Support NeoGAF

[soundwave05]

Uh, no.

I'm saying that the DS, just like the Game Boy, basically has the market to itself for all intents and purposes. It almost won by default, because Sony screwed it up. The PSP is the GameCube of handhelds: hanging on but still not worth a damn.

The DS actually had to work to gets its marketshare. The Game Boy (the GBA anyway) really just coasted to its position.

The PSP isn't a bad system, it just got uppercut badly by Nintendogs and never was quite the same after that. Sony is kind of like that boxer that had never been knocked down ... when they got back up they didn't quite know what was going on. They're kinda like the Russian dude from Rocky IV, lol.

I guess that would make Sega Apollo Creed.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Uh, no.

I'm saying that the DS, just like the Game Boy, basically has the market to itself for all intents and purposes. It almost won by default, because Sony screwed it up. The PSP is the GameCube of handhelds: hanging on but still not worth a damn.

How exactly did it "screw it up"? The PSP was everything Sony said it was going to be when it launched.

 

[quetz67]

Uh, no.

I'm saying that the DS, just like the Game Boy, basically has the market to itself for all intents and purposes. It almost won by default, because Sony screwed it up. The PSP is the GameCube of handhelds: hanging on but still not worth a damn.

I find it funny how the GC is always seen as a complete failure though making lots of money for Nintendo. The xbox didnt sell much more and was a huge moneypit, but seems to be seen as a mild success (probably because it was a first try).

But that holds true for the PSP as well. It will probably end up selling about the numbers of GC and xbox combined and is profitable for Sony. As a first foray into a territory even more completely dominated by Nintendo as the home console market was ever by Sony that is a good start.

 

[soundwave05]

Nintendo should really thank Sony for the PSP as well. Without the PSP, I don't think there's a DS, without a DS there's no Nintendogs/Brain Training/NSMB, without all that, there's probably no Wii/Wii Sports either. The PSP lit a fire under their butts and they finally drew a line in the sand vs. Sony.

PSP looking at it now is probably the best thing that ever happened to Nintendo. It really shook them out of their over dependance on the Game Boy + Pokemon brands. While the PSP will be reasonably successful for Sony, I think the old adage "it's better to let sleeping dogs lie" might apply in their situation.

 

[quetz67]

Nintendo should really thank Sony for the PSP as well. Without the PSP, I don't think there's a DS, without a DS there's no Nintendogs/Brain Training/NSMB, without all that, there's probably no Wii/Wii Sports either. The PSP lit a fire under their butts and they finally drew a line in the sand vs. Sony.

PSP looking at it now is probably the best thing that ever happened to Nintendo. It really shook them out of their over dependance on the Game Boy + Pokemon brands.

joke post?

 

[soundwave05]

joke post?

From a business P.O.V. it's almost no question. Before they were just talking about being different but really sticking to the same old formula. The PSP shook them out of that which caused a chain reaction that's lead to ... well this exact point.

 

[Cheebs]

joke post?

He is right. Nintendo would not have gone after that "new" market if it wasn't for pressure from PSP before it came out.

Not going after that market and getting massive sales would mean they wouldn't use the same strategy for Wii. And that strategy is why Wii is the undisputed winner of this console generation.


Ironically, it's PSP as he said in a way that led to Wii being the wide leader of the console market for this entire generation. Leaving for us to argue who will be #2.

 

[Malleymal]

Am I the only one that doesnt care about what these numbers say and just click on this thread to see the funny gifs??

 

[sonycowboy]

Top 25 ranked by revenue

Rank Title Publisher

1 360 GUITAR HERO 2 W / GUITAR Activision

2 WII MARIO PARTY 8 Nintendo

3 360 FORZA MOTORSPORT 2 Microsoft

4 NDS POKEMON DIAMOND VERSION Nintendo

5 WII PLAY W / REMOTE Nintendo

6 PS2 GUITAR HERO 2 W /GUITAR Activision

7 PS2 SPIDER-MAN 3 Activision

8 360 SPIDER-MAN 3 Activision

9 NDS POKEMON PEARL VERSION Nintendo

10 360 COMMAND & CONQUER 3: TIBERIUM W ARS Electronic Arts

11 WII SUPER PAPER MARIO Nintendo

12 360 CRACKDOWN Microsoft

13 PS3 MLB '07: THE SHOW Sony

14 WII LEGEND OF ZELDA: TWILIGHT PRINCESS Nintendo

15 WII SPIDER-MAN 3 Activision

16 360 SHADOWRUN Microsoft

17 PS3 SPIDER-MAN 3 Activision

18 PS2 MLB '07: THE SHOW Sony

19 360 MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL 2K7 Take 2 Interactive

20 360 GEARS OF WAR Microsoft

21 NDS NEW SUPER MARIO BROS Nintendo

22 NDS SPIDER-MAN 3 Activision

23 360 PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN: AT WORLD'S END Disney

24 PS2 GOD OF W AR II Sony

25 360 TOM CLANCY'S RAINBOW SIX: VEGAS Ubi Soft

 

[Masklinn]

If you believe anything of what I wrote is wrong or stupid, please quote that and tell us your opinion or better proof why I am wrong.

I don't have discussions with insane people, sorry.

But I can give you a cookie.

 

[pswii60]

sonycowboy, don't you mean revenue?

 

[Evlar]

NDS: 4
PS2: 4
Wii: 5
360: 10
PS3: 2

And, as has been said, this looks like it's listed in order from most revenue.

 

[TigersFan]

From a business P.O.V. it's almost no question. Before they were just talking about being different but really sticking to the same old formula. The PSP shook them out of that which caused a chain reaction that's lead to ... well this exact point.

I know its probably not popular opinion, but I don't think the DS was as reactionary as you're making it out to be. Reactionary would have been Nintendo releasing a GBA2. They didn't. Instead they moved in a different direction completely, which makes you think they had probably already been working on it for awhile. If anything the PSP pushed their release forward, but I don't think the idea had anything to do with it. Just the timescale.

I still kinda think the Wii chipset probably came out of Nintendo trying to give the DS, Gamecube level graphics. When they had to release early they used a different chipset that was available, and the low power Gamecube they had been dreaming up became the Wii instead.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

NDS: 4
PS2: 4
Wii: 5
360: 10
PS3: 2

And, as has been said, this looks like it's listed in order from most revenue.

360 continues to impress.

 

[cbrotherson]

The PSP isn't a bad system, it just got uppercut badly by Nintendogs and never was quite the same after that. Sony is kind of like that boxer that had never been knocked down ... when they got back up they didn't quite know what was going on. They're kinda like the Russian dude from Rocky IV, lol.

I guess that would make Sega Apollo Creed.

Poor Apollo

"Sony! I! Want! You! Chump!"

2 GENERATIONS LATER

"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

I'm surprised at the lack of PS3 revenue generators in that list. I would have thought there'd be more than 2 at least.

One thing i've noticed about the 360 is while it has the high profile market down, it has a distinct lack of 'everyman' titles that push respectable revenue. It seems like 360 titles are either blockbusters, or don't chart. That can't be good long term.

 

[Starchasing]

I know its probably not popular opinion, but I don't think the DS was as reactionary as you're making it out to be. Reactionary would have been Nintendo releasing a GBA2. They didn't. Instead they moved in a different direction completely, which makes you think they had probably already been working on it for awhile. If anything the PSP pushed their release forward, but I don't think the idea had anything to do with it. Just the timescale.

I agree with you. I think they choosed this way before the PSP. I also think they expected GBA to last longer. Thats why they launched the atrocity called DSphat. They werent ready, they had to launch a kind of protoype. Then they released the real DS, the DS lite.

Thats why the nongames had to wait a few months, they were expecting to launch the ds later than they did. This did not happened with Wii , which launched on its final designed and included WiiSports.

 

[tanasten]

360 continues to impress.

It's the system of choice for hardcore gamers for sure. That's why the system sells so many software, because it has the true dedicated gamers, which is what the Wii and the DS is lacking.

Both Nintendo system are still young I guess. Nintendo/third parties has to explore the market yet.

 

[Pureauthor]

'DS being reactionary' can be seen in a particular light- that is, the GCN fiasco made Nintendo realize that they couldn't compete with Sony on a power basis - for one thing, it just makes them seem 'me too'. Thus they tried to differentiate their product from PSP as much as possible.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

'DS being reactionary' can be seen in a particular light- that is, the GCN fiasco made Nintendo realize that they couldn't compete with Sony on a power basis - for one thing, it just makes them seem 'me too'. Thus they tried to differentiate their product from PSP as much as possible.

I don't think that was the thought process.

There was a time that Nintendo thought that more complex and more hardware intensive was the way to go, but what good did it do them in the long run with the GameCube, or the N64 for that matter? Nintendo has often said that they've been watching the success of the PS2 and PS1 in the market. It wasn't the hardware they pushed that made them a success, it was the mantra that no matter what your taste, there was a game for you.

Gameplay wise, there's a story floating around about SNES era Nintendo dumbfounded at the popularity of Sonic, exclaiming that Mario was more complex, and deep. The common comment from Sonic fans was "I like this game because it isn't that complicated; you can play it with one button."

Make no mistake, the DS and Wii were conscious efforts from Nintendo to storm the gates and take their marketshare back. I think the PSP forced their hand with the DS, but had the PSP not existed, we would have seen the same product anyway. (But probably with a more sexy casing from the outset.)

 

[AdmiralViscen]

I find it funny how the GC is always seen as a complete failure though making lots of money for Nintendo. The xbox didnt sell much more and was a huge moneypit, but seems to be seen as a mild success (probably because it was a first try).

But that holds true for the PSP as well. It will probably end up selling about the numbers of GC and xbox combined and is profitable for Sony. As a first foray into a territory even more completely dominated by Nintendo as the home console market was ever by Sony that is a good start.

The GC is a failure because I only bought one new game for it after 2004, and even that was a sparse year. And that last game came out in January 05.

 

[tahrikmili]

I find it funny how the GC is always seen as a complete failure though making lots of money for Nintendo. The xbox didnt sell much more and was a huge moneypit, but seems to be seen as a mild success (probably because it was a first try).

GC was a product from a company well established in the market. Its purpose was to expand marketshare and make money. It made some money but failed miserably in all other aspects.

XBOX was a product from a newcomer to the market. Its purpose was to build a brand and establish marketshare. It suceeded quite well.

 

[schuelma]

Hmm..Wii Spiderman did decently.

 

[jarrod]

Yet from what I understand, GBA has performed historically about on par with other handhelds software (4.6 LTD tieratio). PSP is at 4 right now, and on a curve to beat that.

Current tie ratios for handhelds (GB/DS in shipments, PSP in production shipments)...

4.20 GB+GBC
4.61 GBA
4.57 DS
4.00 PSP


...everything seems within the same ballpark, though DS and PSP should probably be able to swell past 5 (DS probably reaching into console territory of 6+).

 

[quetz67]

GC was a product from a company well established in the market. Its purpose was to expand marketshare and make money. It made some money but failed miserably in all other aspects.

XBOX was a product from a newcomer to the market. Its purpose was to build a brand and establish marketshare. It suceeded quite well.

thats what I said and the part I got to the point was after what you quoted

 

[Branduil]

Twilight Princess is still hanging around. It's past 5 million WW now isn't it?

 

[quetz67]

He is right. Nintendo would not have gone after that "new" market if it wasn't for pressure from PSP before it came out.

Not going after that market and getting massive sales would mean they wouldn't use the same strategy for Wii. And that strategy is why Wii is the undisputed winner of this console generation.


Ironically, it's PSP as he said in a way that led to Wii being the wide leader of the console market for this entire generation. Leaving for us to argue who will be #2.

You guys honestly believe the DS and Wii are a response to the PSP?

Nintendo is the company that cares the least about what the competition does and they tried always to be innovative and open new markets. Most of these innovations were rather small and didnt result in market increase like DS or Wii and even with those two nobody was prepared as how successful they were.

And what do you mean Wii is the winner of this generation? The PS2/GCWii/xbox generation? Or has the next generation already ended?

 

[TigersFan]

GC was a product from a company well established in the market. Its purpose was to expand marketshare and make money. It made some money but failed miserably in all other aspects.

XBOX was a product from a newcomer to the market. Its purpose was to build a brand and establish marketshare. It succeeded quite well.

This is gonna sound like a bash, but I'm really just curious. I don't think the 360 will sell much beyond the 30million mark. IF (and I'll admit that's a big if) that's all it sold, do you think it would still be considered successful? I have a feeling the market would consider it to be one. I guess any improvement is good, but I really think that MS needs to hit that magic 50-70 million mark this gen.

 

[quetz67]

I don't have discussions with insane people, sorry.

But I can give you a cookie.

It is pretty sad people like you spamming the discussion with non-posts dont get banned

 

[Atreides]

Didn't Iwata himself say that DS was an attempt to stop PSP until the GBA successor? Perhaps I don't remember that right. Does anybody has a link to that?

 

[jarrod]

This is gonna sound like a bash, but I'm really just curious. I don't think the 360 will sell much beyond the 30million mark. IF (and I'll admit that's a big if) that's all it sold, do you think it would still be considered successful? I have a feeling the market would consider it to be one. I guess any improvement is good, but I really think that MS needs to hit that magic 50-70 million mark this gen.

I think 30m+ is pretty good honestly, decent growth for the Xbox platform and a good chance at Microsoft actually seeing a profit off this videogames thing. 30m sold would actually place 360 ahead of every SEGA console, it's nothing to sneeze at. 50-70m seems almost unreachable though imo, I think it'll even be something of a push for Wii to get there.

 

[AdmiralViscen]

You guys honestly believe the DS and Wii are a response to the PSP?

Nintendo is the company that cares the least about what the competition does and they tried always to be innovative and open new markets. Most of these innovations were rather small and didnt result in market increase like DS or Wii and even with those two nobody was prepared as how successful they were.

And what do you mean Wii is the winner of this generation? The PS2/GCWii/xbox generation? Or has the next generation already ended?

Of course the DS was a response to the PSP.

Nintendo made nothing but 'safe' consoles, especially handhelds, in all its history. When it looked like Sony might eat into their handheld pie, they suddenly start talking about 'being different' and 'not competing directly.' You think this was a coincidence?

They squashed GBA after only 3 years, which they've never done, just to match Sony on the marketplace. Their rushed E3 showing featured a speech from Reggie about how you can use the two screens to have multiple cameras in your games. It was a cluster****.

Nintendo certainly had a portable N64 in development, but it got two screens and a touch screen (and came out in 2004) because they were worried about PSP.

edit: Oh right, and that third pillar bullshit.

 

[Xisiqomelir]

This is gonna sound like a bash, but I'm really just curious. I don't think the 360 will sell much beyond the 30million mark. IF (and I'll admit that's a big if) that's all it sold, do you think it would still be considered successful?

It will be successful if it makes money.

 

[Starchasing]

Didn't Iwata himself say that DS was an attempt to stop PSP until the GBA successor? Perhaps I don't remember that right. Does anybody has a link to that?

He called it the third pilar ... but i think he was just covering his ass in case the DS failed. But it didnt so they scrapped GBA. It could have been the other way if ds had failed

They squashed GBA after only 3 years, which they've never done, just to match Sony on the marketplace. Their rushed E3 showing featured a speech from Reggie about how you can use the two screens to have multiple cameras in your games. It was a cluster****.

Dont forget how atrocious it looked like. It seemed like a prototype

But i think they had 2 plans... 1 was stay the same and the other was the blue ocean thing.

They saw how their home console bussiness was shrinking, and when they saw that the same could happen to GBA, they decided to go the blue ocean way.

 

[Version 3.0]

GC was a product from a company well established in the market. Its purpose was to expand marketshare and make money. It made some money but failed miserably in all other aspects.

XBOX was a product from a newcomer to the market. Its purpose was to build a brand and establish marketshare. It suceeded quite well.

I just love watching the human mind rationalize. If I set out to make a billion dollars, and only make $500 million, I'm a failure. But if I tell you I'm "just testing the market", and lose a billion, I did okay. Sure.

Lesson to be learned: AIM LOW. Then you'll always be a winner. Tell your kids.

 

[Starchasing]

Lesson to be learned: AIM LOW. Then you'll always be a winner. Tell your kids.

Better expect nothing. Then anything will be great.

 

[elostyle]

'DS being reactionary' can be seen in a particular light- that is, the GCN fiasco made Nintendo realize that they couldn't compete with Sony on a power basis - for one thing, it just makes them seem 'me too'. Thus they tried to differentiate their product from PSP as much as possible.

Power level? What are you saying? Gamecube was the best engineered system of last gen and certainly outperformed the PS2.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Yamauchi fought the creation of the GC. He thought it was just going to be an N64-2. He was right, but worse.

The Gamecube was already knocking on death's door before Iwata came around, but he didn't do the system any favors. He basically admitted the GC was a failed system publicly and was just waiting out the generation patiently. A good part of the game shortage can be blamed on him for his apathy towards the system.

But the game shortage wasn't the reason it failed. The system did not even sell out of its initial shipment at launch. Even after that, the first two million sold and demand dropped like a rock, despite games like Pikmin and Smash Bros. Melee immediately releasing right after launch.

The GC was a failure because it did everything the PS2 did, but a year late and with a broken brand name. Anyone trying to argue differently has an agenda.

 

[quetz67]

edit: Oh right, and that third pillar bullshit.

woo...I remember 2 or 3 years ago I nearly got banned when I said that third pillar talk was nonsense.

Still I dont believe the PSP is the reason the Wii exists. The touch screen and Wiimote is in line with 'innovations' like Tilt Sensors, Virtual Boy, Mics, Rumble Pack etc.

Not that the DS wasnt kind of an preeptive strike against the PSP to keep #1 in the handheld market, but stuff like touch screen they had in their drawers for the next GB iteration (it is not like it was a new or their idea, just like the other stuff they brought it to gaming)

 

[Sharp]

woo...I remember 2 or 3 years ago I nearly got banned when I said that third pillar talk was nonsense.

Still I dont believe the PSP is the reason the Wii exists. The touch screen and Wiimote is in line with 'innovations' like Tilt Sensors, Virtual Boy, Mics, Rumble Pack etc.

Not that the DS wasnt kind of an preeptive strike against the PSP to keep #1 in the handheld market, but stuff like touch screen they had in their drawers for the next GB iteration (it is not like it was a new or their idea, just like the other stuff they brought it to gaming)

Uh, what? Where were the other companies jumping at the opportunity for dual screens or touch screens or microphones in their handheld game systems? Unless you're trying to argue that Nintendo did not invent the touch screen, which is obvious, I'm not sure what you're getting at.

 

[Version 3.0]

The GC was a failure because it did everything the PS2 did, but a year late and with a broken brand name. Anyone trying to argue differently has an agenda.

Actually, that's a much better description of the Xbox. The Cube wasn't even "just another PS2", it got stuck with the "kiddie" label and was seen as not even a PS2 substitute. Nintendo's big mistake was thinking disc media was all they needed to have the 3rd parties come running back from Sony. But then they compounded that mistake with a lot of smaller ones.

 

[titiklabingapat]

NDS: 4
PS2: 4
Wii: 5
360: 10
PS3: 2

And, as has been said, this looks like it's listed in order from most revenue.

That list makes it known that the 360 has been more or less overrepresented in the last few months. Wii software is doing great(especially if you factor in that the Wii has roughly half the 360's userbase and it's ultra killer app already bundled in). PS3 software is even worse than I thought.

 

[quetz67]

He basically admitted the GC was a failed system publicly and was just waiting out the generation patiently. A good part of the game shortage can be blamed on him for his apathy towards the system.

If he did that he is quite stupid. The system had a very good launch in two territories and with a more aggressive price (after the PS2/xbox drops) and less arrogance (third parties, online etc.) would have easily been able to win over the xbox. Just keeping Rare (even if they werent that great any longer) could have given them some no brainer hits to fill some holes. And being less online-hostile they wouldnt have lost ports like Burnout.

I agree it had no chance against PS2, but it wasnt a dead born. How stupid to ruin a brand name even more (it is not like they could have known about the change this gen)

 

[quetz67]

Uh, what? Where were the other companies jumping at the opportunity for dual screens or touch screens or microphones in their handheld game systems? Unless you're trying to argue that Nintendo did not invent the touch screen, which is obvious, I'm not sure what you're getting at.

There were no other companies making handhelds any longer. And Sony stupidly decided not to incorporate a touch screen (but it isnt like they would have to pay Nintendo royalties for the patent).

Dual screen is just nice marketing gag, but it sure isnt the factor for the DS success, it is the touching that made the DS (should have rather be named Nintento TM)

 

[Cruceh]

I wonder how much worse shadowrun would have done if it was ranked by sales, and not revenue.

 

[Pureauthor]

Power level? What are you saying? Gamecube was the best engineered system of last gen and certainly outperformed the PS2.

Exactly. And it did jack diddly for the GCN. Nintendo can't compete by going 'our system has more power!'

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Exactly. And it did jack diddly for the GCN. Nintendo can't compete by going 'our system has more power!'

To be fair, NOBODY can. Even the XBOX came in with online play as the differentiating factor from the PS2. The GameCube was a PS2 with Better graphics and Nintendo franchises.

 

[jarrod]

If he did that he is quite stupid. The system had a very good launch in two territories and with a more aggressive price (after the PS2/xbox drops) and less arrogance (third parties, online etc.) would have easily been able to win over the xbox. Just keeping Rare (even if they werent that great any longer) could have given them some no brainer hits to fill some holes. And being less online-hostile they wouldnt have lost ports like Burnout.

I agree it had no chance against PS2, but it wasnt a dead born. How stupid to ruin a brand name even more (it is not like they could have known about the change this gen)

Probably wouldn't have been worth the investment... RARE was an unproductive money pit, at $149 the console was likely barely breaking even and online wouldn't have done anything to reverse GameCube's fortunes (just as it's been something of a non-issue for Wii). Nintendo made some amazing strides with 3rd parties too as is... I think they did about as well with GameCube as they could considering the state of the marketplace.

The only thing that might've helped had they done it differently, would've been maybe delaying/perfecting those EAD games, but I doubt even AAA versions of Mario Sunshine, The Wind Waker or Double Dash (each coming six months to a year or so later) would've done much in the scheme of things. GameCube was ill-concieved from the start in terms of positioning.

 

[elostyle]

To be fair, NOBODY can. Even the XBOX came in with online play as the differentiating factor from the PS2. The GameCube was a PS2 with Better graphics and Nintendo franchises.

That's right. I just thought we were talking this stupid myth about Nintendo not being able to compete on a technical level again.

 

[Starchasing]

Dual screen is just nice marketing gag, but it sure isnt the factor for the DS success, it is the touching that made the DS (should have rather be named Nintento TM)

You need a second screen because when you write you usually cover the screen. So you need a screen to look at and other to write at.

Try to imagine Brain Training with one screen.

Once again, 1 touch screen + 1 normal screen = synergy