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NPD Sales Results for February 2010

Penguin

Member
donny2112 said:
No Player's Choice line. Nintendo is shooting themselves in the foot (tie ratio-wise) by refusing to put one out. Even the "Everyone's Recommendation" line in Japan isn't near enough. GameCube's "big" hitters mostly got there significantly on the backs of PC pricing. Withholding that for Wii is just an incredibly stupid move by Nintendo.

Its a double-edge sword at times, I mean how many people here wait for the eventual price drop on a game we know will do iffy... *Looks at Darksiders*

But I think some games would benefit from it, most 3rd party affairs and stuff like Punch-Out and the Excite-Line.
 

donny2112

Member
Andrex said:
I believe it was a GAFer who said tie-ratios are for fanboy soldier's justifications and matter for little else.

Or something like that.

donny2112 said:
No Player's Choice line. Nintendo is shooting themselves in the foot (sales-wise) by refusing to put one out. Even the "Everyone's Recommendation" line in Japan isn't near enough. GameCube's "big" hitters mostly got there significantly on the backs of PC pricing. Withholding that for Wii is just an incredibly stupid move by Nintendo.

Fixed. Same sentiment. It hurts the bottom line for software sales, which happens to be the dividend in the calculation for the tie ratio.

Penguin said:
Its a double-edge sword at times, I mean how many people here wait for the eventual price drop on a game we know will do iffy...

Twilight Princess Wii is still $50. Wind Waker had a long life at the $20 level. Putting a minimum time (e.g. a year) between the first release and PC release is fine. It's been over three years for the launch games, though, with no official price decrease. They've just been "discontinued."
 

EagleEyes

Member
The Wii and the 360 are just killin it when it comes to software sales this gen. Was the PS2 this dominate last gen when it came to software sales? Were there multiplats that sold better on the Gamecube or Xbox last gen?
 

gerg

Member
donny2112 said:
Fixed. Same sentiment. It hurts the bottom line for software sales, which happens to be the dividend in the calculation for the tie ratio.

Let's hope that the seemingly apparent success of the "Everyone's Recommendation Line" moves Nintendo enough to change their mind on the matter.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Opus Angelorum said:
As I stated, until Sony release the number of retail units that were available for February then any anecdotal evidence of shortages (no matter how true) cannot be quantified.

Then don't call possible supply constraints "mythical" and don't make assumptions about how well the Wii or PS3 would have sold without them.
 

Kintaro

Worships the porcelain goddess
donny2112 said:
No Player's Choice line. Nintendo is shooting themselves in the foot (tie ratio-wise) by refusing to put one out. Even the "Everyone's Recommendation" line in Japan isn't near enough. GameCube's "big" hitters mostly got there significantly on the backs of PC pricing. Withholding that for Wii is just an incredibly stupid move by Nintendo.

No, no it's not. They want people to pay full price for their games. Not wait them out like we do for the games on the HD twins. They give off the perception that Nintendo games are worth that much money, even long after they're out. They're also right.

People know Nintendo games will not go down in price, so they just pony up and buy them. Everyone else knows every other game will go down in price, so they hold back for cheap/used Who looks stupid here?
 

Celine

Member
Kintaro said:
No, no it's not. They want people to pay full price for their games. Not wait them out like we do for the games on the HD twins. They give off the perception that Nintendo games are worth that much money, even long after they're out. They're also right.

People know Nintendo games will not go down in price, so they just pony up and buy them. Everyone else knows every other game will go down in price, so they hold back for cheap/used Who looks stupid here?
.
 

gerg

Member
Kintaro said:
No, no it's not. They want people to pay full price for their games. Not wait them out like we do for the games on the HD twins. They give off the perception that Nintendo games are worth that much money, even long after they're out. They're also right.

People know Nintendo games will not go down in price, so they just pony up and buy them. Everyone else knows every other game will go down in price, so they hold back for cheap/used Who looks stupid here?

The best solution to resisting the fast transition from "full price retail release" to "second hand purchase" isn't to release a game at a high price and stick with it indefinitely. If someone's not willing to pay $50 on Twilight Princess in the three years since its release, the fact that it's still going to be $50 come next December isn't going to do any more to motivate them to do so.

Moreover, at this point in the lives of many titles, by now cheap second-hand copies are easy to find. Nintendo's losing out on money when customers gravitate towards these, as opposed to a brand new $20 "Player's Choice" edition.

(In any case, the bestest solution is probably simply to release games at a price point low enough that people will want to buy new versions however many years after their release.)
 

donny2112

Member
Kintaro said:
They want people to pay full price for their games.

They did. The games that need to go on PC aren't selling any more. It's stupid to not offer them to people at a lower cost now who didn't even have the option to buy them previously as they didn't own the system, and the game isn't really available now.

Kintaro said:
Not wait them out like we do for the games on the HD twins.

MW2 was being sold for in the $40 range a month after release. I'm talking like a year, heck two after release. Not the evergreens, either. I mean the games that aren't still selling.

Kintaro said:
People know Nintendo games will not go down in price, so they just pony up and buy them. Everyone else knows every other game will go down in price, so they hold back for cheap/used Who looks stupid here?

Absolutely, Nintendo. The people coming in late in the generation (i.e. the more price conscious) have the option of buying a probably terrible third-party game for $20 or $50 for a three-year old Nintendo game that isn't named Mario Kart, Wii Play, or Wii Fit. Being a price conscious consumer, the choice is already made for them. Nintendo loses two ways there. 1) Bad impression as most of the cheap games available are also bad. 2) No extra build up of a userbase for the next game in the series.

God of War only really took off when it hit the $20 level. That led to GoW2 selling > 800K in its launch month, as people had become fans of the series at the lower price point.

Nintendo is stupid for refusing to do a legitimate PC line for the Wii.
 

Sadist

Member
You could argue that GoW needed to take off, which is not the case for Mario Kart, Party or Zelda for instance. GoW = New IP, MK/P, Zelda = Established IP
 

donny2112

Member
Sadist said:
You could argue that GoW needed to take off, which is not the case for Mario Kart, Party or Zelda for instance. GoW = New IP, MK/P, Zelda = Established IP

Established with the core, yes. Expanded audience, not so much. Also, again, a late-coming price conscious consumer (Nintendo even had graphs about this last-gen that they've conveniently forgotten) is going to be looking for the cheap games, so a $50 Twilight Princess would never be on their radar, established or not.

Edit:
Essentially, it just doesn't make sense for a game that was very popular but has stopped selling at its current pricing to stay there indefinitely preventing latecomers from ever trying out the game. This is basically a mirror of Nintendo's foolish stubbornness to reduce the price of the Wii. It was due a price cut in 2008 in Japan. Europe is still waiting for a price cut. There's room to argue that the price cut in the U.S. was even a few months overdue.
 

WillyFive

Member
Kintaro said:
No, no it's not. They want people to pay full price for their games. Not wait them out like we do for the games on the HD twins. They give off the perception that Nintendo games are worth that much money, even long after they're out. They're also right.

People know Nintendo games will not go down in price, so they just pony up and buy them. Everyone else knows every other game will go down in price, so they hold back for cheap/used Who looks stupid here?

You know what bothers me? This is true.

I bought Wii Sports Resort as it came out for this same reason.
 

donny2112

Member
Willy105 said:
You know what bothers me? This is true.

I bought Wii Sports Resort as it came out for this same reason.

It's true for evergreen titles. Not the games I'm talking about (e.g. Zelda: TP, Wario Ware, Super Paper Mario, Metroid Prime 3). smh
 
Kintaro said:
No, no it's not. They want people to pay full price for their games.

They also want to see sustained YoY and MoM growth, be so wildly successful that they aren't even really in competition with Sony and Microsoft, never have to drop the price of their hardware, and continue to sell on the back of a single guaranteed first-party hit every year without ever needing to scramble for sales or reach out to third-parties. It's nice to want things.

It's true that there's a pathological pattern with a lot of games on, say, the HD systems where they're released, there's an orgy of purchasing upfront, and then interest drops off so precipitously that the price needs to fall by 60% or more in order to even clear out the first shipment of stock. That's bad because it trains retailers not to stock games, users not to buy games at full price, and publishers to treat their back catalog as disposable because every game sells its LTD in two months tops.

Like plenty of other situations, though, Nintendo have recognized a real problem and then enacted the absolute stupidest possible answer about how to fix it. A big part of the reason that these titles fall in price is that most consumers are not actually interested in paying $50 for the majority of software they purchase. This is what creates the burgeoning used market and contributes to those price drops in the first place. If you cultivate a culture of disposability like on the HD systems, you get uncontrolled, immediate pricedrops and that's certainly bad. But controlled pricedrops, a long time after a game's release (like a minimum of one year) aren't going to train anyone to "wait it out" (if you can wait over a year to play a game cheaper, you weren't ever going to buy it at full price anyway) while still giving you the benefit of a lower-price offering.

By taking a hard-line against offering any discounted software (something they've never done before), Nintendo cuts off their nose to spite their face. It means that budget-conscious shoppers (a large portion of Wii owners) will have turn to used software or third-party bombas to get games for <= $20. It means that new buyers can't easily bring home a good library of sold-as-new software with their system (compare to the PS2, where the Greatest Hits line encouraged lots of people to buy red-stripe titles instead of used-bin scrounging when they bought a system late in the cycle.)

Basically, it's easy to identify the software that should actually stay at $50 because it continues to sell well over time at that price. It makes perfect sense to keep NSMBW and MKW and WSR at $50 basically forever and to avoid "replacing" them with "upgrade" versions of the same software so they can continue to sell them. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to keep Metroid Prime, Fire Emblem, Twilight Princess, etc. off of the market altogether and guarantee these titles will never ever make Nintendo another dime when they could be serving as a slate of introductory software and buoying both software and hardware sales instead.

Or, shorter me:

donny2112 said:
It's true for evergreen titles. Not the games I'm talking about (e.g. Zelda: TP, Wario Ware, Super Paper Mario, Metroid Prime 3). smh

Nintendo is never going to make another single dollar on Twilight Princess until the end of time unless they release it as a Player's Choice cheap-o title, and doing so will not reduce the sales of Zelda Wii in any way as the games don't directly replace one another (in fact, in some cases such a release will actually help sales of later games, the way God of War 1's GH release massively increased interest in, and sales of, the sequel.)
 

Evlar

Banned
Did we just get sales data on Twilight Princess's performance this month, or what? I'm seeing a lot of unqualified statements about Nintendo's price structure and I wonder what they are based on.
 

gerg

Member
donny2112 said:
This is basically a mirror of Nintendo's foolish stubbornness to reduce the price of the Wii. It was due a price cut in 2008 in Japan. Europe is still waiting for a price cut. There's room to argue that the price cut in the U.S. was even a few months overdue.

On the other hand, Nintendo included WSR in the base package. I don't think that the lack of a price cut in Europe was very foolish, especially considering how the exchange rate of the GBP to Yen has turned to shit recently. (This is also true, to a lesser extent of the exchange rate between the Euro and the Yen.)

Edit: wrowa is right. The Eurozone has received a 50 Euro price cut, but the Wii is still selling for £180 in the UK.
 

Vinci

Danish
donny2112 said:
It's true for evergreen titles. Not the games I'm talking about (e.g. Zelda: TP, Wario Ware, Super Paper Mario, Metroid Prime 3). smh

I agree with this. Zelda: TP should be in a Player's Choice line right now, selling for $20 a pop and getting people to pay titles on their new Wii that are at least of good quality. Admittedly, I think Nintendo's stance on pricing their games is generally the right way to go - but they are taking it to a point that is hurting them.

That said, I almost wonder if they feel they have to take such a hard stance on the matter in order to cement it into consumers' minds?
 

Struct09

Member
charlequin said:
Nintendo is never going to make another single dollar on Twilight Princess until the end of time unless they release it as a Player's Choice cheap-o title, and doing so will not reduce the sales of Zelda Wii in any way as the games don't directly replace one another (in fact, in some cases such a release will actually help sales of later games, the way God of War 1's GH release massively increased interest in, and sales of, the sequel.)

This may be true, but Nintendo is likely looking at the bigger picture. If they never reduce price on their titles, then people won't hesitate and will pay full price when they're released. So they may not sell any more Zelda: Twilight Princesses, but the idea is probably that they'll sell more Metroid: Other M's at full price.

Of course, just conjecture. I won't pretend to know what's going on in Nintendo's head, but they seem to know what they're doing.

EDIT: Read your post again, and it seems like I'm kind of repeating what you already said.
 

evangd007

Member
Willy105 said:
You know what bothers me? This is true.

I bought Wii Sports Resort as it came out for this same reason.

Same for me. Nintendo games are the only games I early adopt anymore. When some savvy shopping allows me to get Left 4 Dead 2 and Mass Effect 2 for $30 less than a month after release, why buy at launch? For pre-order bonuses? Those things can go straight to hell.
 

gerg

Member
donny2112 said:
I thought they got Black Wii with WSR bundled in instead of a price cut. Oops. Thanks for the correction. :)

That was the UK, where Nintendo actually increased the trade price before lowering it again alongside the introduction of the black Wii and including WSR with the console.
 

Kintaro

Worships the porcelain goddess
Vinci said:
I agree with this. Zelda: TP should be in a Player's Choice line right now, selling for $20 a pop and getting people to pay titles on their new Wii that are at least of good quality. Admittedly, I think Nintendo's stance on pricing their games is generally the right way to go - but they are taking it to a point that is hurting them.

That said, I almost wonder if they feel they have to take such a hard stance on the matter in order to cement it into consumers' minds?

$20? Are you high? When have Nintendo Greatest Hits ever been $20? They will be $34.99-$39.99 if it ever happens.

They have to take a hard stance because if you don't, consumers will wait you out. How do you think MS succeeded in making customers buy Xbox Live? "Buy this if you want to play online whenever you want. Period."

As for Zelda TP, all they need to do is reprint TP around New Zelda's release. People will buy it for full price. I would bet money on it. Fire Emblem, Wario, so forth? Probably not worth it to them. BTW, want to buy Zelda TP? It's for sale on Amazon right now, shipped by Amazon, brand new.

Nintendo is and always will be a shrewd business. I think they will be fine.
 

gerg

Member
Kintaro said:
Nintendo is and always will be a shrewd business. I think they will be fine.

The question isn't as to whether or not Nintendo will be "fine"; considering their basic business structure, it's hard to imagine a situation when Nintendo wouldn't be raking in the cash. Be that as it may, however, it doesn't mean that it isn't conceivable that Nintendo could be making more money than they already are.
 
Evlar said:
Did we just get sales data on Twilight Princess's performance this month, or what? I'm seeing a lot of unqualified statements about Nintendo's price structure and I wonder what they are based on.

Twilight Princess is just the clearest and most obvious example of a Wii title that is out-of-print (and so can't sell any extra copies), single-player (and so doesn't have the same kind of long-tail sales potential), and which would've been a Player's Choice title by this time last generation.

Struct09 said:
If they never reduce price on their titles, then people won't hesitate and will pay full price when they're released.

My point here is that if your price drops are far enough out, people still won't hesitate. If Nintendo had a Player's Choice program where games that were, let's say, over 18 months old were sometimes re-released at a lower price, I maintain this would have literally zero effect on upfront sales. Anyone who skips a game on day one because they'll be able to get it cheaper two years later is very clearly not a candidate for buying full price.

Kintaro said:
$20? Are you high? When have Nintendo Greatest Hits ever been $20?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player's_Choice

Wikipedia said:
When a game becomes a Player's Choice title, it is sold at a lower price, which, at current recommended retail prices, is £19.99 in the United Kingdom, USD$19.99 in the United States, CDN$29.99 in Canada, AUD$49.95 in Australia and &#8364;29.99 throughout the Eurozone.

As for Zelda TP, all they need to do is reprint TP around New Zelda's release. People will buy it for full price.

In retrospect, I should've realized you were not actually interested in actually having a legitimate conversation about this issue.
 

Celine

Member
gerg said:
The question isn't as to whether or not Nintendo will be "fine"; considering their basic business structure, it's hard to imagine a situation when Nintendo wouldn't be raking in the cash. Be that as it may, however, it doesn't mean that it isn't conceivable that Nintendo could be making more money than they already are.
Maybe for Nintendo managers is more important to let pass the notion that Nintendo games should be bought at full price than the extra cash earned by selling for cheap games like Fire Emblem.
 

gerg

Member
Celine said:
Maybe for Nintendo managers is more important to let pass the notion that Nintendo games should be bought at full price than the extra cash earned by selling for cheap games like Fire Emblem.

I think the idea that properly managed Player's Choice line of games wouldn't cause fewer full-price sales of titles that aren't evergreens of the likes of Mario Kart, Wii Fit, WSR, and so on has been adequately supported by charlequin and others.
 

Celine

Member
donny2112 said:
Edit:
Nevermind. Nintendo will do what they want, regardless of what reasons we give here. Oh, well. :/
It's known that Nintendo is heavily conservative and geared towards short terms profits even at the cost to damage potential long term gains.
If Nintendo hasn't released a Player Choice line on DS or Wii is because they believe it isn't worth it.
 

Kintaro

Worships the porcelain goddess
charlequin said:
My point here is that if your price drops are far enough out, people still won't hesitate. If Nintendo had a Player's Choice program where games that were, let's say, over 18 months old were sometimes re-released at a lower price, I maintain this would have literally zero effect on upfront sales. Anyone who skips a game on day one because they'll be able to get it cheaper two years later is very clearly not a candidate for buying full price.

They're also consumers Nintendo does not care about. If they did, we would have a PC line by now. Until they do, that's what they are saying. Remember, Nintendo is copying Apple here. Does Apple have a Player Choice line? Fuck no.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player's_Choice

Your link also states Player Choices games start at $30, then go down to $20 after another set period of time. Obviously, those are for Nintendo published games.

In retrospect, I should've realized you were not actually interested in actually having a legitimate conversation about this issue.

This entire topic is pissing in the wind. It's obvious what Nintendo is doing and what their aim is. If late comers aren't going to buy Zelda TP, they will buy New Zelda come the holidays. Then they can go back and buy Zelda TP on Nintendo's downloadable service come next console cycle. Or when they finally do put in a PC line, a year or so after the next console is out (like they did for GBA, 2 years after the DS launch...which is also in your link).

Besides, remember what Atlus used to pull with their titles? Buy them before they're gone forever? Nintendo could just be taking that approach as well. If it worked for stupidly niche titles like Atlus', it'll work for Nintendo's.

Nintendo works outside of the normal thought for this industry and it's served them well. By now, we should hae gotten over it, shrugged our shoulders and accepted it.
 

donny2112

Member
Kintaro said:
Nintendo works outside of the normal thought for this industry and it's served them well.

Nintendo started the Player's Choice concept.

At this point, they're just pushing the envelope of keeping high prices as long as they possibly can to see where the breaking point is. This was shown previously with Wii's price and is still being shown with the lack of a PC line. Last year Wii finally dropped in price. This year, they introduced a limited third-party "Everyone's Recommendation" line in Japan.

The fact that they're purposefully pushing the envelope doesn't automatically mean that it's not stupid to withhold a PC line, though. There are plenty of reasons here why it's a very practical idea to create such a line. Nintendo wants to really see where the limits are, though.

Third-parties put out "test" games for the Wii. Nintendo's using this whole generation as a "test."
 

Subitai

Member
Celine said:
Maybe for Nintendo managers is more important to let pass the notion that Nintendo games should be bought at full price than the extra cash earned by selling for cheap games like Fire Emblem.
That could be the case, but there I'd think they could find some way to market around that.
 
Rated-Rsuperstar said:
This being the third month of the GOW collection being in the top 20, I'll take my Ratchet, Jak, and GTA collection now.

Yeah, no way it hasn't made enough money for them to see it as viable because of both the extra sales on existing games as well as bringing in new audiences for upcoming sequels. I know a ton of people who had never played the first two games before they bought the Collection. Hopefully Ueda's already been given the go-ahead on Team ICO Collection.
 

Vizion28

Banned
It's quite obvious why Nintendo doesn't cut the price of their games. It is because they continue to sell well after years it was released. Games like Smash Bros. and Galaxy still sell more in a month than a lot of games that debut that month. Perhaps if Nintendo had more competition on their console they would cut the price. But that will never happen.
 

Haunted

Member
legend166 said:
It was actually the Winter Olympics during February though.
Sure sure, 'twas to be expected.

On a related note, have we heard about how much the thing has sold so far? It doesn't deserve a tenth of the original's success.
 

Averon

Member
Pai Pai Master said:
Yeah, no way it hasn't made enough money for them to see it as viable because of both the extra sales on existing games as well as bringing in new audiences for upcoming sequels. I know a ton of people who had never played the first two games before they bought the Collection. Hopefully Ueda's already been given the go-ahead on Team ICO Collection.

I wouldn't be surprised if GoW:Collection actually goes up the charts in March due to the hype and excitement GoW3 is bringing to the franchise.
 

fernoca

Member
Katana_Strikes said:
GoW Collection keeps on trucking! :D

And people think GoWIII won't do "that well"?
Loudninja said:
So that's 3 months the collection been in the top 20?This is very good news,makes me hopeful for more collections.
The problem is not people thinking it won't do well, everyone knows it will do darn well..even the PSP version did 340k in March 2008 when it debuted...

...is the people expecting for some reason ..1.5-2 million copies on the March 2010 NPD alone, when at the moment there hasn't been any PS3 exclusive release that debuted with at leats a million in the US...of course, GoWIII could be the first, is an impressive game... (II did 800k+ in the first month alone back then)

But, God of War games in general, has been great sellers at first..that then fall from the NPD (Top 20) charts..and raise back to it, when the price is reduced.

Collection was no different.
Debuted at #17 in November, then was missing from the Top 20 in December, then on January, when the price was reduced from $40 to $30 it came back to #20..and in February back at #18.
 
WELP, that explains why Nintendo is delivering such heavy hitters in such a small time this year. They really need another Wii Fit or Mario Kart, because otherwise the XBOX360 and PS3 will really pass them this year.
 

JaxJag

Banned
HAL_Laboratory said:
Nintendo has sold so many Wiis that almost everyone owns one now (and it still works), hence the slump in sales.

There's only 60 million gamers in the world?

Who did Sony sell all those extra PS2s to?
 

Penguin

Member
I think a Player's Choice line, could also help ill-informed consumers if they do it properly.

Since they collect data on the Nintendo Channel, they could introduce a tier system

Player's Choice: Platinum- 34.99-39.99
Player's Choice: Gold- 29.99
Player's Choice: Silver- 19.99

This way price kind of matches up with quality, lowers the price, and gives consumers an idea of how good/bad a game is.
 
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