imastalker co.
Banned
it's funny reading that thread just because sooo many people are making the same exact arguments for PS3 and 360 that they made for PSP.
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NPD Sales Results for May 2007
- Thread starter sonycowboy
- Start date
JoshuaJSlone
Member
I don't think that alone is enough, or me-too products like Xbox and GameCube would've fared better against PS2. Having a competent desirable system is necessary, but to become market leader part of it is the luck that you have such a system when the current market leader is doing something stupid, giving consumers and publishers reason to look for alternatives.DiatribeEQ said:
Deku said:
I agree.
Who honestly didn't see the Pokebomb coming? I can understand since you yourself were right about Pokemon not being THE killer ap on DS (and it isn't), but people didn't realize the power of the Pokemans, which unlike Tetris had up until then been a consistent force in handheld sales. Kutaragi seriously picked a bad mascot to dog on.
Millions of gamers play Pokemon. They were never going to care about the PSP's advantages in that regard.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I remember that thread. It was immediately after I registered and I got so turned off from this forum that I left until late 2006.Flakster99 said:
Diatribe1974
Member
imastalker co. said:
Except that with the DS, you could play your DS games AND your GBA games as well. Big reason to buy a DS over a PSP, dispite the hardware advantages of the PSP over the DS: Massive Game selection. So...you have a lower price point, inferior hardware (when compared to the PSP) AND you have an incredible software libary to pool from. Hmmm...where have I seen this before? Oh yeah...the PS2 vs. Everyone else last gen!
The whole "buy your customers love now & earn their loyalty later" is what Sony is doing *now* with the PSP vs. DS. By the time the PSP2 vs. DS2 war begins, expect them both to enter the market ~roughly the same time as each other. By then, Sony will have gather enough folks who know what a PSP is (and if they stick to my ideology of "Price + Performance = Sales!") they'll help to *possibly* change how things will end up being. Think about what Microsoft did with the 360 this generation: They came out last generation, finished 2nd with 24-25 million Xbox 1's sold, released the 360 a year before everyone else, sold millions (Xbox 1 fans continuing over to the 360) & now has a couple things going for it: Cheapest priced system that has the best visuals going for it; folks KNOW what an Xbox is now (Mom's & Dad's); is able to continue "moving forward" from last generation.
Nintendo has a potentially hard road to follow with next generation. While, yes, they *are* Nintendo, releasing a handheld with the Nintendo name brand isn't a 100% sure-fire success story. What happens if they release the DS2 *after* the PSP2? What happens if their system is priced within striking distance (cheaper by a little bit helps nothing) of the PSP2 *AND* the performance of the DS2 is surpassed by the PSP2?
All in all, set the environments right & their blows the winds of change!
DiatribeEQ said:
Anything can happen. The scenario you described is one possible scenario, which unsurprisingly aligns with your world view. I would also see a case when PSP2 comes out and flops even harder, since you have to consider the fact when the first one came out the brand image was untarnished and people might have bought 5 million PSPs without a single game... well I think they actually did, but that's besides the point. The point is, they don't get to have that a second time. So who knows.
According to screen digest, it will more than triple its installed base in 4 years to 75 million. That is also a possibility. I mean quantum physics allow for a lot of things theoretically. So I'm keeping an open mind.
imastalker co.
Banned
DiatribeEQ said:
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
DiatribeEQ said:
well, technically, PSP could play GBA games too....
its whether or not you wanted to do it legally.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Here is the thing. The most amazing system in the world will not help you if the market is not with you. You could release a handheld so great that it makes women orgasm and men cry at the mere sight of it, but if you're the loser last generation, third parties are not going to be eager to spend $20 million on making new games for it.DiatribeEQ said:
And your fantasy, err, theory doesn't really take in to account that, under Iwata, Nintendo does almost constant market research. If the winds of change are truly blowing away from what the DS is, what make you think the DS 2 is really going to stay the same? A hunch?
Nuclear Muffin
Banned
Anyone got a link to the DS/PSP E3 2004 announcement thread? I'd love to see that now! 
Earthstrike
Member
DiatribeEQ said:
Except that most people wouldn't give a crap about such a feature since they're ownership of GBA games implies ownership of a GBA and as such they're ability to access such a software library is without respect to ownership of the DS or PSP.
Son of Godzilla
Banned
Earthstrike said:
Bullshit, many people bought DS early on as a kind of GBA SP SP.
Man that would be a nice thread to find although it would've happened on the older server I think.Nuclear Muffin said:Anyone got a link to the DS/PSP E3 2004 announcement thread? I'd love to see that now!
From what I could remember not too many people were happy about the dual screens or even the touch screen "gimmick".. and sort of like the Wii, people were fearing the death of handheld gaming due to the fact that you would forever have to play games with the touch screen if Nintendo came out on top.
Earthstrike
Member
Son of Godzilla said:
And what percentage of people is many? 100% percent of DS sales were driven by people saying "Hmmm, I sure wish I could spend 250$ to play my GBA games on a system that uglier than my SP". Hey there may be some, but do you honestly think this is a significant percentage? The software sales of the DS would disagree with you.
RiskyChris
Banned
Earthstrike said:
I think the bullet point for backwards compatibility was a large factor in the decisions of many early adopters.
Pureauthor
Member
It would've taken a lot longer for me to get my DS had it not had BC.
Earthstrike
Member
RiskyChris said:
But could anyone really assign a number to it, or even ballpark it? I think I can even use NPD data to support my argument.
Now I can't post the numbers but since you're in this thread I'm assuming you have them. Look at year end christmas sales. If this GBA SP SP theory that's getting floated around were really true we would see a significant change (drop) in GBA YOY sales. If you look at the YOY sales before the ds was released for 2004 you would see GBA sales were already dropping and were down YOY. So why would GBA sales remain almost exactly unaffected given sales trends upon the release of the DS?
Maybe because this theory is damage control.
Edit: I'm not denying that there may be some purchasers who purchased for BC, I'm just arguing it's not significant enough to make any kind of argument that it was the reason PSP "lost" or the kind of spin diatribe was trying to make.
Flakster99 said:
Nintendo fanboys border on psychotic sometimes (I think the remaining Sega fans (especially the Sonic subset) are a bit worse). I'm not sure if it was true, but I remember reading something where they sent a box of some sort to Wal-Mart, making it look like a bomb with a note attached: "Nintendo doesn't get enough respect."
Grubdog did that sort of shit to GAF two years ago (for those who don't know, he began deleting entire users, starting with Drinky and MAF and anyone else who trolled Nintendo). Of course people who run the site would be pissed and don't want any more of it. To be honest, I can't think of a more effective solution. Looking at it now, out of context, yeah. It was a pretty shitty thing to condone.
C'mon now. You can carry the entire GBA library around on a single SD card. No mods, no patches, plug&play, and it's been available as a single download (and updated regularly) sometime since 2002.Mario said:
Yet from what I understand, GBA has performed historically about on par with other handhelds software (4.6 LTD tieratio). PSP is at 4 right now, and on a curve to beat that.
Now we can either assume that PSP without piracy should have tie much higher then usual handheld expectations, or that it just perform average for its sector.
Even NDS with its runaway success still has relatively low attach (4.5 at the moment), but granted, it is easy to pirate too.
Being at this again I might repeat what is important in the handheld market:
- Price
Still many handheld users are school kids for who (or their parents) it makes a big difference if it is $99, $199 or $249
- Conveinience
This is extremely important, it includes battery life, size, weight, robustness and how fast you can get in and out of a game. This is actually the most important point IMO and thats why the PSPLite rumours dont stop (and hopefully result in product some day). The only point where PSP shines is the sleep mode, which is mostly ignored.
- Brand name (like in the home console market)
Although the DS isnt named Gameboy most people were able to connect a Nintendo handheld to the gameboy brand, especially with it being able to play GBA games
- Design (and connnected to that the controls)
It is not like that doesnt count in the home console sector too. But for older handheld gamers thats extremely important, because you will be seen in the public. Not that the PSP design is bad or anything, but playing with a DS (more so DS Lite) can be mistaken for using some kind of PDA. For many (non)games it just isnt stupid button smashing that makes you look like a gaming nerd
What matters less in the handheld market:
- Graphics
It is not like handheld gamers dont like good graphics, but most are happy with nice colourful 2D graphics. While in the home console market this is often seen as kiddy, that was never the case in the handheld market
- Complex Worlds etc.
While many PSP owners sure find it cool to have complete GTA city in their hand, that doesnt really matter to the majority. The same is true for handheld games not needing impressive FMV cutscenes or speech.
This all doesnt mean things can not change, it was just not to expected it would happen from one day to another. That made it quite clear Sony would have to fight a steep uphill climb ahead. They succeeded in offering an alternative, but sure not in fighting Ninentendo domination (yet)
The fight isnt over but for Sony it is fought more and more at two fronts, Nintendo and the rising amount of other media players that offer games or are conveiniently integrated into a cell phone.
- Price
Still many handheld users are school kids for who (or their parents) it makes a big difference if it is $99, $199 or $249
- Conveinience
This is extremely important, it includes battery life, size, weight, robustness and how fast you can get in and out of a game. This is actually the most important point IMO and thats why the PSPLite rumours dont stop (and hopefully result in product some day). The only point where PSP shines is the sleep mode, which is mostly ignored.
- Brand name (like in the home console market)
Although the DS isnt named Gameboy most people were able to connect a Nintendo handheld to the gameboy brand, especially with it being able to play GBA games
- Design (and connnected to that the controls)
It is not like that doesnt count in the home console sector too. But for older handheld gamers thats extremely important, because you will be seen in the public. Not that the PSP design is bad or anything, but playing with a DS (more so DS Lite) can be mistaken for using some kind of PDA. For many (non)games it just isnt stupid button smashing that makes you look like a gaming nerd
What matters less in the handheld market:
- Graphics
It is not like handheld gamers dont like good graphics, but most are happy with nice colourful 2D graphics. While in the home console market this is often seen as kiddy, that was never the case in the handheld market
- Complex Worlds etc.
While many PSP owners sure find it cool to have complete GTA city in their hand, that doesnt really matter to the majority. The same is true for handheld games not needing impressive FMV cutscenes or speech.
This all doesnt mean things can not change, it was just not to expected it would happen from one day to another. That made it quite clear Sony would have to fight a steep uphill climb ahead. They succeeded in offering an alternative, but sure not in fighting Ninentendo domination (yet)
The fight isnt over but for Sony it is fought more and more at two fronts, Nintendo and the rising amount of other media players that offer games or are conveiniently integrated into a cell phone.
Grampa Simpson
Banned
Because even if important, backwards compatibility isnt everything. Right now PS2 owners can play all their PS2 and PS1 games, so the $600 they have to pay for the new content. Until that content doesnt get more compelling, why should they buy a machine mostly to buy their PS2 games?apujanata said:
Fafalada said:
Well, the PSP was doing pretty well in the first year, but looking at NPDs for 2006 the monthly sales per hardware unit dropped off significantly, so sales per unit have been slowing down quite a lot while hardware sales have remained pretty steady (jump last month aside).
PSP piracy really seemed to be taking off at the end of 2005, and only looks to have become more attractive especially when partnered with massive price drops in memory sticks and featured packed hacked firmwares. PSP ISO torrents are also seeing a lot of activity.
So, to me the trends are there to suggest a connection. Certainly its my opinion that piracy, whatever the platform, has a negative impact on software sales - regardless of whether said platform is a success or not.
To be fair, I really have to update my sales model (haven't plugged in PSP software numbers since February) and take a closer look at the current situation over the past few months.
Is a relatively low attach rate for DS perhaps more due the fact that a lot more casuals are picking that up who are happier to play the same game (or a couple of games) over and over again? I'm less familiar with the DS market and DS sales.
The PSP is easily the most conveinient to pirate system, but only for those who care about hacked firmwares etc.
I dont think that is a large enough group to actually make a huge difference in game sales. It is rather that many use their PSP as media player or just use it rarely (many of those able to pay for a rather pricey gadget - compared to GBA/DS - often have not much time left for playing games).
I dont think that is a large enough group to actually make a huge difference in game sales. It is rather that many use their PSP as media player or just use it rarely (many of those able to pay for a rather pricey gadget - compared to GBA/DS - often have not much time left for playing games).
quetz67 said:
I would certainly agree there are other factors that aren't helping such as what you mention as well as the fact a lot of PSP software is still just trying to shoehorn a console experience into a handheld with little consideration for the differences (there are some fantastic exceptions though).
Wolves Evolve
Member
quetz67 said:
Living in Europe (Australia Europe) means that the PS3 is not satisfactorily BC at the moment anyway. Maybe its not that big an issue, but personally I've just bought a replacement PStwo and it came at the cost of delaying a PS3 for the foreseeable future for this reason.
But, that aside, just some comments on pirate economics:
Its a bit obvious to say this, but people's habits are different if they can play for free rather than full price, meaning that sales losses aren't one-to-one - not every game pirated would have been sold. In fact, if a system gets a reputation for abusability (as I think the Ps2's easily burnable discs and Xbox 1's harddrive certainly did) then the impact on hardware could be very positive. Xbox sales were massive in Australia and part of that is the way in which home theatre culture warmed to the hacked Xbox as a media centre. So while obviously piracy decimates software, I just wanted to throw some caveats that way:
1. Free games are consumed differently than paid games (obvious, but for example, Sony and the other media corps calculate only lost revenue at total price),
2. Piracy can help hardware sales (South America and South East Asia have traditionally borne this out.)
3. The history of all media is littered with the corpses of devices that were too closed and unpiratable and the big winners have traditionally found ways to battle professional piracy while allowing a tech culture to pick apart their products. The smart path is to chase the moneymakers and steal the technology from the black market that suits you.
It is not that it isnt a success, just not the DS killer people exepected.mclem said:
Thats mostly because people are simple minded. They saw what the PS1 did to the N64 and just transferred that to the handheld market.
But take the media format as an example. In the fight PS1 vs. N64 the available space on the disc was one reason why the PS1 could go new ways in directions people liked.
In the handheld market using a disc based format mostly means long load times and high battery usage. It still has the advantages of having more space, but that doesnt count as much on a handheld.
I think knowing and taking this differences into account the future was forseeable. Not necessarily that the DS would sell that good, but sure that it wouldnt be destroyed by the PSP.
I love those 3-eyed aliens. Don't you love them? They're so cute, with their little wiggling antenna and all.
And soo greenely green.
I'd like to have a pet 3-eyed alien like that, I could dress him up, and we could go shopping for dorritos and nachos and then we'd eat in front of the TV.
In other news, quetz67 is insane, the batshit variety of insanity. Or a very, very good troll.
You shouldn't talk to him people, just read his posts and wonder how someone can either be so completely and utterly insane and yet somewhat functional, or such a good imitator of insanity and delusion.
And soo greenely green.
I'd like to have a pet 3-eyed alien like that, I could dress him up, and we could go shopping for dorritos and nachos and then we'd eat in front of the TV.
In other news, quetz67 is insane, the batshit variety of insanity. Or a very, very good troll.
You shouldn't talk to him people, just read his posts and wonder how someone can either be so completely and utterly insane and yet somewhat functional, or such a good imitator of insanity and delusion.
If you believe anything of what I wrote is wrong or stupid, please quote that and tell us your opinion or better proof why I am wrong.Masklinn said:
In case of PSP vs. DS history kinda confirmed my point of view, or do you think the DS over PSP success is completely for different reasons than the ones I stated?
Otherwise, why dont you shut up, I think just calling someone insane, a dumbass or whatever gets a little boring after some time (although I know some of the more simple minded dont get tired of it)
soundwave05
Member
The PSP lost because Nintendogs, Brain Training, and New Super Mario Bros. kicked the shit out of it, from a market P.O.V.
Really that simple.
Prior to Nintendogs coming out in Japan, the PSP was pulling ahead of the DS and outselling the DS there for several months in a row. Today, this is almost impossible to concieve.
In the US, the PSP was also doing well, beating the DS on a monthly basis for a good while, until Nintendogs hit which started to turn the tide (not fully though); then it got absolutely demolished with Brain Training + NSMB + DSL a few months later.
I'm pretty sure in Europe too ... pre-Nintendogs, PSP was beating the DS on a month-to-month basis. Now it's getting smoked. Killer apps are what move software ... Nintendo got the right killer apps at the right time, Sony did not.
The other crazy thing about those threads from 2004 ... imagine telling those people that Nintendo would demolish Sony in the handheld sector really without even needing Pokemon to do it. People would've laughed you off the boards. Don't get me wrong the DS Pokemon games are doing great, but the DS had already routed the PSP long before they came out.
Really that simple.
Prior to Nintendogs coming out in Japan, the PSP was pulling ahead of the DS and outselling the DS there for several months in a row. Today, this is almost impossible to concieve.
In the US, the PSP was also doing well, beating the DS on a monthly basis for a good while, until Nintendogs hit which started to turn the tide (not fully though); then it got absolutely demolished with Brain Training + NSMB + DSL a few months later.
I'm pretty sure in Europe too ... pre-Nintendogs, PSP was beating the DS on a month-to-month basis. Now it's getting smoked. Killer apps are what move software ... Nintendo got the right killer apps at the right time, Sony did not.
The other crazy thing about those threads from 2004 ... imagine telling those people that Nintendo would demolish Sony in the handheld sector really without even needing Pokemon to do it. People would've laughed you off the boards. Don't get me wrong the DS Pokemon games are doing great, but the DS had already routed the PSP long before they came out.
soundwave05
Member
quetz67 said:
Sony did have Loco Roco and Talkman ... that stuff just doesn't fly as well for them I guess.
They didn't have the touchscreen either ... being able to touch/interact with the puppies in Nintendogs or write directly on the screen in Brain Training is a core part of those two games. Without that, they really don't work.
Starchasing
Member
soundwave05 said:
Ive said the same thing for WiiSports. It is not the controller, it is not the software, it is both at the same time. It is the synergy created that made them million sellers. Also, thats the main reason 3rd parties are scared of competing with Nintendo. They are a hardware/software company , they make games for their software, and hardware for their software. This is a huge advantage.
I don't think the DS has done well so much because of its own virtues as the fact that PSP has been a crock of crap for the most part -- similar to the success of the Game Boy line before it.
For me, New Super Mario Bros. is one of the best games ever created. I'd rather play it than the old Super Mario Bros. games, and that says a lot. I long for the day that I can play it on a big screen without the touch-screen bulljiving.
But that's one of the few games I like on DS. There isn't much I like on DS...maybe a handful of games at best. But the PSP is worse: it has even fewer fun games and one of the blurriest, shittiest screens for games that have any significant motion. Then on top of it, the games generally cost more. Sony did well to get Dreamcast-quality graphics on a handheld, but that's just about all they did right.
For me, New Super Mario Bros. is one of the best games ever created. I'd rather play it than the old Super Mario Bros. games, and that says a lot. I long for the day that I can play it on a big screen without the touch-screen bulljiving.
But that's one of the few games I like on DS. There isn't much I like on DS...maybe a handful of games at best. But the PSP is worse: it has even fewer fun games and one of the blurriest, shittiest screens for games that have any significant motion. Then on top of it, the games generally cost more. Sony did well to get Dreamcast-quality graphics on a handheld, but that's just about all they did right.
Night_Trekker
Member
I can't believe I ignored this thread for so long.
A big "lol" at the people still holding on to the "third parties can't sell on Nintendo systems, IT'S A RULE" nonsense.
A big "lol" at the people still holding on to the "third parties can't sell on Nintendo systems, IT'S A RULE" nonsense.
