Mr Reasonable
Completely Unreasonable
Nintendo will announce it the day after the Christmas returns period ends.
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Rumor: There's now two different sources saying that the Nintendo Switch 2 will be revealed in January 2025 and released in March 2025.
- Thread starter Daniel_Mallorca1985
- Start date
- Rumor Hardware
Mr Reasonable
Completely Unreasonable
And people will say it's glorious. That's how Nintendo roll. Nothing changes.
Mr Reasonable
Completely Unreasonable
They definitely can chatehzfor updates. They've been doing it for 40 years!
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Robb
Gold Member
I don’t think people are excited for the actual hardware specs. At least I’m not.
New generation, new slew of games. We haven’t gotten a new Mario Kart in over 10 years. Pretty sure it’s been 10 years since Donkey Kong as well. 7 years since the last 3D Mario game. etc. etc. etc.
They’ve been cooking a lot of stuff for a long time. That’s what’s exciting.
Aldric
Member
It's also the biggest power jump for Nintendo hardware in more than a decade. The specs in themselves are obviously unimpressive in the global context of the industry but the interesting thing is the kind of games studios like EAD Tokyo, Next Level Games, Retro Studios and Monolith Soft will be able to pull off on relatively modern hardware while they've been stuck on PS3+ specs since 2012.
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Robb
Gold Member
For sure, if the leaked specs are true and we’ll get PS4 performance + DLSS that’ll be a huge jump from current Switch for sure. Can’t wait to see the software.
Not that I’d expect Nintendo to go to the same lengths as Sony on the visual front, but stuff like Horizon Zero Dawn/Forbidden West still look absolutely incredible on the PS4. If PS4 software is any indication we’re in for good time.
CS Lurker
Member
It's not.
It only takes a bit of hardware knowledge to know that the T239 makes absolutely no sense to be used in a Pro version (which is only rumors BTW, and we have no solid evidence of that)
Even Sony didn't change the CPU on their Pro models, but you believe Nintendo would double the CPU count (while using much faster cores, A57<A78), have a 6 times bigger GPU (256<1536), triple the amount of RAM while almost quintuple it's bandwidth, not to mention the change in Bus (64<128), which requires a new memory controller in a different node. Also adding Tensor Cores AND RT cores, and all that on a completely new architecture (which required a not-easy-to-accomplish compatability layer to work with switch games, specially for the shaders that would need to be recompiled otherwise). Oh, and they backported the Ada Lovelace media block, so it can have AV1 encode.
But it doesn't end here. If all these aspects of the hardware weren't already enough, they even added a decompression block, like the ones we find on an Xbox and ps5.
Do you truly think it makes sense to have this hige jump in specs just to use as a Pro version? Come on, seriously.
And there's one more thing. This thing was designed to use a node that only this year became mainstream. Yes, the SoC was finalized in the end of 2022 (making a 2021 release impossible), which means they started working on it in 2019~2020, and we all know the node is the first thing you have to decide on.
So, you are telling me that the "cheap ass Nintendo" decided for an absolutely cutting edge node to release it at March 2023?
It's funny because everyone was saying Nintendo would use the 8nm Samsung node, because it's Nintendo... But at the same time some want to believe it was for a Pro model using cutting edge node (the same node that Nvidia used to first release their 40 series in 2022). And yes, T239 IS using Ada's node.
Like I said, it only takes a bit of knowledge to know that no company would make such an enormous jump in specs, completely changing the architecture, using a cutting edge node (when they simply don't do this, right?!), just to use it in a Pro model LMAO
And one last thing: the Nvidia hack, that gave us the T239 info, clearly had the SoC and the new API (NVN2) tied together. So, from the beginning, they were already working on an API (suggestively named NVN2...) which had that SoC as its hardware target.
What you described as 'literally' wasn’t literal at all.
Haint
Member
The Tegra X1 was an early 2015 design and wildly outdated by Switch's release, so any new SOC destined for a 2021 product was going to be a significant improvement by default. As T239 was a largely already existing design, it would have cost Nintendo MORE to design the more bespoke "Pro" SOC you're suggesting.
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Woopah
Member
They are not suggesting a Pro, they're saying the T239 doesn't make sense to be used in a Pro.
It wouldn't cost Nintendo more than the T239, because that is the T239.
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CS Lurker
Member
You are a bit confused here.
Everything I listed in my post IS exactly what the T239 actually is. And you are [ironically] absolutely right when you say (even though it wasn't your intention lol) that the SoC I described IS a bespoke SoC, and that it cost more money to design it.
When you said that the T239 was a "a largely already existing design", what did you mean? If you are thinking that it is basically a cut-down version of the Orin T234, you are completely wrong. The T239 was designed entirely from the ground up. Nvidia didn't have anything that Nintendo could use for a hybrid videogame. Unlike the TX1, the T239 was specifically made for Nintendo, and for Nintendo alone. It's a completely different design than the Orin T234, and it wouldn't exist at all if Nintendo didn't asked for it. The decompression engine itself didn't exist in any Orin SoC, for example. It's a block that only makes sense in a gaming machine.
I'll repeat that there wasn't any other SoC. Nintendo and Nvidia started working on it between 2019 and 2020, and the SoC was finalized in the end of 2022 (as we know thanks to many solid evidences). It wasn't made to be released in 2021 in a Pro model. That's just BS.
It's ridiculous to say that the T239 is outdated. It will offer an amazing performance for the size and weight of the Switch 2. You can say you don't like Nintendo's approach for size and weight, and that's fine. Switch 2 won't have a 50Wh+ battery in a thick case; it will keep the same 14mm of the current model.
Now, to imply it's outdated just because it won't meet your desired TDP is just silly.
When it's about Nintendo, people are never satisfied. For the last 2 years it was said the node was Samsung 8nm. When people find out it is actually using a [still] very good node (TSMC 4N), they will complain that Nintendo didn't choose to have a TDP of 40W in handheld, weighting 680g. Nintendo can never win for some people.
hououinkyouma00
Member
Yeah I don’t think Nintendo will ever win for some people unless they release a GC2 on par with current consoles which will never happen.
Nintendo hit it out of the park with the Switch especially in Japan. They basically own gaming in Japan now.
Also, despite all the people who will call their design outdated and underpowered they will continue to release some of the best games ever made. Whether you like Nintendo or not I think it’s impossible so say they don’t make amazing games even if they aren’t your style.
I’ll take a new Switch in a similar form factor as the current one every single day over the unwieldy bullshit that is the Steam Deck/ROG Ally and especially that monstrosity that is the Lenovo handheld
Haint
Member
Yes that's exactly what I meant, T239 is a cut down T234 with some automotive specific features removed and some gaming specific features added. Cutting down chips is easier and cheaper than commissioning Nvidia to design this hypothetical "Super Tegre X1" you're proposing was destined for a Switch Pro, which was the assumption my response was based on. Unless of course you're suggesting a Pro was never in any sort of planning or design phase, which simultaneously requires folks to accept that multiple high level insiders were all wrong spanning several years, and that the specs of Nintendo's next-gen console leaked like 4 or 5 years early...which is quite the position to take, and I don't think you'll find many out on that limb with you.
paolo11
Member
Is China the only factory doing Switch 2? What about Japan?
Aldric
Member
That's very easy to accept lmao.
Those "multiple high level insiders" (didn't know we had "levels" of insiders now, is it a bit like belt colors in martial arts?) genuinely thought that the OLED model was a Pro console and argued that it'd be revealed before E3 2021 so that third party studios could showcase their 4K Switch Pro exclusive games.
Don't know how people still fall for it but the quality of reporting from "insiders" has been total amateur hour for years.
Robb
Gold Member
China and Vietnam are the main countries Nintendo use for production iirc.
Aldric
Member
Vietnam also produces Switch 2. There's been a lot of shipping data uncovered on one of Resetera's offshoot forums btw, the last numbers seem to suggest that mass production has either started or is about to start:
This guy says that in September one of the factories in Vietnam received a shipment of 800000 t239 chips.
CS Lurker
Member
Why is it so hard for you to understand? I wasn't proposing what you are stating here LOL
I'm saying the T239 was NEVER meant to go inside a "switch pro". It's simple as that. They started designing the T239 in 2019~2020, and the SoC was finalized in the end of 2022. How many times I have to repeat it? You are dreaming with a Switch Pro using this SoC in 2021 when the SoC would only be ready to enter mass production in 2023.
You know what is funny? You said Nintendo is cheap because they went with the TX1 that was 2 years old, but somehow you fail to understand that Nintendo just planned to go with an SoC that will be ~2.5 years old when Switch 2 is out.
The only difference this time is that, like I said, the T239 was made specifically for Nintendo, while the TX1 was meant for tablets but it didn't pan out. Nvidia then tried their best to sell the SoC to Nintendo, so it wouldn't be a disaster (and Nintendo saved the Tegra division lol)
Why is Nintendo taking so long then to release this thing? It's because of the node.
It's not. The first and biggest difference between the T234 and the T239 IS THE NODE. That's why Nintendo asked Nvidia to design the SoC so ahead of the Switch 2's launch. They designed it using a cutting-edge node (for the time), and they did it at the same time they were designing their Ada Lovelace GPU's (which uses the same node, TSMC 4N).
But only this year the node became mainstream, which means we are already seeing smartphones costing even $200, equipped with SoC's made using TSMC's "4nm" node. Or isn't that what you would expect from Nintendo? Were you thinking they would go with TSMC 3nm? Or do you still believe they went with Samsung 8nm, which is the same node Orin T234 uses?
The hardest (and most expensive) part of designing a chip is exactly working towards the node you chose. If you have an SoC using SEC 8nm and you want to migrate it to TSMC 4N, even without changing anything, that's very expensive. You might not understand what this really means, but you simply need to redesign the SoC. Yes, it's like making everything from scratch, again, specially when you are doing this going from one library and IP to another (samsung -> TSMC). And boy, it takes time (and money). If you redesign an SoC to another node, then you need to go through all these steps again: ASR (Architecture and System Review), A0/B0 Tapeout, DV (Design Validation), PVR (Product Validation Review). It can easily take 2 years, just for changing the node.
So, this should be enough to understand that the T239 is a completely different SoC than the T234. But there are more differences! The T234 uses 3 clusters with 4 Cortex-A78AE each, while the T239 uses one single cluster with 8 A78C (these cores were designed focusing on gaming, and it's the only A78 core where you can have 8 of them in one single cluster, which is great for performance because it has lower latency between cores and cache access/utilization, while also consuming less power). Also, the T239 uses LPDDR5x rather than LPDDR5 like the T234, which will offer ~18GB/s more bandwidth. It means they needed to design a new memory controller, because LPDDR5x requires it. And now you are having to design a new memory controller for a new node, which isn't as simple as you may think.
Like Orin, the GPU is also kind of Ampere, but they backported some features from Ada (like the media block for AV1 encode, and it also supports FLCG (first-level clock gating), which Orin doesn't do, which is an optimization for power consumption - something that only Nintendo is interested in). Of course, the node is different from Ampere, and that alone makes all the difference, like I explained before. The Tensor Cores between Orin and T239 are completely different too, as T239 uses the TC from the desktop GPUs, and there are no RT cores for Orin, for obvious reasons (but T239 has 12 RT cores).
Anyway, I believe I have said enough. If you still think one is just a cut-down version of the other, well, so be it. I can't change someone else's bias.
T239 is gonna be fire for the TDP it will have. It doesn't matter when it was finalized, because they made it using a node that was cutting-edge at the time, so it could be in a console that would be released between March-May of the next year, costing $400 at most. A mainstream node for a mainstream device. The core count wouldn't have changed a bit if its design had started in 2022, because TSMC 3nm will continue to be expensive in 2025, so they would have ended up using the same node they actually chose lol
Even Valve said that there's no node available right now that would offer a substantial jump, so they could release a SD2. And mind you that steam deck is using an older node than Switch 2 (TSMC 6N (optimized 7nm) on SD versus TSMC 4N (optimized 5nm) on Switch 2), and even then they say there's no node available that could offer a meaningful jump in performance, and that's absolutely true. Again: the T239 is gonna be fire for the TDP it will have. It doesn't mean at all it's outdated just because they won't go for 1 hour of battery life while drawing 60Wh. They will offer a console that is gonna have a bigger screen (8"), which means bigger size (but same thickness) while keeping the weight in the 400-gram range. So it's not a matter of the technology used, or when the SoC's design was finished, but mainly the choices they went for their product (size, weight, and battery life). Of course, when docked the clock could go as high as ~1.3GHz, which would offer an amazing performance for the form factor.
But that's it for me, I'm done.
edit: grammar
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MR ARCADE FOREVER
Member
Tech demo? What year is it?
James Sawyer Ford
Gold Member
Nintendo charges for everything
kevboard
Member
if your biggest new selling point is performance and new technology... I think a tech demo is likely.
they have DLSS, they have Raytracing, and a GPU that is at least 7~8x more powerful. that should be easy to use in a demo. maybe use one of their actual games as a tech demo? Metroid probably being cross gen would be a prime (hehehe) candidate. especially with how brilliant Retro Studio's tech is.
kevboard
Member
sure but this is a unique situation they have never been in. and there is an established norm now of cross gen updates... also their games barely fall in price, and are longtime sellers. so I don't even think they need to. these games will sell new copies either way.