Its not a real "game" and its going to bomb so it does not count /s
I don't know why the "Sony has no first party games" bullshit is still being said.
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- Thread starter Nirolak
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Its not a real "game" and its going to bomb so it does not count /s
I don't know why the "Sony has no first party games" bullshit is still being said.
I'm sure it was justified in a ROI-focus group sort of way, that does not change the fact that a truly great game was rejected.
Everyone was calling the game shit when gameplay was shown for the first time.
The game sucked arse at TGS. You might not know this because you weren't on GAF but that was the reception.
But yeah in hindsight they truly fucked up by fully funding this game that now spawned 4 iterative sucessors. What a bunch of well trod focus group lamers at Sony.
Obviously those 4 iterative successors is worthy of the real applause, not the initial funding with nothing to go on.
And?
Even Shu says it was a huge mistake and that they did not recognize what it was, so what is there to argue about?
gundamkyoukai
Member
You know i always wonder but is it up to Shu to decide which games get bring over ?
Because SCEA have been passing on games for years since back in the PS1 era .
Because SCEA have been passing on games for years since back in the PS1 era .
No, that's not the reason Sony thought the game was bad. Demon Souls was in a poor technical form.
Yoshida spent 2 hours with the game and it had terrible frame rate. In addition, based on how games are developed in Japan he couldn't had a good idea of how the final game would turn out.
Here's more info:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-02-10-sony-admits-dropping-the-ball-with-demons-souls
So you never saw or played a game for a brief time, thought it was shit and later enjoyed the hell of it? I had the same reaction as he (and i think lot's of people) in regards to Demon Souls. When the game launched all the concepts behind it were completely strange and it required a lot of time to just get used to it.
Primethius
Banned
You can't really ignore the context to keep pushing the ultimate point. You were proven wrong on why Demon Souls was rejected.
Parotting that ultimate conclusion doesn't make your initial assertion less wrong.
Parotting that ultimate conclusion doesn't make your initial assertion less wrong.
?
Shu on Demon's Souls and what he thought of it after playing it:
In short, he thought is was garbage and rejected it and said that it was a mistake.
I still don't know what is being argue here.
Do you know what hindsight is?
Sony only funds well trod focus grouped mass market games and then the presented evidence for that is Demon's Souls.
I'm pretty sure you're the only one that reads that statement and goes yup checks out. Others would maybe expect something like Medal of Honor as an example.
I'm pretty sure you're the only one that reads that statement and goes yup checks out. Others would maybe expect something like Medal of Honor as an example.
It's funny because in nearly every dreams thread there is anposter that wants Sony to change dreams to match the mass market.
You keep saying that he "rejected it". If he really thought the game was that bad we would have canceled it, no? At least that's what some people in this thread think, that Yoshida has the power to kill any game he doesn't like.
He simply thought that game wasn't very good and in conjunction with other people decided not to publish it outside japan. And being fair i don't know how much more the game would had benefited if Sony choose to publish it. They aren't know because of their great marketing muscle of niche games.
I'm sure we'll get 2 more pages of goal post moving to justify that statement and how Tearaway is just cashing in on the Super Mario 64 hype and The Last Guardian was greenlid in 1993 because Shu loved Free Willy.
Or we will get post shitting on Yoshida because he had to focus test Horizon to prove that the female lead was not a problem for the selling power of the game.
Primethius
Banned
It should've. But Amazon still lists the $299 price point.
Console Wars nonsense mostly. Same reason why all the goals are all different sizes too. Eg, other variables like only Fall games counting, or indie games not counting, or the exact terms of the publishing being super important, and so on. I think when it became apparent that far more games are actually releasing on a certain console compared to the others, the narrative changed from 'no games' to first party games only. It will probably change again next year.
Nightengale
Member
The funny thing about the Demons Souls story is that despite thinking the game was bad, Sony funded and released the game. It remains a Sony IP because Sony paid to make the game, and the mistake was on the SCEA branch for not wanting to pick up what they perceive is a SCEJA-local initiative game that would not do well on the west.
Just like they did for Arc the Lad and the later Wild Arm games.
Demons Souls is a popular example to look back on "Sony messing up", but if anything, it's just another example among many where local regional teams are given creative freedom to develop content for their own markets, but are shunned by regional marketing partners for localisation because they think it's not worth it.
Which Sony has done many many many times prior to Demons Souls. Look back at many Sony Japan games, I'd say at least 30-40% were not published in the west by Sony, but some other publisher they license out to, because they didn't have confidence in the product.
Just like they did for Arc the Lad and the later Wild Arm games.
Demons Souls is a popular example to look back on "Sony messing up", but if anything, it's just another example among many where local regional teams are given creative freedom to develop content for their own markets, but are shunned by regional marketing partners for localisation because they think it's not worth it.
Which Sony has done many many many times prior to Demons Souls. Look back at many Sony Japan games, I'd say at least 30-40% were not published in the west by Sony, but some other publisher they license out to, because they didn't have confidence in the product.
Good question. I think it returned.
At least on best buy:
And Amazon is showing the bundles at the cheaper price with only some more in stock:
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Do not forget the, Bloodborne does not count as first party, cause, reasons. It is definitely getting pathetic this gen with all the "spin me right round" going on, lol.
Sony didn't say that no. Besides the reason might just he that the souls series has a reasonably big, very dedicated fan base.
I think you're mixing up Sony and MS here.
Sony 's been known for a long time to release or support more "weird" stuff than any other big player in the industry.
The first and second party goalpost moving has been fucking stupid. It does not matter if its first or second party game.
DriftingSpirit
Member
I've already figured the narrative will change to "Yeah, Sony finally released some decent first party games but look at how long it took to happen. If you put that long wait into perspective, it kinda diminishes the impact of the titles released this year :/"
Melchiah
Member
Not to mention, Ori and the Blind Forest being included, but The Vanishing of Ethan Carter and SOMA being excluded because they're available on PC as well.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
But, but, Titanfall and Sunset Overdrive? *fingers in ears, cannot hear you*
I just do not get why people are so invested, to even spin 1st and "2nd" party now. This never happened in the past like it does this gen, lol.
Every hardware maker passes over localizations here and there. Even Microsoft inexplicably did with things like Phantom Dust and Magatama when they were starving for Japanese content.
That said, I also think Sony was at their most progressive best in the PS1 era in terms of localizations. They brought over tons of stuff that had never really been given much chance before, from rhythm games to jrpgs to friggin Artdink sims. In ways they were a lot more exciting and offbeat than the relatively "safe" Nintendo and Sega who mostly stuck to their traditional wheelhouses. These days I feel like the roles have almost reversed, with Nintendo being the one going out of their way with "risky" localizations while Sony and Microsoft take a much more traditional core oriented approach.
MatrixMan.EXE
Member
This. I remember seeing the videos and thinking it looked like dog shit. So did a hell of a lot of other people. You can't pin that solely on Shu, if at all.
sörine;190541084 said:
I don't feel as though Sony don't need to bring risky localisations over because the likes of NISA, Atlus, TK etc are doing that for them. Nor do I see Nintendo taking that many localisation risks. Most of the niche content being localised are coming from the same people that are doing it on PlayStation platforms.
Chobel
Member
Good question. I think it returned.
At least on best buy:
And Amazon is showing the bundles at the cheaper price with only some more in stock:
Thanks! Yeah, it looks like XBO price went back to $349 ($399).
Maybe you have more insight into that because I think the lack of global strategy for the SCEWWS thing and having to convince the individual regional branches to spare you marketing dollars for your own games is silly.
(Silly as in you should have a united front when it comes to that and always give a minimum amount of guaranteed marketing. Of course I might be massively wrong because SCEA did everything right with Destiny, Battlefront and COD.)
I think nowadays they are pretty good about localization across the various regions they operate in, though.
Nightengale
Member
I'm not talking marketing dollars. Just the nature of how in the past, regional Sony divisions do this ALL THE TIME with products developed by regional counterparts that they skipped over.
People act like Demons Souls is some fucking revelation of a mistake by Sony when in reality, SCEJ/Shu saw the project through to the end.
Their mistake was treating it like Wild Arms 4 and Boku no Natsuyasumi.
You are absolutely right. Demon's Souls was not the outlier it's made out to be.
But I was more thinking nowadays they all operate under a global sofware portfolio manager, which wasn't true 10 years ago but they still have the regional branches that seemingly have to be individually convinced if the game is a fit for them.
Nintendo also seemingly works that way but Microsoft does not. Maybe because there is not the Japanese legacy which differs culturally from their target markets.
Anyway, spot on point regarding Demon's Souls.
Welfare
Member
Or Bound.
But I think the regional approach makes sense to some degree. The "WAH GRAVITY RUSH NOT GETTING RETAIL RELEASE" thread was a prime example. This game won't crack 100k in the US launch month and there's nothing they can do to make it crack that. I wouldn't spend any money marketing this. People saying, "SCEA doesn't give a shit!! WAH!" are right. They don't. Because they know their market.
I meant more like a minimum amount of support, like mentioning it on the blog, including it in release calendar overviews and uploading localized trailers.
That people should just accept that some games are so niche that they will only exist in digital form like Gravity Rush or Yakuza is more on the audience realizing how insignificant they are in the grand scheme of things.
I think by not going for aligned world wide releases and how the Internet works is a mistake in every case though.
That people should just accept that some games are so niche that they will only exist in digital form like Gravity Rush or Yakuza is more on the audience realizing how insignificant they are in the grand scheme of things.
I think by not going for aligned world wide releases and how the Internet works is a mistake in every case though.
Shin-Ra
Junior Member
I remember Gamersyde's first Demon's Souls videos, you could hear the Scottish chap mocking the game in the background.
Quantic Dream, Ovosonico...
Supermassive being given the chance to turn Until Dawn into what it became
Numerous internally curated indie devs like thatgamecompany
Media Molecule (let's give Phil Harrison full credit for their start, but management since for Tearaway and very costly Dreams)
Numerous post-God of War David Jaffe directed games
Numerous niche Japan Studio games
Naughty Dog and much less successful studios given freedom to try new IP late in console lifecycle
Games like WiLD and RIME
Quantic Dream, Ovosonico...
Supermassive being given the chance to turn Until Dawn into what it became
Numerous internally curated indie devs like thatgamecompany
Media Molecule (let's give Phil Harrison full credit for their start, but management since for Tearaway and very costly Dreams)
Numerous post-God of War David Jaffe directed games
Numerous niche Japan Studio games
Naughty Dog and much less successful studios given freedom to try new IP late in console lifecycle
Games like WiLD and RIME
No, it happened a lot last gen with the Xbox 360 -- especially "indie games" not counting. Just the same ol' wars with people being hypocrites on both sides.
I have to disagree with that. You don't see Sony taking risks on things like Codename STEAM, DQ remakes, Devil's Third, LBX, etc. And even outside retail Nintendo seems to be casting a much wider net with things like Fatal Frame, NES Remix, Pushmo, Kersploosh, etc. Really Nintendo just localizes a ton of content in general, both first and third party, both sure bets and expermental risks.
No, Sony doesn't have to publish Persona, Disgaea or Atelier, but they've never published those sorts of oktaku targeted games (and Nintendo doesn't generally either). There's no change there really, even though there is with SCE's localization commitments. They've pretty much dropped 3rd party localizations (outside the limited 3PP group, none if which they've then published afaik) and with 1st party they've gotten choosier with what to bring and how to bring it (retail vs digital only). I'd also say part of this has to do with the relatively decreased output from and significance of Japan Studio though, and in some respects that may improving a little from last gen even so we'll see where it goes.
While you're absolutely right that this is an never ending ongoing platform war on GAF there is a technicality that might have been accurately been argued in the past.
You couldn't self-publish on 360 for a very long time while you could on PS3, which meant many indies had to sign with publishers for their slots. Some of those went with MS due to necessity and were counted in list warz. Those of course wouldn't be reflective of actual MS output. Not that it matters now because the better model (self-publishing) ultimately won but it's not 1:1 between then and now.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I have been gaming for over 30 years. Been involved when I was a child (Sega vs. SNES, argued SNES was more powerful, yet I loved and owned more of the Genesis software), and witnessed every console war. I never seen the goal posts move from what is considered an exclusive IP with the "1st and 2nd" BS, like I have this gen. It was mentioned last gen, but not to try and discredit a game being exclusive, it was just to show a developer was not owned by the console publisher.
Yep.
sörine;190546292 said:
Nonsense. They publish and localize things like Oreshika, Freedom Wars, Hohokum, Tokyo Jungle, Murasaki Baby, Puppeteer etc. Not risky at all, these are all guaranteed million sellers lmao.
And just LOL @ using Nintendo as the gold standard here. They take forever to localize things. Yoshi had a random four month wait until it hit the states. Xenoblade had to wait nearly a year. A bunch of their 3DS games next year are just late localizations.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
Well, they're 2nd to Sega in that department, but among the current crop, yes, Sony is very well known for that.
That's why they've been impressing me so much, the irony in them embodying that side of Sega more than Nintendo and definitely Microsoft.
sörine;190546292 said:
But in Nintendo's case, it's out of desperation. Just like how out of desperation Sony pushed for games like Echochrome, Fat Princess, Puppeteer etc. on PS3, and Sega with games like Space Channel 5, Jet Grind Radio and Sea-man on Dreamcast. History tends to prove that competition and desperation directly influence the level of risk-taking publishers often take, and I'd say it's competition from the indie circuit that is fueling some of the PS4 content like Dreams, which I'm personally very excited and happy about.
What it means at the end of the day though is just down to subjective taste, but personally I don't see what Nintendo's doing being in the same league as what Sony or Sega did w/ PS3 and Dreamcast, not even close tbh. I don't care much for otaku or anime-driven licensed games and outside of efforts like Splatoon Nintendo's pushes have been more window-dressing, otherwise covering well-trodden ground for them. That'd help to explain a large reason for Wii U's current plight.
Xenoblade didn't take a year, it was about 7 months. Which is slightly faster than Oreshika actually, and that's with a retail release worldwide. Also while Yoshi's American delay was confounding, it actually released in Europe first before Japan so it's probably not the best example to cite when claiming Nintendo localizations take forever.
Your Sony list is also confusing when we're talking about Japanese localization and you bring up European made games like Murasaki Baby (Italy) or Hokohum (UK). I'm not saying Sony's a risk averse pub in general, their curated indie picks are top notch, but their Japanese localization efforts have sort of floundered as SCE has moved more and more more western focused during the 2000s.
Nintendo's not the gold standard either, they make tons of mistakes all the time. But they are lightyears ahead of Sony and MS here in this one regard, whether it works out for them (Splatoon, Bravely Default, Tomodachi Life, etc) or not (Wonderful 101, Codename STEAM, Yo-Kai Watch, etc). You just don't see the other hardware makers putting these sorts of resources into Japanese development and localization, and it's a shame because both Sony and MS seemed much better on this front in the past.
BradleyLove
Member
There's opinions, and then there's just wrong. Wow.