD0 (ie: previous console projects that were cannibalized for the new platform). Actually, the Rare twins moved between 3 consoles even.


And Nintendo easily has the strongest 1st party "core gamer" lineup for year one. No question. Sony's probably a distant second, with Microsoft limping along in 3rd.

Fortunately for the HD twins though, it's the opposite for 3rd party wares.

 

[Arde5643]

Pretty much - yes.

I know that dark4x has the problem with Wii sensor because of sunlight - basically the way his place is situated, it makes the sunlight interferes with the wii sensor bar's reception.

Because I basically play Metroid Prime 3 on the sofa, the nunchuck sitting on my lap, the remote on the sofa hand-part. However, during heated boss battles, I usually place the wiimote on top of my lap for more accuracy and quickness.

 

[No6]

To be fair, what did 360 have as of September 2006... PGR3 and RR6? Anything else?

Need for Speed, Burnout, Test Drive Unlimited and Moto GP 06. Also comedy Full Auto.

Here's the difference; Heavenly Sword was made by a developers whose previous credit was Kung Fu Chaos. Lair was made by Factor 5. Zack and Wiki is made by Capcom--and even if you go down to the staff level, Eichiro Sasaki is pretty competent.

Yeah, you need to go down to the staff level because "Capcom" is a huge company. The Capcom that made Dead Rising or Street Fighter or Megaman is not necessarily the Capcom that's making Z&W. And that still doesn't address your attempt to make Z&W on par with the other major franchises (SH5 is the only real anomoly on that list).

 

[VanMardigan]

Yeah, I don't like having to point at the screen or doing gestures. It was fun at first, but I mostly hate doing it now. Even the motions in Corruption felt gimmicky. At the same time, I know my wife and my nephew much prefer the more involved input Wii provides.

But I've known that the Wii wasn't aimed at gamers like me for a long time now. It may be my secondary (or even tertiary) console at some point, but it probably won't be my main console like every other Nintendo console has been.

It makes no sense to whine or resent, because it's obvious that Nintendo had to do this to survive, and I'm happy they'll be around to keep making games, even if they're not for me (for the most part). I bought a Wii for my nephew's bday and I plan to confiscate it to play Mario Galaxy. He can have it back after that.

 

[No6]

I'd say it's actually far more comparable to Kameo and PD0 (ie: previous console projects that were cannibalized for the new platform). Actually, the Rare twins moved between 3 consoles even.

I started Zelda on the GC and finished it on the Wii. The GOW2 comparison is much more apt.

 

[jarrod]

Need for Speed, Burnout, Test Drive Unlimited and Moto GP 06. Also comedy Full Auto.

Well, Wii's also got NFS, Driver, Cars (lolz kiddie) and a ton of assy Ubiports (plus tons of VC releases)... I was trying to keep it top tier moreso, though Moto GP did slip my mind.

Yeah, you need to go down to the staff level because "Capcom" is a huge company. The Capcom that made Dead Rising or Street Fighter or Megaman is not necessarily the Capcom that's making Z&W. And that still doesn't address your attempt to make Z&W on par with the other major franchises (SH5 is the only real anomoly on that list).

To be more specific, Z&W's being done by the Ultimate Ghous N' Ghosts team. They rock.

Same production studio as Dead Rising, Onimusha and the (good) Megaman games.

 

[squatingyeti]

Pretty much - yes.

I know that dark4x has the problem with Wii sensor because of sunlight - basically the way his place is situated, it makes the sunlight interferes with the wii sensor bar's reception.

Because I basically play Metroid Prime 3 on the sofa, the nunchuck sitting on my lap, the remote on the sofa hand-part. However, during heated boss battles, I usually place the wiimote on top of my lap for more accuracy and quickness.

I dunno then. Maybe my setup is just screwed. I've got a 61" LED DLP from samsung and I sit about 10' away on my couch. The Sensor bar is positioned on top of the TV, but I don't get issues of the bar not picking up my movement, it just seems harder to move toward the bottom edge. I feel like I lose accuracy and I work harder when I'm down there. Any ideas?

 

[jarrod]

I started Zelda on the GC and finished it on the Wii. The GOW2 comparison is much more apt.

Funny, Rare started Kameo on GC and finished it on 360.

Besides, if ports don't count... what notable 360 racers were there year one besides RR6 and PGR3 again?

 

[Forgotten Ancient]

I'd say it's actually far more comparable to Kameo and PD0 (ie: previous console projects that were cannibalized for the new platform). Actually, the Rare twins moved between 3 consoles even.


And Nintendo easily has the strongest 1st party "core gamer" lineup for year one. No question. Sony's probably a distant second, with Microsoft limping along in 3rd.

Fortunately for the HD twins though, it's the opposite for 3rd party wares.

The distinction is that those two games were, as you said, cannibalized for the old platform. Zelda and SPM were pretty much straight ports with a different control method ant 16x9 support. They weren't cannibalized, they were copied and pasted.

Unless you think PD0 and Kameo that were released could've been done on the Xbox but were scrapped last minute to make the 360 launch. Then yeah, I'd say that's a valid comparison.

 

[Arde5643]

To be more specific, Z&W's being done by the Ultimate Ghous N' Ghosts team. They rock.

Same production studio as Dead Rising, Onimusha and the (good) Megaman games.

Whooo!! I'm already for sure getting this game on day 1, but this confirmation just makes me more excited for the game.

 

[Threi]

I dunno then. Maybe my setup is just screwed. I've got a 61" LED DLP from samsung and I sit about 10' away on my couch. The Sensor bar is positioned on top of the TV, but I don't get issues of the bar not picking up my movement, it just seems harder to move toward the bottom edge. I feel like I lose accuracy and I work harder when I'm down there. Any ideas?

Change the setting in the wii menu to "below TV". You will have to aim above the TV, but it should fix the problem.

P.S. No6 and jarrod: STOP WITH THE FUCKING HALF ASSED ARGUMENTS. Both of you put out lists and choose to argue with one specific game listed.

"give me an example of games that fit criteria x."

"a, b, and c. Now give me examples that fit criteria y."

"NUH UH C DOESN'T COUNT TRY AGAIN...and q, r, and s."

"WELL IF C DOESN'T WORK THEN NEITHER DOES S. DUR HUR HURRRR"

god you two are pissing me off...

 

[squatingyeti]

Change the setting in the wii menu to "below TV". You will have to aim above the TV, but it should fix the problem.

So, change it to below, but leave it above? I can try that out tonight when I get home.

 

[Forgotten Ancient]

Aside from the AAAAA titles, it seems apparent that the Wii wasn't made for me. Nintendo is still my favorite company in the business, but the proof lies in the amount of play time I give each console. For the past 3 generations now, my main source of gaming has been done on other systems despite owning Nintendo's as well.

I miss the old Nintendo where I could get great first and third party support in the same box; The DS and GBA being wonderful exceptions. Sony's first party titles don't grip me like Nintendo's do, and 360's first party games don't cater to me much at all(not a shooter fan really).

The obvious answer is to have all 3 (and I will), but it's kind of weird feeling for the first time like Nintendo's starting to lose me with their plan. They're obviously very successful right now and I'm happy to see that, but I'm really not digging the control method for standard playing and I feel I'm starting to become a bit of a graphics whore. I guess I always was, but the DS and Wii put me in temporary denial.

But I'm not a Wii troll. I'm just troubled that for the first 10 months I've been more excited for their sales charts and virtual console than any actual software for the system. And believe me, I've tried.

 

[Threi]

So, change it to below, but leave it above? I can try that out tonight when I get home.

All it really does is make the cursor lower on the screen, so you will just have to aim a bit higher. It will take getting used to, and you might not like it because you won't be pointing "exactly" at the TV, but it should work better in your case.


and to Forgotten Ancient:
I am not a fan of handhelds so forgive me if i seem ignorant on the subject, but i was under the impression that Nintendo had the same design language for DS and Wii, and that they are both tracking the same way in terms of sales and games (And that the DS has much, much better games because it has been out a good while longer). What exactly is the Wii doing that is so different from the DS?

 

[Kevtones]

Have we gotten numbers for:


Persona 3
Escape From Bug Island!

 

[jarrod]

The distinction is that those two games were, as you said, cannibalized for the old platform. Zelda and SPM were pretty much straight ports with a different control method ant 16x9 support. They weren't cannibalized, they were copied and pasted.

Po-tate-oh and po-tat-oh. In both cases it's a really matter of mostly conversion versus ground up R&D. That's the way it goes for launches generally... whether it involves reworking assets and models or reworking interfaces and mechanics, it's really the most similar situation.

Certainly much more comparable than GOW2.

Unless you think PD0 and Kameo that were released could've been done on the Xbox but were scrapped last minute to make the 360 launch. Then yeah, I'd say that's a valid comparison.

In terms of design... sure, they could've been on Xbox. Assets would've been scaled back, and some moments might'v had to be reworked (I'm thinking specifically the Kameo horseback scene with hundreds of models) but that's about it really. Nothing the Xbox couldn't handle honestly.

In the new Edge, a Rare employee mentions that it (surpringly) took their art team just two weeks to upscale the art assets for Kameo too iirc. Sounds like it wasn't even that huge a task for moving their stuff to 360...

 

[gkryhewy]

they are both tracking the same way in terms of sales and games (And that the DS has much, much better games because it has been out a good while longer). What exactly is the Wii doing that is so different from the DS?

Wii is tracking much better is terms of sales (IIRC), but I think you're right overall.

 

[mepaco]

GTA IV (maybe older GTAs eventually), Bioshock, good basketball, any hockey (VC doesn't count), sim baseball, high end racers (GT5, Forza, PGR, etc.), etc. But honestly, it doesn't need a lot of that stuff since the people that buy that stuff would buy it for the 360/PS3 instead.


And that is not to say the Wii lacks great titles . . . it has great titles not available anywhere else (Zelda, Super Paper, Super Mario Galaxy, Wii Sports, Resident Evil 4 w/cool controls, Brawl, Metroid, . . . Carnival Games. )

I wasn't really talking about particular titles (GTA & Bioshock) but more genres. Wii will get shooters and sandbox titles. It will probably get a high end racer or two (though I agree that people who buy those would most likely not get them for Wii). I think Wii will get some good titles to represent every type of game, though some won't do very well (see Madden or a hypothetical GTA) since the people interested in those games also crave the graphics.

 

[TheRipDizz]

Are the Madden figures for August 2006 still public? I wanna see how much they sold last year with the PS2/360 version compared to this year.

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7200&Itemid=2&limit=1&limitstart=1

Madden looks like it has lost very little because Wii gamers shunded it and should see next to no loss thriving on PS3 and the 360. Wii gamer apathy fallout: failed confirmed.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Could we see sales of Madden on Microsoft SKUs since 2001 (yes, singular SKU until the year 2005)?

 

[jvm]

Could we see sales of Madden on Microsoft SKUs since 2001 (yes, singular SKU until the year 2005)?

I only have the data in the graph above. You can ask around, I suppose, but if that data is out there, it might be the kind of thing that we're not supposed to post here. Ask sonycowboy?

 

[LCGeek]

I wasn't really talking about particular titles (GTA & Bioshock) but more genres. Wii will get shooters and sandbox titles. It will probably get a high end racer or two (though I agree that people who buy those would most likely not get them for Wii). I think Wii will get some good titles to represent every type of game, though some won't do very well (see Madden or a hypothetical GTA) since the people interested in those games also crave the graphics.

The argument that GTA and Madden gamers love graphics is so downright dumb. GTA isn't a graphical pusher outside of the largess of environment it sucks when actually look at for graphics pc or console. Madden isn't a looker and never has been if people think either of the two are good looking titles than they need their eyes checked.

 

[mepaco]

The argument that GTA and Madden gamers love graphics is so downright dumb. GTA isn't a graphical pusher outside of the largess of environment it sucks when actually look at for graphics pc or console. Madden isn't a looker and never has been if people think either of the two are good looking titles than they need their eyes checked.

All of the people that I know that buy Madden every year are graphics whores. Outside of the updated graphics (and roster update) there isn't a point to buying it over and over again so I think it matters more then you think. The GTA thing is actually a mistake on my part. I was thinking Gran Turismo and added the extra A. Sorry about that.

 

[Beer Monkey]

All of the people that I know that buy Madden every year are graphics whores. Outside of the updated graphics (and roster update) there isn't a point to buying it over and over again so I think it matters more then you think. The GTA thing is actually a mistake on my part. I was thinking Gran Turismo and added the extra A. Sorry about that.

Uh, that's no small thing.

 

[Slavik81]

I mean, eh, I feel weird and uncomfortable saying what I'm about to say: If we're to count Zelda and Super Paper Mario as Wii games, it's almost as fair as calling GOW2 a PS3 game.

Uh huh. And Halo doesn't count as an Xbox title. It was really Mac game.
Next.

 

[mepaco]

Uh, that's no small thing.

Wha? Maybe for some people but paying $50+ just for updated rosters is ridiculous (even more than 50+ for updated graphics). I'll never understand it.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Wha? Maybe for some people but paying $50+ just for updated rosters is ridiculous (even more than 50+ for updated graphics). I'll never understand it.

I don't exactly understand it either (as a non-sports gamer), but people paying $50-$60 for updated rosters is as common as dirt. Several of my friends bitch like hell about it every year and still do it. I'm sure they aren't alone.

 

[mepaco]

I don't exactly understand it either (as a non-sports gamer), but people paying $50-$60 for updated rosters is as common as dirt. Several of my friends bitch like hell about it every year and still do it. I'm sure they aren't alone.

No, I don't think they are, but I also think updated graphics play a part as well. In any case, it is a blatant money grab. With the online connectivity of the current crop of consoles there is no reason that roster updates shouldn't be downloadable (or even change as the season progresses). I know everyone complains about the mini-game collections and trash that is being ported to Wii just to make a quick buck, but outside of generational leaps, I have to wonder how much it really costs them to put out the new version of Madden every year. What a cash cow!

 

[titiklabingapat]

It makes you wonder whether or not Madden really was a "casual" game to begin with.

Maybe not so much graphic whores, but the general type of play. Graphic whores are still a subset of the core gamer demo anyway and the term only really came into prominence and became synonymous with "hardcore" during the advent of the Wii.

Madden people and those who tend to play traditional videogames do overlap, they tend to be males and ranging in age from 18 to 35.

 

[dammitmattt]

It is hilarious seeing non-sports gamers attempting to describe new versions of Madden as "roster updates." The only times this actually happens is when Madden is released for a last generation console when you are two or more generations into the new console cycle. The jump from Madden 06 > Madden 07 > Madden 08 on the 360 has been enormous, and they still have a lot of work to do for 09 and beyond.

Don't put something down just because you don't understand it.

dammitmattt - 33 of my PS2 games are mech games, jrpg's or strategy rpg's. That's why I acknowledge myself as a "niche" core gamer. Next week I will get PS2 game #40, Soul Nomad, a strategy RPG.

You're really not that weird. I know people just like you! I just don't see how in the world the Wii is filling your needs better in these areas more than the 360. However, the type of games you like are in abundance on the PS2, DS, and PSP, so if I were in your shoes none of the next-gen consoles would really appeal to me that much.

My only gripe with the Wii controls stems more from the way I play games I guess. I sit comfortably on my couch and put my feet up on my coffee table. With PS3 or 360 I can sit my hands on my lap with the controller and play. With the Wii, that just doesn't work. I find I have to adjust the way I set myself up and I just can't play the Wii for extended periods of time.

First person to say you're supposed to get exercise while playing the Wii gets cockpunched. Just because you and your friends are lazy slobs, doesn't mean I need the Wii so I don't get fat.

I feel the same way. For games like Metroid Prime 3 (which is my favorite Wii game yet) where you have to be constantly pointing at the screen, I always find myself fidgeting around for about 15 minutes at the beginning of a play session before I get comfortable.

 

[StevieP]

It is hilarious seeing non-sports gamers attempting to describe new versions of Madden as "roster updates." The only times this actually happens is when Madden is released for a last generation console when you are two or more generations into the new console cycle. The jump from Madden 06 > Madden 07 > Madden 08 on the 360 has been enormous, and they still have a lot of work to do for 09 and beyond.

Don't put something down just because you don't understand it.

So don't purchase the product until the end of the generational cycle?
And don't complain when Mario Party garners high sales, because it's the same damn premise. Tweak a game every year and add to it, and sell it for full price.

 

[haircut]

So don't purchase the product until the end of the generational cycle?
And don't complain when Mario Party garners high sales, because it's the same damn premise. Tweak a game every year and add to it, and sell it for full price.

But Mario party proves that Nintendo whores out Mario and Mario is tired and for kids.

 

[StevieP]

But Mario party proves that Nintendo whores out Mario and Mario is tired and for kids.

And Madden is for TEH ADULTZ!

 

[JJConrad]

Madden looks like it has lost very little because Wii gamers shunned it and should see next to no loss thriving on PS3 and the 360. Wii gamer apathy fallout: failed confirmed.

That graph is a little puzzling. Xbox brand sales last year should be just a little over 800k, the chart appears to be low ... at the same time, Playstation looks like it may be a little high. I wonder what numbers they used for last year.

I really think we're putting too much emphasis on a single month's sales. Last year's game sold about 7 million copies when all was said and done. Almost 5,000,000 people didn't buy the game immediately, so there is a long way to go before anyone should start celebrating.

Looking at 2007's sales I see Madden playing out a few possible ways for the rest of it life:

1) 360 inherits the PS2 Madden fanbase and its legs. Essentially, their roles reverse.

2) The percentage changes seen this month echo across every month. Take 2006's LTD totals and multiply it by whatever the August Y-o-Y change is.

3) The 360's legs aren't as long as the PS2’s and its lead evaporates quickly. Basically, the hardcore Madden fans are switching largely to the 360, but the 5 million remaining casuals return to their roots.

(Of course, none are absolute. There will be a mixture of each, but one more apparent over the others.)


That stuff is a far more relevant discussion that what have been having.




Fanboyisms aside, I find these sales to be rather troubling for EA. Given the extra time, sales are down across the board. If September doesn't show a large increase, EA may be in some trouble. The game didn't get THIS insanely huge until the PS2, maybe it needs it to thrive.

 

[Odysseus]

i gave a +1 to a system a few hours ago. who wants to know which one?

september sales-age will be impacted.

 

[C4Lukins]

i gave a +1 to a system a few hours ago. who wants to know which one?

september sales-age will be impacted.

I bet I can guess which one. It took you long enough.

 

[CTLance]

i gave a +1 to a system a few hours ago. who wants to know which one?

september sales-age will be impacted.

STEP AWAY FROM THE BEEHIVE.
THROW DOWN YOUR POKING STICK.
DO NOT ATTEMPT TO RUN OR THE NINJA STRIKE FORCE WILL GUT YOU.

 

[titiklabingapat]

STEP AWAY FROM THE BEEHIVE.
THROW DOWN YOUR POKING STICK.
DO NOT ATTEMPT TO RUN OR THE NINJA STRIKE FORCE WILL GUT YOU.

That's one of the best lolcpics I've seen in a long while :lol

 

[TerryLee81]

i gave a +1 to a system a few hours ago. who wants to know which one?

september sales-age will be impacted.

So you are an official console owner now?

Tell us moer about your purchase. Start a new thread.

 

[Odysseus]

I bet I can guess which one. It took you long enough.

i bet you guessed wrong.

the new home for odysseus' gaming is:

Spoiler

nintendo ds

 

[C4Lukins]

i bet you guessed wrong.

the new home for odysseus' gaming is:

Spoiler

nintendo ds

That is what I was guessing, I swear. I knew the doublepunch of

plus the

would finally get you onboard.

 

[Odysseus]

That is what I was guessing, I swear. I knew the doublepunch of

[animatesds.jpg] plus the [agds.jpg]

would finally get you onboard.

who could resist those two gems? i mean, really? not this snowman.