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PlayStation has canceled two more live-service games, from subsidiaries Bend and Bluepoint, Bloomberg has learned

Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
They probably lost like 2b in that process. Good strategy Mr hulst. Fairgame is the next 70 metacritic banger and hopefully last day for him in the company. Maybe another guy can save Sony.

Do you think Sony has the means to actually do f2p games so those average gaas games actually have a chance.

Iam not against gaas per se but the only I try any gaas game from them is f2p.
How much money do you think SpaceX has made crashing rockets over the last 10 years?

You spend money and fail repeatedly to learn and improve. This is the most ambitious PlayStation has ever been and the garbage men resent it because they're short term thinkers.
 

yogaflame

Member
They probably lost like 2b in that process. Good strategy Mr hulst. Fairgame is the next 70 metacritic banger and hopefully last day for him in the company. Maybe another guy can save Sony.

Do you think Sony has the means to actually do f2p games so those average gaas games actually have a chance.

Iam not against gaas per se but the only I try any gaas game from them is f2p.
If the Sony management especially the west managers are really thinking and researching, they could have use some of the old IP of Sony as live service or gaas like killzone, resistance, warhawk, and socom. Those games are perfect for gaas or live service. But for me I still want to see those games revive in SP with story mode but with MP mode.
 
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Fabieter

Member
How much money do you think SpaceX has made crashing rockets over the last 10 years?

You spend money and fail repeatedly to learn and improve. This is the most ambitious PlayStation has ever been and the garbage men resent it because they're short term thinkers.

How much money did the government spend over the years on spaceX? Its sponsored by the guy who wants to Mars soo bad.
 

Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
How much money did the government spend over the years on spaceX? Its sponsored by the guy who wants to Mars soo bad.
And yet SpaceX are now the leaders in space travel.

PlayStation is trying to become the leaders in GAAS. This is just how it goes.

Short term thinking.
 

Fabieter

Member
And yet SpaceX are now the leaders in space travel.

PlayStation is trying to become the leaders in GAAS. This is just how it goes.

Short term thinking.

They dont go with the time. They still try to sell you Premium gaas games. If you aint established like cod or gta no one will buy your mp gaas games.

They have to go f2p or everything will fail.
 
The Sony people in the PS2 era is not the Sony people in the PS5 era now.
Unlike Nintendo, which still has Miyamoto on the helm...
This is true if your goal is short term profits.

PlayStation is playing the long game. Long game strategists are always ridiculed by short game thinkers.
You could say the same thing about Microsoft and cloud gaming...

In 20 years from now physical consoles won't exist. Sony will be 100% Azure-based by then.
You only think it's killing their platform because you're a short term thinker. (At least in this setting)

They know their "PlayStation as a platform" is weakening, which is why they're building "Marathon as the platform" and "Gummy Bears as the platform" and "Fairgames as the platform".

People who value the short term over the long term ALWAYS think long term strategy will lead to ruin. Everyone is playing their part.
If they're such long-term thinkers as you claim, they should invest in BTC.
The OG management are gone but the fans from Ps1 up to now, which I admit including me, are still here being patient, hopeful and loyal to Sony PS brand.
Dunno about that.

I had way more PSN friends during the PS3/4 era compared to now.

Tons of people have left...
How much money do you think SpaceX has made crashing rockets over the last 10 years?

You spend money and fail repeatedly to learn and improve. This is the most ambitious PlayStation has ever been and the garbage men resent it because they're short term thinkers.
I don't resent GaaS, nor do I consider myself a "garbage man" (I assume you mean SP-only gamers/MP haters).

Wanna tell me why Sony doesn't revive old and beloved MP games that could potentially become the next GaaS (UC3 MP was very akin to Fortnite in terms of MTX/wacky skins), all while not breaking the bank?

Case in point:

They can do GaaS in a way that doesn't insult the PS audience and in fact be very, very profitable = win-win situation.

Hulst is clueless for this role, he doesn't even revive Killzone (GG's baby), let alone ND's.

Nobody in the ND MP community asked for Factions 2 - Battle Royale edition, trust me.
If the Sony management especially the west managers are really thinking and researching, they could have use some of the old IP of Sony as live service or gaas like killzone, resistance, warhawk, and socom. Those games are perfect for gaas or live service. But for me I still want to see those games revive in SP with story mode but with MP mode.
Believe it or not, I've tried to contact Hulst on Instagram, but chances are he doesn't even read his messages.

During the PS3 era we had a dedicated Sony blog site to offer suggestions for improvement (does anyone remember it?).

They dont go with the time. They still try to sell you Premium gaas games. If you aint established like cod or gta no one will buy your mp gaas games.

They have to go f2p or everything will fail.
They already did, long before Fortnite was released:

Can you guys imagine if Sony had captured the multi-billion TPS MP market instead of Epic Games?

Sony would have been able to fund tons more SP exclusives and Epic Games would be piss poor.

In my eyes they're totally incompetent for not capitalizing on Uncharted 3 MP (3, not 4 which was a disaster).
 
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Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
They dont go with the time. They still try to sell you Premium gaas games. If you aint established like cod or gta no one will buy your mp gaas games.

They have to go f2p or everything will fail.
Like Helldivers 2?
Wanna tell me why Sony doesn't revive old and beloved MP games that could potentially become the next GaaS (UC3 MP was very akin to Fortnite in terms of MTX/wacky skins), all while not breaking the bank?
I dont think their old IP has much relavant market pull. They all evaporated because they didn't connect with gamers.

BRO....wake up!!!! Going all or mostly GAAS is not a good long term play.
You've been around enough to know they never went "all GAAS". Going "mostly GAAS" makes sense because PlayStation saw the market was mostly GAAS (revenue wise). The GAAS market went from 0% on PlayStation in 2013 to around 50% by 2018. That 5 year explosion means it would be a fireable offense for them not to aggressively pursue it. This is the kind of stuff all people, not on gaming twitter/forums, understands as common sense.
 
I dont think their old IP has much relavant market pull. They all evaporated because they didn't connect with gamers.
That's not true (I'm giving you official Sony sources):
This game got 3 years (2011-2014) of support and tons of MTX (GaaS-like policy) on a "failed" console (PS3).

Mind you, Uncharted 3 MP is only going to become more popular on a more popular console (PS4/5). You realize this could easily have been Sony's Fortnite, right?



You keep saying Sony shouldn't lose billions of dollars due to garbage men, and yet, you sound like a garbage man to me. ;)

I get it, recency bias is a thing (even for Sony execs), but still... PS3 had the most diverse MP line-up (Uncharted, Killzone, Resistance, Warhawk, SOCOM, MAG, Twisted Metal etc.)
 

Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day
If their next 6 GAAS games flop, you may have a point, but right now they're one for two.

It's always funny to see the mental gymnastics of people who say "Live Service is a crap shoot" rationalize PlayStation cutting titles they predict will fail.

Can't have it both ways.
 

Fabieter

Member
If their next 6 GAAS games flop, you may have a point, but right now they're one for two.

It's always funny to see the mental gymnastics of people who say "Live Service is a crap shoot" rationalize PlayStation cutting titles they predict will fail.

Can't have it both ways.

Sure because they cancel everything
 

Fabieter

Member
I like how we only now just started counting cancelled games for some reason. I wonder why we never counted them before...

Actually I do.

Well because we still always had games coming out. Their gaas initiative don't show any promise. Fairgame will definitely be the next super bomb.
 

Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
Well because we still always had games coming out. Their gaas initiative don't show any promise. Fairgame will definitely be the next super bomb.
That only matters when the entire market is comprised of cotton candy games. If everything only entertains you for a week or two then you have to jingle the next piece of cotton candy in front of gamers eyes. Lead them from one to the next.

We're in the new era, where games are the platform. Where games are giving players thousands of hours of entertainment.

Old era thinkers are applying their outdated benchmarks to the new era. Not great thinking.
 

Fabieter

Member
That only matters when the entire market is comprised of cotton candy games. If everything only entertains you for a week or two then you have to jingle the next piece of cotton candy in front of gamers eyes. Lead them from one to the next.

We're in the new era, where games are the platform. Where games are giving players thousands of hours of entertainment.

Old era thinkers are applying their outdated benchmarks to the new era. Not great thinking.

Yea can't wait to play something gaas games for a month and move on because not enough people stick with the game.
 

Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
Yea games like the finals that die super fast are super intriguing.



Regularly updated a year after release. Averages around 20k CCU. Will no doubt continue serving it's 300k DAU for many many months ahead.

If The Finals is "dead" then what does that make Alan Wake 2, FF7 Rebirth, and Hi Fi Rush...3 supposedly great games that released the same year as The Finals? Those three are ghost towns today.

 

yurinka

Member
A) its hardly a gaas game. The first major patch came one year after the release and it dropped by 80 to 90%. It's basically like a sp games in that regard
It's one of top 10 top grossing games of the year in Steam.

And it's 100% GaaS: gets frequent updates with tweaks, fixes and additions, including new content every month. Plus has recurrent monetization with microtransactions and passes, and many hundreds/thoudsands of hours of MP grinding and unlock all the stuff.

B) Even a stopped clock is right twice a day
4 of the 6 GaaS of this GaaS push they have in the market are very successful: MLB, Gran Turismo 7, Destiny 2 and Helldivers 2.

In addition to Helldivers 2, like every year Destiny 2 is also one of the top 10 top grossing games on Steam of the year. Some people made some numbers with a recent Circana number and estimate around 15M sales so far for GT7.
 
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Miyamoto retired from developing games in the Nintendo 64 generation.
Miyamoto is responsible for recruiting new talent in Nintendo.

He's behind Splatoon's creation, in case you didn't know.
That only matters when the entire market is comprised of cotton candy games. If everything only entertains you for a week or two then you have to jingle the next piece of cotton candy in front of gamers eyes. Lead them from one to the next.

We're in the new era, where games are the platform. Where games are giving players thousands of hours of entertainment.

Old era thinkers are applying their outdated benchmarks to the new era. Not great thinking.
If you like cotton candy, and only cotton candy, I get it.

I tend to classify those gamers as "tourists" though.
Dude, I have over 2200 hours in Uncharted 3 MP (let alone 2) and the PS5 has nothing to offer me 1st party MP-wise.

I have tons of PSN friends that stopped playing, because they don't feel engaged with the PS ecosystem anymore (unlike in the PS3 era). Engagement is the keyword, right?

I'm no "tourist/garbage man" (keep bringing the insults, I'll keep debunking them one by one) as you probably can imagine and yet, you still haven't responded to my post as to why Sony shouldn't reboot/remaster UC3 MP with minimal effort/cost and enjoy high ROI = low risk.

Mind you, people are trying to revive the emulated version via LAN mode, which means Sony won't get a single dime off of it:



You think it's wise to alienate long-time fans that supported Sony during the difficult PS3 era? Piracy/PCMR won't do Sony any favors, that's for sure...

Even Nintendo has a dedicated/exclusive 3rd person MP shooter (Splatoon) these days, while Sony has nothing to show for it.

In my eyes Sony's GaaS policy is destined to fail if they don't reboot old and beloved IPs that people crave to play (otherwise they wouldn't bother with emulation).

Remasters/remakes are very popular in SP franchises and there's absolutely no indication they won't be equally successful in MP too.
 

yurinka

Member
Miyamoto is responsible for recruiting new talent in Nintendo.
He doesn't work in Human Resources.

He's behind Splatoon's creation, in case you didn't know.
No, he isn't. He doesn't work as developer since the Nintendo 64. But since 2002 he works as 'Representative Director' saying stuff in promotional videos etc. or 'overviewing' the theme park or the movie. He also has 'fellow' as job position since 2015.

He's basically retired but continues there for the photos and get cheered by the fans when makes a short appearance in a promotional video from time to time.
 
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yurinka

Member
I suggest to read Nintendo's Splatoon 1 interview about how Miyamoto chose certain people to create this new IP during the Wii U era.
I suggest you to don't believe the PR bullshit and instead look at the game credits to see who really worked as game directors and game designers of the game:
https://www.mobygames.com/game/73389/splatoon/credits/wii-u/?autoplatform=true

Splatoon had 2 game directors (Yusuke Amano and Tsubasa Sakaguchi) and 10 game designers, none of them was Miyamoto. Miyamoto got listed in all Nintendo games as 'General Producer', as the CEO was also listed as 'Executive Producer', even if the actual game producer was another guy (Hisashi Nogami).

Note: In Japan they use 'planning/planner' for the role known in the west as 'game design/game designer'. They use instead 'design/designer' for the role known in the west as 'game art/artists and animators'
 
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I suggest you to don't believe the PR bullshit and instead look at the game credits to see who really worked as game directors and game designers of the game:
https://www.mobygames.com/game/73389/splatoon/credits/wii-u/?autoplatform=true

Splatoon had 2 game directors (Yusuke Amano and Tsubasa Sakaguchi) and 10 game designers, none of them was Miyamoto. Miyamoto got listed in all Nintendo games as 'General Producer', as the CEO was also listed as 'Executive Producer', even if the actual game producer was another guy (Hisashi Nogami).

Note: In Japan they use 'planning/planner' for the role known in the west as 'game design/game designer'. They use instead 'design/designer' for the role known in the west as 'game art/artists and animators'
You don't realize Miyamoto chose those directors... there's a reason Splatoon still has that fabled "Nintendo magic".
 

yurinka

Member
You don't realize Miyamoto chose those directors... there's a reason Splatoon still has that fabled "Nintendo magic".
I highly doubt this is a task of a 'Representative Director' or a 'Fellow'.

In any case, the directors and game designers are the ones who, also combined with the other devs like the artists and programmers, create the game. A team effort made by hundreds of people.
 
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I highly doubt this is a task of a 'Representative Director' or a 'Fellow'.

In any case, the directors and game designers are the ones who, also combined with the other devs like the artists and programmers, create the game. A team effort made by hundreds of people.
It's always a team effort (from video games to CPUs/GPUs), but leadership quality/direction is paramount.

You think nVidia would be the same without Jensen Huang?
 

ArtHands

Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
Miyamoto is responsible for recruiting new talent in Nintendo.

He's behind Splatoon's creation, in case you didn't know.


Dude, I have over 2200 hours in Uncharted 3 MP (let alone 2) and the PS5 has nothing to offer me 1st party MP-wise.

I have tons of PSN friends that stopped playing, because they don't feel engaged with the PS ecosystem anymore (unlike in the PS3 era). Engagement is the keyword, right?

I'm no "tourist/garbage man" (keep bringing the insults, I'll keep debunking them one by one) as you probably can imagine and yet, you still haven't responded to my post as to why Sony shouldn't reboot/remaster UC3 MP with minimal effort/cost and enjoy high ROI = low risk.

Mind you, people are trying to revive the emulated version via LAN mode, which means Sony won't get a single dime off of it:



You think it's wise to alienate long-time fans that supported Sony during the difficult PS3 era? Piracy/PCMR won't do Sony any favors, that's for sure...

Even Nintendo has a dedicated/exclusive 3rd person MP shooter (Splatoon) these days, while Sony has nothing to show for it.

In my eyes Sony's GaaS policy is destined to fail if they don't reboot old and beloved IPs that people crave to play (otherwise they wouldn't bother with emulation).

Remasters/remakes are very popular in SP franchises and there's absolutely no indication they won't be equally successful in MP too.


Nintendo tend to have reputation of employees with high retention rate, so the younger generations has stayed under Miyamoto and the old guards for quite a long time. Unlike Sony who buy various GAAS studios and closes studios when they are not performing, Nintendo focuses on nurturing their talents.

I believe Miyamoto and his generation of developers has been teaching and guiding these younger talents in the last decade or so, impart the Nintendo DNA to ensure a smooth transition when they retire in the near future.
 
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Fabieter

Member


Regularly updated a year after release. Averages around 20k CCU. Will no doubt continue serving it's 300k DAU for many many months ahead.

If The Finals is "dead" then what does that make Alan Wake 2, FF7 Rebirth, and Hi Fi Rush...3 supposedly great games that released the same year as The Finals? Those three are ghost towns today.



If you support a gaas like you should that comes at a big cost. A year of gaas support can be more expensive than a complet aaa sp game. I doubt Sony is aiming for 20k ccu for their gaas games.
 

Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
If you support a gaas like you should that comes at a big cost. A year of gaas support can be more expensive than a complet aaa sp game. I doubt Sony is aiming for 20k ccu for their gaas games.
If the math doesn't work for these studios, they close up shop.

If the math works out for these studios, they continue support.

The Finals doesn't seem to be dead.
 

Fabieter

Member
And it's 100% GaaS: gets frequent updates with tweaks, fixes and additions, including new content every month. Plus has recurrent monetization with microtransactions and passes, and many hundreds/thoudsands of hours of MP grinding and unlock all the stuff.

most of those updates are barebones. If that's like they handle all their gaas games than they should 100% stop trying
4 of the 6 GaaS of this GaaS push they have in the market are very successful: MLB, Gran Turismo 7, Destiny 2 and Helldivers 2.

In addition to Helldivers 2, like every year Destiny 2 is also one of the top 10 top grossing games on Steam of the year. Some people made some numbers with a recent Circana number and estimate around 15M sales so far for GT7.

Destiny is the only real gaas out of that list and that shit talked hard since Sony took over.

If the math doesn't work for these studios, they close up shop.

If the math works out for these studios, they continue support.

The Finals doesn't seem to be dead.

Yea they could be happy with staying afloat. I doubt they are making alot of money.

And yes let's not pretent that Sony need a fortnite level of hit to even offset all their looses and I highly doubt current Sony will manage to archive that.
 

Fabieter

Member
What do you base that on?

I base my opinions on the same metric you do—concurrent players. For me, 30,000 isn't a lot. Big games like Fortnite and League of Legends have millions of concurrent players all the time, and supporting games like The Finals is incredibly expensive.

Can't wait for fairgame to disappoint Sony and us yet again since most people won't even try it after Concord if its not f2p from the start.
 

yurinka

Member
most of those updates are barebones. If that's like they handle all their gaas games than they should 100% stop trying

Destiny is the only real gaas out of that list and that shit talked hard since Sony took over.
Arrowhead released a lot of new content and features in less than a year. Specially considering they are a way smaller team.

There aren't 'real' or 'fake' GaaS. Games are GaaS or not, independently of if you like them or not.

Yea they could be happy with staying afloat. I doubt they are making alot of money.
And yes let's not pretent that Sony need a fortnite level of hit to even offset all their looses and I highly doubt current Sony will manage to archive that.

Facts say they are making a lot of money and that they aren't losing money at all:
images%2FvoltaxMediaLibrary%2Fmmsport%2Fvideo_games%2F01hz4cpay9txzjjgnymq.jpg


Sony first party games FY23
  • PS: $905.89M
  • Outside PS (also including addons revenue): $667.35M
Sony first party games H1 FY24
  • PS: $248,38M
  • Outside PS (also including addons revenue): $330.12M
image.png

image.png


Other than this, both Destiny 2 and Helldivers 2 are among the top 10 top grossing games of 2024 in Steam, and Helldivers 2 has been their most successful launch ever.

We don't know the Fortnite numbers so we can't compare. But 4 of the first 6 GaaS of the '12 IPs with GaaS' initiative are very successful. And as we can see above, in FY23 their first party games made over $1.5B (+addons in PS), enough to fund half a dozen AAA games with the revenue made in that single fiscal year. Or also made $578.5M in H2 FY24, enough to fund a couple AAA games more with the revenue made that half a year.

It's always a team effort (from video games to CPUs/GPUs), but leadership quality/direction is paramount.

You think nVidia would be the same without Jensen Huang?
I think everything is important, from top executives to the testers and everything in the middle: if somebody fucks it up can ruin the project.

Management can ruin a project setting the wrong company strategy, the editorial/catalog team choosing the type of games they have to make and that they greenlight, producers making super wrong or unrealistic resources/time/budget estimations, directors choosing a direction that doesn't work or isn't clear enough, designers setting the wrong features, balancing, difficulting or progression, the coders making shitty broken code, the artists making awful art, the QA team not detecting enough bugs (or what really happens, devs ignoring tons of detected bugs or not having time to fix them), marketing making a wrong decision when choosing their target demographics or marketing strategy, HR hiring or promoting the wrong candidates...

And people in each role does a lot of things and there are people in charge of many things. In big companies, top executives are busy with other things they have to do, and don't waste time working on making the 'low-level' things of the projects themselves, mainly because they normally they have more important things to do and already have people in charge of each 'low-level' thing that are better at this than them or at least can spend on it the time it requires. Specially because like in case of a game publisher they work in lots of games at the same time and a person can't handle alone a whole project, even less will be able to handle all of them.

I worked on a tp AAA publisher, and previously on that studio before it was bought, where I worked directly with like a dozen people who before or later has been top staff at other top AAA publishers. Plus also have friends who run indie, top mobile or top AAA (including GOTY winner) dev studios plus random devs anywhere.

From my experience, some top executives -often not known publicly, aren't PR stars- make a difference in thier companies, while other executives don't do anything or do a shitty job and are there jsut basically collecting money in that top position because they were a big investor or were in the past very successful somewhere. In a couple cases I know it happened to be PR star of the company or the team, the public face. For some reason publicly people assume these public faces are the creators or who do a lot of the work of their products just because they happen to be the PR face.

Regarding Jensen Huang, I have no idea. As I remember I don't personally know anyone who works at Nvidia, so even less in top positions. The company is performing super well and I assume that a part of it was thanks to him getting the best GPUs for mining crypto recently and for AI more recently. But I'm sure he doesn't personally designs the each new GPU or manufactures the cards: he has other people to do so.
 
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Fabieter

Member
We don't know the Fortnite numbers so we can't compare. But 4 of the first 6 GaaS of the '12 IPs with GaaS' initiative are very successful

For all we know they might had alot more in the pipeline, maybe they even cancelled 12 gaas games at this point. And of course they are making money but hulst b decision making cut in their margins like big times. They are doing a really bad job.
 
Facts say they are making a lot of money and that they aren't losing money at all:
images%2FvoltaxMediaLibrary%2Fmmsport%2Fvideo_games%2F01hz4cpay9txzjjgnymq.jpg
Using fiat dollars isn't the best metric to claim the PS5 era is more "profitable" compared to previous gens...

How much did a house cost during the PS3/4 era and how much it costs today?

FED printed 10 trillion dollars in 2020, more dollars than they had printed during the previous 200 years.
 

yurinka

Member
For all we know they might had alot more in the pipeline, maybe they even cancelled 12 gaas games at this point. And of course they are making money but hulst b decision making cut in their margins like big times. They are doing a really bad job.
We know that they planned to release 12. Out of them, already released 6 of them and have more than 6 under development.

We also know that the game industry started 50 years ago it's normal to don't greenlight some pitches and to cancel games under development. For GaaS too, in fact one of the advantages of GaaS for companies is that they can release them before spending the full budget, so if it doesn't perform well enough they can axe it before they spent all that money. And even before release during early access/soft launches/playtests the key metrics are scientifically measured helping them to guess the performance before scaling it up for a global audience (in case of mobile games most get cancelled before being released in hard launch/worldwide).
 
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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
We know that they planned to release 12. Out of them, already released 6 of them and have more than 6 under development.

We also know that the game industry started 50 years ago it's normal to don't greenlight some pitches and to cancel games under development.
Whats the list of 12 which 6 are out and 6 underdevelopment? How about the cancelled games?
 

Fabieter

Member
We know that they planned to release 12. Out of them, already released 6 of them and have more than 6 under development.

We also know that the game industry started 50 years ago it's normal to don't greenlight some pitches and to cancel games under development. For GaaS too, in fact one of the advantages of GaaS for companies is that they can release them before spending the full budget, so if it doesn't perform well enough they can axe it before they spent all that money. And even before release during early access/soft launches/playtests the key metrics are scientifically measured helping them to guess the performance before scaling it up for a global audience (in case of mobile games most get cancelled before being released in hard launch/worldwide).

No we don't know if it's still 12 games in 2025. Those numbers are old. Alot has been cancelled and most likely alot has been added to the pipeline.

Gaas games are just as expensive as normal games pre release just that that you have further cash flow down the line and added cost of course as well. Games like genshin impact costs a few hundred millions every year to maintain.
 
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